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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/12th Politburo of the Communist Party of Vietnam/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC) [1].[reply]

12th Politburo of the Communist Party of Vietnam edit

12th Politburo of the Communist Party of Vietnam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): TheUzbek (talk) 14:28, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because Vietnamese politics is exciting! Hopefully, you find this list as exciting as I do. I nominated this list by happenstance—I was planning to start work on the 20th Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party—but I saw that Wikipedia was missing some very basic articles on the CPV. I didn't create this article, but I modelled it on another FL. I, however, made some changes of my own to improve referencing and style.

I know that communist politics, and Vietnamese politics more generally, is not the sexiest topic in the world, but I hope some of you will take your time to review it. TheUzbek (talk) 14:28, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Airship edit

I'll give this a shot. I don't know Vietnamese, so my comments will naturally focus on the prose (which is where they tend to go anyway).

  • The lead is very lengthy: five pretty massive paragraphs. Per MOS:LEAD, it shouldn't be more than four unless the article is that unsummarisable.
  • What this does, in effect, is make the lead unengaging and difficult to follow, especially for those unfamiliar with the topic.
  • The fourth paragraph seems generally unconcerned with the article subject, and would be more suited for Politics of Vietnam or something.
    • Removed, I agree with you!
  • You should also try to streamline the prose better. Take the second paragraph, for example. The ending sentences of "This anti-corruption campaign ... Or, as former United States diplomat ..." would be better served coming after the first two sentences outline the anti-corruption campaign.
    • Fixed
  • On the note of streamlining, "anti-corruption" is written five times in one paragraph.
    • Fixed

Other comments:

  • Is the length column of the meetings section really necessary? I feel that it's fairly self-explanatory.
    • I would say yes, some people might want to sort according to length of meetings.. The other columns don't allow for that.
  • I find the linking of the items in the Type section somewhat unnecessary. It would be better if there was a glossary above or below the list explaining what each type actually meant, rather than linking to generic Regulation or Decision-making articles.
    • I don't have any sources that explain what these terms mean to the CPV so that I'm unable to do sadly.

I hope you find my comments useful, TheUzbek. You might want to take a look at my current FLC nomination—any comments at all would be very welcome. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I want to try cutting the lead down, but I'm quite busy at the moment. If I haven't responded by Sunday 26th, ping me. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:38, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
THe problem with this list is two-fold. First, Vietnam and its Communist Party are not transparent about the work of the Politburo. Therefore this article has to be a little bit of both: during its electoral term - what it did - and its composition - who are members. I'm currently working (here) on the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam. I can write a text - an article on that topic - since the CPV is at the very least way more transparent on the CPVCC's meetings.. The plan then is to create two to three separate articles on the following: Apparatus of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam, Members of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam and Alternates of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam (or just Composition of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam).
One cannot to that with the Politburo or its Secretariat or the Central Military Commission... But maybe we can do it with the CIC... --TheUzbek (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Communist Party of Vietnam should be linked, and shouldn't be used in acronym form immediately
    • Fixed
  • "the Politburo is between the party congresses convocations and the Central Committee's plenary sessions, the highest decision-making institution in the CPV and Vietnam." what does "in between" mean?
    • Fixed -- is it understandable now?
  • "The total number of meetings the 12th Politburo convened has not been publicly disclosed to the media. Still, some have been publicly reported and are listed below (see "Meetings" section)." Are these sentences necessary?
    • I would say yes... It showcases the lack of transparency and our lack of knowledge on Vietnamese politics. Its as if the United States Federal Government didn't disclose the number of cabinet meetings or what the cabinet discussed.
  • "The 12th National Congress adopted a resolution ..." does this need to be a lengthy quote, or can it be removed/paraphrased?
    • Fixed
  • "The 5th Plenary Session ... on 22 January 2018" can be one sentence at most. How about "Đinh La Thăng was removed from the Politburo in May 2017 when the 12th Central Inspection Commission started investigating him for mismanaging the state-owned enterprise PetroVietnam, resulting in a loss of 800 billion Vietnamese dong; he was arrested in December 2017 and sentenced to thirteen years in prison in January 2018."
    • Fixed
  • Is it politburo or Politburo?
    • Fixed
  • "Institutionally, the campaign was strengthened by ... cases drawing public attention". are two long quotes really needed? Why not "In tandem with the anti-corruption drive, Prime Minister Nguyễn Xuân Phúc began to streamline the government by cutting the number of deputy prime ministers from five to four and ministries from 26 to 22; in addition, six Politburo members were appointed to serve in the Central Steering Committee on Anti-corruption, the Central Inspection Commission was given auditing and supervisory powers, and seven teams were set up to detect and investigate public corruption cases."
    • Fixed, but not as suggested.. What do you think of the present sentence?
  • Is the David Brown quote necessary?
    • Fixed, removed.
  • I got lost in the third paragraph. I don't get why regulation 90-QĐ/TW is important, and it seems to contradict itself: "only Trọng and Đinh Thế Huynh did not meet the criteria to be elected General Secretary ... Nguyễn Phú Trọng was indeed elected for a third term".
    • Fixed, rewrote and shortened quote. More understandable now?

I'll leave those here for your inspection. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:54, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: I've responded to you're comments. --TheUzbek (talk) 13:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: So?? --TheUzbek (talk) 07:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB) edit

  • Tables need column scopes for all column header cells, which in combination with row scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Column scopes can be added by adding !scope=col to each header cell, e.g. ! Title becomes !scope=col | Title. If the cell spans multiple columns with a colspan, then use !scope=colgroup instead. You have this for some columns (e.g. the first table) but not all.
  • Tables need row scopes on the "primary" column for each row, which in combination with column scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Row scopes can be added by adding !scope=row to each primary cell, e.g. | 01-CT/TW becomes !scope=row | 01-CT/TW. If the cell spans multiple rows with a rowspan, then use !scope=rowgroup instead.
  • Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. I don't return to these reviews until the nomination is ready to close, so ping me if you have any questions. --PresN 22:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "the Politburo is in between convocations of the Party's National Congress and the Central Committee's plenary sessions, the highest decision-making institution in the CPV and Vietnam". I do not understand this. How can a body be between meetings?
    • Better? Some institutions are permanent. For instance, the 117th United States Congress had a 1st Session that lasted from January 3, 2021 to January 3, 2022. The Politburo only convenes for a couple of days a month. In between those meetings there is no Politburo activity as such. They implement the decisions made by the previous Politburo, Central Committee or National Congress meeting or respond to day-to-day issues. Understandable?
  • "The Politburo is not a permanent institution". What does this mean? The 12th obviously is not, but the Politburo as an institution appears to be permanent.
    • Better now? Same as above.
  • I am not clear what a session means in the American context - let alonr the Vietnamese one - and I think the term is better avoided. "The Politburo is not in permanent session; it instead convenes meetings several times a month to discuss and decide upon significant policies." This could be changed to "The Politburo convenes meetings several times a month to discuss and decide upon significant policies." Dudley Miles (talk) 19:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done
  • "800 billion Vietnamese dongs". This means nothing to a reader who does not know the value of a dong. An approximate conversion to dollars would be helpful.
    • I'm not American and I would be just as confused if it was in an American currency. So what to do?
  • I am not American either but like the great majority of English-speaking people I have an idea of the value of a dollar and none of a dong. I think an approximate conversion would help the reader. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done
  • It is usual to keep the figure in the local currency and add the dollar figure in brackets. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • "limits general secretaries to serve a maximum of five-year terms," Presumbly two terms, but you should say so.
    • Done
  • This paragraph is confusing due to the irrelevant details. I would delete "The Politburo approved regulation 90-QĐ/TW on 4 August 2017 to further institutionalise the transfer of power. To be appointed General Secretary, one needs to be an incumbent member of the Politburo who has served at least one full electoral term, the regulation states. Furthermore, it tasks the sitting CPV General Secretary to prepare their successor for office. Of the 17 members of the 12th Politburo, only Trọng and Đinh Thế Huynh did not meet the criteria to be elected General Secretary by the 13th Central Committee.[10]" None of this is irrelevant to the consolidation of Trong's power, which is the subject of the paragraph.
    • Done
  • Also spell out when Trọng first became General Secretary.
    • Done
  • It would be helpful to link cities such as Đà Nẵng city and provinces.
    • Done
  • Does each Politburo last for five years? If so, you should say so.
    • Done
Dudley Miles (talk) 12:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • One further point is that I am not clear what the powers of the Politburo are? None of the types are shown as laws. Which body or bodies can pass laws? This should be clarified. Dudley Miles (talk)
    • Done, added the following sentence: "The Politburo convenes meetings several times a month to discuss and decide upon significant policies, which are then implemented by the relevant state or party bodies, such as the National Assembly of Vietnam if the policy concerns law-making, or the Party's Central Organisation Commission if it concerns cadre policy."

@Dudley Miles: First, thank you very much for bothering to review this list! I had entirely forgotten that I had nominated it since no one had :P

Secondly, I hope I satisfactorily responded to your comments. --TheUzbek (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles: --TheUzbek (talk) 11:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. One other minor point is that I do not see any reason for "Political Bureau of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam" in the first line to be in italics. See also the comment above on currency. Otherwise, the article looks fine. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles: Done, and thank you for reviewing the article. Have a nice day! --TheUzbek (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: Will this ever be approved or is that an impossibility since @AirshipJungleman29: refuses to continue his review of the article? --TheUzbek (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I went through and made some edits myself as well as a source review; I'm going to go ahead and promote. I do think, as you mention above, that compared to lists for other countries there's a bit of an issue with this list having to handle both "who was in the 12th Politburo" and "what did it do", which makes it text-heavy. I would recommend trying to separate those out into different lists/articles in the future, to allow lists like this to focus on one subject. --PresN 14:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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