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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Zombie Nightmare/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 17 July 2021 [1].

Zombie Nightmare edit

Nominator(s): GamerPro64 03:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a voodoo priestess resurrecting a baseball player to get revenge on the people who ran him over. Set in Canada. Starring Adam West.

This Canadian jaunt is yet another article about a film that ended up on Mystery Science Theater 3000 and personally surprised me with how much information I was able to find about this. But I am prepared for the criticism this nomination might bring. But I do think this has what it takes to become a Featured Article. GamerPro64 03:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Comments from JM edit

This looks fun!

  • "and was originally intended to be a black-centric film before changing the characters to have whiter names to appease investors" How about "The film was originally written to start mostly black actors [if that's what is being claimed] but, at the request of investors, the characters' names were changed to more typically white names, and white actors were hired." Or something. I find the current wording a bit off.
    • Fair assessment. I'll use that instead. GamerPro64 01:58, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "mother Louise mourns for him" Do you mourn for someone, or just mourn them?
    • I changed it to "mourns over him". GamerPro64 01:58, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Blood Sisters worth a link? Don't be scared of redlinks! (Ditto the bands mentioned in the soundtrack section.)
    • Not really on the movie. But the bands I can wiki-link.
  • "for eating all the craft services" What does this mean?
    • It means he ate all the food meant for the cast and crew. GamerPro64 01:58, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm getting a few hits on Google Books/Google Scholar, but nothing (I don't think) that absolutely has to go in. And nothing of any interest showing up on Netflix. Maybe there'd be more sources buried deep in forgotten magazines, but I don't know how much there is written about this one!

Hope that's helpful. Josh Milburn (talk) 11:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Andrzejbanas edit

  • "Zombie Nightmare was a commercial success despite negative reviews". Probably shouldn't say "despite" here, as that implies that the financial success of the film defies any negative critical reaction. I may note too that despite comparisons between budget and gross, we don't have any statment that says it was a financial success as budget may be the cost of the film, it does not take into consideration how much other factors of it may have caused. So you might just want to state something a bit more specific and less interpretive like "The film grossed a total of ____ againa a ____ budget" and let users piece what that means themselves.
    • Changed.
  • Similar to the above, where its stated "Wrestler Superstar Billy Graham was originally cast to play Tony's father. However, on the day he arrived in Montreal, no one came to pick him up at the airport and Graham left after waiting ten hours. Fasano took up the role." You can probably drop the "However" as its a bit jarring to read a statement, assume its true then read a "however" which sort of puts into the readers mind what's happening was not true at all.
  • The music section in the article is so small that I would not give it its own headline.
  • The Deep Red Magazine link goes to FantaCo Enterprises, but there is no information on the magazine here, so i would remove the link.
  • I'd try to split the contemporary reviews between the retrospective ones (i.e: the initial release give or take a year over the retrospective ones). Otherwise its not clear how the film was received on its release compared to later reception.
  • The Kerrang" article doesn't state "Best" it just says "13 Kickass Horror Soundtracks To Amplify Your Halloween". Kerrang! is an ok source for things but this is a cheap listicle that doesn't really provide much critical commentary and just sort of arbitrarily lists halloween playlists for people. It might be better to get the more critical meat of the article like how it says the soundtrack is better than the film itself.
  • The DVDTalk article does not state that the DVD was released in 2010, that's just when the review is posted.
  • A brief description of what the Turkey Day marathon would be helpful otherwise i don't know what the film screening on that session has in any context.
    • Just mentioned that its an MST3K marathon. GamerPro64 01:58, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bloody Digusting film should specify the genre your mentioning (i.e: it's talking about rock-music themed horror films, not just zombie films as the identified genre in the lead.

That's all for now! Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:39, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey hey, sorry for the slow response.
  • The lead should cover some information about the production. I know there isn't much, but even the basics on how it was filmed in Canada, some casting, etc. Whatever you feel is important as the lead should cover the major parts of the article, and one of the major parts is the production.
    • Added some more information in lead. GamerPro64 17:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can remove the red links to bands that probably will not be getting any wiki articles any time soon.
    • Kind of goes opposite of what J Milburn said. GamerPro64 17:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This will probably sound picky, but my own pet peeve is assuming an all encompassing reception to a film from the few we've gathered. There is no ratio that collects whether it was recieved poorly or not (i.e: no metacritic / rotten tomatoes or historian covering these bits and pieces). So I don't really like say things like "The film received negative reviews from contemporary and retrospective yadda yadda yadda". I'd remove it unless you have a source with suggests the general reception. (For the record, I don't doubt it recieved bad reviews, but we should have something that backs up that statement other than our own original research).
  • The part of the Voodoo in Film book probably should focus on the criticism of the film rather than how it uses voodoo in context as that seems to be a pretty minor element that's not really expanded on here.
Other than that, I don't have much more to add. once these things are addressed i can look it over one more time. Otherwise, i'd say it's good. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, I give my support for FA. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Parsecboy edit

  • What variant of English is being used? I'd assume Canadian, but I see a "centers" - I'm not an expert on Canadian English, but I think they use the same "-re" spelling as British English
  • "the production crew, believing him" - the gerund doesn't sound quite right to me; "the production crew, who believed him" matches the tense of the rest of the sentence
  • "that set an up old, tired plot" - the "up" is out of order
  • I'm not an expert on film articles by any stretch of the imagination, but do we not need citations for members of the cast not mentioned elsewhere in the article?
    • I think it varies. GamerPro64 17:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suppose the point could be made that it's functionally the same as the plot summary - the credits in the movie itself cover it. Parsecboy (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The film grossed C$1.5M by 1990 - any idea on sales of the DVD? I'm guessing not, but figured I'd ask.
    • I did not find any results on sales on DVDs. GamerPro64 17:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a moment to spare, I also have a FAC that could use a review from someone less familiar with the topic. Thanks. Parsecboy (talk) 22:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47 edit

I have actually not seen this film or the MST3K episode about it so hopefully, I will be able to offer a different perspective. My comments are below:

  • I do not think "Canadian" needs to be linked in the lead. I see where you were going with the Cinema of Canada link, but I think it is unnecessary as I do not believe any other film FA links nationality in this way.
  • In the lead, I would link "Haitian voodoo" to the Haitian Vodou article. I would also link "priestess" to be consistent with the link in the plot summary.
  • I have two comments for this part, The film was shot in the suburbs of Montreal, Canada, the film was originally written to start mostly black actors but. I believe the comma after Canada is supposed to be a period as these seem like two separate sentences. I would also avoid having two separate sentences begin with "The film".
  • For this part in the plot summary, Now a voodoo priestess, I would clarify that it is Haitian Voodoo as without that, it looks like it could be referring to other voodoo topics.
  • I would be consistent with using either a character's first or last name in the plot summary after their first mention. For instance, you use Tony and Churchman. Since a good portion of these characters do not have last names, I would go by first names.
  • In the "Cast" list, is there a reason Captain is not fully spelled out? Was it done that way in the film credits?
    • He was just credited as Churchman. GamerPro64 18:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • The current wording should be fine then. Thank you for the explanation. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Adam West image, I would revise the caption to include the year that it was taken.
  • For this part, Wanting to direct a horror film, Jack Bravman, I think it may be worthwhile to add a link for horror film.
  • For the first sentence of the "Production" section, I would avoid repeating "horror film" twice.
  • Do we know what budget the original script received from investors (or did they just flat-out refuse to do the film with black characters and actors)?
    • They flat out refused by the looks of it. GamerPro64 18:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • That was the impression that I got while reading the article, but I just wanted to double-check with you. Thank you for the explanation. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a question about this part, Adam West, who portrayed Batman in the 1960s television series. How is West's work as Batman relevant to this article or to the film? I understand that West is best known for his performance as Batman, but it seems rather tangential to me.
  • The "Critical reception" sub-section seems rather short, but I am assuming this means that this film just did not receive a lot of reviews. That would not be surprisingly given the low budget, its direct-to-video status, and its general obscurity, but I just wanted to confirm this with you.
    • I tried by best and this was the most I could find. GamerPro64 18:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • You did a good job with this part. I just wanted to double-check with you about it. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were there any reviews of the MST3K episode about this film?
    • Not really. GamerPro64 18:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's what I had assumed from reading the article, but I just wanted to double-check about it. Apologies for these clarification questions. I do not really see this MST3K episode discussed as much as other ones so this is not particularly surprising to me. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you checked out the following source, Historicising Racialised Objects of Horror: From the Black Renaissance Villain to the Voodoo Doer? It is behind a paywall so I cannot say for sure if it has anything, but it may be useful.
    • This is what the piece had to say about the movie: "Ratgirl thus sees a missed opportunity in both these films for the conventional early 20th century script and the type to be rewritten and hence the subgenre of voodoo horror and the black stereotype to be changed from within in the 1980s. Could this have happened in the 1980s? Are there examples of this type of reworking of the subgenre and the type? In fact, there are. In Jack Bravman’s 1986 film Zombie Nightmare there is a voodoo priest who resurrects the character Jon Mikl Lohr (Tony Washington) who has been run over by white teenagers. Jon is given a new lease on life as a zombie and the power to hunt and kill those who have killed him. It is still a horror movie and the ethics are debatable but the point here is that the voodoo priest is not the villain of the piece but instead provides a means of retribution for the victim."
    • "Yet, a critical examination quickly reveals that Manuska Rigaud (Molly Mokembe) is not a priest but a priestess. It is the female voodoo doer who has been changed in Zombie Nightmare rather than the male type." GamerPro64 00:41, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is another potential useful source, The Migrant Monsters of Multiculturalism in Andrew Currie’s Fido. It is behind a paywall, but it has more information about the original script. It talks about how the film was originally "a retribution narrative in which a black teenager returns from the dead to exact revenge on the privileged white hoodlums responsible for his death". It uses the 2004 Vatnsdal citation that is already used in the article so maybe that information is also in there? I think this information is relevant as it adds more background on the original intention for the film.
    • Let me try to get access to these two as I never seen these sources before. GamerPro64 18:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Let me know how it goes. I am uncertain about the first one, but from my very (and I mean very) limited preview, it seemed somewhat promising. I think the second one would be helpful as it provides a little more context on the original vision of the film. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is what this source says about the movie: "In addition, Zombie Nightmare (1986) was originally written as a retribution narrative in which a black teenager returns from the dead to exact revenge on the privileged white hoodlums responsible for his death (Vatnsdal, 2004)." GamerPro64 00:42, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would encourage you to archive your web citations (like citation 17) to avoid any future issues.
  • I would clarify in the ProQuest citations that a subscription is needed to access the information.
  • Citation 17 has Allmovie when it should be AllMovie.
  • Citation 28 has Popmatters when it should be PopMatters.
  • Citation 4 has Newspapes.com when it should be Newspapers.com.
  • Why is Den of Geek not linked in Citation 26? I have the same question for Montreal Gazette in Citation 16 and Newspapers.com in Citations 5 and 24.
  • Why do you not include a link for the Newspapers.com citations? I would think it would benefit the reader more to include a link (or ideally a clipping) so they can verify the information for themselves or read the original source.

Once everything is addressed, I will read through the article again just to make sure I can do a thorough review. I hope you have a wonderful start to your week. Aoba47 (talk) 01:56, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the responses so far. I will look through the article again sometime this weekend. Let me know how things go with the two sources I recommended above. Have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted the pieces with their Zombie Nightmare quotes up top. I honestly dont think they would add much to the article. GamerPro64 00:41, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the quotes. The first source is interesting, but not necessary for the article. I'd still add information from the second source. The "retribution narrative" aspect provides more context for the original script because it shows the initial concept had a more direct message on race and this informs the original casting choices. I think without this, readers might think Fasano just wanted to cast black actors and that it did not have a significant connection with the story. Aoba47 (talk) 05:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added that part into the production section. GamerPro64 01:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your patience with my review. Everything looks good now so I support the FAC for promotion based on the prose. Great work with this. Aoba47 (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Shooterwalker edit

Looking mostly at the prose. It's in pretty good shape and only needs a few tweaks.

  • The opening sentence is a little long and might be worth splitting, but I would defer to other editors if no one else has raised any issues.
  • "directed a majority" -> "directed the majority"
  • "and the production crew, believed him" -> "and the production crew, who believed him"
  • Drop the "during a Thanksgiving marathon hosted by West" for succinctness. (Or perhaps there's a way to work it in better: "Adam West hosted an episode of Mystery Science Theatre ...")
  • "Years later, after disrupting an attempted robbery at a grocery store, William's son Tony, now a baseball player, is struck and killed by a car full of teenagers: Bob, Amy, Jim, Peter, and Susie." -> "Years later, William's son Tony grows up to also become a baseball player. After Tony disrupts an attempted robbery at a grocery store, he is struck and killed by a car full of teenagers: Bob, Amy, Jim, Peter, and Susie." (burying the subject "Tony" makes this sentence hard to understand)
  • "Sending Sorrell home to rest, Churchman contacts Jim's father Fred and informs him of Molly's involvement in Jim's death, then tells him to come to the police station. Fred tries to do so but encounters Tony outside his house and is killed." -> "After sending Sorrell home to rest, Churchman calls Jim's father Fred and informs him of Molly's involvement in Jim's death. Fred tries to meet Churchman at the police station, but is killed by Tony on his way."
  • "Knowing that they will be targeted next," --> "Believing that they will be targeted next,"
  • "After destroying the zombie he shoots and kills Molly while she casts a spell. Before he is able to shoot Sorrell for being a witness, a second zombie rises out of a nearby grave and drags Churchman into the ground while Churchman pleads for Sorrell to kill him." -> "Molly tries to cast a spell, but is shot and killed by Churchman, who then turns to kill Sorrell as the only surviving witness. However, a second zombie rises out of a nearby grave and drags Churchman into the ground while Churchman pleads for Sorrell to kill him."
  • "Wanting to direct a horror film, Jack Bravman, who had worked in the adult entertainment industry, contacted John Fasano after hearing about his work on Blood Sisters." -> "Director Jack Bravman wanted to transition from adult films to horror, and contacted John Fasano after hearing about his work on Blood Sisters."
  • "wrote up the white sounding names" --> "typed the white-sounding names onto a page"
  • "which caused filming to move to" --> "so the filming moved to"
  • "; a childhood friend of Fasano, Frank Dietz, played fellow cop Frank Sorrell" -> "Fellow cop Frank Sorrell was played by Frank Dietz, a childhood friend of Fasano."
  • "Worldwide, the film grossed C$1.5 million" -> "the film grossed C$1.5 million worldwide" or "the film grossed C$1.5 million across all [markets/territories]"
  • "Fangoria was positive on" -> "Fangoria had praise for"
  • "While recommending the movie for the soundtrack," -> "However," (you already mention praise for the soundtrack)
  • "the film was horrible but was so "deliciously goofy"" -- drop the second "was"
  • There might be some undue weight on the Mystery Science Theatre section. It could probably be trimmed down to one paragraph. At a minimum, I'd cut the list of titles in the box set, which seem to be basically unrelated.

I think the article is close overall, without taking a closer look at the sources or citations. Let's see where we stand after the suggested revisions. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • It reads well now and I can support this based on the prose. If you have time, I could also use an FA review. Good job and happy editing! Shooterwalker (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed.

Passed. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was originally written to start mostly black actors but, at the request of investors, the characters' names were changed to more typically white names, and white actors were hired" - this is only partly supported by the text, is there a source that provides this detail?
    • I removed the last bit due to how its not accurate due to Tia Carrere being Asian. GamerPro64 19:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • How are you ordering Bibliography?
    • Fixed it to alphabetical order. GamerPro64 19:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes DVD Verdict a high-quality reliable source? Mandatory? Midnight Marquee Press?
    • I assume DVD Verdict is like DVD Talk for being a reliable source, since I have used the latter in other articles. Mandatory is part of the Mandatory company. And Midnight Marquee Press seems to have books that have been used as sources for other articles too. GamerPro64 19:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Being used in other articles doesn't automatically make a source high-quality; see here for some guidance. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well I cant really find anything that could support that its a high-quality reliable source. The book itself is just used for the critical reception section. GamerPro64 02:42, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi GamerPro64, I was about to ping Nikkimaria to see if all of her concerns had been addressed, but it is unlikely that she is going to sign off on a source review when the nominator admits that a source doesn't meet one of the FAC criterion - "claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources". Can I suggest that you resolve the DVD Verdict issue and ping her yourself? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I removed the DVD Verdict source and replaced it with Fangoria for another piece of information. GamerPro64 20:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: GamerPro64 19:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about Midnight Marquee? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:54, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Removed that too. GamerPro64 00:05, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What source now supports runtime? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
AllMovie. GamerPro64 02:10, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you want a response (you do) you will need to ping. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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