Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Old Church of St Nidan, Llanidan/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Old Church of St Nidan, Llanidan

Featured article candidates/Old Church of St Nidan, Llanidan/archive1

Nominator(s): Bencherlite ^Talk 14:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An article about a church that was mostly demolished in 1844 when a new church in a "debased barbarous style" was built to replace it. (Progress, eh?) Despite this - or perhaps because of this - I found a surprising amount to write about it. Eric Corbett (talk · contribs) has given it a copyedit and Tim riley (talk · contribs) made some useful comments at its peer review. I think it's close enough to FA standards to make it worth having a go for the star. Thanks in anticipation for your comments. Bencherlite ^Talk 14:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – As mentioned above, I peer reviewed this article. It seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. It is concise, but seems to contain all the relevant facts; it is well illustrated and properly referenced; and I found it a delight to read. A small gem! Tim riley (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Tim, for your kind words and your earlier help. Bencherlite ^Talk 14:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ from Jim excellent article, just a couple of quibbles before I support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A sandstone chest containing bone fragments, possibly relics of a saint...The reliquary—Since reliquary isn't linked or glossed, I'm not sure that it's clear that the chest and the reliquary are one and the same
Ref 7 is dead
People associated with St Nidan's—I don't think it's MoS to have the article's subject in a heading
3 feet (0.9 m) ... 2 feet 10 inches (1 m) —????
Two verses from Psalm 84 (in Welsh) — could you put the original Welsh in a footnote?

Changed "reliquary" to "chest" for clarity.
Hmm, odd for a BBC link to go dead like that. It might be a temporary thing (I hope not, as I use that link in lots of articles!) but I've added an archiveurl parameter as backup.
I think that only applies if the full article title is repeated, but I've changed it anyway.
(grin/grimace) fixed.
Neither source gives the Welsh, alas.

Thanks for your comments, Jim. Bencherlite ^Talk 10:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No further comments, changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Nicely written, I made a couple of small tweaks, hope you like them, if not tis a wiki...... I was wondering about the choice of images and their positioning. In particular you mention the stoup, the bellcote and the heads over the North door and we have photos of them available. Perhaps this article would benefit from the sort of mini galleries used in Inner German Border. Ϣere SpielChequers 06:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tweaks and the support. I'll have a think about the mini-gallery idea and see how it looks, although there isn't as much text to play around with as in the IGB article and I don't want to swamp the article with pictures. Bencherlite ^Talk 10:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK copyright-wise (own work, Geograph, PD-age). Sources and authors provided. Tweaked a few summaries and captions. GermanJoe (talk) 08:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the check and the tweaks. Bencherlite ^Talk 10:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ from Gerda

I am very impressed by the thorough article on a "melancholy fate". Minor remarks:

As long as a link is read, I would not repeat it in the lead.
Foundation ...: It may be just my lack of English, but the sentence starting "As a result, writes the historian Antony Carr" is so long and complex that had to start over, and still am not sure I understood.
I suggest to link "medieval", - yes, you and I know ...
Replacement ... "St Nidan's Church, Llanidan", - I would say "The new St Nidan's Church". If left unchanged, a comma please.
I smiled reading "Parish worship transferred to the new church, along with some of the fittings.", placing worship and fittings on one level.
I didn't know "mortuary" but should have concluded.
Psalm 84 is (unfortunately) not very informative. What do you think about quoting the source Psalms 84? (Its verse 10.)
I would take the phrase "homing stone" to the lead.

Agree: should not be missed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, Gerda, and glad you like it.

Not sure what you mean by this one - do you mean "link is red" instead? If so, I don't think there's a rule against having redlinks in a lead - and the house is a listed building with a long history, so it passes WP:GNG and WP:REDLINK and someone (perhaps even me!) will write about it eventually.

Not by any rules, I try to avoid to have the same red link twice. Best help: create at least a stub ;)

Split into two sentences.
Good point, already linked to medieval architecture in the infobox so I've repeated this link in the lead and the body
Addressed in a slightly different way ([[St Nidan's Church, Llanidan|A new church]], also dedicated to St Nidan, was built...)
Glad you like that. A bit of zeugma never hurt anyone, did it?!
Link added to mortuary
Not sure what you mean here - I already quote that verse. I'm not particularly sure that the article would be improved by telling readers that the English translation of the original Welsh comes from a particular version of the Bible. If you mean something different, please say so.
Hmmm... both of the two sentences about the stone in the lead already say that it comes back, so to say so a third time would I think be excessive in the lead.

Hope this helps keep you happy, Gerda. Vielen Dank! Bencherlite ^Talk 14:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking my thoughts, and for good replies. Let me not speak here about my happiness, I keep dreaming ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note for delegates: I had a source spotcheck at my last FAC, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Boden Professor of Sanskrit election, 1860/archive1. Bencherlite ^Talk 10:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Infobox says church is 78 ft, text says aisles alone were 78 ft - which is correct?
"Biblical texts that once decorated the internal walls" - source? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Church was 78 feet pre-demolition, so infobox was right (good spot); article reworded.
I'd reworded that bit in response to an earlier comment and forgot to repeat the references...

Thanks, NM. Bencherlite ^Talk 11:05, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by the Dr

Some inconsistencies 12th century and 14th century vs 13th-century and 15th-century in the lead. Generally you appear to use the hyphen, which I believed is preferred.
The hyphen is only used when the century is being used as an adjective, as in "13th-century font". Eric Corbett 20:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see, seems a bit unnecessary to me but I'm sure it's conventional.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:38, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd place "The authors of a 2009 guide to the buildings of north-west Wales record the tradition that a church was first established at this site in 616.[5]" in a new paragraph, seems unrelated to location which you document before it.

"The churchyard is kept locked, but the church and the gardens of Plas Llanidan are occasionally opened to the public." Why occasionally? Seems a bit vague, surely there's a reason why it opens, like for fêtes or festivals or something or by request..

The southern aisle, he said, had had “a small circular headed window, filled up from a pointed one" and “a small circular headed window, filled up from a pointed one" For some reason you use an old-fashioned apostrophe to start these quotes rather than " which is used to end the quote and in other quotes.

"The 15th-century roof has exposed woodwork". What is meant by "exposed woodwork" on a roof? Not sure what you mean. Roof beams showing through or something? Can you elaborate a little?

"Most of the fittings now in St Nidan's are not original, and come from other churches in north-west Wales; the granite altar is modern." Do you have knowledge of some of the churches materials were taken from? I'd be interested to know what was from where if you have the information.

"St Nidan's has national recognition and statutory protection from alteration as it is a Grade II* listed building, the second-highest of the three grades of listing, designating "particularly important buildings of more than special interest" Seems a little superfluous, I'd simply say St Nidan's became a Grade II* listed building on 30 January 1968, listed for the reason that it is "a good example of a simple medieval rural church, enriched by 15th-century additions."... For people who are very familiar with listed buildings like myself I sort of find it rather obvious, I think if anybody who doesn't know really wants to know what Grade II* is they can click on the article. I'm not sure you'll agree but just a suggestion. For the sake of a general audience, perhaps you're right to fully elaborate on it, but imagine reading lot of church articles and reading the same thing!...

Delink Angharad Llwyd in the Pre-demolition comments section unless there is a specific reason why it is linked twice within the body of the article.

Ref 26 "Barnes, David (2005). The companion guide to Wales. Companion Guides. p. 331. ISBN 1-900639-43-2." Shouldn't the book title be capitalized?

♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Eric re the "-century" issue.
Disagree, a new paragraph here seems unnecessary to me, since we're still dealing with location of the church.
I don't know why the owners only open the church occasionally, and none of my sources say. Probably they like the peace and quiet of not having their house and garden invaded by tourists...
Fixed one instance, probably a word-processing glitch; did you think that there were two? (You give the same quote twice)
Re "exposed woodwork", I've had this discussion with Eric in the past e.g. Talk:St Beuno's Church, Trefdraeth/GA1 about how to say this in another way. I hope my revised wording keeps both of you happy (and I've also mentioned the exposed woodwork in a photo caption for good measure)
The sources don't say, or I would have added it in...
As you've guessed, I'd rather keep a brief explanation of what a Grade II* listed building means, because not everyone is as familiar as you with the concept. In fact, this wording has developed over time as other reviewers (for GA) of other articles in the series have asked for more explanation than just "St Z's is a Grade II listed building because [reason]"
Done
Done

Thanks for your further comments (and for the help you gave as the GA reviewer long ago...) Bencherlite ^Talk 10:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Excellent job, great to see so much for such a place.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 04:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.