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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Manners (cricketer)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 March 2023 [1].

John Manners (cricketer) edit

Nominator(s): StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I got this article to GA class in April 2020 and decided, with some time on my hands in the next few months, to see if it could reach FA status. I have previously listed this for a peer review, but had no input, but I did list it on the cricket project talk page for feedback, which was received and actioned. John Manners was a Royal Navy officer and first-class cricketer, most notable for being the oldest living first-class cricketer ever, until his death in 2020 aged 105. All told, his life was a fascinating one! Looking forward to hearing what comments people have. StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

Hi StickyWicket, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Fixed - I have removed the px size in the infobox StickyWicket (talk) 09:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest adding alt text
    • Added alt text to the three pictures in the main body of text StickyWicket (talk) 09:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Lt_Cdr_John_Errol_Manners.png needs a more expansive FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Chris edit

  • "With his first-class career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" - maybe just say "With his career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" to avoid repetition?
    • Done. First mention of "first-class" in that sentence removed. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after securing a shore based position" => "after securing a shore-based position"
  • "thus narrowly falling short of becoming the first Hampshire batsman to make a century on their first-class debut" - was the miss really "narrow"? It's not like he scored 98 or 99.....
  • "Prior to the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Germany in September 1939, Manners had been saving his leave in order to have a full summer playing county cricket in 1940, but the subsequent declaration would mean it would be more than ten years before he played first-class cricket again" - this contradicts the lead, which says he played first class cricket in 1947, only eight years after war broke out.
    • Fixed. I have clarified that Manners last played first-class cricket prior to the war in 1936, with his next first-class appearance coming in 1947. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Manners was recalled back to Britain" => "Manners was recalled to Britain"
  • "Six months later, with Eglinton based at Harwich, Manner's and his wife" - shouldn't have an apostrophe in his name
  • "although unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" => "although they were unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" (existing wording indicated that the four people killed were also unscathed)
    • Fixed, thanks for pointing that out, definitely does read that way looking at it again! StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a third depth-charge set to “deep”, which caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface" - first part has no verb. Maybe reword to "a third depth-charge set to “deep” caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface"
  • "where he received the German surrender there" => "where he received the German surrender" ("there" was redundant to "where")
  • "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches against Sydney's leading public schools" - do we know who he played for? Currently it almost reads like he was playing "1 vs 11 matches"......
    • I've had a trawl through Trove and couldn't find any coverage of his cricket while stationed in Sydney, there's normally basic scorecard coverage from club matches around that time, but nothing. Seems the matches were not covered by the local press. So just his Daily Telegraph obituary and memoirs by Yardley-Latham to go by there. StickyWicket (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • How about "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches involving Sydney's leading public schools"? Removes the slight implication that he took on an entire school XI by himself..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in a first-class match apiece for each" => "in a first-class match apiece" (again "for each" is redundant to "apiece", which means the same thing)
  • "who Manners would visit each Christmas" => "whom Manners would visit each Christmas"
    • Done. 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have posted this to the talk pages of the MILHIST and cricket projects. Do you know of any FAC contributors who might be willing to add to the discussion? StickyWicket (talk) 15:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
AssociateAffiliate, I appreciate that real life exists, but this has been open for six weeks and you have not responded to open comments for six days. If some of the outstanding queries are not resolved soon the nomination is liable to time out under "actionable objections have not been resolved". Gog the Mild (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed a few more points this evening. StickyWicket (talk) 00:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I've addressed all these points now. StickyWicket (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by From Hill To Shore edit

I'm placing this here as a holder. I may not be able to make an in depth review before the weekend. From Hill To Shore (talk) 12:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am a little concerned that Yardley-Latham (2010) is a primary source written by the subject. It is slightly redeemed as having been edited by Yardley-Latham but the majority of the content is presumably in Manner's own words and with any associated bias. Are there any alternative sources that we can use either to replace Yardley-Latham or to insert as supporting citations? From Hill To Shore (talk) 00:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surprisingly, for someone who died so recently and was the holder of a notable longevity record, besides his long RN career, there isn't a great deal written about him that goes into detail about his life. Yardley-Latham (2010) seems to be the only one, and is of course a collection of his memoirs. Possibly some of his obituaries might be able to support the references from Yardley-Latham. StickyWicket (talk) 13:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately that is likely to mean we either trim out the potentially contested statements supported by Yardley-Latham or this fails the FA nomination. I'll have a look through the statements later but the line about the court martial of the King George V lieutenant is a bit much to be supported by a primary source that may be speaking from rumour rather than fact. From Hill To Shore (talk) 14:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With the statement about the court-martial and the relieving of her commander, I am finding it difficult to find any official documentation. I presume by "commander" Manners' would have been speaking about an officer with the same rank as him, as her overall commanding officer remained in place throughout October 1945. I have searched in Trove for any headlines about it, but nothing thus far. StickyWicket (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have concerns with several statements that are only supported by the Yardley-Latham primary source. Primary sources can only be used to support statements directly about the source of primary information. In other words, uncontroversial claims about Manners can be supported by Manners but not claims relating to wider subjects. From Hill To Shore (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "It was reported at the time to have been the second largest unexploded German bomb to have been recovered during the Blitz." - that is quite a big claim and we should have a secondary source to support it. All we can really say at the moment is "Manners heard it was the second largest."
    • I have removed this, I can't find any news reports from the time to corroborate this. StickyWicket (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the same month, Eglinton was chosen to take part in Operation Lucid, a plan to use fire ships to attack German invasion barges in ports in German-occupied northern France, however while escorting an oil tanker to Boulogne the command ship HMS Hambledon struck a mine, resulting in the cancellation of the operation." - there should be secondary sources available that describe the operation.
    • I have added a secondary source which names Hambledon as having struck an acoustic mine, leading to the end of the operation. StickyWicket (talk) 11:16, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Manners served as a lieutenant aboard Eglinton until February 1942, after which he held a brief command aboard HMS Fame which was being repaired at Chatham. After a few weeks commanding Fame, Manners was sent to HMS Eskimo at Falmouth, after her first lieutenant had fallen overboard and drowned." - I'd expect some secondary source material for the drowning, at the very least.
    • I wonder if this might be Lieutenant Edward Peregrine Stuart Russell, who drowned in May 1942 whilst attempting to save a comrade aboard Eskimo? I'll see if I can do some digging, but do have a dissertation deadline to meet this coming week, so might take me a week or two to address these!!! StickyWicket (talk) 21:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Have found some newspaper reports of the time of the drowning of the first lieutenant of Eskimo, which confirms the above. StickyWicket (talk) 23:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After a fortnight at the sheep station, Manners received a phonecall and was assigned to HMS King George V in October 1945, after her first lieutenant had been court-martialled and commander relieved of his duties." - we need a secondary source for the court martial and relieved of duty claims.
    • I have also removed the court-martial and relieving of duty claims, as I can't find anything to back it up on Trove and someone has checked books on the British Pacific Fleet and there was no mention; I'm guessing it just didn't merit press coverage. StickyWicket (talk) 14:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
StickyWicket, have you addressed all of From Hill To Shore's comments? If so, could you ping them? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet, will be slow business over the next week or so, I'm writing up my dissertation for my degree! StickyWicket (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@From Hill To Shore:. I've addressed your comments, hopefully sufficiently! :) StickyWicket (talk) 11:18, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi From Hill To Shore, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is ::bligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. As all of the potentially challenged material supported by the primary source has been removed or a supporting secondary source added, I have no more concerns here. Changing to support. From Hill To Shore (talk) 15:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66 edit

  • The phrase "the son of the admiral Sir Errol Manners" reads awkwardly to me. Drop the "the" and simply capitalize and link the rank.
  • "commanding officer aboard" is too wordy. Simplify to commanding or commander of.
  • Tell the reader what type of ship each one is on first reference. So in the lede add "destroyer" for Viceroy with a link.
  • I am almost entirely ignorant about cricket so a lot more terms need to be linked. Like batsman, first-class cricket, centuries, etc.
  • Mention "county cricket for Hampshire" with links to both terms, and then just mention Hampshire in the post war bit.
    • Done. Linked "county cricket", though "Hampshire" is linked prior when mentioning how he impressed its then President. StickyWicket (talk) 13:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that the info about oldest-living first-class cricketer is trivial and is superseded by becoming the longest-lived cricketer in any event.
    • Agreed, have removed the info about being the oldest living first-class cricketer in 2014. StickyWicket (talk) 14:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No single-sentence paragraphs in the lede or anywhere else.
    • Amended, now merged with the second paragraph of the lede. StickyWicket (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "son of the Royal Navy admiral and theologian Sir Errol Manners" I find this awkward, but not so much as the earlier formulation so I only suggest rewriting it.
    • Removed 'Royal Navy' from it and linked 'Royal Navy' later in the article. I will see if I can find out if he was a youngest or eldest son, as I think he had a brother. StickyWicket (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Give his actual birthdate
  • Is there a link for Ferndown School? If not, should there be? Redlinks are perfectly OK.
    • I remember when I expanded this article back in 2020 shortly after his death that I couldn't really find much information on Ferndown School. It doesn't appear to have any link to the three Ferndown School's which operate in the Bournemouth neighbourhood today, so I'm thinking on the balance of probability it probably wasn't all that noteworthy a school. StickyWicket (talk) 20:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link cadet, royal yacht, torpedo boat, commissioning, oil tanker, mine, anti-aircraft, convoy, bursar
  • Is a club & ground different than a county team?
    • A county team consists of the playing team, typically qualified back then through residential qualifications, of a county. A club and ground team differs in that it is an unofficial county team, made up of the aforementioned players and ground staff of the county, which back then often consisted of cricketers who were undertaking their residential qualification periods in that said county, but were employed by them in various capacities, typically as ground staff. StickyWicket (talk) 13:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not aware of the RN having any torpedo boats in the interwar period. Can you give some names so I can more accurately classify them for you?
    • I can't seem to find any names. This was mentioned in both his obituaries by the Professional Cricketers' Association and The Independent. This site also briefly mentions it. StickyWicket (talk) 14:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change troop liner for troop ship with link
  • In general do not use full stops for picture captions
  • The captions for the three images in the body of the article are full sentences so should have full stops, as suggested by the manual of style (MOS:CAPFRAG). The caption for the infobox image is a sentence fragment has doesn't have a full stop. Richard Nevell (talk) 18:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's what I get for not reading them thoroughly to see if they were complete sentences.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "however while escorting an oil tanker to Boulogne the operation command ship HMS Hambledon struck a mine" awkward, especially "operation command ship"
    • Have removed "operation" so that it now reads just "command ship". Or would "escort command ship" be better or just as awkward? StickyWicket (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Forming part of the Rosyth Escort Force as an anti-aircraft and anti-E-boat escort to convoys in the North Sea which were carrying supplies from the Firth of Forth to London, Viceroy was escorting a convoy on 11 April 1945, when the tanker SS Athelduke which was carrying 12,600 tonnes (27,800,000 lb) of molasses was hit by a torpedo from the German submarine U-1274 near the Farne Islands, causing two explosions to rock the ship" This is very long and could profitably be split. Use Imperial measurements, not metric, and don't convert them into pounds; use long or short tons instead.
  • "Realising the convoy was under attack from a U-boat, and that the water was too deep for mines" The clauses here seem to be reversed. The water being too deep for mines made the cause of the explosions a submarine's torpedoes.
  • How did returning to the sinking allow him to recover 12 bottles of brandy?
  • Change explosion for detonation
  • I am astonished at the glacial speed of his promotions, especially since his father was an admiral and he was a pre-war regular officer. 1 promotion in 21 years?!! I'd love to know the reason why, but I doubt that it will ever be known.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Come back in about 25-50 years when the personnel files are opened. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Buckshot06 edit

Assigning onboard King George V - I believe first lieutenant and commander may be the same officer. What do the sources say exactly? Also, that event needs to be added to HMS King George V (!). Buckshot06 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're right, plus the big-boss commanding officer of the ship was Captain Brian Schofield, who was in post from April 1945 to September 1946, so he almost certainly wasn't talking about him! Reading more of his memoirs in Yardley-Latham (2010), it reads: "Her first lieutenant had been court-martialled for drunkenness and the commander had been relieved of his duties. The commander, one Dick White, was pulled out of his destroyer and had just joined. My duties were "mate of the upper deck", which roughly meant looking after the workforce, running the commanders' office, producing the daily orders, entertainment officer and any odd jobs nobody else wanted".
This event happened in Sydney, but having looked in Trove I can't see any mention of a court-martial in October (or September 1945) making the headlines. Are there any books dedicated to the history of the ship? StickyWicket (talk) 17:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. As I understand things from my work on the Hood article, the first lieutenant was a lieutenant-commander's job in a battleship, while the commander was the captain's executive officer in American parlance and had the rank of commander.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have the one book dedicated to the KGVs and it's mostly focused on wartime activities and technical descriptions. No joy in Hobbs' history of the British Pacific Fleet either.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah so he wasn't talking about them in inclusive words, the first lieutenant (aka lieutenant-commander) and the commander had had a few too many and were relieved of their positions, with White replacing the commander and Manners the first lieutenant? Shame there's nothing which documents it besides his memoirs, I mean would it be a major controversy which would be newsworthy? StickyWicket (talk) 20:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Richard Nevell edit

It's interesting to see a cricket biography at FAC, especially about someone with quite a colourful story. Writing a biography about someone who has passed away means the source material will largely be static which makes maintaining the article over the long-term easier than someone whose career is ongoing. A range of sources are used, but there are areas for improvement.

  • Could we have a source for Manners being a hard-hitting batter? It's mentioned in the lead without a reference but doesn't appear in the body.
    • Done. Have found a reference in a recently published book on cricket during WW2 StickyWicket (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the infobox Manners' career span with Hampshire is given as 1936–1948. Perhaps 1936, 1947–1948 would be a more accurate reflection since it was not continuous.
    • I believe this was discussed some years ago on the cricket project (10 years at least) and it was decided to apply the same career span style as Cricinfo and CricketArchive, who use 2000–2010. It does bring up some curious spans, say as an example John Bloggs who played for Kent in 1886 and then the MCC in 1910! But as they are both authoritative sources, it was decided to mirror their method. It was 10 years ago now, so can always be re-raised with the cricket project. StickyWicket (talk) 00:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Adhering to an established consensus to mirror reliable sources is fair enough; maybe something for WP:CRIC to consider again. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's some conflicting information about brandy and the Athelduke. The vandwdestroyerassociation.org.uk source says the captain sent a single bottle to the First Sea Lord which was then sent to Churchill. The Wisden article also says one bottle was sent as a gift, but has it going from Manners to Churchill; it seems that might have simplified the situation.
    • Amended. It seems Manners and another officer recovered the brandy, which was handed in at port, from where a Captain Ruck-Keene sent a bottle to Churchill (in a casket made by the carpenter aboard Viceroy. He then wrote a letter of thanks to those involved. StickyWicket (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead doesn't mention anything between Manners' retirement from the navy in 1958 and becoming the oldest living first-class cricketer in 2014. At the very least I think it should include that he worked at Dauntsey's school for 18 years.
    • Done. Added about his photography and crafts contributions too. StickyWicket (talk) 00:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "strong Hampshire Club & Ground side": as this is a judgement and relative, it is perhaps worth quoting from the source.
  • "sufficiently impressed future Test Match Special commentator John Arlott": sufficient to what? It seems like this is leading to something, perhaps the quote about Manners' potential that crops up in a couple of places? It would be a shame not to use it as it is rather a good one.
    • Have removed "sufficient" because it's hard to put a value on what is "sufficient", besides Arlott being impressed with his batting, but have added some comments from Arlott about his potential. StickyWicket (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #13 (later ref #15) is to the catalogue entry for Manners' private papers at the Imperial War Museum. Is this because the catalogue entry itself is the reference, or were the archival materials consulted? If the latter, {{Cite archive}} would be more suitable.
    • I honestly have no idea what that was referencing, it was at the end of a cricket related sentence which doesn't match anything at the reference. So I have removed it, but still referenced his private papers later on. StickyWicket (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article mentions once that Manners was an amateur cricketer. It would be helpful to give the reader some background on the amateur-professional divide in county cricket at this time, especially as it's an interesting bit of social history. The 2016 Wisden feature, "Last men in", goes into this.
    • I have linked to the article Amateur status in first-class cricket, which will provide the reader with more information. My concern about providing what is already available in that article is it might start to content fork? StickyWicket (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • A fair concern and the link is a useful step, but I think think that the article could carry a sentences or two of context without being excessive. That would give readers enough information to understand the significance of amateur status without sending them to another article which they may never return from (it is an interesting topic after all). Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        I've added how amateur status afforded him freedom to largely choose who he wanted to play for, and how he saw it from his POV. Hopefully that's okay :) StickyWicket (talk) 14:30, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        I reckon so, and that's the last point so I've switched to support. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the sporting aspects of John's life are well covered, the details about his family life seem a bit light. In particular:
  • It seems a bit odd not to mention any of John's siblings I think the rest of this line was added here by accident, but I'm not sure where it fits in the comments so I'm leaving it here unstruck! Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC), including his sister who it seems is still alive (she is 105 later this year).[reply]
    • I've added some info on his siblings. Interestingly, one of them received the DSC on the same page of the London Gazette as Manners'. StickyWicket (talk) 00:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • His parents' deaths are mentioned in parentheses but perhaps they could be added to the article's chronological narrative, especially if there is anything to say regarding the impact of their deaths.
    • @Richard Nevell: His mother's date of death was incorrectly recorded as 1967 by an obituary. She actually died in 1926, a year before he attended Dartmouth. In his memoirs, he mentions his mother had been ill for most of his childhood, but he had little memory of her. Is this worth including, given the use of his memoirs as a source is a little controversial (see above)? As for his father, he passed away in 1953 and there is no mention of how this affected Manners, his death post-dating the end of Manners' memoirs. StickyWicket (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not a small error in the obituary! Since the memoirs say that Manners had little memory of her later in life, I think that's worth including; that use of the source should be uncontroversial since it is about his experience of the event. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just a bit of a big error there from that obituary! I've added the detail about his mother's ill health and death. StickyWicket (talk) 16:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there nothing more to add about Mary, John's wife?
    • Nothing much else really on his wife, which expands beyond her being an actress in Newcastle. I have found a photo of the two of them in 1994, but it has no narrative value. StickyWicket (talk) 00:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like that the article mentions Manners' photographs and research are archived at MERL. That's a nice addition to the article, and I think shows that his work has value. In a similar manner, I would add to the article that (some of) his private papers are archived at the Imperial War Museum and that he subsequently published his memoirs covering 1938 to 1945. The IWM catalogue entry and the memoirs are both currently used as references, but it would be worth making it explicit for the reader.
  • The MCC Museum has his caps for Wiltshire County Cricket Club and the Wiltshire Queries Cricket Club in their collection. That is worth adding as well, but may also be a thread to pull on as the article doesn't currently mention his involvement with either club but if the MCC is holding onto his caps there must have been a link of some sort to include.
    • That's interesting about a Wiltshire County Cricket Club cap, I wasn't aware he had any playing connection with Wiltshire and it doesn't look like there's any record of him playing for them on CricketArchive. I wonder if this was an honorary thing, will look into that some more. StickyWicket (talk) 22:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have added that he played club cricket for the Wiltshire Queries Cricket Club and said he was issued a cap by Wiltshire CCC. Still a mystery on the Wiltshire CCC part, not even some Wiltshire based publications reporting on his death mention any playing association with the club, which lends me to think he was involved on an administrative basis with them. Hopefully I can find out if he was. StickyWicket (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • If you can find something, it might be worth adding but the current level of detail is fine for me to strike the comment. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
          • Still an absolute mystery! Especially as the span the cap belongs to saw him playing for Hampshire, at war, or playing for Hampshire and still in service! His memoirs make no mention of it, so might be one of those oddities. StickyWicket (talk) 16:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Manners' maritime career between 1953 and 1958 is dealt with in a sentence. Did anything of note happen? Can this time be linked to particular ships?
    • I can't seem to find any appointments listed for him during that period. Nothing on the Gazette or any listings publications. StickyWicket (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • It seems likely he continued his appointment at Sandhurst during this period, but nothing to prove that. StickyWicket (talk) 23:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        That seems likely, otherwise there may have been something to say about the Suez Crisis (he says, planting both feet firmly outside his area of knowledge). Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the Wisden feature, the quote from Arlott originated in the Hampshire 1990 county yearbook. Has it been checked to see if there is more information that could be added?
    • Sadly, I don't have a copy of Hampshire year books going that far back, and I don't know anyone on the cricket project who might. There's no open access online version avaliable either. StickyWicket (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Hampshire Record Office in Winchester has a copy of the 1990 edition, but it's only open three days a week and slightly short opening hours. Since the yearbooks start after Manners retired there won't be contemporary reports, and it's likely the Arlott quote that's filtered through to later pieces was the most important bit related to Manners in the 1990s edition. On balance I'll strike this comment. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, it's a reasonably well detailed article about an interesting character, but there are some gaps that need to be addressed. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll try and address these over the next week or so :) StickyWicket (talk) 10:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Nevell:. All addressed :) StickyWicket (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take another look, it will probably be Monday evening before I get to it. Richard Nevell (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Richard ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think at this stage all that is outstanding is mentioning that he didn't remember much about his mother and consider whether a sentence or two about the amateur/professional divide can be squeezed in. So we're very close to wrapping up. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Hawkeye7 - pass edit

Sources are of good quality.

  • fn 3, 38, 39, 40, 42 is a website, not a publisher
  • fn 11 is a magazine. Change citation to {{cite magazine}} and publisher to magazine. Add date.
  • fn 12 should be 179-180 (MOS:PAGERANGE)
  • fn 12 formatting of ISBNs is inconsistent with fns 2 and 20. Suggest removing the hyphen.
  • fn 21, 22 formatting is inconsistent- use the {{cite news}} template
  • fn 21 cite the city of publication (if not included in name of newspaper) (WP:HOWCITE)
  • fn 21, 22 Access date required
  • fn 26 Add via Trove
  • fn 17-19, 23-25, 30-32 - use the {{cite book}} template
    • @Hawkeye7:. How would you use {{cite book}} to simply reference the author name, year of publication and page number, as a continuation from reference 16? Cheers. StickyWicket (talk) 14:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • The way I would do it is to create a new Section called "Works cited" (immediately after the "References" section) which contains the book:
        * {{cite book |title=Lt. Cdr. John Manners Memoirs 1938–1946 |editor1-first=T. |editor1-last=Yardley-Latham |author1-first=John Errol |author1-last=Manners |date=2010 |publisher=Royal Navy History |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=GjKsAgAAQBAJ |isbn=9780557268092 |ref=CITEREFYardley2010}}
      • Then replace the footnotes with short citations (WP:CITESHORT) so fn 16 becomes:
        {{sfn|Yardley|2010|p=5}}
      • And similarly for the other footnotes. (Note that we don't need the <ref> tags any more.) fn 16 will then appear in the References section as:
        Yardley 2010, p. 5.
      • Pretty much as before, but now the reference will appear if the reader hovers over the footnote in the text, and book name will appear if the reader hovers over "Yardley 2010" in the References section or in the pop up. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 36 ISBN?
  • fn 36 should be pp. 264-265 (MOS:PAGERANGE)
  • fn 38 is a website, not a publisher
  • fn 41 I'm getting a 502 error on access. Suggest substituting https://www.reading.ac.uk/adlib/Details/archive/110168957
    • Thanks for spotting that and finding the replacement link, all done. StickyWicket (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 42 Suggest using Royal Navy as publisher
  • fn 49 Use {{cite news}} template. Remove website and publisher and replace with newspaper Wiltshire Times

Spot checks: 5, 9, 12, 20, 43, 44, 46, 49 - okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done :) StickyWicket (talk) 20:27, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hawkeye ? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]


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