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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Five Go Down to the Sea?/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 June 2020 [1].

Five Go Down to the Sea?

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Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Its hard to explain how mysterious and influential this post-punk band was when I were growing up; nothing was known, the records couldn't be bought begged or borrowed (in my circles), but we all knew about them. I head them once in 1989, and despite pleading at the one alt city record store had to wait another 14 years for "Knot a Fish" to finally be reprinted. They have become better known in the last 10 years, following a radio documentary, a retrospective album and popular demand. There is a great story here; early promise, the realities of life in an early 80s indie group, inter-band and local-scene warfare, a tragic drowning, obscurity, later fame; fortunately the remaining band members, and their high profile fans, are very honest and articulate, so post a revival of interest and many interviews later, we now know a lot. Article has been fact checked by one of the sources (mcdermott), and User:Guliolopez has copy edited, read the on-line sources, and tended NPOV, though more input would be great. Ceoil (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source thoughts from Guerillero

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I love the article. I didn't know that there was an Irish post-punk scene that was a contemporary of the US's hardcore scene

  • I think the source review will turn on if a Medium post is a high quality RS. McDermott seems to be a subject matter expert, on Cork's music scene
  • McDermott 2009 is in a similar boat, if Irish college radio stations work like American ones. On the other hand, the text claims that it was more or less published by Raidió Teilifís Éireann
Yeah worry about that too, but McDermott 2009 was published by RTE; he won a national award for it, could prob have a bio here, and the doc is talking heads, ie interviews with the main protagonists, no editorial voice, so comfortable with it. Put it this way, if the page had just a link to RTE and didnt credit the UCC origins would you be more reassured. The later doc on medium is outakes from the first, again no editorial voice. Ceoil (talk) 20:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
sorted, but will add later. Ceoil (talk) 21:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hot Press is linked in Ref 23 when the first use is Ref 17
Not seeing this, but maybe its because I'm thick, which is very likely, haha. Ceoil (talk) 21:16, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Doh. Fixed now. Ceoil (talk) 08:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does NME do volumes and issues? I think I see them on the covers of the issues in the article about the publication, but that might not have appeared until later
    • Same with Melody Maker
Not than I can see. Both have dreadful pay walled online archives. Ceoil (talk) 20:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is the NME cover[2] - no issue details afaiks. Ceoil (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are mixing c1 and c2 templates in the Sources
The what now? Not technical enough to follow this sorry. Help appreciated!! Ceoil (talk)
Another editor resolved this. Ceoil (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

:Hmm. McAvoy's book is almost like a bible to us Cork music archaeologists; as you say it was well received locally and nationally. The reviewers are all heavy weights in terms of Irish music. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

--Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you a bunch Guerillero. Ceoil (talk) 21:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ceoil: Nothing to do with the article, but have you noticed the link doesn't work on the fac page? When you click on it, instead of coming here, it takes you a blak page. Bizarre! Something to do with the question mark I think. ——Serial # 13:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Guerillero, would you mind revisiting this pls, there have been many updates to the sourcing. Tks. Ceoil (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look tonight --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Cas Liber

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An engaging read - queries below...

  • He was replaced that September by Giordaí Ua Laoghaire, [later of Microdisney and Nine Wassies From Bainne].... - I might remove this as you mention he joins Microdisney a few sentences later.
  • Stack was frustrated by some of the band's heaving drinking -? "heavy"?

Otherwise an engaging read prose-wise. I suspect it's comprehensive too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have got them now; thanks. Ceoil (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Have added alts. Ceoil (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Moise

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Hi. This is a placeholder for now marking my intention to start a review very soon. Thanks. Moisejp (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Starting my comments now, cheers:

Lead:

  • "they released further EPs with Kabuki Records, Abstract Sounds and Creation Records". From the rest of the article and the Discography section it sounds like only Knot a Fish was on Kabuki Records, so here "further" would be imprecise. Also a bit or inconsistency in the article about the name of the label Abstract Sounds (presumably the real name) vs. Abstract Records.
    Sorted Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dineen was influenced by the Mekons, the Fire Engines, Gang of Four and Siouxsie and the Banshees". This detail is only mentioned in the lead, not in the main text. I'd like to suggest it would be a very good idea for overall coherency to include it in the main text as well.
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise the detail "Author Mark McAvoy described Donnelly as probably the most influential musician of the Cork music scene in 2016" is not mentioned in the main text.
    I do say "Five Go Down to the Sea?, and Donnelly in particular, are credited for influencing the dry humour of Cork bands in later decades.[17]" - dont want to repete the quote. Ceoil (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inconsistency or "RTE" (lead) vs. "RTÉ" (main text).
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although the band only released five EPs": From the Discography section, it is not clear which releases are included in the five. If any of the RTE releases are included, then for consistency they should be marked as EPs in the Discography section. I'm not sure whether Beethoven's Him Goolie Goolie Man, Dem is meant to be included in the five, but if so, can Beethoven even be considered the same band (there were only two members the same, on top of the name change)? Moisejp (talk) 12:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thinking about this. Its a bit like the Fall, lots of line up changes, but if it was Dineen and Donnelly on bongos, it was the FGGTTS.[3] Ceoil (talk) 14:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done re nr of EPs; have moved out the fanning sessions (a bit like Peel sessions), so its clearer now. There were four EPs. Beethoven are certainly the same as FFGTTS, just the third incarnation, and are treated as such by all sources, including this year's compilation album. As I say, lots of line up changes, but the core was always Donnelly/Dineen. Ceoil (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cork:

  • "They soon became leaders in a punk movement that grew around the Arcadia ballroom, next by Kent station." Should this be "next to Kent Station"? The Wikipedia article capitalizes "Station". I'm not sure if "next by" may be a regional English, but "next to" (or just "by," though vaguer) sounds much more natural to me.
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "until then, Dineen said the band had been "playing to their abilities"." Should this be something like "Dineen has said that until then, the band had been "playing to their abilities" "? Right now the time line is especially unclear about whether he may have been saying it at the time.
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Nun Attax walked in and there was Donnelly I'd been avoiding him around town for ages because I was afraid of him." Is any additional punctuation required here? If it appears like that in the source, personally I would consider breaking it up into two quotes, or not including the whole quote, so that it doesn't appear like an error. Moisejp (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven:

  • The lead describes "Him Goolie Goolie Man, Dem" as a single (marked with quotation marks, as singles should be), while the main text (and the Discography section) calls it an EP and italicizes it (as EPs should be). I realize there could sometimes be a grey area about what constitutes a multi-track single or an EP (extended play), possibly complicated here by NME calling it "Single of the Week", but I feel nonetheless the article should try to be more consistent about whether it is one or the other (at least for the non-NME references). Moisejp (talk) 12:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Done Ceoil (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Moisejp for the review and edits. All good points, working though. Ceoil (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All adressed now I think. Ceoil (talk) 20:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ceoil. OK, I'm finished reviewing and happy to support on prose (I'd hoped to also look at some of the sources but unfortunately I don't think I will have time this time). My only other minor comment is if it was me, I don't know that I would treat "gig" (as a noun and as a verb) as encyclopedic language. You use it extensively in the article. But if you feel it's fine, then OK. My opinion about the issue is not that strong. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 05:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Moisejp. I don't think you could call them "concerts", but while change a few to simply "played". Ceoil (talk) 16:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG review

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  • In external links, am I supposed to know what Bandcamp is? Should that be linked for nimwits like me?
  • Typically, he would bring … might that "he" be switched to Dineen? Unsure on this …
  • Ua Laoghair was a more accomplished musician … does this opinion need attribution?
  • Jargon? becoming again a four piece … four-piece band ?
  • This was in part due to the lack of job prospects resulting from the economic recession that hit Cork in the early 1980s, which resulted in emigration from Cork city. Resulting from … resulted … repetition.
  • Led or lead? This was in part due to the lack of job prospects resulting from the economic recession that hit Cork in the early 1980s, which lead to high levels of emigration from Cork city. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • described as "a raw discordant … attribute the quote?
  • Can see how this would be a problem. I had copied a template, but from checking these sections are not usually like that. ps thanks for view RexxS; my opneion also "not sure why one would want to". Ceoil (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is all minor stuff, some may be wrong; I expect to support. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All good, Support another fine article by Ceoil! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review from RexxS

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Accessibility review
Topic Comments MoS link
Text Size: No text is below 85% of the basic font size. MOS:FONTSIZE
Colour
  • Information: No information is given by colour alone.
  • Contrast: All text meets WCAG AAA standard.
 MOS:COLOUR
Tables No data tables are used in the article. MOS:DTAB
Images
  • Alt text: All images have descriptive alt text.
  • No fixed size: No images have fixed size, so can benefit from scaling via users' preferences.
 MOS:ACCIM

Hope that's helpful. --RexxS (talk) 19:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is. Thank you. Ceoil (talk) 19:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

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@Guerillero: are your concerns dealt with? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Guerillero: Yes! The sourcing looks good to me --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth: (because Guerillero pinged themself :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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