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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Benedict Joseph Fenwick/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 22 December 2021 [1].

Benedict Joseph Fenwick edit

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 14:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is the second nomination of this article, after the first failed for lack of input. I have taken this article through GAN and believe it is up to FA standards. Fenwick led a fascinating life, full of controversies and disputes navigated from senior positions. Ergo Sum 14:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from ChrisTheDude edit

  • "with it officially shuttering in April 1814" - shouldn't that be "shutting"? Or is "shuttering" a synonym for that in US English?
    • Shuttering is a common Americanism but it sounded a bit colloquial on second glance, so I've rephrased. Ergo Sum 00:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fenwick served alongside Kohlmann as pastor of Old St. Patrick's Cathedral in 1809, an office he held until 1815" - he held the office in 1809 (implying only during that year), but until 1815? That's a bit unclear......
    • Agree that that was poor wording. I've fixed it. 01:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
  • "St. Patrick's Cathedral, whose construction" => "St. Patrick's Cathedral, the construction of which" ("who" should only be used when referring to people, not inanimate objects)
  • No need to link Georgetown College again in the section of that name
  • "In May 1822, Fenwick returned to Washington, D.C." - when was he in DC before? The city hasn't been mentioned up to this point......
    • The Early life section discusses how he lived in and then studied in Georgetown, which is in Washington. Ergo Sum 01:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's what I've got as far as the end of the Georgetown section. I'll look at the rest later..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was followed by the establishment of a co-ed day school." - what does "co-ed" mean? I suspect this is possibly a common US term with which I am not familiar
    • I don't think co-ed is a strictly AmEng term (but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, I've expanded it to co-educational and linked it. Ergo Sum 01:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the school began charging tuition" => "the school began charging for tuition"
    • I've never heard that particular construction. I've only ever heard "charging tuition." I suspect this might be an AmEng vs. BrEng matter. Ergo Sum 01:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As they left, a mob of 2,000, wearing masks or painted faces encircled the convent" - needs a comma after faces to close off the clause
  • "All but one of the perpetrators was acquitted" => "All but one of the perpetrators were acquitted" (the subject "all but one" refers to multiple people)
  • Think that's it from me :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:24, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments, ChrisTheDude. Ergo Sum 01:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support edit

Will look at this soon. Hog Farm Talk 21:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • " The school was opened in 1808, in a house on Mulberry Street,[10] across the street from the original St. Patrick's Cathedral" - based on our article about the cathedral, construction did not start until 1809, so the school would not have been across the street from it in 1808. Maybe rephrase to across the street from the future site of the original St. Patrick's Cathedral?
    • Good catch. Clarified. Ergo Sum 18:04, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "succeeding Giovanni Antonio Grassi at the former" - you've already introduced him, so you can just refer to him as Grassi
  • "Later that year, Ambrose Maréchal, the Archbishop of Baltimore, sent Fenwick to Charleston, South Carolina," - is there a more exact date for when he was sent from Georgetown?
    • Unfortunately, the source does not give specific dates. Ergo Sum 18:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fenwick remained in Charleston one year beyond the erection of the new Diocese of Charleston and the appointment of John England as the first bishop" - more exact date? At least a year?
  • So he was acting president of Georgetown and Bishop of Boston at the same time? That seems geographically difficult, especially in the 1820s era
    • I'm not sure I follow. I don't see where it says he held the positions simultaneously. Ergo Sum 18:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • "On September 15, 1825,[28] the Jesuit mission superior, Francis Dzierozynski, again made Fenwick acting president of the college and vice rector, as the incumbent president—his brother, Enoch—refused to return to the college after leaving for St. Thomas Manor" and then says he held the position for less than a year. And then he's consecrated as bishop of Boston on December 21, 1825. So does "less than a year" mean ~3 months here? Because I think that most readers would be like myself and assume that "less than a year" suggests a time period greater than three months. Reading Dubuisson's article, it looks like that Fenwick did have a very short acting presidency, so could the "less than a year" be rephrased to make it clearer that this time frame wasn't even close to a year? Hog Farm Talk 20:13, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Rephrased to clarify it was just a few months. Ergo Sum 22:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we get a more exact date as to when his 1825 acting term ended?
    • I was able to find the precise date he became president for the second time, but the sources are silent as to the date his presidency ended. They all seem to suggest that he just held the presidency until he went to Boston, following his appointment as bishop. Ergo Sum 19:24, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infobox says he died in Boston. I don't doubt this, but it actually isn't specified/cited in the body
    • Most every source simply says that he died as the Bishop of Boston, implying that he died in Boston. However, I was able to find one source that says he died at the then-cathedral of Boston, which is in Boston. I've added this to the article. Ergo Sum 20:01, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""From the Pastor's Desk" (PDF). Holy Trinity Catholic Church Bulletin. Washington, D.C.: Holy Trinity Catholic Church. December 6, 2015. p. 2. Archived (PDF) from the original on December 16, 2018. Retrieved January 4, 2019" - Since you're citing a column written by the pastor, shouldn't he be given as the author?
    • That makes sense. Done. Ergo Sum 20:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Fenwick cropped.jpg - does not have a real source link. The source link takes me to a different file, which merely has a circular source link back to the file description page.
    • The original was a photograph, so there's really nothing to link to. I've slightly tweaked the wording to make this clearer. Ergo Sum 20:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This does not constitute a formal image review, although I did look at the images. Hog Farm Talk 05:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review, Hog Farm. Apologies for the delay. Ergo Sum 20:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ergo Sum: Looking good, except for one point that I think can be addressed with a phrasing improvement. Hog Farm Talk 20:13, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Grapple X edit

  • Overall sources seem to be academic publishing—good to see a mix of university presses here and not a preponderance from Georgetown, the range speaks to breadth well.
  • Tager 2001 has a URL but no access date, unlike the other sources with URLs provided. I don't believe these are necessary for books but it should be uniform if used,
  • Ref 52 mentions that the building was sold in 1980, not that the school ceased operating that year; can we get this backed up with another source giving the specific year it stopped operating?
    • I found a better source and replaced the previous one with it. (Also discovered that it was 1981, not 1980). Ergo Sum 01:02, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's all I have here. I don't believe a dedicated spot-check is necessary but I can conduct one if required. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 19:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for your review, Grapple X. Ergo Sum 01:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • New source definitely covers this better. Took a second read over everything just to be sure and nothing seems amiss. Happy to consider this passed on sourcing. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 02:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM edit

  • Three links in the opening three sentences of the lead to the Society of Jesus.
    • I actually think it's justified in this instance, because each of those three instances are very different. One is the term "Jesuit," the other is "Society of Jesus," and the third is "SJ." I think it's definitely worth it to link Jesuit and I think your average reader, especially a non-Catholic, would not know that the Society of Jesus is the formal name for the Jesuits, much less that SJ is the abbreviation for Society of Jesus, which is the Jesuits. It is also standard in Jesuit biography articles to link the first instance of SJ for that reason. Ergo Sum 02:42, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "founder of the College of the Holy Cross" might be contextual to say where this is.
  • "began his ministry in New York City as the co-pastor of St. Peter's Church, the pastor of the..." mildly confusing, he began his ministry with two positions simultaneously? Also, a year would be helpful I think.
  • "intra-parochial conflict" what's that?
  • "Fenwick's life, and the formation of the Montgomery Guards. Fenwick also addressed intra-parochial conflict, ultimately placing a Boston church under interdict. Fenwick ..." thrice Fenwick, perhaps replace the middle one with "He"?
  • "His older brother was.." last "his" would relate to Cuthbert, is that the intention?
  • "earning highest academic honors" what does this mean?
    • Not entirely sure. I could speculate that the source means summa cum laude, but I don't know if this institution was using Latin honors at this time. Ergo Sum 02:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You link "philosophy" but not "theology"?
  • "the Society of Jesus, which" again, you've linked Jesuit in this section already.
    • It's always been my practice that the lede is discounted for the purposes of linking first instances of terms unless it's an especially short article. Here, this is the first instance of Society of Jesus after the lede. Ergo Sum 02:54, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "entered the Jesuit novitiate ... enter the restored novitiate..." repetitive.
    • Combined sentences. Ergo Sum 02:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was sent" re-assert Fenwick, last "he" was Leonard Neale. And it's a new section so nice to recall who we're talking about in any case.
  • "the Archbishop of Baltimore, sent Fenwick" overlinked.
    • This is the only place in the article where Archbishop of Baltimore is linked. I think it makes sense to do so. Plus, the earlier Archdiocese of Baltimore is not that close. Ergo Sum 02:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "returned to Washington, D.C. as" overlinked, and comma after D.C.
    • This, too, is the only instance of Washington, D.C. being linked. I always think it makes sense to link cities, especially for a non-western readership. Ergo Sum 02:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a link for rector?
  • "Archbishop Ambrose Maréchal served" overlinked.
  • "by Protestant evangelists" overlinked.
    • Though certainly a common term for a read-up person in the Anglosphere, I think it's worthwhile for those who may not be familiar with the Protest-Catholic divide/history. However, I'm amenable to removing this one if you really think it's unnecessary. Ergo Sum 03:01, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Old Town, Maine for" comma after Maine.
  • Is there a link for incardinating?
  • "from Emmitsburg, Maryland to" comma after Maryland.
  • "this paper survived" publication perhaps instead of the colloquial "paper".
  • " The Pilot, which is today the oldest Catholic newspaper in the United States" the target article says it's the oldest still published because at least one other work was older.
  • Our article capitalised Greater in Greater Boston.

That's all I have. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your review, The Rambling Man. Ergo Sum 03:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, happy to support. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:03, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

All images appear to be suitably placed and alt text is passable. File:Mitre plain 2.png and its parent work File:Mitre - Heraldry.svg however need to explain the copyright status of the mitre design; I imagine it's some flavour of PD-old? File:Old St. Patrick's Cathedral on Mott Street, NYC 1831.jpg licencing is fine but is a direct link to the page where the image is possible? File:Ruins of Ursuline Convent 1834 Riots.jpg dating is a little sparse. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus, thank you for the image review. For the St. Patrick's Cathedral image, the link at present does go to the original work (a book), which is made available via Internet Archive. I'm afraid I can't find any more detailed a date than the year for the convent image. For the mitre image, which comes in as part of the template, I think the CC 2.5 license applies to the design of the mitre, since it's just a generalized depiction of a mitre. I don't think it copies anything, so the author's released under 2.5 is a release of the whole image, which includes the digital design. Otherwise, I'm not sure what they would be releasing. Ergo Sum 04:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the image depicts a generic mitre, it should be removed - the way it's currently used it strongly implies that the image is the official design and style of this particular cleric. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. Yes, to clarify, the mitre is not specific to Fenwick. It’s a long-standing symbol of Catholic bishops and, indeed, many Christian bishops generally. It cannot be removed without removing {{Infobox bishop styles}}, which is used on a great many (perhaps the substantial majority) of Catholic bishop articles and those of other Christian denominations. It’s a useful template, and I think the mitre is a minor but welcome stylistic touch to the template. Either way, that’s something that has to be addressed in the context of the template, not this particular article. Ergo Sum 15:37, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Jo-Jo Eumerus just to make sure they saw the above response. Ergo Sum 04:30, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to be That Guy but I still think that it is misleading when the template says "Styles of Benedict Joseph Fenwick" (emphasis mine). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I think we just have a difference of opinion. Granted I am fairly well versed in Christian, particularly Catholic, imagery, I don't think your average reader with at least some degree of familiarity with Catholic (or Christian) bishops would conclude, given the context, that the mitre depicted is Fenwick's uniquely. I think it is pretty well known that a mitre is the signature symbol of a bishop, and that is the reason it is used here. I would go so far as to say that is common knowledge among the average, educated reader. This is especially so, given the context of the vast majority of other Catholic bishop biographies on WP bearing that same mitre. If someone is not familiar with that, then one need only click on the image where there is the description. If it is any help, I have beefed up the description of that image on Commons to clarify that it is an image of a generic mitre, not any one bishop's in particular. Ergo Sum 20:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with being overridden on this one, but from my perspective as someone who knows about heraldry but little about the Catholic Church that kind of infobox image is misleading as my first assumption - endorsed by the text over the image - is that the mitre is specific. I wouldn't assume that readers coming here will be familiar with other bishop articles and their writing conventions, either. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 21:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would've liked a another set of eyes on the question. As I say above, I think the average reader would understand the image in context, but if others think otherwise, then I'd be open to removing the template for the time being and opening a broader discussion on the template page about whether the current use of the image is warranted. I just wouldn't want something rather minor like this to hold up what would otherwise appear to be a successful FAC. Ergo Sum 03:06, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Gog the Mild, recusing to give a second opinion on this.
  • I am afraid that I agree with Jo-Jo. The phrase "Styles of Benedict Joseph Fenwick" immediately followed by the mitre symbol will, IMO, inevitably lead a reader to believe that the symbol is part of Fenwick's personal style. It seems to not be a terribly well designed template. Regardless, the article, IMO, needs tweaking such that any risk of such reader confusion is removed. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I concur with Gog here. When I read the article, I had assumed that the mitre would part of the style. Hog Farm Talk 14:33, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would seem the people have spoken. I've gone ahead and removed the template. Perhaps the template can use some tweaking to avoid this issue. Ergo Sum 02:11, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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