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User talk:Pvmoutside



I had the following message via email:

Hi Jim - someone has redirected the Stejneger's Stonechat page on en-wiki to Siberian Stonechat in contradiction to its acceptance as a separate species by IOC; could you revert this edit, please?
Might also be worth dropping a note to the editor concerned that en-wiki policy is to follow IOC taxonomy ;-)

Any comment? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

IOC comment: Split (IOC 2.4) based on Zink et al. 2009 mtDNA analysis, but may be premature; further resolution of this stonechat complex is needed......also Clements or IUCN has not accepted. We do not follow IOC taxonomy, we do follow for English names only. Because of doubt in IOC, and non acceptance at Clements and IUCN, I decided to redirect......I'd be happy to discuss further, but Stejneger's stonechat should still be a redirect in my opinion.........Pvmoutside (talk) 22:14, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

IUCN updatesEdit

I noticed you've been updating the assessment status taxobox parameter in a large number of species. However, could you please also update the citation when you do that? For example, in Squalius anatolicus, the citation still states "Crivelli, A.J. 2005" with an IUCN assessment date of 2006, while the current LC assessment actually is "Freyhof, J. 2014", assessed 2014. I think that may become rather confusing, particularly if it happens over a wide range of articles. Cheers! -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

sorry......will do....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Similarly for your status update of Dacrydium pectinatum, I updated the IUCN reference. I try to use the Taxobox:status_ref parameter for placing this reference. Thanks Declangi (talk) 04:33, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi, it's great that you update IUCN assessments, but could you please also add the citation? There should be correspondence between the citation and the factoid it is supporting, not a mismatch like there is for Kasner's dwarf burrowing skink and there was for Lomi's blind legless skink. Cheers, Micromesistius (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi. You recently edited some IUCN status and citations for Odonata using the IUCN template. It appears that the IUCN template is no longer recommended:

NOTE: This and other ID-based IUCN templates are now obsolete, at least in so far as they require the now discontinued IUCN Red List version number. The IUCN now recommends citing assessments as electronic journal articles using the new DOIs, and the cite journal template can handle all the information provided for a citation.

I realise now that I have actually read this note that I am responsible for quite a few IUCN citations that incorrectly used a web cite format; these will need to be fixed. However, if you fix the IUCN status on more pages, then I suggest use the recommended method using DOIs. John Tann (talk) 08:18, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

  • is that a Wikipedia change or an IUCN change, and can you add a link to the info you mention? I am unfamiliar with it....Pvmoutside (talk) 10:52, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
It's a change to both. IUCN stopped using version numbers (which take the form 2013.3, 2014.2, etc). Version numbers are required by Wikipedia's {{IUCN}} template. So we can't use {{IUCN}} to cite the current version of the IUCN database. {{Cite journal}} has the necessary parameters to cite the current IUCN database. See the top part of the documentation of {{IUCN}} for more information about citing the IUCN database. Plantdrew (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I've updated American robin with the new citation. Do you find that is acceptable or do you have a Wikipedia species example under the new format that works?....Pvmoutside (talk) 23:52, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
The IUCN citation at American robin seems quite fine to me, although perhaps not absolute best practice (see Syzygium oreophilum for an example of using cite journal for IUCN). But updating IUCN references is not part of my usual work-flow, so kudos to you for taking that on, however you format it. Plantdrew (talk) 21:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Do you see the IUCN pages differently from me? I am updating the Cypriniformes to add automatic taxoboxes to any articles that do not have them. So far many of the citations for IUCN statuses that you added in April do not conform with the ones I see here (in the UK). Yours almost all have NatureServe as the assessor and I can see that is correct for most North American taxa but it is not for Old World taxa as far as I can see. An example is the European bitterling. The above discussion has been useful and I will use the cite journal template for these going forward.Quetzal1964 (talk) 14:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

A while ago I was making sure the IUCN links were working, so I updated the link without paying attention to the reference until someone pointed that out. For Cypriniformes, there shouldn't be too many that way....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, I've left off at the genus Opsarius in the Danios, working alphabetically, if that helps you....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks.Quetzal1964 (talk) 18:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)


Hi. Per H:ARC, we usually start archiving talk pages after it reaches 75k in size. You've been editing for ten years, never archived, and yours is approaching 200k. I see this was brought to your attention three and a half years ago and you have yet to get started. I can help you set it up but the link I provided gives instructions. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:26, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Chris.....done....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Congress photosEdit

(from your message on Commons) - it seems that the Commons deletion process for copyright violations is more straightforward in that if someone labels an image as such, there's a good chance it'll be deleted even though that judgement might be incorrect. For those Congressional photos you uploaded, some were and some weren't copyvios. It's harder to distinguish on Facebook profiles, but the general rule of thumb is that if they are campaign photos or any other preexisting professional headshot or photos without any explicit release, those aren't considered US Government work and thus are not public domain (off the top of my head, the Arrington, Johnson, Tenney, Demings ones can fall under this description). The ones with the blue backgrounds and flag backgrounds, however, appear to be official US House photos, which seems to have been overlooked by whoever deleted all of the images. Usually "official" photos will have some consistent type of style, as I described. I tried to prevent some of the others from deletion but it seems that was overlooked. Also, generally if the source is from the official website of the congressperson (with a .gov URL) those are in the clear as well but it's quite early in the terms of the new Congress so not many of the websites contain official photos yet. I'm sure someone else might reupload them anyways in the near future, though. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to contact me. Connormah (talk) 13:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

List of birds of New ZealandEdit

Can you explain what you are doing? You have taken off some species, e.g. Auckland Islands Merganser, which according to the list criteria should be included as it was extirpated after human settlement of the island.(talk)Quetzal1964 16:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

sure......the New Zealand list I think should incorporate only those species seen on "mainland" New Zealand.....species on any of the offshore islands (i.e. Auckland, Chatham, Kermadec, etc. should have their own lists and are redlinked on the regional birds page...)....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Erm? There is no mainland New Zealand, it's an archipelago, the two largest islands are North Island and South Island. It's also a nation state to which the other islands belong. I don't agree with what you are doing because you are using your own definition of New Zealand, what about Stewart Island is that part of the "mainland". If we applied that logic then a list of birds of Great Britain would not include birds which have occurred on the Scilly Islands, Shetland or the Outer Hebrides but not on the island of Great Britain. I see you have chosen to insert your own definition of what the list covers, I think that at least you should have put something on the Talk page first as a point of discussion.(talk)Quetzal1964 19:42, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

that is why I put "mainland" in quotations.......the offshore islands I am deleting out are more than 200 miles off the coast. Those islands will eventually have their own pages. Do we add all the Birds of the British Virgin Islands or Bermuda to the Britsh page? Do we add the birds of Christmas Island, Norfolk, or Lord Howe Islands to Australia?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I see your point but these islands are all linked biogeographically whereas the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda are in the Neotropics and not the Palearctic and, yes, I could see some value in adding Christmas Island, Norfolk, or Lord Howe Islands to an Australian list. I have added a comment to the talk page so hopefully we can see what other editors think. Anyway, I'm in a good mood as Scotland squeezed a win past the Irish at Rugby today and tomorrow I go birding. (talk) Quetzal1964 21:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

go get 'em!....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Common Kingfisher always well worth seeing, Fieldfares too. (talk) Quetzal1964 20:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Also, as I said in the talk page, serious disagree with removing offshore islands. They are politically and biogeographically New Zealand proper. Removing them would not be like not including the British Virgin Islands from the British list, it would be like taking Shetland and Orkney out. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:57, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Sabine's Sunbird...I agree with your argument to keep the offshore island birds on the main New Zealand list (you make a great point about Alaska, and the Australia list is inclusive of their offshore islands), so I'll return the birds to the current list as time allows. Sorry about my unfamiliarity with the islands. As another thought I had, for example, Puerto Rico is not included on the US list, and I thought them territories rather than a true part of New Zealand....Feel free to return them (or anyone else for that matter) since I've updated the index and format somewhat on the current list. I also really like your sandbox New Zealand list, but it looks like it's been inactive for a bit until you picked it up again a few days ago. Can I help or are you OK and would rather finish on your own?....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  • the books I need to finish my plan are packed away for a few months, but it would be good to finish. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:21, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
on your own or with help?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh, help would definitely be better. As you can see from the edit history I haven't touched it in a long time. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:38, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
so i'd like to start by moving over bird families that are essentially done. One question I have before getting started is a listing for Stewart Island which I see you've left off. Isn't Stewart a major enough island to have it's own listing box on the NZ page? My guess is Codfish and other minor islands can be included there?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
It is large, but it isn't sufficiently distinct biogeographically. I can only really think of one species found there that you wouldn't find on South Island (introduced Subantarctic Snipe). Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm more concerned what species aren't there, than what species are.....also, don't some of the procellarids nest there that don't on South Island? Seems like a hole if it's not listed........Pvmoutside (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Also worth noting that some species, such as Auckland Islands Merganser (better referred to as Southern Merganser, never called Auckland Merganser despite what IOC says) were formerly abundant on the mainland – yes, New Zealand has a mainland – but were wiped off the main islands by humans. So they should absolutely be included in a list of NZ birds. Knowing what to include in that list requires either checking the appropriate articles for historical info, or being familiar with NZ bird biogeography such as Worthy and Holdaway (2002) The Lost World of the Moa. Unfortunately many articles don't have this information included, and need work. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Grey duckEdit

Pacific Black Ducks or Grey Ducks - apart from the Chathams, I suspect your source is out of date. The species is almost effectively extinct here. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up.....I used the Te Papa reference, and didn't realize the extent of the Mallard gene swamping. Same thing to a slightly lesser extent going on with American Black Duck.....I changed most of the subantarctic island to extirpated....let me know what you think now.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I fixed the Campbell and Auckland teals which were showing in Auckland and Snares respectively - you may want to check the other ducks. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:22, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

IOC namesEdit

I notice you're changing some of the link names to NZ bird articles to conform to the IOC list. Wikipedia has different naming conventions, based on what's used in the main reliable sources. So for example the name Bushwren is wrong, and should be moved to New Zealand bush wren, as you can see I did with New Zealand rock wren. There are quite a few birds in that category – Auckland merganser, Chatham snipe – and it might be best to move articles based on the current NZ checklist, the standard current field guide (Heather and Robertson) and NZbirdsonline. Otherwise those links you're fixing will have to be changed back. Cheers, Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

so I'm a little confused by your statements. New Zealand rock wren is a proper IOC English name, but Bush wren is also proper IOC and that is how I'll leave it. I did change Stephens Island wren to Lyall's wren because the IOC made a case that the bird historically was not confined to Stephens Island, (was found on North Island as well). Stephens Island was it's last stronghold. Same with Auckland merganser, which the IOC states was also historically found on South and Stewart Islands, and should be called New Zealand merganser, which I'm also thinking of changing. There have been cases where the project has left a local name in place (Australian wood duck instead of the IOC name of maned duck for example), but a discussion should take place regarding a specific species before the non IOC name is used......Pvmoutside (talk) 20:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
On the IOC list for Acanthisittidae the official IOC names are "New Zealand rockwren" and "Bushwren", neither of which are commonly used by New Zealanders, the NZ checklist, field guides, or the scientific literature. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the IOC list when deciding what to title articles: "Wikipedia article titles may diverge from the IOC list when the most common name in reliable sources is different from the IOC name." (from WP:BIRDS). New Zealand birds have for some reason been badly served by the IOC! Personally I wouldn't even put the alternative IOC name in bold unless there's evidence it's in wide use, which most are not (yet). Good on you for moving Lyall's wren and the NZ merganser (the latter it's also commonly known as the southern merganser BTW). A suggestion: before moving an article I'd probably post a request for comment on the Talk page for a while to see if anyone has objections. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 20:15, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Rock wren is also used as the primary species name for Salpinctes obsoletus from North America. Unfortunately in Wikipedia there is no way to use the same name on a species page title (see American/Pacific black duck, American/Australian white ibis, American/African yellow warbler). A case can be made to change the American bird's name to American rock wren based on the naming standards of the other species, but would need to be discussed. I see your point about Bushwren/Bush wren. My guess is it was changed by the IOC to separate from the New World wrens. Since there are no bush wrens except for the New Zealand birds, a discussion can be put forward for Wikipedia to call them that.......There are ways to reflect names on regional pages (see List of birds of New Zealand....Let me know what you think and if you have other conflicts......Would love to have you get more involved in Wikiproject Birds....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

You're invited...Edit

  Note: You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football#Navigation boxes in coaching articles (again) regarding the issue of whether or not the navboxes in coaching articles should be collapsed or stay as is. Please comment there and not here. Thanks, Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 22:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


See Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll and answer away. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Your RfAEdit

I suggest you replace the "YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE USER" bit with an actual self-nomination statement fairly urgently, or people are going to start opposing simply because it went live while still incomplete. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:01, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

It looks like this is the statement you need, but in the proper place. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree. And also an answer to Q3 that is "I've not had any conflicts" is going to run into trouble at RfA. Have a think about any disagreement you had (eg: the dispute with Quetzal1964 further up this talk page is a good start), and elaborate on that. Conflict doesn't necessarily mean going to AN / ANI; and indeed, if you've never been dragged to those noticeboards, that might be worth mentioning too. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:06, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, I see Casliber transcluded it before it was ready, so I have untranscluded it again so you can wait until it is ready. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • When you are happy for it to go live again, just revert my edit here - but do first think about Ritchie333's wise suggestion, above. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:13, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
    I see it's been done. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/pvmoutsideEdit

Still a bit of red there. I don't know how to fix. Dlohcierekim 15:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

RfA and the page mover user rightEdit

Hi Pvmoutside, I was reading over your RfA, and it looks like the main reason you want the user right is so that you can move pages over redirects that can't be deleted. Is that correct? If so, there may be a way to do that without having to go through the grueling and often disheartening RfA process. There is a special WP:Page mover user right that you can get quite easily, in fact I could give you now as soon as you indicate that you have read through the page I linked above and understand the responsibilities of a page mover. ~Awilley (talk) 15:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Awilley....Page mover looks to be a 5 step process to move a page to a page that is blocked by a redirect. An admin can simply delete the page and move the page over in a two step process. If I don't make it as an admin, I'd rather just keep on bugging the admins I currently do that to.......Pvmoutside (talk) 00:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
It's actually only a one-step process - admins can move and replace the original in one go. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Bug me for that any time. Dlohcierekim 00:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Not being able to actually try page mover, I saw this on the page mover page which highlights 5 steps:
  • Move Gromit the Hobbit to Draft:Move/Gromit the Hobbit without leaving a redirect; this essentially deletes the page with the new title for the move
  • Move The Adventures of Gromit the Hobbit and its talk page (if created) to Gromit the Hobbit without leaving a redirect
  • Move Draft:Move/Gromit the Hobbit to The Adventures of Gromit the Hobbit without leaving a redirect
  • Retarget the redirect (at The Adventures of Gromit the Hobbit) to Gromit the Hobbit
  • Create a talk page redirect Talk:The Adventures of Gromit the Hobbit and target to Talk:Gromit the Hobbit to preserve incoming links to the original talk title. (necessary, since the redirect in this example did not have a talk page, and links would be broken)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pvmoutside (talkcontribs)
You're right the Round Robin procedure does look to be somewhat of a hassle. ~Awilley (talk) 00:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC) Would you be interested in getting the page mover user right so you can at least try it out and see if it might solve some of the issues you're running into? ~Awilley (talk) 03:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There's a great script made by Andy M. Wang that makes the round-robin process a total of ~3 clicks, and is much less of a hassle. Check it out here. Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I've given you Page Mover right - it's there if you want to use it (and I hope it's sufficient for that script to work). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
    • I just tried it and it did nothing. I copied and pasted the pageswapper script, hit the swap button, went to the page I was swapping (Pohnpei fruit-dove), added the name of the page I wanted to swap to (Purple-capped fruit dove), and nothing ...Pvmoutside (talk) 11:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
      • Ah, no idea, sorry - I suspect you'd need to check with the script author. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Worked fine for me. I used it just a moment ago to swap Berberia and Berberia (genus). Page movers can't move pages that are move protected, so make sure it's not got that. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
I checked the two pages that Pvmoutside tried to swap, and there's no protection on them. Comparing both users' user rights I see no obvious problem (though I did see that Pvmoutside didn't have rollbacker, so I've added it, but I wouldn't think it relevant here). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Boing! said Zebedee, don't know if this thread is still ongoing, but the script needs/detects for suppressredirect and move-subpages (rollback is not required). But it looks like Pvmoutside can suppressredirect and move-subpages just fine. The swap needs quite a few API calls, which can take a several seconds depending on server load I suppose. Pvmoutside, you should be able to test swaps of your own subpages (like User:Pvmoutside/sandbox and User:Pvmoutside/sandbox2) without issues. e.g. at User:Pvmoutside/sandbox, click "Swap", type in "User:Pvmoutside/sandbox2", and it should go. — Andy W. (talk) 04:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

A kitten for you!Edit

Hi Pvmoutside! I see that you're currently running for adminship. I know RFA's a tough process, so here's a kitten to cheer you up! Awww... what are you gonna name her?

k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 21:38, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I offered to be of assistance to the greater Wikipedia by applying to be one. My main interest is to stop bothering other admins for blocked page moves......I may retract my nomination to be an admin given the issues some current admins have with my nomination. I'm happy doing what I'm doing with the add of the pagemover function. It's not that important to me to have full admin status, I thought I'd help everyone else by having the admin status so I offered........Pvmoutside (talk) 00:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
It was a kind offer, and one that I reckon we should have snapped up and dragged you in ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I second the kitten. RfA is a rough place, and people can make cutting remarks there that are easy to take personally. Minor mistakes are blown out of proportion, and people seem to pile on using whatever rationale is readily available without even looking at your qualifications. I think what went wrong in the RfA is best summed up in the oppose rational of User:Juliancolton. I just don't want you to take this as a rejection of you by the community. ~Awilley (talk) 00:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Nope, none taken, but I can answer Juliancolton if he'd like to propose questions....Pvmoutside (talk) 00:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi Pvmoutside. I came from your RfA to suggest this script: User:Andy M. Wang/pageswap, but it's already been done above. I really hope you'll apply for pagemover (here), and the script makes the process one click. Don't feel discouraged by the RfA, people like to see strong track records in every area possible and for someone focused on creating content, that's not possible. Cheers, Laurdecl talk 09:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

I believe I already have pagemover, because I can already do the 2 step page changes. I am not interested in a five step process to move blocked redirects, so I guess I'll continue to bother the admins I have been bothering......Pvmoutside (talk) 11:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi. I'm afraid I've had to switch from "support" to "oppose" as your response really has me worried you might delete things by accident and scare away newcomers, so unfortunately it's too much of a high risk at this time. Sorry about that. I think it's probably best to quietly close the RfA at this stage, as realistically it's far beyond what you're actually looking to do. Some of our most outstanding writers on the project, including several regulars at WP:FAC, have never asked for the admin tools and have no need for them. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I would have only used the other tools if I could be of service on the admin side, but I guess you have plenty, and I'd rather do content anyway. I do have an issue with question 4 though. I am usually a very inclusive sort of person, and I usually try to incorporate newcomers edits into articles I watch. The content in that statement looks more like an personal statement about a friend, is not referenced, and doesn't follow Wikipedia style. What should have been the answer there?....11:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I've used this sort of question a lot, and I like it as there is no "right answer" but a whole variety of different ones. The basic idea is to find out what you would do in a "grey area" situation where an article isn't obviously deletable or retainable. The prose as I gave it does look like a WP:CSD#G11, and specifically mentioning that is not inherently wrong. However, it's pretty short and easy to rewrite. Going beyond that, if you search for Bazz Ward on Wikipedia, you'll find he's mentioned in Hanx and The Nice, and a Google search shows an AllMusic page. That's probably enough in my view to avoid WP:CSD#A7; a BLPPROD would be reasonable at this stage (assuming you didn't want to add the AllMusic link), so would starting an AfD. Mz7's suggestion to redirect to The Nice's main article is a fair comment too; in fact everything he said is a good answer. Basically, I can see legitimate arguments for deleting, redirecting and keeping an article on this person, and wanted to see which one you picked. Having no references and not following Wikipedia style are not speedy deletion criteria and may even get you short shrift at AfD depending on how salvageable the article is. Even then, I'm more interested in how you answer, and a vague "looks like a speedy" just isn't enough. Would you say that in response to a new user complaining on your talk page that you'd deleted their article?
Although this was a bit of a contrived scenario, to give you a real example, see Sarah Shepherd Andrews (and compare the version tagged as A7 with the current version). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your efforts and second the kitten. You don't have much experience with RfA, but the only way an RfA stops at this stage is if you withdraw on the nomination page. See, for example, Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Dane. It's possible that the tally will swing, but it is very unlikely. You've received plenty of feedback by now so there's little benefit to continuing, but it's your choice. Glrx (talk) 15:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd like the process to continue. As I read it, the process ends on the 9th.....If things don't change, I'll withdraw a couple of days before. I'm learning a lot so far....Pvmoutside (talk) 15:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
In my experience things don't change for the better after the pile-on reaches this point. Learning to spot a growing consensus is another important part of being an admin. (It's hard when the consensus is against you.) If you plan to run at a later date, take a year or two and watch/participate in RfAs, and you'll get a good feel for the process. ~Awilley (talk) 16:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Hang in there, my friend! RfA can be a rough process. I had more fun defending my dissertation than I did at RfA. Even though I made it, I still accidentally deleted a speedy deletion template within my first month of being an admin (rather than deleting the article it was applied to). People are knocking you for messing up your RfA transclusion but I think even the most experienced and careful editors can mis-read instructions and mess things up. I hope you don't let it get you down. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I hate to say it but I believe you should withdraw your RFA. The community clearly feels you are not ready for it. My first RFA was closed early for the same reason, it happens. Right now you are "underwater" with more opposes than supports. Best to close it and come back when you have more knowledge regarding admin work. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Since I was one of the first opposers and some folks have followed my lead, I thought it would be good to stop by and offer my goodwill. I don't believe I've had the pleasure of working with you in the past, but hopefully that changes very soon. Everyone is in agreement that you're a fantastic contributor to the project, and your conduct has been exemplary in the face of some pretty harsh criticism. As Awilley says, the result that's unfolding isn't a reflection on you as a person or an editor – adminship is simply a very specialized role, and the things that make great editors aren't always the things that make great admins. If you decide that you'd still like to be an admin someday, I think you could position yourself nicely for the role within 6-8 months, and I'd be happy to help guide you in that pursuit. As others have others have noted, most of the objections have been of a minor and correctable nature.

    As an aside, I think it's very interesting that you've thru-hiked the AT. What was your favorite part of the trail? Completing the AT has always been an idle dream of mine... I'm getting close to clinching the NY and CT sections via gobs of day hikes, and have seen some pretty amazing things just in that small stretch. I can only imagine the wonders to be found on the rest of the trail. Sincerely, – Juliancolton | Talk 00:55, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words Juliancolton. No worries about the harsh words. Having good admin skills doesn't necessarily mean good people skills are synonymous. Applying to be an admin means familiarity with Wikipedia, so I also understand it may not be as a welcoming place as being a first time editor for example. Still, it would be nice if admins were nicer with the process. Looking at other applications, I see I wasn't specific enough with my answers (e.g. citing Wikipedia rules), so I'll take that as a learning experience....As I said prior, I do enjoy content, so I'm happy where I am right now. That's political enough as it is. I can't imagine what you all go thru on the admin side. I have the patience for that, but not the time. I do still want to pursue a limited admin role at some point to stop bothering admins for the locked pagemoves. The pagemover ability does not seem to be working for me for locked pages. I tried copy and pasting the template for round robin moves but it does nothing. I would still have to go through a 5 step process to move a locked page, so it's easier and I'd rather contact an admin (Casliber, JimFBleak). It hasn't been a big deal in the recent past since the bird pages are so far along. Lately I've been spending time in fishes, and I get blocked a lot more, hence the request. But so far they've been obliging......Regarding the AT, it was one of the best experiences in my life. I still have some wonderful friends I stay in touch with that I met on the Trail. There are wonderful places and people all along it as well......Pvmoutside (talk) 13:26, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi Pvmoutside, none of the pages you are asking Casliber to move were or are locked. You do not seem to understand what "locked" means; see WP:GREENLOCK. You also do not seem to understand how to make the pagemover operate in three steps or less; Anarchyte alerted you above that it is easy to do and demonstrated that it definitely works [1] -- please check with them to learn and implement that. I'm sure they will be happy to coach you. If you run your next round of requests through Anarchyte rather than Casliber, they can get you up to speed on using the pagemover right very efficiently. Softlavender (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
So when I tried to move some pages, a big red message appears saying I can't move the page. Admins Cas and Jimfbleak have had to delete the redirects, because as an editor it would not allow me to do so. I followed the pagemover directions copying the swap template which shows up underneath the move link. However for me, nothing happens when I use it. Thanks for suggesting I contact Anarchyte when I am ready to do the next set of "locked" pages. I should be ready to do so in the next week or so........Pvmoutside (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Would you be able to take a screenshot of the error, or at least copy and paste it here? I can't help you fix it if I don't know what you're having problems with. Cheers, Anarchyte (work | talk) 00:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Here you go......

File:Locked page.pdf....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, that occurs when you try to move a page onto an already-existing page with more than one entry of history. You're using the manual move system, which is more tedious to complete round-robins with. Are you trying to swap that page with the other one? If so, here's what you do:
  1. Open up "Swap" and enter the desired destination
  2. Click "OK" or "Cancel" depening on whether you wish to move talk pages (normally "OK")
  3. Enter your move reason
  4. Finally, click "OK" to proceed, or "Cancel" to cancel
This should swap the two pages around, keeping both page's history intact. Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
nope....I toggled to the move function. I then toggle to the swap (below move). A script prompt box populates. It says swap "Enteromius anoplus" with. I enter Chubbyhead barb and it still under Enteromius anolpus..........nothing changes.....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Anarchyte, go ahead and see if you can succeed with the intended move, and Pvm check your email, please.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:01, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Berean Hunter....there is nothing in my email....Pvmoutside (talk) 02:18, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
If it is gmail, click on the more tab in the left and check the "Social" folder. I just found that is where they have been dropping mine recently. Thought I wasn't getting emails...but found several there. For yahoo, it is a different box. Maybe in your spam folder. I have received a copy of the one that I sent you.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
@Pvmoutside and Berean Hunter: Worked fine for me. Anarchyte (work | talk) 02:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
When I had started to do this as a direct move using the lowercase "barb", it flagged me about the existing page but with "Barb" and as an admin, it then asked me if I wanted to delete. I didn't but held the history in an open tab. That history is still here. If I would have proceeded, it would have been as if a history merge. I don't know if that is related to Pvm's issue and not sure why it wasn't case sensitive. Good to know that it worked for it should work for Pvm, too.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I just tried swapping Cape pygmy owl to Baja pygmy owl and it's still not working. Same problem. I'll work with Andy Wang to see why it's not working for me.....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Okay, the emails must not have connected for some reason and I have to head to bed. I have taken the liberty of deleting your pdf file because your real name was in the metadata. I presume that this was accidental and that you do not want your identity left out there so I have done a G7 deletion on your behalf and contacted the oversight team. If this was done in error and you don't mind people knowing then I apologize.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I installed the Firefox web browser. Everything working fine. Evidently MSN browser does not work with pagemoves.....thanks Anarchyte, Andy Wang, and everyone who tried to help....back in business!.....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Atlantic 10 Conference logo, 2014.pngEdit


Thanks for uploading File:Atlantic 10 Conference logo, 2014.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Ahecht (TALK
) 23:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Species in Cercomela and OenantheEdit

A year ago I reorganised the species in the genera Cercomela and Oenanthe following the IOC list. At the time you felt my edits were premature and reverted my changes. At one point you commented that "clements and iucn still recognize genus". Since last year HBW alive have adopted the same arrangement as the IOC. The IUCN list has also changed as it follows HBW alive. However Clements still differs from the other three world lists. In view of our new policy of following the IOC classification, do you see any reason why I should not now reinstate my changes. I've actually made a start with the blackstart before I thought it would be better to get you on board first. Aa77zz (talk) 11:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

now that the Wikiproject has standardized on the IOC for tax, feel free to make any changes to synch up any species, genus, and family pages to the IOC......... We do have an editor or two that work on country lists, since most, if not all of those pages standardize with Clements. Clements changes are released once a year. I suspect more synchronicity after this summer.......Pvmoutside (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

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A sad suggestionEdit

Hi Pvmoutside. I am really sorry that your RfA appears to have crashed. As someone whose RfA was contentious I understand the stress and hurt that can be caused by the sometimes blunt criticism that some people seem to enjoy. Nonetheless we are where we are and you are not going to pass this time around. I think you would have a very good shot if you spent the next 6+ months working on some of the behind the scenes stuff so as to pad your resume a bit. But in the meantime I am going to suggest, with much regret, that you withdraw your RfA for now. Keeping it open past the point where the outcome is not in reasonable doubt could be seen by the community as wasting its time or a form of stubbornness. That might come back to bite you if/when you decide to give this another shot. Of course the final decision is yours. Best regards... -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ad Orientem for the suggestion. Yes I know the RfA is negative. The plan is to withdraw sometime tomorrow. I'm keeping it open thru the weekend to read comments and learn from them. I know not many new ones over the last day or so. Hopefully one more day won't hurt much given I have a couple days after tomorrow before the RfA closes....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Don't get discouraged...and give it another go as we need good admins. - Ret.Prof (talk) 12:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello Pvmoutside. I wanted to drop by and say I read your withdrawal statement. I apologize for hurting your feelings. I wanted to clarify that it was your intentions to keep the RFA running that I was calling into question, and not your motivations for wanting the best for Wikipedia or why you may have initially ran. Amid so many recommendations for you to withdraw, several in fact, and in the context of a strong community consensus not to hand you the tools, it was something I was concerned about. Often keeping it running works against the candidate in the future. Some times it's about optics more than it is about the intention. And it has secondary side effects by keeping it running. It's educational for you but it also, as Ad Orientem states, engages the community in a lengthy process when the point of an RFA is for consensus on your candidacy. Regards, Mkdw talk 01:59, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I completely understand,and it was helpful to me to understand and hear from all of those who wished to comment. I certainly don't want to waste time, but as someone said, any admin wishing to no longer be involved in the process once they have commented, needn't be further involved if they so wished. There were enough admins looking on.....I know everyone's busy, but I don't think I overextended my stay.....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm really impressed by your withdrawal statement. A good withdrawal like that has already earned you my support if you decide to run again after you get some experience working on the "dark side". Having a good nominator or two next time can also be to your advantage. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:27, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Dodger67 for your support and advice.......

A tool you might not be aware of.Edit

At your recent RfA, a number of people suggested the Page Mover right as being adequate for the purpose you were requesting the tools for. In your answer to a question regarding this, you cited the difficulty of performing a Round Robin move in multiple steps being over-complicated. I would recommend checking out this tool: User:Andy_M._Wang/pageswap. It turns the complicated process of round robin moves into a couple of prompts that you basically click 'yes' and enter in a summary for why the move is to be made. This tool only works if you have the page mover right, but I don't see you having any trouble getting that. — InsertCleverPhraseHere 21:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I am aware of the tool (admins have told me about it soon after the RfA), and tried to use it without success so far. I am contacting Andy to see why.....thanks for letting me know though....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!Edit

  Hi again, Pvmoutside. I noticed that your RFA did not succeed, and that can be disappointing. Do note, however, that a failed RFA doesn't mean you're not a valued editor anymore. Adminship is not the "end goal" or "the thing that makes an editor complete", nor is it necessary to do great things on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, while you shouldn't let the RFA get to your head, I understand the disappointment; that's totally normal. To help you feel better, here's a nice, warm cup of tea. Have a sip, clear your mind, and continue on the road. Remember: there's still lots for you to do! —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 02:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't drink tea..I prefer coffee! Kidding aside though, thanks for the encouragement, and I'm pressing on in content.....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:42, 11 May 2017 (UTC)



Thank you for quality articles on birds such as Yellow-chevroned parakeet, for service in more than ten years, for project work such as countless page moves and talk page updates, for "I really do want to see Wikipedia continue to be an outstanding resource", - hiker of the Appalachian Trail, you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda!....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
A year ago, you were recipient no. 1650 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Two years now! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


Hi, I just wanted to drop by and say I'm sorry that your RfA didn't go that well. Unfortunately it seems like it was one of those times when everyone has an opinion about everything. Props to you, though, for putting your work out there for the community to judge, and I hope you will continue to contribute to Wikipedia like you have been doing since 2006. All the best! Linguisttalk|contribs 12:14, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Appreciate the kind words Linguist111!....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

DYK for LaridaeEdit

 On 19 May 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Laridae, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the family Laridae (European herring gull pictured) are the only shorebirds known to have developed ultraviolet vision? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Laridae. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Laridae), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:University of Alabama in Huntsville presidentsEdit

 Template:University of Alabama in Huntsville presidents has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 01:50, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:University of Arkansas System presidentsEdit

 Template:University of Arkansas System presidents has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 01:53, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Colorado School of Mines presidentsEdit

 Template:Colorado School of Mines presidents has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 02:02, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Wilmington University presidentsEdit

 Template:Wilmington University presidents has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 02:08, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Louisiana State University System presidentsEdit

 Template:Louisiana State University System presidents has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 02:53, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Ranks in taxonomy templatesEdit

Hi, just a note re the taxonomy template Template:Taxonomy/Zenkerellinae that you recently created. Ranks in taxonomy templates must be the Latin name. There's a list of acceptable ranks at Wikipedia:Automated taxobox system/taxonomy templates#rank which may be helpful. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

A few requests regarding automatic taxoboxes and taxonbarsEdit

Hi Pvmoutside. Thank you for working on conversion to automatic taxoboxes. I have a few items I hope you'll consider in future edits.

  1. You've left ranked parameters (e.g. |familia= in this edit) rather than changing to |taxon=. The taxobox still works, but |familia= isn't actually doing anything. The automatic taxobox code looks for a taxonomy template matching |taxon=, and if |taxon= isn't specified it looks for a taxonomy template matching the article title (I understand it takes more processing power when |taxon= is unspecified).
  2. |image_width= is deprecated in taxoboxes. If it is desirable to scale the image larger or smaller than the 220 pixel default width, |image_upright= is preferred. In my experience, at least 90% of the usage of |image_width= in taxoboxes is small and pointless adjustments from the default. Readers are viewing articles on a variety of screen sizes, so there is no single optimal value for the image size. Consider removing |image_width= when you're editing taxoboxes; especially for values between 200px to 250px, where it makes a fairly minor change. In cases of exceptionally tall/narrow or short/wide images scaling the image with |image_upright= may be helpful, but |image_width= can usually be removed without needing to switch to |image_upright=.
  3. Stub templates should appear at the very bottom of article code. I noticed you'd placed some {{taxonbar}}s below stub templates. Taxonbars belong near the bottom of article code, but should be placed earlier than stub templates. My understanding is that the appropriate position for taxonbars is before DEFAULTSORT/categories/stub templates (and after External Links/navigation templates). Plantdrew (talk) 03:06, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Common name for genus articleEdit

Hi, I noticed you just moved the Thrichomys article to Punaré. I don't remember seeing many genus articles not listed under their Latin names - is this common? If so, I think it's inadvisable. One possible objection is, what if new common names for species within the genus (either presently recognized or newly identified) emerge that are not "punaré"? Common names are neither official nor permanent. WolfmanSF (talk) 18:25, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm following the instructions for the wikiproject. The higher classes of taxa usually use English names wherever possible,I think its something to do with google searches. I also like to see things written for the people Wikipedia serves, rather than making it easier for experienced editors. For example, I'll give you an extreme case. If someone did a google search on Mallard for example. The English name that appears is easier to understand by the general public, rather than Anas platyrhynchos. That's the largest reason I like English names. I know scientists prefer scientific names, but I don't think that is our audience.
Also, if new species are discovered or mammal authorities (or other authorities) decide to change English names (more prevalent in a more active group like birds, for example), then moves or swaps can be made at a later date. I know plants and insects for example are all by scientific name. That was decided by the project. I'm not averse to using scientific names, but I guess that should be discussed by the group (or by the tree of life in a larger general discussion) and changed in the wikiproject information accordingly...I know what you mean though regarding names being somewhat temporary. Not only do the species names change, but often genera and higher taxon are expanded or changes, so even scientific names are not permanent in many cases, but better in stability. For example, when Atlantic spiny-rat was first created on Wikipedia, it appeared to have only one species, now there are 11. I had to redirect the disambig pages......In birds, Chen geese were just absorbed into Anser, and the duck genus Anas was just split into 3 other genera. From my perspective, I usually work with the rules given, and hope I, or someone else comes along at a later date to update. You do the best you can at the given time..... Pvmoutside (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Your move of page Arctocephalus forsteri to New Zealand fur sealEdit

Hi Pvmoutside, this is a controversial move, as this species is also indigenous to southern Australia, and the name "New Zealand fur seal" suggests that it is invasive, particularly as the population has been recovering in recent years following near-extinction by commercial seal hunting in the 19th century (see Seal culling in South Australia). I suggest that the article should be moved back to Arctocephalus forsteri. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 01:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is Western Australia's reference of the seal as New Zealand fur seal: [2], here is Australian Museum's reference as New Zealand fur seal: [3]....Pvmoutside (talk) 10:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, there is a separate animal, the Australian fur seal, which is a subspecies of the brown fur seal, which helps to distinguish from each other....Pvmoutside (talk) 11:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the name "New Zealand fur seal" has been widely used in the past but it is a misnomer as the name wrongly suggests that it is endemic to New Zealand, and invasive elsewhere. It is actually also indigenous to southern Australia, and the recent controversy over culling has resulted in the introduction of the new common name, "long-nosed fur seal", which is now in official use, e.g. see South Australian Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources > ... > Living with wildlife > Seals. (This species is not to be confused with either the Australian fur seal or Australian sea lion.) Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 22:33, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
I see you have had a small discussion regarding the name back in January. I'd like to have a larger discussion about the English name if you'd like to keep your request to change it to something else. In addition to the references I list above, the Encyclopedia of Life references it as New Zealand fur seal and Arkive lists it as the same. I did a google search on the name, and over 90% of them came back as New Zealand fur seal. Also as an aside, many species take the name of countries/areas apart from where they are found. It does not suggest the species is invasive.....Pvmoutside (talk) 10:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

─────────────────────────It may not be very obvious to you as you're from the U.S.A., but the relationship between Australia and New Zealand is very complex - in some ways the ties between the two countries are quite close, but there are also very intense sporting rivalries (cricket, netball, rugby, to name a few), and at this very moment there's a political crisis unfolding where the governing party's wafer-thin margin at Federal level is threatened by the revelation that the Deputy Prime Minister's father was born in New Zealand, thus making him constitutionally ineligible to have stood for Parliament.

This long-standing ambiguity underscores the difficulty of continuing to use the name "New Zealand fur seal" in Australia - see this article from 2014 discussing the need for a new vernacular (common) name: Scientific Correspondence: Long-nosed fur seal: A new vernacular name for the fur seal, Arctocephalus forsteri, in Australia, from which the following quotes are taken:

In South Australia there have been calls for culls based partly on the uninformed belief that the local fur seal is feral and has been introduced from New Zealand. The logic for that belief is that if the Australian fur seal is a local species in southern Australia, then the New Zealand fur seal must have been introduced ...
We believe that using the vernacular name New Zealand fur seal for A. forsteri in Australia is both misleading and inaccurate with respect to the species’ Australian distribution, and leads to it having an undeservedly poor image in Australia.

The paper's authors consider various other possibilities; but for Wikipedia, I think the safest option would be to revert to using the scientific name for the title of the article. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 22:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand the relationship between New Zealand and Australia, having traveled to the former a number of years ago. You keep on referencing one paper and a website using it as evidence to support your argument to revert to the scientific name, while I've used a number of references supporting the name New Zealand fur seal. I'd like to create a wider discussion if you'd like to revert to the scientific name......will that work for you?....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

BRD applies here: Pvmoutside boldly moved, the move is challenged so it should be reverted, then discussed – not discussed before reverting. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:00, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Peter, I believe BRD does not apply yet. I know its probably a technicality, but the page, in my opinion, using the English name of New Zealand fur seal is correct. So far it is one editors opinion opposing anothers, with no group of editors yet forming an opinion, and with no editor taking a stand to revert the change. None of the use cases yet applies. In fact, the challenging editor even acknowledges the name of New Zealand fur seal as proper until very recently. If another author reverts the page back to A. forsteri, then I believe it is proper to set up a requested move for further discussion......Just one man's humble opinion reading the rules of BRD. If you or Bahudhara would like to do the honors of the revert, I'd be glad to set up the RM. It just seems awkward to me for me to do the revert, then file a RM back to my original request......Pvmoutside (talk) 12:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Peter coxhead will need to move it. Your round robin move left history at Arctocephalus forsteri, so an admin or another extended mover is needed to move it back. The move resulted in some redirects with left with incorrect categories. Australasian fur seal was tagged with {{R to scientific name}} and Arctocephalus forsteri is tagged with {{R from alternative capitalization}}. The standard for vernacular names of mammals on Wikipedia is Mammal Species of the World. The MSW name is Australasian Fur Seal (capitalized thus). The article was previously moved from the MSW name to the scientific name in 2010 as an uncontroversial technical move (see here).
If it is moved back to the scientific name, any future move requests to a vernacular name will need some solid evidence to establish which is the most appropriate title. "New Zealand fur seal" appears to be the most common vernacular name, but is misleading. "Australasian fur seal" follows the standard source for mammals (while applying Wikipedia's capitalization convention), but is less commonly used than New Zealand fur seal. "Long-nosed fur seal" was coined recently and isn't very commonly used at present. Plantdrew (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
  Done My view remains that this is a BRD case. I've reverted (and I think cleaned up correctly afterwards). I have no expertise or special interest in this group but I agree with Plantdrew: solid evidence is needed to establish whether a vernacular name is justified under WP:AT, remembering that there has to be a balance between frequency of use and precision. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:30, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Peter.....I'll write up the RM over the next day or 2 and we can continue the discussion there....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:16, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Page moves to "common" namesEdit

Hello, I do strongly object to your recent moves of amphibian articles from their scientific names to their "common" or vernacular names. Especially when these are species that are not native to English speaking countries, such as Alsodes barrioi from Chile. The case for moving is only very marginally stronger for countries like Nigeria and Cameroon. Basically all amphibians recognized at around 1995 have common names because of the work by Frank and Ramus (sometimes criticized, as not all names are carefully considered, which inevitably happens when thousands of names are created from the scratch). The mere existence of a vernacular name does not mean that it is the most common name in the sense of Wikipedia:Article titles. Similar cases were already discussed not long time ago, with some weighty arguments by @Plantdrew: and @Peter coxhead:, see [4]. That IUCN and Amphibian Species of the World acknowledge existence of a vernacular name does not make it "commonly used" in reliable sources, given that these sources are organized by scientific names. The AmphibiaWeb is not systematically listing vernacular names. Redirects would be a much better way of making vernacular names more visible in WP searches, if desirable. Micromesistius (talk) 14:58, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm only changing to vernacular names where there is only one vernacular name listed at IUCN and referenced.....the project suggests using English names whenever possible......I've also removed some vernacular names where the IUCN doesn't reference any......Pvmoutside (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
This is pointing to the source of the problem. Many amphibians have exactly one vernacular name because Frank and Ramus found a name for all amphibians they knew at around 1995, inventing new ones where none existed. This applies to lots of species in countries without English language naturalist traditions. If a species did not have a vernacular name by 1995, the scientific name, by definition, was the common name at that time. For such species, it is unlikely that the situation has changed. ASW lists the sources of vernacular names, so it is easy to see which ones were made up by Frank and Ramus. Micromesistius (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't use Frank and Ramus as a source, I use the IUCN, who may use Frank and Ramus in some cases, and not in others......I believe the IUCN can be trusted.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
The issue is whether these are common in the sense of WP:COMMONNAME which is not "vernacular name" (a common mistake). I get 130 Google hits for "Cabreria spiny-chest frog" and 1260 for "Alsodes barrioi" which shows clearly that the common name is not the vernacular name but the scientific name, so the article should not have been moved. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Peter, counting hits can be problematic because many of the parent pages still link the latin name and no link is provided for the vernacular sort of is self-fulfilling in that regard.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Sure, counting hits isn't the whole answer, but the almost 10:1 ratio in this case is pretty clear. There's also a self-fulfilling effect by moving a page to an English name, since Wikipedia is copied everywhere. I'm quite clear that for this particular species at least the WP:COMMONNAME is the scientific name. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
We need to find some solution here because I find your new page moves, after the discussion above, objectionable (with the possible exception of Bilbo's rain frog). All others seem to be Frank and Ramus names, with questionable veracity. Because these moves are not uncontroversial, they should be discussed at the respective talk pages. However, a better solution would to reach a more general understanding of what the most "common name" is. Here I sign the view by talk, but you seem to disagree? Micromesistius (talk) 19:02, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I do disagree. The project page says to use common names when one is available. I also know that WP:COMMONNAME says to use the most common name, whether that be the vernacular name or the common name, however the only way to measure that is page hits which is also flawed because parent pages of the species often list links to the scientific names rather than the vernacular ones. That is also copied at other websites so the use of scientific names can be self-fulfilling. I agree that Frank and Ramus may be not the best source to reference when choosing to use a vernacular name, but I haven't been doing that. The only time I change the scientific name to the English vernacular name is when the IUCN lists only one vernacular name. The IUCN is a trusted source which many editors reference. Frank and Ramus may be incorrect sometimes, but they may not be incorrect all the time. In addition, believe I or not, I would prefer to use scientific names, and the plant project has changed their rules to use strictly scientific names. That is one solution, but should be discussed first. Until a stronger definition can be designed, I prefer to align with the IUCN. As an aside, the example Peter lists of a 10:1 ratio of 1260 vs 160 hits for Alsodes barroi is a small sample size, particularly when more popular Wikipedia pages get hundreds of thousands monthly hits. If the sample size is so small, it shouldn't really make a difference what name is used in my opinion....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:47, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Your responses imply to me that you think that Google hits were only on Wikipedia pages. They were for all webpages indexed by Google. The "sample size" is the whole population, so how large or small it is doesn't matter. Whether you agree or not, you must stop making disputed moves and first reach consensus on the talk pages. WP:BRD applies to moves; you were rightly bold, the moves are disputed, so they must be reverted and discussed. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I have no problem with another editor reverting the name changes and have no interest in getting into an edit war over this. If another editor feels strongly in changing or reverting the name, then have at it....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
I thought that the conclusion from above is that further moves of this type would require discussion. But your new moves of such species as Kassina decorata fall into exactly the same pattern: relatively obscure species that happen to have a vernacular name (invented by Frank and Ramus) listed by IUCN, but little other indication that the name is in common use in reliable sources. In this particular case, the AmphibiaWeb does not mention the vernacular name at all, while the African Amphibians lifedesk does mention it. Apart from these and ASW that duly lists all vernacular names, I see little indication that reliable sources use the vernacular name. Micromesistius (talk) 17:47, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Of your amphibians moves that I've looked into, IUCN shows them all with ASW as the taxonomic source, updated in 2016. If you look at the archive of IUCN's page for Kassina decorata from May 2016, there's no ASW as a taxonomic source, and no common name listed. It seems pretty clear to me that IUCN has been harvesting Frank & Ramus common names from ASW. That doesn't mean they should be regarded as having the IUCN stamp of approval as the official common name.
There can be problems with IUCN common names. IUCN doesn't ensure that their common names are unique. IUCN uses Michoacan deer mouse for two species [5], [6]. Large-footed myotis is also used for two species [7], [8]. Mexican dace is used for three species. IUCN lists İznik shemaya, İskenderun shah kuli, Manyas shemaya, and Dislisazancik baligi as English common names for some Turkish endemic species. Those names are pretty clearly Turkish, and I don't see it helps readers or editors to use the Turkish name as article titles. Aphanius chantrei is probably easier for most people to pronounce than "Dislisazancik baligi". Aphanius chantrei also better fulfills the article title criteria of recognizability; many people would recognize it as being a scientific name for organism, even if they have no idea what kind of organism it is. Dislisazancik baligi is totally unrecognizable; if I had to guess what it was, I'd assume it's probably some kind of cultural term (e.g., a food, article of clothing, or musical instrument), as cultural terms often don't have direct translations to English. IUCN also used to have a bunch of Mexican endemic fishes with clearly Spanish comon names listed as being English (as far as I'm aware these have all been corrected subsequently) Take IUCN common names with a grain of salt. Plantdrew (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for all the info regarding the IUCN. I also saw the IUCN English name for Hyloxalus fascianigrus is Rana Saltarina de Brazalete. Needless to say I left it with the scientific name. Since I'm only updating the IUCN status for amphibians, I'll leave the scientific names for those that only reference Frank and Ramus.......Pvmoutside (talk) 12:19, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Please refrain from moving amphibian pages to vernacular names without discussion when the "commonness" of those names can clearly be contested. I guess we need a broader discussion about how to determine what is the most common name for obscure animals (I'll start that tomorrow if nobody else does). Before that discussion comes to some sort of conclusion, please stop these controversial moves. Micromesistius (talk) 17:53, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
So none of todays moves referred back in any way to Frank and Ramus......Pvmoutside (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm not against Frank and Ramus names in particular. However, that a species only has a Frank and Ramus name is an indication that there has not been "need" for a vernacular name before. What I am against is promoting English names for species that are unknown to local people with English names, in places that lack English language naturalist traditions, and which are in practice so obscure that the most common name is the scientific name, even when a vernacular name has been coined. The mere existence of a (single) vernacular names does not make it the most common name in reliable sources. Thus, the scientific name should be used, unless it can be demonstrated that a vernacular name is more common and is unique enough. This is the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME, even though the wording of WP:NCFAUNA is more ambiguous. Micromesistius (talk) 19:36, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
But there is no way to measure that unless you are an expert in the taxon or want to analyze each species you are unfamiliar with when you come upon a vernacular name. There are many non-English speaking counties that have accepted vernacular names.......Harpy Eagle, Orangutan, Giant Panda, Japanese giant salamander all come to mind. The problem comes where to draw the line, and to make editors want to edit rather than not because they may be choosing an obscure vernacular name, and fear they are doing something wrong. In my opinion, as long as there is a link to the scientific name, and an editor chooses a referenced (from an accepted source) vernacular name (i.e. not calling an American alligator a southern gator for example), then it should be OK. Having one vernacular name is then relatively straightforward.....the problem then is if the species has more than one vernacular name.......Wikiproject plants has it right with only using scientific names for all species, and then referencing vernacular ones in the article text or through redirects. If that is used as standard for all species, how well that be accepted, and if done manually, is the work now overbearing given how many species are listed, or if done through a bot, will the transfer be done correctly for most of the species.....then you have the problem of updating........I guess you only can do the best you can do, and not get wrapped up in being paralyzed moving forward by wondering if you are choosing the wrong accepted referenced name......Pvmoutside (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
I see your point and but I think there are a number of problems. First, it runs counter to WP:COMMONNAME. When in doubt which name is the most common, using the scientific one would be the safest choice. Second, you underestimate the power of Wikipedia to strengthen apparent recognition of particular names. Messy situations with competing names exist, for example South Africa seems to have parallel attempts to create vernacular names. We should not be taking sides. Sticking to scientific names is neutral ground. Third, your argument about redirects acts in both directions, so it is not an argument for or against. Cheers, Micromesistius (talk) 19:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Saluda darterEdit

I was trying to replace the 'personal contribution' in Saluda darter with a reference, and found that the entire second paragraph comes from this article. The main South Carolina DNR page says 'all rights reserved', and I think that this would apply to the article as well. Did you have another source for this material that is not under copyright? Leschnei (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Yea...I got lazy and probably copied and pasted something I shouldn't have....unfortunately I have no other sources.....feel free to edit as you see fit......Pvmoutside (talk) 19:39, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm never sure when government sources are free to use and when they're not, but I think I'll remove the part that is identical to the .gov page. I know nothing about darters (or any other fish, for that matter) to replace it with but maybe I can find something online. Thanks for the quick reply. Leschnei (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for youEdit

  The Bio-star
Thank you for your work switching living sharks to the automatic taxobox system. This is actually a little premature, as you missed Deania and its species. I wanted to suggest that you use PetScan to check for any manual taxoboxes you may have missed when finishing up work in a particular group. PetScan is also good for groups where other editors may have converted a large number of articles to automatic taxoboxes (e.g. birds, Cyprinidae) Plantdrew (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Plantdrew.....I'll have a look at petscan.....Pvmoutside (talk) 15:05, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Eyeless golden-line fishEdit

Hi, I'm not sure what you meant by this edit - IUCN ID 20250 for Sinocyclocheilus anophthalmus confirms my edit, with version 2.3 from a 1996 assessment (3.1 can only apply to assessments made since 2001).   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  14:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Tom......I appreciate you making the article accurate. I realize 2.3 was used prior to 2001, but nothing has changed since 1996 on the species other than the IUCN version. If you look at the link, the IUCN ref states 3.1, and uses the same reference. I suppose when updating, the version date could be updated as well, but in my eyes its such trivial work, that the extra time it takes is not worth it to me.....feel free to keep it at 2.3 if you so wish.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:20, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Can you show me the link that shows 3.1 - perhaps I missed something?   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  17:13, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I stand corrected.....I assumed all current IUCN pages were updated to 3.1.....I see the assessment is still 2.3......sorry about that.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. And, just to make things more complicated, Wicker ancylid uses a 2011 assessment using ver2.3. I've only found 1 such example so far.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  17:46, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of SiphatelesEdit


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A barnstar for you!Edit

  The Writer's Barnstar
For many lizards Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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Fish of Sri LankaEdit

Hi. yes, your point is correct. The two words are not coincide each other. So it is up to you to make new article you mentioned. But be careful, and note that some brackishwater fish are exotic as well. So careful about that and go head. Good Luck... Cheers. Gihan Jayaweera (talk) 12:03, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Thanks. Events moved quickly. Sorry I wasn't up to date. JTRH (talk) 06:17, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


What do you mean?Xx236 (talk) 14:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Acropogon DOIsEdit

I've come across these 5 Acropogons (Acropogon aoupiniensis, Acropogon bullatus, Acropogon fatsioides, Acropogon megaphyllus, & Acropogon veillonii) and saw that you recently added DOIs for them while updating their status. Unfortunately, the API nor the website give DOIs for any of these. How did you find them?   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  17:44, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

The iucn will semiregularly update status for species already evaluated. At the header, click about, and summary statistics. There you can find Red List Category on that, and there you go.....What I can't find are species previously not evaluated that then are evaluated.....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:06, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm afraid that doesn't help (or that I've misunderstood). I'm not concerned with their statuses being updated. I am concerned about how/where you got the DOIs for the citations, since they're not readily available at places I'm used to looking, and since I'm using DOIs as part of my citation-matching.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  19:10, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean....isn't the DOI embedded in the update as the ref references the doi in the link?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 04:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
These were the URLs given in the citations for these species in their original entries prior to the errata versions being produced. The URLs now point to the corrected entries rather than the original ones. All the citations need to be changed as per these corrected entries, because there were errors in authors.
It seems to be a "feature" (i.e. bug) of the errata versions that the URL including the DOI isn't given immediately after the name at the top, as it is at doi:10.2305/IUCN.UK.2017-3.RLTS.T45353580A119177586.en, for example. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:29, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Errata; got it. I've been skipping {{IUCN}} templates (and bare refs/sources) that have a DOI on the WP side but are missing one on the IUCN side (DOIs existing on both sides and not being equal are more rare, since we haven't been using DOIs in citations for very long, or at least been doing so very sparsely). I've only found ~70 pages like this (from all PolBot-created pages) and will update them with any substantive changes. I'll keep the DOI, if that's the only change, since they still work.
After I'm done, I'm deciding on whether or not to expand my {{IUCN}}-conversion to include {{Cite journal}}s & {{Cite web}}s, effectively standardizing all citations to the IUCN (as long as they are current). It seems there might be some merit to this.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  11:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
@Tom.Reding: a problem I have with your conversions is that you have added CS1 citations to some articles where the style is CS2. All templates that generate citations need to have a parameter to choose between CS1 and CS2, and all citations directly added using cite/citation templates must make the correct choice to maintain the citation style. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I'll take a look & correct.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  11:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Can you link an example?   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  11:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I just looked through all my conversions and found no meaningful instances of \|\s*(mode|ref)\s*=|\bharv, except for 1 ref on Palolo worm using {{Harvcoltxt}}, which wasn't touched. None of my conversions from {{IUCN}} contained this regex prior to my edits either.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  14:05, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Peter coxhead, I use the author list as provided by the IUCN, and only slightly modify it (in a separate run due to the large size of that code), enough to enumerate each of the authors so as to avoid placement into CS1 maintenance categories. The IUCN doesn't standardize author names, however (for example). If that's what you're referring to, I think I can hard-code fixes for them, after I've run through and enumerated the authors.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  15:13, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

───────────────────────── @Tom.Reding: sorry, I haven't been very clear, and perhaps not quite correct.

  • My first concern is whether references using the CS1 reference style, which has periods/stops between items, like Doe, Jane (2017). "A web page". A web site. Missing or empty |url= (help), have been added to articles that use CS2 reference style, which has commas between items, like Doe, Jane (2017), "A web page", A web site. This isn't to do with the use of the "harv" templates. I have corrected some citations to the IUCN Red List that used CS1 style in articles that otherwise used CS2 style. I thought that some of these were ones you changed, but I can't find any now, so I may have been wrong. If so, apologies.
  • The authors that need correcting are those at articles like Acropogon aoupiniensis, Acropogon bullatus, Acropogon fatsioides, Acropogon megaphyllus and Acropogon veillonii. The authors given in the citation are those in the original uncorrected entry, but the errata entry changed them. Thus if you look at the Acropogon bullatus entry, the authors in the citation have been corrected to "Tanguy, V., Amice, R., Birnbaum, P., Bruy, D., Dubreuil, M., Dumontet, V., Fleurot, D., Lannuzel, G., Papineau, C., Razafindrakoto, L. & Vedi, L.", but at Acropogon bullatus, the citation has the authors as "Birnbaum, P., Dumontet, V., Fleurot, D., Vedi, L., Papineau, C., Bruy, D., Razafindrakoto, L., Amice, R., Tanguy, V., Dubreuil, M. & Lannuzel, G.". It's nothing to do with your changes; it's a fix needed where the reference was put into the article before an erratum fix changed the authors. Maybe Pvmoutside can sort out these ones?

Peter coxhead (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Peter coxhead, thanks for clearing that up. Can you post a few of the diffs you made standardizing the CS1/2 style? Perhaps I can add this to one or more of my scripts.
Pvmoutside, I updated the 5 Acropogon pages to their most recent IUCN reference info, linking back to this discussion in the edit summary. I decided not to use the old DOI since it would link back to the wrong, old page.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  18:35, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
great!....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:23, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Gray-breasted mountain toucanEdit

Hello Pvmoutside, could you explain why you moved this species page from its IOC spelling, which WP:BIRD has agreed to use, to an American spelling? It is not even a bird that is found in the U.S. Loopy30 (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

New world species take Americanized spelling, Old world species take European spelling per Wikiproject consensus......Pvmoutside (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
No, the project page states that "Wikipedia's taxonomy for bird species follows that of the IOC, unless consensus determines there's a reason not to. The IOC is also the de facto standard for English bird names. Only country, state or other regional lists that use a different, named, taxonomy, or other articles that discuss bird biodiversity or birds in general are excepted." Could you point me to any relevant discussion of consensus on WT:BIRD for a split between New World/Old World species to use American spelling rather than the IOC standard? 'Cheers,Loopy30 (talk) 13:00, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Loopy30, I stand corrected......sorry about the changes.......There was a discussion about color/colour and gray/grey a while back where I thought both would be changed to Americanized spellings for New World birds. Rather the discussion was about using IOC names with spellings following the IOC and not regions........I'll go back and change the article names........BTW, black-throated gray warbler, American gray flycatcher (probably others) should also be changed to reflect the IOC spellings as well.....I'll change those also at my next free moment......Thanks for the catch....Pvmoutside (talk) 15:42, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Pvm, at least these are less visited pages than popular ones like Grey Jay or Great Grey Owl. For what it's worth, on any species that I am working on I always include a redirect from all ENGVAR spellings regardless of where the species is found. Always more work out there for the Wikignomes, 'Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 22:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Looking at your move log ([9]), I'm seeing 9 species that were Americanized (with CTRL+F for "Americanize"). Plantdrew (talk) 16:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Plantdrew....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:United States Senate elections, 2016 and 2017#Requested move 31 January 2018Edit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:United States Senate elections, 2016 and 2017#Requested move 31 January 2018. —GoldRingChip 12:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Undiscussed WP:ENGVAR movesEdit

I see that you made what appears to be undiscussed WP:ENGVAR moves for Tricoloured munia, Gray thrasher, Gray catbird, and Gray-bellied hawk. Moreover, these appear to violate WP:TIES. There may also be other such moves, because I see that you have been making similar moves of other articles as well. I'm not aware of any consensus to use the spelling established by the IOC for species names, which would presumably be a convention that conflicts with the Wikipedia policy about spelling. Can you please explain? —BarrelProof (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) BarrelProof, what's the tie? The munia occurs only in the BE countries of South Asia, the hawk and the thrasher don't occur in any English-speaking and the catbird's range includes the BE countries in the Caribbean, such as Jamaica. Three of these species don't occur in the US, and, despite what many Americans think, it's not compulsory for all New World countries to pseak AE yet. Please revert your incorrect edits Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Pvmoutside moved Tricoloured munia to Tricolored munia and changed the spelling inside the article from BE to AE. As you note, that's improper because the munia occurs only in BE countries (and because the English spelling convention is supposed to be kept stable in an article unless there is some proper justification to change it). You agree with me about that, right? I'll review and respond further on the others later. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Now let's consider Gray catbird, which Pvmoutside moved to Grey catbird. The map showing the range of that bird is heavily dominated by the United States. Moreover, since the article was previously using AE, it should not be changed to BE without any discussion or justification. Basically, IOC spelling should not trump WP:ENGVAR. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:53, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Gray thrasher is similar to Gray catbird. The thrasher is found in the Baja California area of Mexico, where the dominant form of English is American English. Moreover, the article was previously using American English. Once an article is written using a particular national variety of spelling convention, that should not be changed without a good justification. Pvmoutside changed it to use the British spelling, which does not appear to be proper. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
After a little studying, the situation for Gray-bellied hawk is similar but a bit more complicated. Pvmoutside moved the article and changed the spelling a few days ago, using IOC spelling as the justification in the edit summary. My contention is that IOC spelling does not override Wikipedia's WP:ENGVAR guideline, so the justification for that move was not proper. As for WP:TIES, there was an assertion by Pvmoutside in November that TIES justified using American English for the article. Whether that is the case or not, the IOC spelling is not a proper reason to change it. I suspect that the dominant spelling variation in the habitat of that bird is American (and thus that the assertion in November was correct), but I am not especially confident about that. In any case, matching IOC is not a proper reason for changing the national spelling convention in a Wikipedia article. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Similarly, your recent edits of Catbird seem to violate WP:ENGVAR. There are probably others too, since you seem to have been very busy making such changes recently. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the matter, except that {{Use American English}} or {{Use British English}} should be placed, as appropriate, on these pages to be extra clear to future editors.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  18:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

And Gray vireo, Vireo, Vireo (genus), Blue-gray tanager, Taquara Municipal Nature Park, and Blue-gray gnatcatcher. There are probably more. The list may be long, since the number of recent edits based on this IOC idea is very large. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:58, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I also see some related discussion above that includes mention of black-throated gray warbler, American gray flycatcher (both recently moved to "grey" by Pvmoutside) and others. There is a reference to some discussion "about using IOC names with spellings following the IOC and not regions". I would appreciate help to find the discussion this is talking about, to determine the relationship with WP:ENGVAR and WP:TIES. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Are these bot-assisted edits? I'm seeing edit rates as high as four edits per minute. It doesn't seem like a human could be doing that. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The map showing the range of that bird is heavily dominated by the United States (catbird) Seems to suggest that Engvar depends on land area alone, despite more countries in its range using BE. I'd be interested to see the policy that says the US trumps all because it's bigger than than the multiple BE countries in this bird's range Jimfbleak - talk to me? 20:11, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I absolutely did not say that ENGVAR depends on land area alone or that the US trumps other places because it is bigger. Please don't twist what I say into something different, which I think you have done twice here, in addition to saying I made "incorrect edits", which I see no evidence for. ENGVAR is also about stability and consensus. The article in question, Gray catbird, was previously written in AmE, and I said that. This is an article written with AmE spelling about a bird found mostly in the United States that has been suddenly moved and changed to BrE. In fact, it is not just one article, but many of them, and the pace of the related changes has been extremely high – higher than what appears possible with human editing. In response, I opened a discussion on the relevant user's Talk page. Isn't that the proper thing to do? —BarrelProof (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
The reason all were changed to the IOC spelling was to provide consistency and some rule to prevent arbitrary names or spellings based on preference. Many species are spelled grey or gray without rhyme or reason (see grey-breasted mountain toucan discussion above). The IOC gives at least a standard to follow since they have compromised to find common names using Enlish spelling on grey vs. gray, US spelling oncolor vs. colour, etc. Otherwise how do you determine what spelling to use........many Central American and South American species have already been changed to reflect IOC spellings by other than me........grey catbird is found in places other than the US. As Jim says, why is the US spelling preferred for gray catbird,English spelling preferred for grey jay or grey-breasted mountain toucan. Why is English spelling preferred for tricolored munia, but American spelling preferred for bicolored hawk? Also birds migrate........why are the summer ranges in US species more important than winter ranges where they may be totally out of the US during that season?.....I did it because it gives the project a rule, rather than being arbitrary.....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:53, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Also, just because something was written originally in American English, or vice versa, doesn't mean that it is proper(not to say my way is the proper way BTW), and that's how it should be left. Articles get moved all the time......Pvmoutside (talk) 20:58, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the idea that it is OK for article spellings to be changed "all the time", I suggest to consider MOS:RETAIN. I think it should be apparent that certain types of changes (grey/gray, color/colour) are likely to be sensitive with regard to ENGVAR and should be exercised only with caution and restraint. I acknowledge that there may be some issues and prior discussions that I don't know about, which is why I have been discussing this instead of proceeding to try to revert your edits. Are these bot-assisted edits? Some of them seem more rapid and consistent than what is likely to be performed by a human. Are you aware of the WP:Bot policy? —BarrelProof (talk) 21:11, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
@BarrelProof, from another (talk page stalker) previously involved in standardized naming discussions on grey-breasted mountain toucan above. Pvm's rationale given at 20:53 is a strong one and has the consensus support (here and reconfirmed here and again here) of editors involved in the WikiProject Birds. It is also the one most likely to avoid un-necessary future edit-wars over birds species naming disputes. It is not a matter of ENGVAR, but the use of the standard accepted English common name used on Wikipedia for bird species articles, regardless of national variations in spelling. 'Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 21:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guidelines WP:ENGVAR and MOS:RETAIN say to try to achieve consistency and stability of the spelling style within each article, but AFAIK not to try to impose a spelling variation consistency across different articles (e.g., citing some external authority like IOC) in the absence of WP:TIES. I think there is good reason for that. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Note: The comment by Loopy30 was modified after my reply above. The modification added some information that wasn't there when I replied to it. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
When I look at those prior discussions that you pointed to, I see very little discussion of local spelling variation. The focus seems to be on the taxonomy rather than the ENGVAR aspect. There are certainly those who draw a distinction between the name of something and the styling of the name in terms of capitalization and localized spelling variations of words. Those discussions don't seem to be concerned with the ENGVAR styling of the names – at least not much. I suggest that they should not be interpreted as over-riding the WP:ENGVAR / MOS:RETAIN concepts. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
The consistency imposed in this case derives from the article title itself, not the ENGVAR style chosen for the article text. Loopy30 (talk) 21:57, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion, the title is part of the article, and it would generally be undesirable to use a spelling within an article that differs from what is used in its title. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
This was not a bot, all done by hand......some article changes take more time than others (for example, grey catbird took a couple hours to do, grey thrasher took 15 minutes-easy to update by copy and pasting from the what links here on the left side menu). Regarding the sensitivity, I totally understand, but I thought I was being more sensitive, rather than less, as these moves don't make anyone happy on either side.......
Thank you for responding on that point. You are quite the speedy editor. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
no problem.....glad I could clarify.....for what it's worth, after the initial instability, I think there will always be someone trying to "correct the spelling" no matter what is used.....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Apologies for the tone of some of my comments. While I agree with everything that bird project members have said above about the need for consistency in names and spelling, that wasn't necessary. Before we agreed on IOC, we had interesting discussions on, eg common loon/great northern diver for Gavia immer. And having been told once that it should be the former because "more people speak AE than BE, which is only used in England and Ireland", I can sometimes get a little prickly... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:21, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't offended at all Jim....I remember those fights back then.....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for that – it is much appreciated. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I have just reverted Tricoloured munia to BrE. If some of you disagree, I suggest submitting an RM discussion request. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

We just had a discussion of gray vs. grey. Color and colour falls under the same compromise at the IOC. By leaving all the North and South American birds at grey, but leaving tricoloured munia with the English spelling, aren't you being a bit selfish?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 22:42, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Cautious, not selfish. My plan was to perform that one revert of Tricoloured munia first, since it seems so clear cut and was suggested to be more appropriate as BrE by Jimfbleak, and then see what happened to that before proceeding with some grey/gray issues. (I also already reverted the spelling change in Catbird several days ago.)
Now that I think about it, my next move might be a revert for Grey hawk. Please see the prior discussion at Talk:Grey hawk#Requested move 21 March 2015. You probably did not notice that prior discussion (and I had temporarily forgotten it).
BarrelProof (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
I see that you reverted my revert of your move of Tricoloured munia. Generally, if someone reverts one of your recent moves that was performed without an RM, you should open an RM discussion rather than just reverting again. Also, Tricoloured munia is now a circular redirect; that is clearly an error. Now I need to decide whether to perform another revert or to open an RM. I think you are the person who should open an RM, since you are the one who wants to change the long-stable title. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:30, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
<ec>@BarrelProof and AlexTheWhovian, the tricolored munia page was created in March 2007 as the tricolored munia (albeit with BrE spelling in the article text), and then moved in Oct 2007 to tricoloured munia where it remained as such until Pvmoutside's recent change to conform with the agreed international (IOC) naming standard. The IOC uses a mix of both BrE and AE spellings, and has been agreed upon within the WP:BIRDS project as the naming standard (and more recently, the taxonomic standard as well) to follow when editing bird species pages. Following its adoption in 2013, it since has resulted in successfully avoiding many, many potential editing disputes over the multiple variations in article title spellings. However, with 11,000+ species and only a few dozen active editors, it can sometimes take a while for the wikignomes to catch up with these alignment changes as pvm did here. As I also agree that WP:RETAIN and WP:TIES are important WP:MOS concepts, if this title re-alignment now needs an RM to justify the move in a site-wide forum, then I support that proposal. 'Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
To avoid starting a "revert war", I submitted an RM at Talk:Grey hawk, covering both articles. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:40, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I guess you need to prove a point.....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:07, 14 February 2018 (UTC)


I suggest to review MOS:APOSTROPHE, as your change of Catharus maculatus appears to be contrary to that guideline. Wikipedia prefers "straight apostrophes". —BarrelProof (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)


Some of your edits also make me suspect you are not aware of the WP:NOTBROKEN guideline. There is no need to change article links merely in order to avoid redirects. There are sometimes other valid reasons for that type of edit, and perhaps that is your motive, but I haven't seen an explanation in your edit summaries. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Tireless worker barnstarEdit

  The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Thank you for working so assiduously to convert taxoboxes to speciesboxes. I regularly see your name appearing on my watchlist doing this. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Your recent editsEdit

Hi, I don't know what you were trying to do, but you left Nabis inscriptus and Alope spinifrons in a broken state. — Smjg (talk) 16:53, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Reptile stubsEdit

Hello, it looks like you are planning to create lots of gecko stubs. To ensure that they meet some minimum standards (e.g., no bare links to the Reptile database), you could use this template:

<ref>{{NRDB species |genus=Cyrtodactylus |species= |accessdate=22 March 2018}}</ref>

Cheers, Micromesistius (talk) 07:31, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

thanks Micromesistus! I'll incorporate moving forward.....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:41, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Spiders described in categoriesEdit

Hi, I've set up the categories for 2000 onwards with navigation templates: see e.g. Category:Spiders described in 2000. So if you create new categories of this kind, you might like to add the relevant template. There should be a "Spiders described in DECADE" parent category for every "Spiders described in YEAR" category. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Peter....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi, if you add a "Spiders described in YEAR" category, you should remove any "Spiders described in CENTURY" category already present, otherwise the article is categorized in both a parent (CENTURY) and a grandchild (YEAR) category, which is contrary to Wikipedia:Categorization#Subcategorization. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Peter.....

Short descriptionsEdit

Hi Pvmoutside, Please consider adding a Wikipedia:Short description to your new articles, to make it easier to recognise what they are about in search results. It would also be of value to Wikipedia if you add a short description to any article that lacks one. Cheers · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:40, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Request page move assistanceEdit

Hello Pvm, could you move the article Gregoria fenestrata to its monotypic genus page, Gregoria (genus)? The genus page is currently a redirect to the species page. As the genus page has a small history, I do not know if we would have to merge the pages (requiring a discussion and consensus) or whether a standard over-write is possible. Thank you, Loopy30 (talk) 02:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I could move the article.....I don't think a discussion is warranted since it follows Wikipedia naming standards.....I'll take care of it sometime today....Pvmoutside (talk) 11:04, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
All set Loopy30...…Pvmoutside (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
It should not have been moved. See the last paragraph of WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Mea culpa, Peter is correct. Sorry for the inconvenience caused. Loopy30 (talk) 19:16, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
No problem; I've moved it back. It's a mistake I've made myself (it's not a policy that I agree with – I would prefer a rule that works in all cases – but it's the policy we have). Just to note that for articles on monospecific genera, it's desirable to add links to both the genus and species in Wikidata, using the from parameters.

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress#CapitalsEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress#Capitals. —GoldRingChip 12:54, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Garra smartaeEdit

As the person this species is named after is Emma Smart then surely smartae is correct, and smarti is a misspelling? See Catalog of Fishes states "Named after Ms. Emma Smart, therefore mandatory correction to smartae." Quetzal1964 (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Fishbase and IUCN have it as smarti…..I went with both of those refs over the other one...…..I could be convinced the other way as well. Etyfish ref seems to indicate a gender pref for smartae…….Pvmoutside (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Page blankingEdit

Hi Pvmoutside. I noticed you've been blanking pages like Vinagarra. Generally, if you would like to see an article deleted, it should be nominated for deletion through a process such as WP:AFD, WP:PROD, or WP:CSD. Page blanking, or editing the page so that it has no content, does not actually delete a page, and under normal circumstances, it should be avoided. I think this is probably why the other user is falsely mistaking your edits for vandalism. Let me know if you have any questions about the deletion process. Mz7 (talk) 17:16, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

In addition to Mz7's note above, once a PROD is removed by an editor, it cannot be replaced (see WP:DEPROD). You will need to take the article to AfD if you want to pursue deletion.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:24, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Persa incolorataEdit

Hi Pvmoutside, the convention for monotypic genera is for the article to be at the genus name unless the species article has a common name title. As such, could you re-visit Persa incolorata? 'Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 20:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I was also told that the convention included moving to species when a word definition appeared other than strictly the genus name. So the previous title for Persa was Persa (genus), which I believe Peter said should be moved. See note on Gregoria above....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I stand corrected. I re-read WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA and note the exception for when the genus name needs to be disambiguated as it was in this case. Loopy30 (talk) 20:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)


Sorry about going after you on the Vinagarra category. I didn't do the research I needed to. That was my mistake. Happy editing! --HighFlyingFish (talk) 05:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

not a problem at all....Pvmoutside (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Fish speciesEdit

FishBase is the agreed reference for fish taxonomy, at the species and genus levels, but you appear to be singlehandedly following Catalog of Fishes (see Pterocapoeta maroccana), I haven't noted any consensus to change that. Quetzal1964 (talk) 19:22, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

That's what I thought, then a discussion ensued and it was determined Catalog of Fishes was more up to date. See Wikiproject Fishes...Pvmoutside (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes I read that too but my interpretation differed somewhat, the conclusion I took from it was that in some cases one is more up to date than the other and vice versa. I don't think it reached a consensus to replace FishBase as the reference. Quetzal1964 (talk) 20:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
From the Wikiproject talk: "Fishbase is far more comprehensive, also covering ecology and alike, which is why I specifically said taxonomy (the one place where CoF and FB can be compared). I keep a fairly close look on newly described species and have never seen a case where FB was faster than CoF. Further, when FB makes taxonomic updates, updates to their remaining sections are often delayed: An example is the spotted eagle ray where FB split off A. ocellatus in 2012, but only just (in late 2017 and ongoing) began updating distribution, ecology and alike." Given that statement, and a few like it, my pref is to use CoF whenever it differs from FB.....If there is specific taxonomy where someone believes FB is in the lead, then it certainly can be discussed.....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:11, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
The project page still says "Taxonomy at the level of genera and species should follow FishBase. Higher-level classification should follow the 2016 fifth edition of Fishes of the World by J.S. Nelson, T.C. Grande and M.V.H. Wilson for consistency. If applicable, disputes in classification should be noted in article text". No consensus has been reached.Quetzal1964 (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Moved discussion to Wikiproject Fish....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Automatic taxoboxesEdit

I can see that you often convert taxoboxes to automatic. I have just created Atorellidae and I used an automatic taxobox but it is wrong, because I didn't know how to deal with the fact that the family was monotypic. Can you help? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Hi Cwmhiraeth, since the family is monotypic, I have moved it to the genus page (Atorella). For automatic taxobox, I added
| parent_authority = Vanhöffen, 1902
. This shows the describing author of the next level up, in this case family. To make the family name bold in the automatic taxobox, I then linked the family name to the genus name in the template ([[10]]) using
. Also, I deleted the default line in the Taxonomy template that is set to "extinct=yes". Hope this helps, Loopy30 (talk) 11:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. So with a monotypic genus, you list the single species at genus level, and with a monotypic family, the article is also listed at genus level. I will have a go at Paraphyllinidae (1 genus, 3 species), under the title Paraphyllina. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it is a bit confusing. Well, I have gotten confused often anyways! An article for a monotypic taxon is placed at the lowest level, but no lower than genus, unless a monotypic genus has the species at a common (vernacular) name or the genus name needs to be disambiguated. Then, the article name remains at the species level (see (WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA). 'Cheers, Loopy30 (talk) 13:02, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree that the guidelines at WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA (and the same for plants) are confusing, and regularly confuse editors who come across this issue. Sigh... Peter coxhead (talk) 15:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

A page you started (Luperosaurus macgregori) has been reviewed!Edit

Thanks for creating Luperosaurus macgregori, Pvmoutside!

Wikipedia editor Domdeparis just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

autopatrol not working

To reply, leave a comment on Domdeparis's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Dom from Paris (talk) 17:24, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

A page you started (Banggai jungle flycatcher) has been reviewed!Edit

Thanks for creating Banggai jungle flycatcher, Pvmoutside!

Wikipedia editor Onel5969 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

Please provide sources for this article.

To reply, leave a comment on Onel5969's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Onel5969 TT me 15:22, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

A page you started (Parasinilabeo microps) has been reviewed!Edit

Thanks for creating Parasinilabeo microps, Pvmoutside!

Wikipedia editor Nick Moyes just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

Please could you use the reference you cited to provide some useful information on description, habitat, IUCN status, etc?

To reply, leave a comment on Nick Moyes's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Nick Moyes (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Problems about Sitta insularisEdit

IUCN is recognising Sitta insularis as a specific status, and it is already split as a article. but IOC is still recognising insularis as a subspecies of Sitta pusilla, should we delete Bahama nuthatch?

I fixed it.....most still consider it a subspecies incuding IOC....Thanks for letting me know...Pvmoutside (talk) 12:03, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


Recently there are some users are classifying the species into another genus or seperating species according to the IUCN, but IOC is the standard we follow, can we make sure nothing like this will happen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samweithe4 (talkcontribs) 08:18, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress#Chronological order of pollsEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress#Chronological order of polls. —GoldRingChip 12:41, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

name changesEdit

I've pinged you twice at talk pages, some time ago. cygnis insignis 18:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Am I missing your replies? cygnis insignis 13:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Snake pagesEdit

Did you mean to redirect Leptotyphlops debilis, Leptotyphlops nasalis, Leptotyphlops natatrix, and Leptotyphlops variabilis to non-existent pages, or did you intend on moving them to rename them? Right now it's the former, and they're showing up as broken redirects. ~ Amory (utc) 10:45, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

not sure what to do except to create new pages for the red links, but the redirected pages are now considered conspecific with the pages not created yet...…Pvmoutside (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
may make more sense to restore the pages and rename them……..thanks....Pvmoutside (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Works for me, thanks. ~ Amory (utc) 13:47, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


Hi Pvmoutside, I imagine from these edits that you are knowlegeable on the subject. As things keep changing, could you check if the statement "The Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy also includes IN the Strigiformes the species usually classified in the Caprimulgiformes" here and the inclusion of the Caprimulgiformes in the Strigiformes here is outdated? I say this because in the articles on the three species included in the Caprimulgiformes it does not say anything about this. Thank you, regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, boy! looks like I did not notice that I had moved from ptwiki to enwiki!. Give me a minute to translate the message. Will be right back. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

'Arachnids described in' catsEdit

I'm looking to standardize the 'spiders described in' cat tree, and I see 4 stray 'arachnids described in' cats among them -

  1. Category:Arachnids described in 1757
  2. Category:Arachnids described in 1758
  3. Category:Arachnids described in 1775
  4. Category:Arachnids described in 1802

I'm thinking of CfD'ing these 4, but only if their contents are ok to be diffused into their respective 'spiders' cats. If so, I can do it, just wanted to check with you first.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  13:26, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

@Tom.Reding: the articles in the middle two categories (the others only have subcats) are not about spiders, so would have to be moved upwards, not downwards. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
have at it....Pvmoutside (talk) 00:52, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@Tom.Reding: ok, all four categories are now empty. I leave the CfD'ing to you. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Problematic editEdit

Hi, I'm not sure what you intended by this edit. Maybe you meant that the genus Traversia is now synonymous with the genus Kuiornis? If so, the change can't be achieved in this way because the automated taxobox system relies on the name of the template and the name of the taxon matching. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:30, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Peter......I must of missed one when I converted to speciesbox.....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:53, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Genus parameter in Automatic taxoboxEdit

Hi, |genus= isn't recognized in {{Automatic taxobox}}; you must use |taxon= (e.g. at Ceratopipra). It appears to work because in the absence of |taxon=, the taxobox uses the page title. Consistency with {{Automatic taxobox}} is why I prefer to use |taxon= in {{Speciesbox}}, rather than |genus=+|species= (although Plantdrew disagrees). Peter coxhead (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Palestine viperEdit

Please see Talk:Palestine viper. There was some opposition expressed in 2015 when I proposed the same move. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:00, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

thanks for pointing that out. We'll see if it happens again....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Why don't you reopen the discussion, now that you are aware of it, your tendentious edit warring, making a lie of citations, and refusal to discuss changes is not helpful (excepting any momentary buzz you obtain from non-improvements in our articles). cygnis insignis 05:34, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Moving the page against a previous decision without further discussion was wrong. "Common" in WP:COMMONNAME does not mean the vernacular, English name, but the most commonly used name, which is clearly the scientific name. The page should be moved back. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Cephalopods decribed in 1802Edit


A tag has been placed on Category:Cephalopods decribed in 1802 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  17:40, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Replaced with Category:Cephalopods described in 1802 fyi.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  17:41, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Category:Anemones described in 1817 has been nominated for discussionEdit


Category:Anemones described in 1817, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  21:57, 4 November 2018 (UTC)


Check this out: {{USCongressOrdinalRange}}. I just used it here. —GoldRingChip 13:43, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Arizona's 9th districtEdit

Sorry about my reversion; thanks for fixing it. It was a slip of a finger on a button, but I didn't realize it had completed. —GoldRingChip 15:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

"Defeated for re-election"Edit

Why not use "Lost re-election." which is simpler? —GoldRingChip 15:21, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter messageEdit

 Hello, Pvmoutside. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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AZ-9 PictureEdit

Hi, I'd just like to ask why my picture was removed. —Astroleaf15 17:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know...I didnt remove it.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@Astroleaf15: That was me. The image doesn't give any context so there are no state boundaries, municipalities, or anything by which the viewer can understand what it's a picure of. Maybe you could tweak it (and the others you've made, e.g., Alabama) to add that necessary context? —GoldRingChip 18:46, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Speciesbox parametersEdit

Hi, I'm not sure whether you've caught up with some recent activity at Template talk:Speciesbox, but we were trying to implement the documented behaviour of the template, namely that |taxon= had priority over |genus=+|species=, which in turn had priority over the page title. However, the updated template produced a lot of errors, because there were many pages with |taxon=+|species= and other unexpected (at least by me!) combinations, so I had to revert the updates. I see that you have been using |taxon=+|species=, e.g. at Crested bellbird. For now, we're just tracking unexpected combinations in the "Speciesbox" categories at Category:Taxobox cleanup and fixing them. Eventually these combinations won't work. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Peter for clarifying. So what is the preferred method now for listing species in speciesboxes? should I list them as taxon putting genus and species together, both for monotypic genera and for genera with multiple species?....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:35, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
It's entirely a matter of choice. The point of providing |taxon= was to make it more familiar to editors who mainly use {{Automatic taxobox}} which only uses |taxon=. I tend to use |taxon= most of the time; Plantdrew prefers the two parameters. For a monotypic genus, there's a logic to
| genus = ...
| parent_authority = ...
| species = ...
| authority = ...
I think one source of confusion for some editors when using two parameters is that in a manual taxobox, |species= gives the (abbreviated) binomial, whereas here it's just the specific name/epithet. The really important thing is not to mix |taxon= with |genus=+|species=, because (a) this can lead to inconsistency (b) it confuses the automatic italicization code. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:11, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
I prefer |genus=+|species= because it always works. When a taxonomy template has a disambiguator, |taxon= will not work. If people who aren't very familiar with the Species are consistently seeing |taxon=, they may have trouble figuring out how to make the Speciesbox work when the taxonomy template is disambiguated. Plantdrew (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
@Plantdrew: yes, I understand this rationale. I do actually want to get |taxon=genus (disambig) species working, but it will be easier to do this if more of the code is converted to Lua first, because text processing is then much easier. The ideal, it seems to me, is that |taxon= and |genus=+|species= work in exactly the same way.
Interestingly, the largest number of clean-ups I've done are of the combination |taxon=genus+|species=specific name/epithet. I think this is attractive because {{Automatic taxobox}} for the genus would have |taxon=genus only, so to convert to {{Speciesbox}} it seems natural to just add |species=specific name/epithet. This does suggest that editors approach {{Speciesbox}} from {{Automatic taxobox}}, although the former has almost four times as many transclusions. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


It looks as though you first put the taxonomy template at Wiedomyini instead of Template:Taxonomy/Wiedomyini. I tried to get it deleted quickly, but it was declined. Could you fix it please? Peter coxhead (talk) 17:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Peter...I don't have the capability to delete articles, so I blanked it....its as far as i can go.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:53, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
If you put {{db-g7|rationale=created in error}} on the page, it will get deleted. For rapid deletion it has to be done by the person who created it. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Preview for automatic taxoboxes/speciesboxesEdit

Just a small thing: could you preview rather than saving to check first if a taxon doesn't yet fit into the automatic taxobox system? Otherwise it gets added as a Category:Automatic taxobox cleanup alert. Thanks! —Hyperik talk 15:30, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, this is really helpful. Preview and then create the taxonomy template before saving the article. I spend a lot of time doing null edits on perfectly good articles to remove them from the cleanup tracking categories. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:43, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

2018 Pennsylvania's 5th congressional district special election listed at Redirects for discussionEdit

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect 2018 Pennsylvania's 5th congressional district special election. Since you had some involvement with the 2018 Pennsylvania's 5th congressional district special election redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. VietPride10 (talk) 07:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Christmas GreetingsEdit

  Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2019!

Hello Pvmoutside, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2019.
Happy editing,

Darwinek (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

January 3, 2018Edit

Yes, but you must take discernment on days such as these. I spent two hours editing pages to account for the change. It's impossible to do it all at once. Either way, something is going to be incorrect: either a page with outdated information or a page that has added information too early. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicholemacgregor (talkcontribs) 17:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Page move request 2Edit

Hello Pvmoutside, could you move the monotypic taxon page Cariacotrichea to its genus page Cariacothrix? The genus page is currently a redirect with minimal page history. Thanks, Loopy30 (talk) 13:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

all set....Pvmoutside (talk) 23:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks again, Loopy30 (talk) 02:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Ways to improve Glossy-backed drongoEdit

Hello, Pvmoutside,

Thanks for creating Glossy-backed drongo! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:-

This has been tagged for one issue.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Boleyn}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Boleyn (talk) 20:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Ways to improve Fanti drongoEdit

Hello, Pvmoutside,

Thanks for creating Fanti drongo! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:-

This has been tagged for one issue.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Boleyn}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Boleyn (talk) 20:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Automated taxobox parametersEdit

The only parameter for genera upwards in an Automatic taxobox is |taxon=. Parameters like |genus= which you added to some are ignored completely, and the taxobox falls back on the page name. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

plantdrew left a note for me to use genus as much as possible for the auto taxoboxes (including monotypics) which one is it?....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:06, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Maybe he meant {{Speciesbox}}. This accepts either |taxon= (e.g. |taxon=Panthera leo) or |genus=+|species= (e.g. |genus=Panthera+|species=leo). Plantdrew and I have opposite preferences; I prefer to use |taxon= in both kinds of automated taxobox, because I'm less likely to make a mistake. He prefers to use |genus=+|species= in {{Speciesbox}}, because at present there are situations in which you have to. But |taxon= is required in {{Automatic taxobox}}. |genus=, |species=,|familia=, etc. are completely ignored, as you can test by giving them nonsense values. It falls back on the page name. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:27, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, at one point, you were putting |taxon= (with the genus name) and |species= (with the epithet) in Speciesboxes. It worked, but was inelegantly mixing the two systems that function in Speciesboxes (i.e. either |genus=+|species= or |taxon= with the binomial). As tracking categories were implemented |taxon=+|species= was being flagged as an error. You can use whichever system you prefer in Speciesboxes (but |taxon= will not work when the taxonomy template for the genus is disambiguated). I hope that didn't leave you more confused. Plantdrew (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Aside: when {{Speciesbox}} is converted to Lua, |taxon=genus (disambig) epithet will be made to work, but as Plantdrew says, it doesn't now. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
That clarifies....Thank-you both...Pvmoutside (talk) 11:55, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
so here's an issue that came up today....subfamilies....some groupings have them, some do not. If a particular family grouping has some subfamilies listed, while others do not is it better to ignore the entire group and move to family only?....otherwise if you use taxon on the subfamilies you have, it will chain it as a genus, rather than a subfamily, and how does one fix Brachyphylla and Carolliinae.....Pvmoutside (talk) 12:55, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The taxoboxes in the two srticles were wrong because the rank was set to genus in a couple of subfamily taxoboxes; now corrected. Whether or not you include subfamilies in taxonomy templates is a matter of choice, but I would always use them if there are good refs to support them. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're asking. Is it that some genera in a particular family show a subfamily, and other genera in that same family lack a subfamily? I would strive for consistency; either include subfamily for all genera or for none (with that decision being based on whether or not a good source for the subfamily classification can be fond). Plantdrew (talk) 16:58, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


Hello. Help improve for article Maureen Wroblewitz. Thanks you. Arina56 (talk) 12:15, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Ignore. User is a sock puppet. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

question about automatic taxoboxEdit

Hi Pvmoutside--I know you regularly edit taxonomy templates, and I have a question about one. I've been working on the Megabat article, and its superfamily is a redirect to that article, as it is the only family of the superfamily. I believe there's a way to make the superfamily Pteropodoidea simply bolded in the taxobox rather than as a link, but I can't find that documentation readily. I know how to do it with the taxobox template--do you know how to do it with the automatic taxobox? Enwebb (talk) 16:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Enwebb, everything looks OK in the auto taxoboxes....but if you needed to make changes, you would link to the actual existing article, add a bar, then type in the article you'd like to name. For example Megabat should go first, then the bar, then Pteropodoidea

Lack of edit summaries; unexplained blanking of substantive contentEdit

Hi Pvmoutside. The recent series of edits at blue nuthatch is concerning. Much of it starts and ends with the lack of an edit summary. There really are very few types of edits that are so self-explanatory that they don't require one, and even ones that might fit that characterization are probably better with one as a matter of basic transparency and good practice. Looking at your edit in two parts, I'll start with where you are removing automatic infobox parameters that are currently explicit. Okay. Fine. Except that it's really not.

For one, unless you can explain how it's substantive, it registers to me as a mostly useless edit—like removal of whitespace or bypassing a redirect with no change in display. Putting that aside, the fact that what you're doing is simply removing automatic parameters is not at all clear and far from self-explanatory. After seeing the unexplained removal of parameters pop up in their watchlist, and then reviewing the diff, many editors, in other words, in order to understand that your mute edit was not blanking substantive content, would have to compare the infobox's output display against the version before your edit. That is a bad result.

Rather than just vexxing and likely wasting of other user's time, much more problematic is the second part of your edit, which was the mangling of the infobox image caption. That's just registers as unexplained blanking. Without an edit summary to reveal any reason behind it, even if a poor one, it requires explanation, and an editor would not be unwarranted in treating it as vandalism. Having looked at some of your edits, I'm sure it's not done in bad faith, so playing devil's advocate my bet is that this caption change arises from some misplaced idea that stating the name of the species in relation is redundant, even if your removal left a horrible sounding, awkward fragment behind.

In any event, having seen you do that, I didn't have to go back far in your edits to find your mangling of other captions, as well as all manner of other types of unexplained blanking that could not be farther from self-explanatory—that likewise, without an edit summary explanation, register as simply blanking that you should expect to be reverted on sight, if not treated as vandalism by content creators finding substantive content simply removed for no discernible reason. For example, these unexplained, edits to Sphaerodactylus macrolepis. Why? I'm sure it's not vandalism but sure looks like it in a vacuum, and certainly something that should be reverted in the absence of explanation.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

thanks for the inquiry. On your two issues: First the auto taxoboxes, a number of us are moving species in all taxa from a standard taxobox to an automatic taxobox. It helps a lot in maintenance, having to avoid duplicate work, and provides a more complete and standardized classification. Regarding removing the actual species or common name from the image caption, it avoids duplication with the title. The species is already identified in the title, and i'm standardizing as most species images are not identified, unless there are multiple species on the imqge, or the species is classified to subspecies, for example, in which I leave the caption.....Pvmoutside (talk) 13:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Because the user is fighting a war on binomial nomenclature and believes they have special dispensation to pursue their righteous cause. Prepare to see more of them on your watchlist. Notice there is no response on lack of edit summaries, they want lots of attention to their trivial or damaging edits. cygnis insignis 13:48, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, that is entirely non-reponsive to my inquiry Pvmoutside. Standardizing infoboxes in no way explains why you are not leaving edit summaries when doing so, or addresses any of the problems I have identified with failing to do so, including the waste of other user's time, the fact it's not self-explanatory; nor the any reason behind the other blanking your engaging in without any explanation, such as the example diff I provided to an article change where you removed a sentence from the lead identifying other locations the species inhabits, and the see also section in its entirety. What does that have to do with standardizing infoboxes? In sum, you have not responded at all to the thrust of my post. As to the image captions, it is not redundant; any removal, even if warranted (and I disagree it is here) must be done in a manner that does not leave behind a mess, which is what your edit did--leaving the fragment "at Cibodas Botanical Garden, Java, Indonesia" as the caption; and the fact that other articles don't contain some type of content, which you provide as the seeming basis for the removal of the caption, is not a valid rationale for that removal when it is included. You might as well have said 'most articles don't contain good citations so I'm removing citations from these FAs because...standardizing'. Same logic.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, that may be my fault, I pointed out that changing or removing content with citations to say something else is fraudulent, so removing the citation as well solves that problemette. cygnis insignis 18:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC) Oh again, I see you were only suggesting that as an absurd comparison, but they actually do that as they go out on their forays. cygnis insignis 19:03, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
so i'm confused.....the only thing i'm removing is the duplicate species name as listed on the title page. I hardly call that a mess....please clarify....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Just to be clear, Pvmoutside asked me to look at this thread.

There seem to be two issues which are getting confused here:

  • Pvmoutside's failure to leave edit summaries. This is a valid point; we can all forget (well, I certainly sometimes do), but it's clearly policy that editors should leave edit summaries, so this seems a fair comment.
  • Whether Pvmoutside made unjustified edits. I can only say those I've looked at seemed fine to me. Indeed, as regards redundancy in captions, I would have gone further (and have done so in one case). We don't repeat the clear topic of the article in section headings and captions. In an article about the blue nuthatch we don't have a section title "Taxonomy of Sitta azurea", so nor do we say under the image in a taxobox with the heading "Blue nuthatch" that it's a blue nuthatch – what else would it be?

Peter coxhead (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

What edit summary could they use when reverting me while try to sort out their mess, which they did by creating an article with fake content? cygnis insignis 20:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
@Cygnis insignis: accusing a fellow editor of creating fake content is inappropriate, and a breach of WP:AGF. Please supply a dif so we can see what edit you are referring to. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Not a diff, I suppose I have to gather all those now, but lets start with Pandion cristatus cygnis insignis 21:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
@Cygnis insignis: I'm not defending all of Pvmoutside's actions (e.g. lack of edit summaries, some moves where there could usefully have been discussions first), but can you explain what exactly Pvmoutside did at Eastern osprey that you object to so strongly? As an outsider here, I'm really struggling to understand why there's so much hostility. If you want to object to not getting a response, you have to be really clear as to the issue. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
They cut and pasted the western to eastern, changed the things were going to look obviously wrong and left the impressive looking bits that referenced an australian taxon to a californian source (for example). As I say I'm going backwards, the response from the user to my pointing this out was, as I snidely inquired, the hostility of a revert that could obviously not contain an edit summary: edit warring As the first diff showed, I was in the process of sorting it out. I went and did something else when no one batted an eye. I'm not hostile, if that is what you mean, I do my best to get out of the way of their 'confused editing' because they regard my contributions as an opportunity to troll me. cygnis insignis 22:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding @Fuhghettaboutit:'s complaints. Converting from a manual taxobox to an automatic taxobox typically involves deleting a couple hundred bytes from an article. Parameters for all the taxonomic ranks which are necessary in manual taxoboxes aren't even parsed by automatic taxoboxes; retaining unparsed parameters kind of defeats the point of the automatic taxobox system. While edit summaries should be given, my usual edit summary in these cases is "convert taxobox to speciesbox". I often make some additional minor changes as part of a single edit with that summary (including deleting uninformative image captions). If an image caption in an infobox merely repeats the title of the article, it should be omitted (see WP:CAPLENGTH). While that guidance doesn't necessarily indicate that the name should be omitted if there is other information in the caption, captions need not be full sentences (WP:CAPFRAG). There was a recent discussion that was an RfC or was advertised at Village Pump; I can't find it now, but it concerned whether a caption in the infobox of a biography article should include some/none/all of: the subjects name, the date of the photo, or the location of the photo. Responses were all over the place; I don't think there is any solid consensus about whether name/location should be included in a caption. In the case of blue nuthatch, I don't think the location of the photo really added anything to the article, and I would've deleted the entire caption if I'd been editing it myself. Image captions for birds REALLY should include the sex of the individual depicted; I presume the blue nuthatch shown is male, but I'm not a birder am not confident enough of my judgement to put the sex in the caption itself if it's not given in the description on Commons.

@Cygnis insignis:, while I share your distaste for vernacular name titles, and agree that the copy/paste creation of Pandion cristatus was botched, I'm not clear what that has to do with Pvmoutside's use of edit summaries. As far as I can tell, you're referring to removal of unused references in this diff; while the copy/paste creation was inappropriate, the unused references shouldn't have been pasted over in the first place, so removing them was fine. If there are other cases where Pvmoutside has removed references (especially in service of a war on binomials), I'd like to know. If you'd like to prosecute a war on vernacular names, I'll join you, but I think that will be more successful by establishing a solid consensus among non-Tree of Life editors that WP:COMMONNAME doesn't mean "use a vernacular name if one exists", and that said consensus is best established via a precedent of Requested Moves away from vernacular name title. Over the last 3-4 years, RMs have gone vernacular->scientific far more than the other way around. And there are still some pretty low-hanging fruit of terribly misleading vernacular name titles (pig should be domestic pigs, not the genus Sus, cardinal (bird) overwhelming means Cardinalis cardinalis, not Cardinalidae). Plantdrew (talk) 23:09, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis:, in my taxonomy and auto taxobox travels, I try to be conservative in changes for vernacular and scientific name changes. There are many examples where vernacular names were listed and I changed them to scientific ones (see Sphaerodactylus macrolepis for example.) Also if someone has a strong feeling to revert one of my vernacular name changes, I usually leave them alone. I try to use vernacular name changes only when the sources I use only list one vernacular name. Regarding "Pandion cristatus", Wikiproject birds uses the IOC as both an English name reference and a taxonomic one. The IOC lists both the Eastern Osprey and Western Osprey as distinct species, where most other taxonomic authorities list only the one. I was trying to be thorough. What is now the Western Osprey article had a lot of good and appropriate content that could be carried over to the new Eastern Osprey one. I thought I deleted references that pertained only to the Western species, and I apologize if there were ones that weren't. Regarding Palestine viper, both the reptile database and the iucn referred to the single vernacular name, so I changed it. I did not look to the discussion page, which was an oversight, and again, I apologize. In the hundreds of changes I've done, if we are only talking about a few controversial ones, I think my odds are still pretty good. Again, I'm sorry if i'm not batting 100% for Plantdrew mentioned, If you'd like to prosecute a war on vernacular names, I'd also like to join that larger discussion.... Pvmoutside (talk) 01:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Syntax highlighter recommendationEdit

I strongly recommend the syntax highlighter gadget. You can enable it in Preferences -> Gadgets. It will make it easier to see when you have put dozens of instances of italic markup in the wrong place (oops!). I have cleaned up that one for you, along with a couple of other templates where italics were not applied correctly. Happy editing! – Jonesey95 (talk) 10:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit summariesEdit

In terms of this message you left on my talkpage [11]: You've been advised several times to select "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" on the Editing tab of your user preferences, so "forgetting" is not an excuse, especially when it is clear you are not forgetting, but rather only using edit summaries when it suits you.

Also, it's not particularly collaborative or transparent to delete (rather than archive) posts from your talkpage which are in response to another person who has pinged the respondent: [12]. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and edit summaries and talkpage posts and discussions are a vital part of collaboration. -- Softlavender (talk) 19:53, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I only delete messages when they are insulting and innacurate and would lead someone who is looking for help a wrong impression about who I am as a person…..Pvmoutside (talk) 20:22, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
I also did see now the prompt message and have selected it. I usually don't look thru automated messages, having been here a while, so sorry about that. FYI, I have done over 60 edits today, maybe 5 of them I forgot to add an edit summary, so your statements are exaggerated at best. I also don't choose to use things "to suit me", so please, again, tone down your tone, you should try to be more collaborative. I really am trying to be helpful....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)


What is your motivation for moving articles on species to a common name? No doubt you regard it as an improvement, that is not what I am asking about, my query is about why is that an improvement. There are several reasons advanced that I am already aware of, the haven't persuaded me, are you able to justify your primary focus? cygnis insignis 15:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Cygnis insignis, I only move articles from scientific name to common name when there is only one common name referenced from the references I use. These days, it is usually in reptiles with the reptile data base and the IUCN. If there are multiple common names, I've switched many to scientific names. Wikipedia is not a scientific reference, but one used generally by the public. Most of the species readily recognized use common names, I'm simply following that format unless the wikiproject objects (ie many of the I vertebrate ones, plants, etc.) If a wikiproject uses both scientific names and common ones, then the question become at what point does one use which.....some sort of at least minimal criteria would need to be developed rather than using personal judgement to decide which one to use in my opinion.... …..Pvmoutside (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree cygnis insignis 16:57, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm going to move this discussion to tree of life wikiproject to see if it generates anything...Pvmoutside (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

lack of qualifiersEdit

when you do a one liner of australian reptiles - reptile in australia - and have no qualifier it can be quite a problem, australia is a big place - the reptile database has clear indication of the places where found - it would really help in your one liner/lead to actually identify the state or region(s) they are found - thanks. JarrahTree 15:46, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Change in redistrictingEdit

I think, but am not sure about, we don't need to break up continuous terms of members of the house when their district locations change with redistricting. I've just modified Illinois's 1st congressional district, with that in mind. What do you think? —GoldRingChip 13:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Looks fine!...Pvmoutside (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Echinops (genus) listed at Redirects for discussionEdit

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Echinops (genus). Since you had some involvement with the Echinops (genus) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Plantdrew (talk) 18:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Crenadactylus ocellatusEdit

is the most common name, the first reference I opened said "Clawless Gecko". Please reverse your move, and I will add some sections while the book is open. cygnis insignis 17:24, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

so the first reference refers to it as "western clawed gecko" which both the reptile database and the iucn refers to occidentalis. The reason why I moved to southwest clawless gecko was because the reptile database refers to it as such, and the genus page already listed it that way. If you feel strongly ocellatus should be changed to the scientific name, go ahead and change it. I won't object. To me, there is enough evidence to leave the English name in place....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
How is this an improvement? You are moving pages away from the common name using a source that others pointed out just invents vernacular to fill that parameter. I am not proposing to chase around undoing your unilateral actions, you own you contributions and are accountable for them cygnis insignis 18:11, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
so I ended up writing up some species in the genus Cnemaspis discovered in 2018 today. They only have the reptile database as sources I can easily find. There are 2 groups of authorities that discovered species last year in the genus. One group, Sayyed, Pyron, & DiLeepkuma lists English names, the other, Cyria, Johny, Umesh, & Palot, 2018 does not. So it looks like the actual authorities make up a scientific name, at least in the reptile database, because the species are all consistent in that manner. It does not appear the reptile database makes up the names. The question then becomes are the authorities a sufficient reference for English names or do we need something else?....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
(I was invited to comment here.) My view is that these issues are best settled by applying all the principles in WP:AT. Google hits aren't everything, but for me "Crenadactylus ocellatus" gets 20 times as many hits (about 3,400) as "southwestern clawless gecko" (about 170), so there's no question that the scientific name is more recognizable. Given the potential confusion between names like "western clawless gecko", "southwestern clawless gecko" and "clawless gecko", I can't see that the English name is precise either. So I support the use of the scientific name. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
thanks Peter.....where can one look up the number of Google hits for an article? …..Pvmoutside (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
It's just the number shown at the top of a (non-mobile view) Google search for a term. It displays as e.g. "About 6,830 results (0.70 seconds)". Plantdrew (talk) 19:31, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Peter, For me, "Southwestern clawless gecko" gets 5720 hits, "Crenadacylus ocellatus" gets 3920 hits...Pvmoutside (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Pvmoutside - I only get 174 hits for "Southwestern clawless gecko" - I suspect you have omitted to to enclose the phrase in double quotes. - Aa77zz (talk) 20:28, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
@Pvmoutside: yes, you have to include the ".." to search for the exact phrase; just searching for the three words will give you many more hits. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Pvmoutside, and others, I'll try and get a little more some content in there, but expect that needs visit to the library. There is a gecko on my kitchen window every evening. I watched her growing up and filling out, leaping across the window to catch moths, negotiating a vertical surface as if the laws of gravity were optional. They are charming creatures :) cygnis insignis 18:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
NP Cygnus....i'm looking forward to reading what you find....unfortunately we have no geckos up here in Massachusetts, so I'm stuck with reading about others exploits!....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the Reptile Database invents vernacular names. There are many species that have no vernacular names listed, and a few that have multiple vernacular names (e.g. Pogona minor). Reptile Database doesn't give sources for their vernacular names, which is unfortunate. New species of birds and mammals pretty routinely have vernacular names invented by their describers and included in the original description. That practice exists for other vertebrates, but is less prevalent.

Pvmoutside, you are basically the only active ToL editor who doesn't work exclusively on birds that is enthusiastic about using vernacular names for article titles (this thread has no longer very active editor who was quite enthusiastic about vernacular name titles questioning that practice).

Vernacular titles are a cargo cult. They're used because that's how Wikipedia does it without really thinking about why Wikipedia does it, or what would best serve our readers. Sometimes vernacular titles hinder readers; sometimes they have no advantage in recognizability, and sometimes readers will be comfortable with the scientific name anyway.

There are vernacular name titles that make it more difficult for readers to find the information they seek; cardinal (bird), turkey (bird) and pig cover genera and families, when there is clearly one particular species that readers are looking for. These titles haven't really been questioned by Wikipedians, because hey, that's three less articles that are using scientific names for titles (meanwhile, readers leave comments on the talk pages wondering why there isn't information about the species they are interested in). People in North America searching for "beaver" (which is fine at that title) probably want North American beaver, a term that is extremely unlikely to be searched for, less likely than "American beaver" or "Canadian beaver". Readers may find their way to the species article from the genus article, but I don't see any major harm from using the Castor canadensis as a title instead of the least common of three vernacular names.

In a lot of cases, I don't see much concern on Wikipedia, or by scientists who coin vernacular names as to whether the names are actually helpful to a layperson. Barahona amphisbaena? Most people have no clue what an amphisbaena is, and if they do have a clue, they're probably not going to be put off by scientific names. We have a fork of dorcopsis (as a vernacular name) and Dorcopsis (genus). Again, very few people have ever heard of a dorcopsis, and these were also called "forest wallabys" before MSW people got their hands on them. MSW common names are frequently TERRIBLE; they overrode many pre-existing vernacular names because they weren't phylogenetically correct; maybe dorcopsises aren't "true wallabys", but "wallaby" is a word that is more recognizable and it isn't totally off base phylogenetically. And English is full of vernacular names that are totally off base phylogenetically and it really don't confuse anybody; prairie dog, starfish, jellyfish. Using a genus name as a part of a "common" name and translating the epithet doesn't help anybody (especially when the epithet is an eponym; e.g "Slater's amphisbaena").

We do write Wikipedia for a general audience. However, Wikipedia is full of niche topics that are mostly of interest to specialists. Laypeople already recognize some scientific names, even if they may not recognize them as such: rhinoceros, boa constrictor, fuchsia, hippopotamus (and "E. coli" and "C diff", "MRSA" as abbreviations). Everybody knows dinosaurs by their scientific names. Getting into more specialized audiences (but not taxonomists), gardeners are likely to recognize more plants by scientific names than the general public (gladiolus, zinnia). People who keep fish and reptiles as pets may use vernacular names in everyday speech, but are more likely to be aware that vernacular names can be imprecise and the scientific name is a more useful search term. However, the majority of species are of interest only to taxonomists, or people who are so specialized that they are more likely to know an organism by it's scientific name than any vernacular name. Newly discovered species with well-crafted press releases may attract a brief surge of attention to a vernacular name, but if a species was unknown before the 21st century, it's not likely to have any long term interest for the layperson (and in some cases, the scientific name of a new species can drive public interest; e.g. Neopalpa donaldtrumpi). Taxonomy is really the only area of Wikipedia where there is a mentality that the precise name used by people who are deeply interested in the particular field is to be avoided (largely because COMMONNAME is a term of art in both taxonomy and Wikipedia, with somewhat different meanings). We have patella (not kneecap), fluoxetine (not Prozac), and (486958) 2014 MU69 (which survived a move request to "Ultima Thule"). People are able to navigate to those articles just fine via redirects, and search engine algorithms.

Birds are a very special case, where the vernacular names are tied to a particular species concept, and are thus more precise than scientific names. With many of the articles that have vernacular name titles, the names are coined by scientists (without the order provided by the IOC) and not really used at all by laypeople. You've been using vernacular names as titles, when you can only find a single name. I think as species become better and better known, they tend to accumulate more vernacular names. However, at some point, there's a threshold where a species is so well known that pretty much everybody knows it by a single common name. That threshold is what we should be aiming for in titling articles, not species that are so poorly known that only one scientists has bothered to coin a vernacular name for them.

Some things I think are good practice in considering vernacular names title. WP:GOOGLETESTs have flaws, but if a vernacular name performs poorly against a scientific name, it's not a good choice. If taxonomic specialists were unaware of the existence of a species before the 21st century, laypeople certainly don't care about it; there's no reason to prefer a vernacular name coined in the original description. If databases that record multiple vernacular names only show a single one, that is a red flag for a poorly known species. If a vernacular name doesn't contain a word that is readily recognizable to a layperson as referring to a kind of organism, it's not really a helpful title for readers.

Plants do use vernacular name titles sometimes. While 99% of plant articles use scientific names, almost half of the taxa in the 1000 most viewed articles use vernacular title (I've compiled an analysis at User:Plantdrew/Holarrhena pubescens). And the highly viewed articles that don't use vernacular titles provide evidence that readers are able to find them anyway, via redirects and search engine algorithms. There are a small number of very highly viewed articles (not just plants) where vernacular name titles make a great deal of sense. There are many other cases where vernacular titles don't really help readers at all. Plantdrew (talk) 19:26, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

An excellent mini-essay which should be preserved for future use! Peter coxhead (talk) 20:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree a very comprehensive informative piece. I'll start using the google search for choosing which name to use, whether it be vernacular or scientific. My preference is still to use vernacular if they are close, since most readers are not scientists. As you've also said, many articles i'm creating don't get a lot of hits anyway, so in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter much. I'll slightly disagree with you I that there are occasions where a vernacular name is created in recent years where it is more popular than the scientific....namely in birds and other higher order organisms (i.e. Tapanuli orangutan and other primates in the example you cite above. Keep on working on me Plantdrew......Pvmoutside (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
When I was thinking about new species, I was thinking mostly about range-restricted endemics that haven't been discovered previously simply because an expert has never been to the area where they occur before. That's the situation for most new plant species (and many insects, amphibians and reptiles). For birds and large mammals, new species are maybe more often known populations (possibly range restricted) that haven't had their DNA looked at previously and are newly split from a previously known species. Large animals (say over 1 kg? 100g?) will attract more interest from the general public. And birds are a special case; because of both IOC regulation of names, and there being a community of enthusiasts who view observing every known species in the wild as a goal to strive for (and said community has a strong preference for vernacular names). I'm working on polishing up what I wrote above and turning it into an essay. Plantdrew (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)


that was all over naming?

please when creating articles about biota in australia could you move on from found in Australia to something more specific? Australia is too generic, specially for the biota project - regions or states or locations really help assessment in the Australian biota project - thanks... JarrahTree 00:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

yep....already being done in my last group. It was pointed out you Aussies wanted something more specific, so I did it by state (i.e. Western Australia, New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, etc)….Pvmoutside (talk) 10:51, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
we aussies in AGF I am not sure its the issue - it could be for anywhere on the planet - country is usually not tight enough to identfiy occurrence - when an item of biota is labelled in australia on the main space, and then in the talk page nothing is tagged at all - it can be easily lost...JarrahTree 04:10, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
a very good example - - as entered australia - yet the actual map shows western australia - please try... JarrahTree 00:40, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
that was created a couple of months ago before your request. After your request was made, states have been added to new articles.... Pvmoutside (talk) 01:20, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Access dateEdit

Access date is an informative parameter, that's why it is included in the citation templates—it allows a reader to assess whether information is up to date or not. Now you have been adding citations to the Reptile Database with access date 20 October 2015. This is unlikely to be correct, and is 3.5 years off. Herptile systematics is evolving quite fast, so you easily end up making incorrect claims about the content of the source at a specific date (as far as you are not accessing an archived copy of the database). I recommend using the actual access date. Cheers, Micromesistius (talk) 03:25, 20 April 2019 (UTC)


If you use "Present" as the second parameter in {{USCongressOrdinal}}, then after each election, we only have to change those districts whose members changed (and, of course, the setting for "Present" once in {{USCongressOrdinal}}). E.g.: {{USCongressOrdinal|116|Present}}GoldRingChip 12:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

That's excellent...thank-you!.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:18, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
You're welcome. I've just edited the template so "{{USCongressOrdinal|Present}}" will return "Presentth". —GoldRingChip 17:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
However, I now realize that just having one paramter as "Present" as in "{{USCongressOrdinal|Present}}" will cause problems when the 117th Congress starts because then it will just return the 117th and not the 116th and 117th as a range. Did you use it that way? If not, I'll revert the template's code so nobody will do it in the future. —GoldRingChip 16:37, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
no, I've been adding 116/Present for first termers.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, good. I'll make the change. —GoldRingChip 19:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

A kitten for you!Edit

Your doing a good job, keep it up!

Catfurball (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

April 2019—Issue 001

Tree of Life

Welcome to the inaugural issue of the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Sturgeon nominated by Atsme, reviewed by Chiswick Chap
  Eastern brown snake nominated by Casliber, reviewed by Opabinia regalis
  Cactus wren nominated by CaptainEek, reviewed by Sainsf
  Bidni nominated by PolluxWorld, reviewed by DepressedPer
  Crinoid nominated by Cwmhiraeth, reviewed by Chiswick Chap

Newly nominated FAs

 Cretoxyrhina nominated by Macrophyseter
 Eastern brown snake nominated by Casliber

WikiCup heating up

Tree of Life editors are making a respectable showing in this year's WikiCup, with three regular editors advancing to the third round. Overall winner from 2016, Casliber, topped the scoreboard in points for round 2, getting a nice bonus for bringing Black mamba to FA. Enwebb continues to favor things remotely related to bats, bringing Stellaluna to GA. Plants editor Guettarda also advanced to round 3 with several plant-related DYKs.

Wikipedia page views track animal migrations, flowers blooming

A March 2019 paper in PLOS Biology found that Wikipedia page views vary seasonally for species. With a dataset of 31,751 articles about species, the authors found that roughly a quarter of all articles had significant seasonal variations in page views on at least one language version of Wikipedia. They examined 245 language versions. Page views also peaked with cultural events, such as views of the Great white shark article during Shark Week or Turkey during Thanksgiving.

Seasonal variation in page views among nine bird species
Did you know ... that Tree of Life editors bring content to the front page nearly every day?

You are receiving this because you added your name to the subscribers list of the WikiProject Tree of Life. If you no longer wish to receive the newsletter, please remove your name.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:24, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

"Woodhouse's scrub jay" Vs Woodhouse's Scrub-Jay"Edit

Why did you revert my edits? "Woodhouse's Scrub-Jay" is the spelling used by both the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, and the National Audubon Society. In fact, Wikipedia seems to be the only resource not using the hyphenated spelling.

Saberus (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

we follow the IOC for English names who do not use dashes. Also, Wikipedia does not capitalize except for place names or people's names...sorry for not letting you know beforehand....Pvmoutside (talk)
I see. Sorry for having carelessly trudged through your particular pumpkin patch. My elderly mother is a bird watcher and was annoyed that the article title was "wrong" and asked if I could fix it for her. After your reply, I found IOC's paper explaining their reasoning for doing away with hyphens in names having the form [sub-type]-[type], and walked her through their reasoning. I think she still wishes it matched NAS name, but she said, "At least there is an explanation."....Saberus (talk) 02:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Taxa named by... categoryEdit

I see you have been the taxa named by ... categories from the scientific name pages to the common name pages. This issue has been discussed several times and consensus is that common names are not taxa, and so the "taxa named by ..." category belongs on the scientific name page, even if that is a redirect. 17:02, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree; logically the "named by" categories go with the "described in year" categories, and both apply only to the scientific name, as has been agreed in the past. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:10, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Peter, I see your point about taxa named by is scientific, not vernacular. My problem is maintenance, not theoretical. So if an article page, let's take Blue Whale for instance, is placed on the scientific name page redirect, and doesn't appear on the common name article page, then an editor will notice it missing and add it, creating 2 places for the same species where the tax author name category is placed. Either someone maintains that and deletes it like was done with my edits, or the 2 links stay. I'm fearing there will be a lot of future maintenance work if you all want to keep it to scientific names on the redirects. Also, it appears many were added to common name article pages, so there is a ton of maintenance to be done on current pages if you want to continue linking to redirects...should we involve any others in this discussion?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:39, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I've also added a discussion to the WikiProject Tree of Life talk page...Pvmoutside (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Peter, the "described in year" pages all usually go now to the article page, whether it is common name or scientific....i haven't found any in the scientific name redirects.....

A lizard for you!Edit

  Slithery Lizard Barnstar
Thanks for all of your prolific page creations on reptiles and other living species. Well done! Your years of service to the Wikipedia community are highly commended. I myself am a big fan of diversity on Earth, and have created many articles on plant/animal species, languages, etc. — Stevey7788 (talk) 19:26, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!Edit

  The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
For your tremendous efforts implement automatic taxoboxes for bird articles Plantdrew (talk) 19:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


Greetings, I note that you converted a redirect to a very nice fully fledged article, here. If you wrote the article, from scratch, in situ that is absolutely fine but if the content has been copied, recovered or moved from another page then would you help me, please, with its origins so I can fix attribution? Thanks! Just Chilling (talk) 01:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Levi Lincoln Sr.gifEdit


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May 2019 Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

May 2019—Issue 002

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Cretoxyrhina by Macrophyseter
  Bramble Cay melomys by The lorax/Vanamonde93, reviewed by Jens Lallensack
  Chimpanzee by LittleJerry/Chiswick Chap, reviewed by Tim riley
  Spinophorosaurus by FunkMonk/Jens Lallensack, reviewed by Enwebb
  Trachodon mummy by Jens Lallensack, reviewed by Gog the Mild
  Megabat by Enwebb, reviewed by Jens Lallensack

Newly nominated FAs

  Spinophorosaurus by FunkMonk/Jens Lallensack
  Trachodon mummy by Jens Lallensack

Fundamental changes being discussed at WikiProject Biology

On 23 May, user Prometheus720 created a talk page post, "Revamp of Wikiproject Biology--Who is In?". In the days since, WP:BIOL has been bustling with activity, with over a dozen editors weighing in on this discussion, as well as several others that have subsequently spawned. An undercurrent of thought is that WP:BIOL has too many subprojects, preventing editors from easily interacting and stopping a "critical mass" of collaboration and engagement. Many mergers and consolidations of subprojects have been tentatively listed, with a consolidation of WikiProjects Genetics + Molecular and Cell Biology + Computational Biology + Biophysics currently in discussion. Other ideas being aired include updating old participants lists, redesigning project pages to make them more user-friendly, and clearly identifying long- and short-term goals.

Editor Spotlight: These editors want you to write about dinosaurs

Editors FunkMonk and Jens Lallensack had a very fruitful month, collaborating to bring two dinosaur articles to GA and then nominating them both for FA. They graciously decided to answer some questions for the first ToL Editor Spotlight, giving insight to their successful collaborations, explaining why you should collaborate with them, and also sharing some tidbits about their lives off-Wikipedia.

1) Enwebb: How long have you two been collaborating on articles?

  • Jens Lallensack: I started in the German Wikipedia in 2005 but switched to the English Wikipedia because of its very active dinosaur project. My first major collaboration with FunkMonk was on Heterodontosaurus in 2015.
  • FunkMonk: Yeah, we had interacted already on talk pages and through reviewing each other's articles, and at some point I was thinking of expanding Heterodontosaurus, and realised Jens had already written the German Wikipedia version, so it seemed natural to work together on the English one. Our latest collaboration was Spinophorosaurus, where by another coincidence, I had wanted to work on that article for the WP:Four Award, and it turned out that Jens had a German book about the expedition that found the dinosaur, which I wouldn't have been able to utilise with my meagre German skills. Between those, we also worked on Brachiosaurus, a wider Dinosaur Project collaboration between several editors.

2) Enwebb: Why dinosaurs?

  • JL: Because of the huge public interest in them. But dinosaurs are also highly interesting from a scientific point of view: key evolutionary innovations emerged within this group, such as warm-bloodedness, gigantism, and flight. Dinosaur research is, together with the study of fossil human remains, the most active field in paleontology. New scientific techniques and approaches tend to get developed within this field. Dinosaur research became increasingly interdisciplinary, and now does not only rely on various fields of biology and geology, but also on chemistry and physics, among others. Dinosaurs are therefore ideal to convey scientific methodology to the general public.
  • FM: As outlined above, dinosaurs have been described as a "gateway to science"; if you learn about dinosaurs, you will most likely also learn about a lot of scientific fields you would not necessarily be exposed to otherwise. On a more personal level, having grown up with and being influenced by various dinosaur media, it feels pretty cool to help spread knowledge about these animals, closest we can get to keeping them alive.

3) Enwebb: Why should other editors join you in writing articles related to paleontology? Are you looking to attract new editors, or draw in experienced editors from other areas of Wikipedia?

  • JL: Because we are a small but active and helpful community. Our Dinosaur collaboration, one of the very few active open collaborations in Wikipedia, makes high-level writing on important articles easier and more fun. Our collaboration is especially open to editors without prior experience in high-level writing. But we do not only write articles: several WikiProject Dinosaur participants are artists who do a great job illustrating the articles, and maintain an extensive and very active image review system. In fact, a number of later authors started with contributing images.
  • FM: Anyone who is interested in palaeontology is welcome to try writing articles, and we would be more than willing to help. I find that the more people that work on articles simultaneously with me, the more motivation I get to write myself. I am also one of those editors who started out contributing dinosaur illustrations and making minor edits, and only began writing after some years. But when I got to it, it wasn't as intimidating as I had feared, and I've learned a lot in the process. For example anatomy; if you know dinosaur anatomy, you have a very good framework for understanding the anatomy of other tetrapod animals, including humans.

4) Enwebb: Between the two of you, you have over 300 GA reviews. FunkMonk, you have over 250 of those. What keeps you coming back to review more articles?

  • FM: One of the main reasons I review GANs is to learn more about subjects that seem interesting (or which I would perhaps not come across otherwise). There are of course also more practical reasons, such as helping an article on its way towards FAC, to reduce the GAN backlog, and to "pay back" when I have a nomination up myself. It feels like a win-win situation where I can be entertained by interesting info, while also helping other editors get their nominations in shape, and we'll end up with an article that hopefully serves to educate a lot of people (the greater good).
  • JL: Because I enjoy reading Wikipedia articles and like to learn new things. In addition, reviews give me the opportunity to have direct contact with the authors, and help them to make their articles even better. This is quite rewarding for me personally. But I also review because I consider our GA and FA system to be of fundamental importance for Wikipedia. When I started editing Wikipedia (the German version), the article promotion reviews motivated me and improved my writing skills a lot. Submitting an article for review requires one to get serious and take additional steps to bring the article to the best quality possible. GAs and FAs are also a good starting point for readers, and may motivate them to become authors themselves.

5) Enwebb: What are your editing preferences? Any scripts or gadgets you find invaluable?

  • FM: One script that everyone should know about is the duplink highlight tool. It will show duplinks within the intro and body of a given article separately, and it seems a lot of people still don't know about it, though they are happy when introduced to it. I really liked the citationbot too (since citation consistency is a boring chore to me), but it seems to be blocked at the moment due to some technical issues.
  • JL: I often review using the Wikipedia Beta app on my smartphone, as it allows me to read without needing to sit in front of the PC. For writing, I find the reference management software Zotero invaluable, as it generates citation templates automatically, saving a lot of time.
    • Editor's note: I downloaded Zotero and tried it for the first time and think it is a very useful tool. More here.

6) Enwebb: What would surprise the ToL community to learn about your life off-wiki?

  • FM: Perhaps that I have no background in natural history/science, but work with animation and games. But fascination with and knowledge of nature and animals is actually very helpful when designing and animating characters and creatures, so it isn't that far off, and I can actually use some of the things I learn while writing here for my work (when I wrote the Dromaeosauroides article, it was partially to learn more about the animal for a design-school project).
  • JL: That I am actually doing research on dinosaurs. Though I avoid writing about topics I publish research on, my Wikipedia work helps me to keep a good general overview over the field, and quite regularly I can use what I learned while writing for Wikipedia for my research.

Get in touch with these editors regarding collaboration at WikiProject Dinosaurs!

Marine life continues to dominate ToL DYKs

  Discuss this issue

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Sent by DannyS712 (talk) using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 03:44, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

William Barnes (entomologist)Edit

I'm so glad to see this article created. I live not too far from Decatur and I see his name as an authority in Lepidoptera articles all the time. Some of the genus names created under his name match the names of small towns around Decatur and I'm always thrilled to think that I'm in the small group of people who can recognize that connection. I think you did well describing his having his name included as the authority as a courtesy, though I know from other reading that he was actively involved in the collecting and evaluating. I may go back and see if I can find references which support that. He was primarily a surgeon though.

Would you like help going through and linking his name in what must be thousands of articles? I could do it fairly quickly with AWB.

Keep up the good work. SchreiberBike | ⌨  17:10, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks...I saw the page missing when I created the McDunnough taxa named by page. The online references about Barnes were easy to find, so I wrote away... The actual McDunnough page had the statement about having his name included as a courtesy, so I carried it over to Barnes' page since it applied to him. I don't mind at all if you want to change would be great if you can link the others. I did about 30 when I created his taxa named by category page.. I've also nominated it as a DYK page, particularly regarding his collection.....Pvmoutside (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll be away from the computer for a bit, but I'll get some today and more in the next few days. There are 5,062 hits for "described by william barnes" right now and 34 pages link to William Barnes (entomologist). There will be a lot more soon. SchreiberBike | ⌨  19:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
great....Pvmoutside (talk) 23:04, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Australian ternEdit

The text in Australian tern closely matches the text in this site. Why is this not a copyright issue?S Philbrick(Talk) 15:50, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: The text mirrors wikipedia content. cygnis insignis 17:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC) P.S. That is, both texts mirror wikipedia content, the website you link did it with attribution. cygnis insignis 17:52, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Cygnis insignis, Thanks for your response.
I tend to look at the bottom of page site for copyright information and that page does have a full© at the bottom of the page. I now see that there is attribution in the middle of page.
Can I ask Pvmoutside to take a look at Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia which contains suggested wording for best practices. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:03, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
I Just recognised at a glance it was copied wiki content, having read thousands of our articles, so was looking for the notice I expected to be there. An easy mistake to make, and it is best to check. The user has been informed on several occasions about 'best practice', including copying within wikipedia, I recommend mentioning it once and leave it at that. cygnis insignis 18:29, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:AlopecoenasEdit


A tag has been placed on Category:Alopecoenas requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:14, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Sombrero ameivaEdit

The link you keep removing is Lesser Antilles,[13] not Netherlands Antilles. postdlf (talk) 19:19, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

June 2019 Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

June 2019—Issue 003

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Masked booby by Casliber and Aa77zz, reviewed by Jens Lallensack
  Rook (bird) by Cwmhiraeth, reviewed by J Milburn
  Vernonopterus by Ichthyovenator, reviewed by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Campylocephalus by Ichthyovenator, reviewed by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Unionopterus by Super Dromaeosaurus, reviewed by Ashorocetus
  Big Cat, Little Cat by Barkeep49, reviewed by J Milburn
  Félicette by Kees08, reviewed by Nova Crystallis

Newly nominated content

  Masked booby by Casliber
  Plains zebra by LittleJerry
  Letter-winged kite by Casliber

Relative WikiWork
Project name Relative WikiWork
Fisheries and fishing
All wikiprojects average
Aquarium fishes
Australian biota
Marine life
Amphibians and Reptiles
Spineless editors overwhelmed by stubs

Within the Tree of Life and its many subprojects, there is an abundance of stubs. Welcome to Wikipedia, what's new, right? However, based on all wikiprojects listed (just over two thousand), the Tree of Life project is worse off in average article quality than most. Based on the concept of relative WikiWork (the average number of "steps" needed to have a project consisting of all featured articles (FAs), where stub status → FA consists of six steps), only seven projects within the ToL have an average rating of "start class" or better. Many projects, particularly those involving invertebrates, hover at an average article quality slightly better than a stub. With relative WikiWorks of 5.98 each, WikiProject Lepidoptera and WikiProject Beetles have the highest relative WikiWork of any project. Given that invertebrates are incredibly speciose, it may not surprise you that many articles about them are lower quality. WikiProject Beetles, for example, has over 20 times more articles than WikiProject Cats. Wikipedia will always be incomplete, so we should take our relatively low WikiWork as motivation to write more articles that are also better in quality.

Editor Spotlight: Showing love to misfit taxa

We're joined for this month's Editor Spotlight by NessieVL, a long-time contributor who lists themselves as a member of WikiProject Fungus, WikiProject Algae, and WikiProject Cephalopods.

1) Enwebb: How did you come to edit articles about organisms and taxonomic groups?

  • Nessie: The main force, then and now, driving me to create or edit articles is thinking "Why isn't there an article on that on Wikipedia?" Either I'll read about some rarely-sighted creature in the deep sea or find something new on iNaturalist and want to learn more. First stop (surprise!) is Wikipedia, and many times there is just a stub or no page at all. Sometimes I just add the source that got me to the article, not sometimes I go deep and try to get everything from the library or online journals and put it all in an article. The nice thing about taxa is the strong precedent that all accepted extant taxa are notable, so one does not need to really worry about doing a ton of research and having the page get removed. I was super worried about this as a new editor: I still really dislike conflict so if I can avoid it I do. Anyway, the most important part is stitching an article in to the rest of Wikipedia: Linking all the jargon, taxonomers, pollinators, etc., adding categories, and putting in the correct WikiProjects. Recently I have been doing more of the stitching-in stuff with extant articles. The last deep-dive article I made was Karuka at the end of last year, which is a bit of a break for me. I guess it's easier to do all the other stuff on my tablet while watching TV.

2) Enwebb: Many editors in the ToL are highly specialized on a group of taxa. A look at your recently created articles includes much diversity, though, with viruses, bacteria, algae, and cnidarians all represented—are there any commonalities for the articles you work on? Would you say you're particularly interested in certain groups?

  • Nessie: I was a nerd from a time when that would get you beat up, so I like odd things and underdogs. I also avoid butting heads, so not only do I find siphonophores and seaweeds fascinating I don't have to worry about stepping on anyone's toes. I go down rabbitholes where I start writing an article like Mastocarpus papillatus because I found some growing on some rocks, then in my research I see it is parasitized by Pythium porphyrae, which has no article, and how can that be for an oomycete that oddly lives in the ocean and also attacks my tasty nori. So then I wrote that article and that got me blowing off the dust on other Oomycota articles, encouraged by the pull of propagating automatic taxoboxes. Once you've done the taxonomy template for the genus, well then you might as well do all the species now that the template is taken care of for them too. and so on until I get sucked in somewhere else. I think it's good to advocate for some of these 'oddball' taxa as it makes it easier for editors to expand their range from say plants to the pathogenic microorganisms of their favorite plant.
My favorite clades though, It's hard to pick for a dilettante like me. I like working on virus taxonomy, but I can't think of a specific virus species that I am awed by. Maybe Tulip breaking virus for teaching us economics or Variola virus for having so many smallpox deities, one of which was popularly sung about by Desi Arnaz and then inspired the name of a cartoon character who was then misremembered and then turned into a nickname for Howard Stern's producer Gary Dell'Abate. Sorry, really had to share that chain, but for a species that's not a staple food it probably has the most deities. But anyway, for having the most species that wow me, I love a good fungus or algae, but that often is led by my stomach. Also why I seem to research so many plant articles. You can't eat siphonophores, at least I don't, but they are fascinating with their federalist colonies of zooids. Bats are all amazing, but the task force seems to have done so much I feel the oomycetes and slime moulds need more love. Same thing with dinosaurs (I'm team Therizinosaurus though). But honestly, every species has that one moment in the research where you just go, wow, that's so interesting. For instance, I loved discovering that the picture-winged fly (Delphinia picta) has a mating dance that involves blowing bubbles. Now I keep expecting them to show me when they land on my arm, but no such luck yet.

3) Enwebb: I noticed that many of your recent edits utilize the script Rater, which aids in quickly reassessing the quality and importance of an article. Why is it important to update talk page assessments of articles? I also noticed that the quality rating you assign often aligns with ORES, a script that uses machine-learning to predict article quality. Coincidence?

  • Nessie: I initially started focusing on WikiProject talk page templates because they seem to be the key to data collecting and maintenance for articles, much more so than categories. This is where you note of an article needs an image, or audio, or a range map. It's how the cleanup listing bot sorts articles, and how Plantdrew does his automated taxobox usage stats. The latter inspired me to look for articles on organisms that are not assigned to any ToL WikiProjects which initially was in the thousands. I got it down to zero with just copypasta so you can imagine I was excited when I saw the rater tool. Back then I rated everything stub/low because it was faster: I couldn't check every article for the items on the B-class checklists. Plus each project has their own nuances to rating scales and I thought the editors in the individual projects would take it from there. I also thought all species were important, so how can I choose a favorite? Now it is much easier with the rater tool and the apparent consensus with Abductive's method of rating by the pageviews (0-9 views/day is low, 10-99 is med, 100-999 is high...). For the quality I generally go by the ORES rating, you caught me. It sometimes is thrown off by a long list of species or something, but it's generally good for stub to C: above that needs formal investigation and procedures I am still learning about. It seems that in the ToL projects we don't focus so much on getting articles to GA/FA so it's been harder to pick up. It was a little culture shock when I went on the Discord server and it seemed everyone was obsessed with getting articles up in quality. I think ToL is focusing on all the missing taxa and (re)organizing it all, which when you already have articles on every anime series or whatever you can focus on bulking the articles up more. In any event, on my growing to-do list is trying to get an article up to FA or GA and learn the process that way so I can better do the quality ratings and not just kick the can down the road.

4) Enwebb: What, if anything, can ToL and its subprojects do to better support collaboration and coordination among editors? How can we improve?

  • Nessie: I mentioned earlier that the projects are the main way maintenance is done. And it is good that we have a bunch of subprojects that let those tasks get broken up into manageable pieces. Frankly I'm amazed anything gets done with WikiProject Plants with how huge its scope is. Yet this not only parcels out the work but the discussion as well. A few editors like Peter coxhead and Plantdrew keep an eye on many of the subprojects and spread the word, but it's still easy for newer editors to get a little lost. There should be balance between the lumping and splitting. The newsletter helps by crossing over all the WikiProjects, and if the discord channel picked up that would help too. Possibly the big Enwiki talk page changes will help as well.

5) Enwebb: What would surprise the ToL community to learn about your life off-Wikipedia?

  • Nessie: I'm not sure anything would be surprising. I focus on nature offline too, foraging for mushrooms or wild plants and trying to avoid ticks and mosquitos. I have started going magnet fishing lately, more to help clean up the environment than in the hopes of finding anything valuable. But it would be fun to find a weapon and help solve a cold case or something.
June DYKs

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New message from Narutolovehinata5Edit

Hello, Pvmoutside. You have new messages at Template:Did you know nominations/William Barnes (entomologist).
Message added 23:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

New message from Narutolovehinata5Edit

Hello, Pvmoutside. You have new messages at Template:Did you know nominations/William Barnes (entomologist).
Message added 08:00, 25 July 2019 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:00, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Template:Did you know nominations/William Barnes (entomologist)Edit

Hello Pvmoutside. Your input at your DYK nomination has been requested, as the article still has issues that need to be resolved before it can pass. If you are unable to respond there within the next few days, the nomination may be marked for closure as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:39, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Taxa named by Andre F. MendoncaEdit


A tag has been placed on Category:Taxa named by Andre F. Mendonca requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read! Talk! 15:47, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

William Barnes (entomologist)Edit

Hey Pvmoutside. Are you still planning to continue the DYK nomination for this article? Some requests for clarification have been raised on the discussion page and your input has been requested. Please inform us if you still intend push through with the nomination, than you. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:31, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

no....the cited info is all I have...thanks for following up....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I see. So are you withdrawing the nomination? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:36, 29 July 2019 (UTC) I need to do that?....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
If you have decided to no longer pursue a nomination, you can leave a message indicating that fact. In any case I've marked the DYK nomination as withdrawn. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:48, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Levi Lincoln Jr.gifEdit


The file File:Levi Lincoln Jr.gif has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

unused, low-res, no obvious use

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the page history of each individual file for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 01:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

July 2019—Issue 004

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  List of felids by PresN
  Masked booby by Casliber
  Letter-winged kite by Casliber, reviewed by Jens Lallensack
  Plains zebra by LittleJerry, reviewed by starsandwhales
  Ornithogalum umbellatum by Michael Goodyear, reviewed by Jens Lallensack

Newly nominated content

  Letter-winged kite by Casliber
  Megabat by Enwebb
  Onychopterella by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Dvulikiaspis by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Kosmoceratops by FunkMonk
  Clussexx Three D Grinchy Glee by Hunter Kahn
  Giant golden-crowned flying fox by Enwebb
  Myxomatosis by Rabbit Vet

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Sent by ZLEA via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Thirteen years of editingEdit

  Hey, Pvmoutside. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day!
Chris Troutman (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 10Edit

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August 2019 Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

August 2019—Issue 005

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Letter-winged kite by Casliber
  Megabat by Enwebb
  Rock parrot by Casliber
  Adelophthalmidae by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Giant golden-crowned flying fox by Enwebb, reviewed by Starsandwhales
  Myxomatosis by Rabbit Vet, reviewed by Chiswick Chap
  Tylopterella by Super Dromaeosaurus, reviewed by Starsandwhales and Enwebb
  Kosmoceratops by FunkMonk, reviewed by Jens Lallensack
  Slender glass lizard by SL93, reviewed by Casliber
  Guano by Enwebb, reviewed by Chiswick Chap
  Dvulikiaspis by Super Dromaeosaurus, reviewed by Casliber
  Rock parrot by Casliber, reviewed by The Rambling Man
  Leptospirosis by Cerevisae, reviewed by Ajpolino
  Hepatitis E by Ozzie10aaaa, reviewed by Casliber
  Cardabiodon by Macrophyseter, reviewed by FunkMonk
  Clostridium tetani by Ajpolino, reviewed by Chiswick Chap

Newly nominated content

  Kosmoceratops by FunkMonk
  Western yellow robin by Casliber
  Pekarangan by Dhio270599
  Hibbertopterus by Ichthyovenator

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Sent by ZLEA via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 15:43, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Your help pleaseEdit

when you create new stubs about biota in Australia, in Australia is particularly problematic in relation to the size of the continent. It would be really appreciated if you could make the effort to identify where in Australia. Some geckos, lizards and other slithering things simply do not have the metabolisms to populate the continent, let alone even move much out of fairly limited range habitats. It helps the taggers who have to follow you who wonder where exactly in oz, the delightful little creatures actually inhabit. Thanks. JarrahTree 09:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

September 2019 Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

September 2019—Issue 006

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Kosmoceratops by FunkMonk
  Onychopterella by Super Dromaeosaurus
  Western yellow robin by Casliber
  Western yellow robin by Casliber, reviewed by Josh Milburn
  Apororhynchus by Mattximus, reviewed by Chiswick Chap
  Pekarangan by Dhio-270599, reviewed by Cerebellum
  Fritillaria by Michael Goodyear, reviewed by Chiswick Chap
  Embioptera by Chiswick Chap and Cwmhiraeth, reviewed by Vanamonde93
  Durio graveolens by NessieVL, reviewed by Dunkleosteus77
  Big brown bat by Enwebb and Gen. Quon, reviewed by Dunkleosteus77
  King brown snake by Casliber, reviewed by Dunkleosteus77
  Staffordshire Bull Terrier by Atsme, reviewed by FunkMonk
  Ambush predator by Chiswick Chap, reviewed by Enwebb
  Belemnitida by Dunkleosteus77, reviewed by Chiswick Chap

Newly nominated content

  Apororhynchus by Mattximus
  Meinhard Michael Moser by J Milburn
  St. Croix macaw by FunkMonk
  Paleocene by Dunkleosteus77
  Orcinus meyeri by Dunkleosteus77
  Snakefly by Chiswick Chap and Cwmhiraeth
  Tricolored bat by Enwebb
  Halloween darter by Enwebb

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Sent by ZLEA via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 22:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

List of birds of EuropeEdit

Hi pvmoutside. I see you've removed Hume's whitehroat and Desert whitethroat form the List of birds of Europe page. Hume's whitehroat is accepted on the Dutch list (see OK if I add that one again?Calonectris (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

.My bad.....I see the European list references the IOC as its source which includes the Humes and Desert Whitethroat (the Clements list does not)…..go ahead and add them....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:50, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
.Thanks for the reply. I'll make the adjstments. Not entirely sure on the status of desert Whitethroat. I couldn't easily find an accepted record the last time I checked, but that's also because of the poor understanding of that species complex.

It was my understanding that all bird lists on WP use IOC as their standard. Is this not correct? Calonectris (talk) 16:02, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

good you are adjusting... No, the bird lists predominately use Clements as the standard. Some lists use the IOC, others use country or regional organizations....all species taxonomy pages and English names for species pages are standardized on the IOC. Europe can use the IOC if you wish since it already states that.....I don't think there ever has been a discussion on standardization for bird lists at the wikiproject...There has been one for taxonomy and English names for the species pages.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of DiaptomididaeEdit


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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Diaptomididae requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Jalen Folf (talk) 02:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@JalenFolf: the page was clearly a mistaken copy of Template:Taxonomy/Diaptomididae – the content is not an infobox but a taxonomy template. I've quickly created a stub for the family itself. It may be a misspelling of "Diaptomidae", in which case both the article and the taxonomy template need to be redirected. However, there are scientific articles with this spelling. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
It sure looks like a spelling error that originated on Wikipedia. All the taxonbar databases at Leptodiaptomus ashlandi put it in family Diaptomidae, as do the other language Wikipedias. Diaptomididae has been in articles on Leptodiaptomus species since June 2014, and the only scientific article with that spelling was published in 2017. Plantdrew (talk) 21:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm OK with Diaptomididae speedy deletes. I assumed the family to be correct when I when I copy and pasted yesterday......Pvmoutside (talk) 00:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I agree it's a misspelling. For now, I redirected Diaptomididae and put Template:Taxonomy/Diaptomididae in Category:Unnecessary taxonomy templates (which could usefully be taken to WP:Tfd). Peter coxhead (talk) 08:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Also, there is a Category:Taxa named by Ernesto Marcus which should be deleted as it is empty....Pvmoutside (talk) 02:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Nacamier NunoiEdit

MelanieN (copying MelanieN) In two days, 10/29 & today, this new editor made 109 primary sourced additions of American Conservative Union voting scores to the ledes of recent and incumbent Republican congresspersons. I've reverted 70 and will continue until they're all rolled back but you had made the last edit to a number of those articles before "Nunoi" vandalized them. That's the only thing this editor has done under that USER name. Other editors have probably done rolled back more than a dozen more. Any suggestions on how to deal with it as he or she will probably continue to vandalize articles? Activist (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

user:goldringchip may have some ideas. It does look like a few editors are keeping up with nacamier nunoi deleting the edits.....thanks for letting me know....Pvmoutside (talk) 01:19, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

October 2019 Tree of Life NewsletterEdit

October 2019—Issue 007

Tree of Life

Welcome to the Tree of Life newsletter!
Newly recognized content

  Meinhard Michael Moser‎ by J Milburn
  Paleocene by Dunkleosteus77, reviewed by Casliber
  Clussexx Three D Grinchy Glee by Hunter Kahn, reviewed by Valereee
  Halloween darter by Enwebb and Cwmhiraeth, reviewed by J Milburn
  Deathwatch beetle by Cwmhiraeth, reviewed by Enwebb

Newly nominated content

  King brown snake by Casliber
  Paleocene by Dunkleosteus77
  Megarachne by Ichthyovenator
  List of canids by PresN
  Devils Hole pupfish by Enwebb
  Dryomyza anilis by AnuBalasubramanian
  Plasmodium knowlesi by Ajpolino
  Black coral by Aven13

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Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 03:34, 3 November 2019 (UTC) on behalf of DannyS712 (talk)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years#Past or present tenseEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years#Past or present tense. —GoldRingChip 17:06, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Shortwing picturesEdit

Hello! Someone wrote in to OTRS to point out that we have the same picture on Himalayan shortwing and on White-browed shortwing. I wouldn't know a robin from a sparrow, but I figure you might be able to sort it out.

P.S. Go Minutemen! or something. —Emufarmers(T/C) 04:09, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

List of birds of JinjaEdit

I have PRODed this page; thought you'd like to know as you've edited it. ShreiberBike also knows. Craigthebirder (talk) 01:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Page move request 3Edit

Hi Pvmoutside, as a result of the page move discussion held on the project talk page here, could you move Southern crested toad to its scientific binomial (Peltophryne guentheri)? The binomial is currently a redirect with minimal page history. Following the move, I will then merge the content of Eastern crested toad into that page as well. Thanks, Loopy30 (talk) 12:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

all set...Pvmoutside (talk) 12:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

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