Template talk:Dagger

Resolution

I like the idea of this, but is there any chance of using a higher quality image (same goes for ‡)? Regards, —WFC— 00:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I made both of them as .svg but uploading the version saved from Inkscape produces something unlike the original. There is an incompatibility between the XML rendering of wikimedia and Inkscape. The problem is that we only have 5x12 pixels to produce the image, and it has to have a transparent background so that it works inline with text against any background colour. So the anti-aliasing has to be done by using variable alpha-channel transparency on a per-pixel basis - which means we have to use a PNG.

• 
  Dagger-vector.svg (vector)
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  Dagger-200.png (png)
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  Double-dagger-vector.svg (vector)
• 
  Double-dagger-200.png (png)

If anybody wants to try to make a better quality image, both the vector and 200-px png versions of each are on Commons. --RexxS (talk) 02:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I understand (kinda). Thanks for explaining. —WFC— 04:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Not searchable

I'm not sure I understand the point of this template. For one thing, "†" is not keyword searchable because it's a PNG image. Is there some reason to prefer {{dagger}} over just typing †? Second, I suggest adding ^and to the template, since footnote/endnote symbols are usually raised. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 00:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe the point is to provide alternative text for accessibility reasons. Typically, "†" is not very helpful for a screen reader, so some alternative text is helpful. At least that's my understanding. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 01:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah ok, thanks for explaining. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 02:40, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok then from what I read the "†" symbol isn't good for screen readers because it is not part of Latin 1. But then neither is an ndash and wikipedia is pretty much replacing all the old &ndash writing with just the symbol "–". By telling us we need to use {{dagger}} does that mean we now need to also write/change million of wiki articles so they use {{ndash}} instead of a "–" ? Very strange. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I also do not see the point of this template, and the attempts at explanations given above don't make sense to me. The template seems to be only useful to the very few that are visually impaired, but useless to the rest of us. The rest of us have no way to see the Alt text (not even hovering works, and hovering is not even available on mobile devices). So it contains a hidden message only for the visually impaired, leaving the rest of us in the darkness with no idea what the dagger symbolizes. I can see that it could be a lesson for the seeing in how it feels like to be visually impaired, but I still believe it should simply work for everyone and not just the visually impaired. And also, as it was noted 10 years ago, it is not searchable, which is a really bad idea. We should use the actual symbol, †, and not display an image and misuse the alt parameter, which is meant to explain the image itself (in this case it should always say "dagger" or "dagger symbol", and it should not describe what the meaning in the specific case is, as it should only describe what a seeing person objectively sees when they see the image). This template is just not useful at all, and its existence makes people misuse it and hide information for most readers. But maybe it could be redefined somehow to be useful for everyone so existing uses don't have to be changed? Note that it should also work on mobile devices, so information only given when hovering is not useful. I'm just thinking that proper note references should be used for this sort of stuff. --Jhertel (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Using an image is a poor choice

Daggers are used within article text, and having an image instead of the actual dagger text symbol isn't a good idea—it is likely to mess up alternative displays, interfere with copy-pasting, and lots of other stuff. The impulse to improve accessibility was good, but we should find another way. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

It also doesn't show up in dark mode. Trivialist (talk) 11:11, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Sdkb: Check out the sandbox. This is the same solution used by {{Hash-tag}}. I've also made a sandbox version and test-cases for {{Double-dagger}}. This seems to work on Windows 10 with the built-in screen reader and with NVDA. I can't test JAWS, Mac OS, or Chrome OS. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 04:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion regarding image use

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Templates#Images in templates regarding how to handle templates that were created to insert images of typographic characters. These characters are now available via Unicode. Please comment there if interested, Rjjiii (talk) 16:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 14 June 2023

Change the current template to the sandbox version. See this thread for details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Templates#Images_in_templates Rjjiii (talk) 08:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done I've used abbr per the discussion there. This is not serving the function of an image but a simple abbreviation. Izno (talk) 19:53, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

(And have no objection to making this a subst-only template, someone just needs to do that work.) Izno (talk) 19:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Izno, this change appears to have caused a strange edge-case effect in at least one article. See the cladogram at List of peramelemorphs#Classification, where the space between "abbr" and "title" is being replaced by an nbsp. Also at Suidae#Phylogeny. I think the culprit may be Module:Clade, line 469, but I am just guessing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

That's probably the right line and that's fundamentally a bug in Module:Clade. It'll be fixed for this template by the below request, but Module:Clade shouldn't do that. Izno (talk) 07:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 29 June 2023

Change to the sandbox version. As of 2023, there are no longer issues with major screen readers saying these symbols. There is minimal difference between using the character alone and the character with abbr tags. The tooltip provided by abbr could encourage editors to misplace notes within the character. Rjjiii (talk) 03:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Izno (talk) 07:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)