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Template:Did you know nominations/Pablo Barragán

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 15:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Pablo Barragán

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2119 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: New and long enough, at 2223 characters; the hook isn't interesting enough, so could you suggest an alt hook? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: I've taken a look at the article, hoping to propose an alternate hook, but unfortunately nothing stands out that would meet WP:DYKINT. Even the review quote seems to be more about Schumann Quartet rather than Barragán specifically. Unfortunately the article as currently written doesn't seem to have any content that would make for non-specialist hooks, so I would recommend failing the nomination for lack of DYKINT-meeting material. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5:, I respectfully disagree. If Gerda doesn't mind, I have a suggestion:
  • ALT1: ... that clarinetist Pablo Barragán from Andalusia has performed in music festivals and played as a soloist with orchestras throughout Europe? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for the offer, but why would you prefer such a general thing - which says about nothing about the quality of those venues, and nothing about the specific gifts of this person because it's true for almost all performers with an article on Wikipedia. It's so general that he could be a jazz clarinetist or a klezmer clarinetist. Wigmore Hall is The hall for chamber musicians. - I am sorry that I don't have time for a better hook right now, just returning from travel, with an article on the Main page about a person who just died, and whom I saw a few weeks ago. His hook was specific, and I go for hooks that are true for the person in question and nobody else. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    ps: the 2011 hook for Epitaphium, remembered in the context, also mentioned Wigmore Hall: ... that Epitaphium, composed for string trio by Graham Waterhouse, is performed today in Wigmore Hall in a memorial concert for his father, the bassoonist William Waterhouse? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    Gerda, that's the trouble with non-experts trying to come up with something about something they know very little about. I was going for something more general, but if you and Grimes2 are fine with the hook being about something as specific as your hook, I'm fine with that. I will also take your word that playing Brahms in London is impressive and interesting. As your reviewer, I'm also fine with your taking as much time as you need. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you. I heard this impressive player at the Casals Forum which is possibly the #4 hall in the world, but I refrained from mentioning that event because he was part of a mixed program (watch), while in the Clarinet Quintet, as the name tells, he is the first (among equals). Playing chamber music is actually more demanding than playing with an orchestra, more individual so to speak, and it tells a lot about this person that he pursues it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    With the best will in the world, a hook that boils down to "a musician from a place played a piece by one of the most famous composers in history with other musicians in a concert hall" is about as general as you can get. If a hook relies on specialist knowledge—such as Wigmore Hall being the hall for chamber musicians, or chamber music telling you a lot about the person—to be interesting, then it's fairly clear that WP:DYKINT is not met. I'd also request that Gerda write another hook. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    I doesn't "rely" because we have links, to both the hall as well as the the music. Those who know both will be intrigued, and for others, they should still get that this person from southern Spain plays German music with a German quartet in England, which - for my taste - says the same as "all over Europe" but more precisely and therefore better. Did you watch him play? I had the alarm clock before 5 in the morning, - please have patience. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    That's ... not what "played all over Europe" means at all ... but sure, have as much time as you want (within WP:DYKTIMEOUT, ofc). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    Sorry, I was not clear perhaps. Phrases such as "all over Europe" drive me crazy as saying nothing in their general vagueness, - promotional speak. Mentioning international collaboration of Spanish and German musicians at an English place seems so much more honest and precise, and now that place is even the most highly appreciated one you could think of, and then you tell me it's not interesting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
The main issue here is that, as mentioned above, such a hook would require knowing Wigmore Hall's prestige or at least familiarity with it, which most readers would not have. It would not meet WP:DYKINT, specifically likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest (emphasis mine). Knowing Wigmore Hall, its prestige, or its context, counts as special knowledge and thus limits the hook's audience. Even with the link, the interest of the hook has to be self-evident. Without the context, readers would just think that performing at the venue was no different from performing at any venue. Many readers will not bother to click the link and learn more, so ideally, the context has to be apparent right from the get go. This is not to say that the angle is unsalvageable, just that there might be a better way to present it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 21:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I patiently disagree. Repeating: the hook speaks of collaboration between Spanish and German musicians in England (even without knowing Wigmore Hall, but our 2011 readers know Wigmore Hall already). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Financial Times : "If western chamber music has a mecca, it's London's Wigmore Hall." https://www.ft.com/content/605a4f2a-d7a8-11e0-a06b-00144feabdc0
ALT2: ... that after Pablo Barragán played the Brahms Clarinet Quintet with the Schumann Quartet at London's Wigmore Hall, a reviewer said they were "poised and searching", with Barragán as first among equals? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Fine. Grimes2 (talk) 09:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
The hook is 199 characters which is just under the length limit. It also crams in a lot of details that might distract readers. At the very least it is prime for a trimming. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
ALT2a: ... that after Pablo Barragán played the Brahms Clarinet Quintet with the Schumann Quartet at London's Wigmore Hall, a reviewer said they were "poised and searching"?
As said above, in a clarinet quintet the clarinetist is always the first among equals. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Reading the review that the hooks are based on, what I come away with is that "poised and searching" refers to the first movement of the Brahms only, as does the reference to the clarinetist being first among equals. Why isn't "first among equals" being quoted in the article when it's the phrase the reviewer wrote? (In talking about the opening string quartet by Brahms, the reviewer also uses "first among equals" for the viola in the third movement.) Phrases like "fully involving performance" (referring specifically to the quintet) or "an evening of fine music-making throughout" might be more to the point than a "poised and searching" opening movement.
However, none of these really make an interesting a hook. The problem is that there really aren't any hooky things about Barragán: this article is mostly culled from versions of his bio, almost certainly written by him or his agents and published by presenters, plus awards from when he was a young, talented clarinetist, starting out. There's nothing that stands out as unusual, or special: he sounds like an excellent clarinetist, but that in itself does not make an interesting hook. The proposed hooks are all about a single well-received chamber music concert, which is something that could be said of a great many instrumentalists: Wigmore Hall must have dozens of such concerts every year. I was puzzled by the sentence "He became a lecturer of the foundation in the Near East", and then realized that this was probably referring to the Barenboim-Said Foundation in the previous paragraph, though I think "Near East" needs a more precise location if you're going to includes this statement, and a reintroduction of the foundation's name, since this comes right after the mention of the Western-Eastern Divan Orchestra—I thought maybe Western-Eastern Divan were backed by a foundation since that's the context and it's still the same paragraph. BlueMoonset (talk) 08:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with what you said about the article, and writing more was why I asked for patience. - I don't agree with the "hookiness" requirement. I believe we should say something interesting about this person, as we do for some worms and songs, - it doesn't have to be sensational or quirky. This player is great in chamber music. It shows better by a wonderful piece in a great hall that the general statement. I don't need any reviewer's wording which is always subjective, nor "first among equals" which is normal for the clarinet in a clarinet quintet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
The issue is that WP:DYKINT is a guideline, one whose current wording was upheld via an RFC, so regardless if you agree with the requirement or not, hooks should follow it. They don't have to be "sensational" or "quirky", but they do have to be hooky, and in particular, they have to appeal to a broad audience. BlueMoonset is right in that, while Barragán is undoubtedly a talented musician, the hooks themselves are not hooky to a broad audience. If no possible or hooky hook can be proposed, then unfortunately the nomination may have to be rejected. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
You and I obviously disagree about the meaning of the word "guideline". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
It's not directly stated at WP:DYKG, but generally speaking, guidelines are standards "that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply." Those rules should only be ignored for a good reason, if there is a pressing need to do so. Given how central the interestingness criterion is to DYK and how it works, there usually isn't a good reason to be exempted from it just because you don't agree with it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I added a CD, with a review (from 31 October) and a fun trailer (in English). If you want a little piece of more general public appeal instead of the mature and extraordinary Brahms:

The arrangement was written for his teacher. I gave you the yt above, - hope you enjoyed it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

This is his actual recording and therefore promotional content. We should avoid this. Grimes2 (talk) 17:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
I heard it in concert (also the Hartmann, - will have to write that article, another piece banned by the Nazis). The hook doesn't speak about recording. I also believe that I expressed my preference for Brahms clearly. Off to choir rehearsal. Anybody out there to write a lead? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
I did a cursory google search on Barragan and found nothing non-promotional. On his webpage, there are some reviews, but they didn't bother to include any reference material, so you may need to do a search for each non-promotional item. More work, I know, but it'd help improve the article, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Without having seen this comment, I added an interview, also music ;) - Have you listened! - Getting close to midnight: no more today. Tomorrow, my first objective is to improve the Bach cantata for yesterday, second a Benjamin Britten piece for his birthday, as all last years. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
The Bach cantata is nominated for GA. I need fresh air before turning to the other task. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
There are also issues with ALT3. Again, it's reliant on specialist knowledge (most readers don't know who Bartók is, not helped by a lack of a link), and it's a "person is doing his job" hook, something that several editors suggest avoiding. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
There could be a link to Bartók in the hook, but not in the article, per music projects, to avoid a sea of blue. When a piece has an article, the creator doesn't need one, because whoever really doesn't know who Bartók is (or Mozart) could be sure to find it in the piece's article. What you do, discrediting facts around classical music as "not interesting", feels discriminating. Perhaps 4meter4 can explain Bartók to you, as Puccini before, and perhaps also Brahms. - You have been told before that musicians don't "do their job", but create something new in each performance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Bartok is a major 20th century composer who is well known and frequently performed globally. I don't think referencing him would be considered "specialist knowledge" anymore than referencing a major novelist like Charles Dickens would be. He isn't an obscure or trivial composer. I do however, think the Romanian Folk Dances by Bartok is a rather obscure work by that composer and the instrumentation alteration is a specialist set of knowledge. The hook is therefore inappropriate under our "specialist knowledge" guideline. That said, I don't think any of these hooks are particularly compelling. In general it's better in biographical hooks to attempt to find a hook based on the musicians personal life rather than focus on critical reception or specific repertoire unless there is something really shocking or unusual about a particular work or the critical reception, or if the musician played a well known piece at its world premiere. None of these really fit that description. They are all pretty boring routine kinds of content about a classical musician. We need something better than this to draw the reader in.4meter4 (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
It isn't classical music itself being uninteresting. Both 4meter and CurryTime7-24, among other editors, have proposed multiple hooks in the past about classical music and opera that met the interestingness guidelines just fine. See for example two of CurryTime's nominations about classical music performers, Harvey Shapiro and Sofiya Vakman. They are similar to your nominations in that they too are about performers, the difference is that CurryTime made an effort to make the hooks meet WP:DYKINT and not be reliant on specialist knowledge of classical music. The hooks also avoid being pure work-based hooks. To repeat: there is no discrimination against classical music the topic area, and plenty of acceptable classical music hooks have run in the past. The issue has always been the choice in hooks, wordings, and sometimes articles, rather than an issue with classical music itself.
In Vakman's case, she ran with a hook that went "... that Sofia Vakman relinquished a career as a concert pianist because a skin disorder she contracted after swimming made it painful for her to play?" instead of a hook that went "... that Sofia Vakman performed in the world premiere of Shostakovich's Six Poems by Marina Tsvetayeva, serving as accompanist to Irina Bogacheva?" The latter hook would certainly appeal to you and is probably similar to the hook you would have proposed for Vakman had you written her article, but it would simply not attract non-classical music fans. The former, while undoubtedly sad, is more likely to get readers given how it's not reliant on classical music knowledge, and is also a surprising fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
You are proving my point, do you realize that? You suggest to avoid a fact about classical music in favour of a fact about her career. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Vakman's hook was not mine and I never participated in the discussion, I only gave it as an example of what would make a good classical music hook. And sometimes, especially for biographies, what 4meter4 said is correct: it's often the case that information about personal life is hookier or more appealing to broad audiences than something directly related to their job. Once again, the example of Winston Churchill, who ran on DYK not with a hook about his long political career, but rather his little-known hobby of bricklaying. Or how when Charles III and Prince William ran on DYK, their DYK hook facts were about unusual incidents in their life rather than something directly related to them being royalty. There seems to be a fundamental conflict between how you interpret DYK's guidelines and how DYK works in practice, because you want your hooks to always be about the subject's job or claim to fame directly, whereas DYK does not require that and there's nothing against hooks not being about what a subject is best known for, if there are better options. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt I don't think you are being fair to Narutolovehinata5. What I think Narutolovehinata5 is trying to express is that hooks on biographical articles should be biographical in nature. When we make the hook more about a piece of music then the person who is the subject of the article it inherently makes for a weaker and non-interesting hook. I agree with this. When writing on people, the hook should be predominantly focused on the person and not the music. That's not saying music can't be included, it just needs to be clearly centered on the human being and not the music repertoire. Ideally, biographical hooks on classical musicians incorporate a musical fact that is biographically centered on the person and is interesting. It's a challenging balance to get just right.4meter4 (talk) 00:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
It's not just that. There's nothing wrong with having a hook that's about their performances or career, but the context or point of the hook has to be easily appreciated even by non-classical music fans. A hook that is too reliant on specialist knowledge of the field is almost always a bad hook, and this is an issue that is not only limited to opera. Ideally, we have to appeal to broadest possible audience, requiring the most common knowledge or context, instead of relying on information that even most fans of a field or industry may not know. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't think specialist knowledge is as big of a problem as the CV aspect of most of the hook proposals. "Such and such person performs this particular piece at this theatre" is a really boring "resume formula" that doesn't usually have anything interesting to say about the person as a person or as a performer. The hook should reveal something about the person beyond the kind of repertoire they are performing and where they are performing it. Likewise, I don't think critical reception blurbs are particularly great when focused on an individual piece of music. It's too esoteric in most cases, and arguably so specific as to have very limited appeal. Much better is an overall assessment of a performer across time, or a critical review that has a bigger broader overview of a performer outside of just a single piece of music. Big picture analysis is far preferable to assessment inside one particular performance. The "first among equals" critical assessment is actually the closest to this among the quotes discussed on this page as it places him in comparison to his peers. To me that's interesting and could make for a good hook. I strongly encourage adding that quote into the article and using that quote in a hook proposal. I would avoid naming specific repertoire in the hook, but focus on the assessment against his peers.4meter4 (talk) 00:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • ALT5: ... that classical clarinetist Pablo Barragán was described by one music critic as "first among equals" when compared with his peers? (this would be contingent on Gerda adding this content into the article with a citation)
This is not very creative by the music critic: "Fuchs, like Brahms, treats the clarinet as first among equals." First coined by Alfred Einstein for the Mozart Clarinet Quintet: the clarinet "predominates as primus inter pares" Grimes2 (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Ah, so it wasn't even about Barragán. I struck it.4meter4 (talk) 01:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
@4meter4: Are you okay with some variant of ALT4? The current version might be a bit long or otherwise need trimming (it's 188 characters), but would you be okay with a shorter version of it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
I think this is workable if we reverse the order and trim it to make it hookier:
Alt4a ... that Pablo Barragán, a classical clarinetist who has performed at music festivals and with the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist? 4meter4 (talk) 01:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Even better might be to trim the orchestra which isn't all that well-known outside of classical music fans living in Spain and the Middle East (most wikipedia readers on the English wiki won't know it):
Alt4b ... that Pablo Barragán, a classical clarinetist who performs with orchestras and at festivals in Europe, originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist?
I like ALT4b. @Grimes2: Are you okay with it? If you are I can give it a tick. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
I prefer ALT4a. West–Eastern Divan Orchestra is an interesting project (Israelis and Palestinians), that should get a wider audience. Grimes2 (talk) 01:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
@Grimes2: I guess as a compromise, we can leave the decision to the promoter. In any case, I've struck all hooks except ALT4a and ALT4b. The issue right now is that the jazz saxophonist part is currently not in the article, and thus would need to be added. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Upon checking the German source, the hook fact is confirmed. With the fact now in the article and Figureskatingfan not finding any other issues in her review, this should be good to go with either ALT4a or ALT4b (promoter's choice). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
    I concur, so once Gerda makes her choice, we should be good to go. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
    I have no time to argue as said above. ALT4a is not impossible, but ALT4, ALT4b and ALT5 are. Mentioning that orchestra of Israelis and Palestinians is a good idea. Mentioning jazz is a good idea because his kind of playing has a jazzy touch. Have you listened? However, "has played at festivals" means nothing, really. This one has played at the Lucerne Festival, as part of winning a prestigious prize. Also, the order is wrong:: first that orchestra, then playing at festivals. - Please polish and put the jazz fact in the article. - I think of all hooks, the original is best, saying that he is a human being going for the close personal interaction which is called chamber music, and does it on the highest level imaginable, in both literature and venue. I better unwatch this until I'm done with the two projects described above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Alt4c ... that Pablo Barragán, a classical clarinetist who has performed with the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra and at the Lucerne Festival, originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist? Grimes2 (talk) 07:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't think ALT4c would survive WP:DYKTRIM. Thinking about this more, I understand the desire to highlight the orchestra, but I suspect having too many links and information would distract readers from reading the article, so ALT4a is probably the best option and also the one that meets the guidelines the most. Adding the names of the others may already be adding specialist details that don't really add much to the main hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
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