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Template:Did you know nominations/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 06:24, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

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Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews edit

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Created by Pharos (talk) and Piotrus (talk). Nominated by Piotrus (talk) at 11:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC).

  • Article is new enough and long enough. So many sources are offline or in different languages that I will blanket AGF on them. It looks like everything is sourced inline. QPQ is done. Hook seems reasonably supported by the article and interesting. Didn't find any plagiarism or copyvio in a few searches. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:51, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
  • New review needed for ALT1, which was suggested after the discussion at WT:DYK. Yoninah (talk) 16:17, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. ALT1 is not correct. The controversy is about whether the time period can be called a Golden Age for Jews in Poland, or if that exaggerates the situation of the Jews. The controversy is not settled so don't go for one option in Wikipedia's voice. It might be better to go with something like the lead sentence at the Polish version of the page: "Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews is a proverb sarcastically describing the society of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." That sticks to the facts. Please read about the multiple meanings of the proverb here. Then consider whether, with the current worries about anti-semitism in Poland, you want to put this proverb on the main page. StarryGrandma (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I am totally ok with ALT2 as proposed by StarryGradnma, I just hope it's not too long. It should contain no controversial facts, nor be in inappropriate tone. For referencing purposes, it is described as a proverb here: [1], and as satirical, here: [2], and neither of those two terms have been disputed on talk. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Note that the Polish wiki article was created (by Piotrus) after this one was created and was edited by Piotrus and one other editors (this edit). There are still serious NPOV issues with the article (and reverts to keep the tag out), and notability/OR concerns for the full phrase (e.g. - the title of the article (present in the hook) - the phrase in this form is not present in any English language source covering this antisemitic proverb). As for what this means, this is - an "anti-Semitic phantasm" per this, a "pasquinade" that is "saying that Jews had it “too good.”" per [3], "'17th-century polemic concept condemning the rampant prevalence of infidels" per [4]. As for modern POV - Piotr Wróbel clearly makes clear the various viewpoints around this - On the one hand, most Poles firmly believe that Poland has always been one of the most tolerant countries in the world and that antiSemitism has existed only on the margins of Polish society. As far as they are concerned, there has been no such phenomenon as Polish anti-Semitism, for Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum. On the other hand, most Jews, especially those on the American continent and in Western Europe, claim that Poland is one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world. Jews have often shared the former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's belief that virtually all Poles received their anti-Semitism "with their mothers' milk."[5]. This is not merely an "exaggeration" - it was a call for action against the relative (still overall wretched [6]) safety of Jews in Poland (until 1648) vs. the rest of Europe - the "paradise" being the relative lack of persecutions. Icewhiz (talk) 06:11, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    Icewhiz, with all due respect, what is the point of your rant? Nobody except you supports either the POV or OR claims. You haven't even clearly suggested what POV issues are in the article, as in, you haven't said 'this claim is not-neutral, and this other claim is missing'. We have added the relatively fringe claim (by a minor scholar, in a minor journal) that the expression "Paradise for Jews" is anti-semitic, but it is clear as day that a ton of other scholars and media sources are using it and nobody thinks it is a major issue. Anyway, this is an issue to be discussed on artice's talk, where, I'll note, nobody supports you (so yeah, the tags removed from the article because you are in minority). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    I presented 4 sources above, not one, demonstrating the NPOV issue here (here's another - " its title is taken from an anti-Jewish text, which claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change" [7]). As for "nobody supports you" -this was pulled from the DYK queue for this reason. You yourself removed the various tags (e.g. here) - without consensus on the talk page for doing so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    All the issues / sources you have raised here have been discussed on article's talk, where nobody supports you. Many of your sources and arguments HAVE been incorporated into the text, through there is no consensus for the tags you've added, as nobody besides you wants them re-added - likely because, again, all the issues you've raised have been incorporated in the article. If you dissent against the consensus, well, there's no veto power on Wikipedia, through as I noted on your talk page, you are more than welcome to edit the article yourself. I encourage you, again, to edit the article, as well as to propose a hook that you'd think would be more neutral, if you have concerns about proposed hook ALT1 or ALT2. PS. Since you quote from [8], I will note that your quote is sadly out of context. Interested readers would be well advised to take a look at the entire page 12 of the pdf. To put this in broader context: "...formulated in this manner, the accusation that the authors of the Polin exhibition have not taken into account “modern historical studies,” ignores the immense research fndings and the latest achievements of Jewish historiography... Emblematic here is the criticism against one of the most distinguished experts on the history of Jews in Poland in the modern period, Moshe Rosman. He was accused of “Polinizng” the history of Jews in Poland by promoting a false and ideologized version of it with the myth of Poland as a “paradise of tolerance.”" Long story short, the academic debate about this topic, as well as whether this phrase is anti-semitic, or much more nuanced, is ongoing, and any attempt to simply it is not helpful. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
    There is no disagreement in the academic literature that the full phrase is highly antisemitic. There are however uses of the sub-phrase "Paradisus Judeorum" which are not. As for discussion on the article talk page on POV, I believe it was limited to me and you, and that you yourself removed the tag - despite there being a clear lack of consensus (1 vs. 1) regarding POV. I chose not to engage in edit warring over the tag, despite the removal of the tag being highly irregular. The article has severe NPOV and notability (for the full phrase) issues. Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
    That's your OR not backed up by any sources. A single scholar has stated that the two-word part of the proverb, "Jewish Paradise" is antisemitic. Nobody else said this, clearly, about the proverb or that part, instead numerous scholars use it without any reference to anything but the Golden Age of Jews in Poland. Ex. this is Gershon Hundert's use of the proverb and discussion of the related topic Paradisus Judaeorum: A central theme of this paper will be my attempt to diffuse some of the darkness, lachrymosity and sense that the experience of Jews in Poland was of unending pogrom and persecution. I shall argue that this is a story characterized by light and not darkness, by life and not death. If one had to choose a single word to reflect the experience of Jews in Poland, it would be vitality. That and an indomitably positive sense of self. The Polish Jewish community was vibrant, creative, proud and self-confident: sevurim hem deyabashta hava veleika galuta, they thought they were on dry land and not in exile. Their neighbours knew this as well, referring to Poland as Paradisus Judaeorum, rajem dla Zyd6w. The full expression went: 'Poland is heaven for the nobility, hell for the peasants and paradise for Jews'.[4] This is hyperbole of course, but I am emphasizing the brighter side as a corrective to the predominant popular image of the Jewish experience in Polish lands, which seems to me altogether too dismal and to be profoundly coloured by events in the twentieth century. This is my primary goal; my secondary purpose is to complicate your perception. Hundert, Gershon David (1997). "Poland: Paradisus Judaeorum". Journal of Jewish Studies. 48 (2): 335–348. doi:10.18647/2003/JJS-1997. ISSN 0022-2097. Nothing about anti-semitism of the proverb in his discussion. This is the representative use and discussion of the proverb, not the pretty recent and fringe accusation of a single scholar (Janicka) that it is antisemitic. Feel free to publish a paper that it is a "highly antisemitic saying", then we will have a source to consider. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment 2 To spell this out more clearly: This Polish proverb comes from the period of increasing feudalism in Poland, with the nobility taking over control of towns and land, worsening conditions for everyone else. It was not meant kindly for either the nobility or the Jews. The proverb links the Jews with the oppressors of the Polish people. At a time of increasing Polish antisemitism I suggest we NOT put this on the main page. StarryGrandma (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @StarryGrandma: Please note that WP:NOTCENSORED. If an article is neutral, and the hook is neutral, and the article is eligible, there are no reasons not to put this on the front page. The article is now doing a better job explaining some controversies and issues about this proverb, which should help educate the readers about some aspects of antisemitism. Talking about such issues is better than ignoring them. In fact, I am surprised that my ALT1 hook proposal has not been endorsed by those wary of antisemitic POV, as it explicitly draws attention to this very issue, by pointing out that the proverb is not exactly neutral. ==Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • If we are to place a highly antisemtic Polish saying on the main page - quoted in full - it is not sufficient to say it is "exaggerated" or "sarcastic" - we should explicitly spell out that this was an antisemitic polemic saying.Icewhiz (talk) 07:21, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • With the note that you are the only person in the world calling this 'a highly antisemitic Polish saying', I am open to reviewing your proposed hook. Just please make sure any claims you make in it are sourced. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Piotrus, Wikipedia is not censored, which is exactly why there are whole categories of articles that never appear on the main page and of images that will never be chosen as featured picture of the day. In this case it is because the topic is currently sensitive and will remain so. And, while in the queue, an American gunman murdered 11 people in a synagogue. The timing would have been unfortunate if the DYK had appeared on Nov 8, so soon afterward. StarryGrandma (talk) 17:37, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @StarryGrandma: I lived in Pittsburgh, I know people who knew people who died there, and I still see no connection between publishing a hook related to Jews and this. There are limits to political correctness, and again, fortunately, Wikipedia is not censored. That said, it is likely this hook won't be on Main Page till December. And in either case, I doubt anyone would really make associations like that, particularly as the anti-semitism in this proverb is very slight. It is a simple exaggeration, and that's a far cry from hate. (Of course, anything can be abused, but this is not our fault). The proverb has been used much more in bening contest than in hate speech; in fact nobody has even shown an example of it being used in modern times in hate speech. You yourself just found a reference I quote above where this proverb is used in a positive context, as reference to vitality of the Jewish culture of the Golden Age of Jews in Poland period. It is exactly this positive association that we should focus on. Instead of worrying about sending a wrong message, we should focus on sending the right one. Something like with an alt that would say that "one of the meanings of the proverb is to reference the Golden Age of Jews in the Middle Ages".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @StarryGrandma: I like to think that the article that I started is not such toxic antisemitism bait. I think quality articles on Polish-Jewish history are a good thing for the world still, and this is not one of the tropes that has been exploited by the current wave of hate.--Pharos (talk) 05:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I would pull this nomination. There's an RM going on for the page, as well as a neutrality discussion on the Talk page. Concerns were also expressed at the DYK Talk page here: [9]. It's not suitable for mainpage at this time. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I strongly disagree with any suggestion this topic is not legible for a DYK. We should of course wait for RM to finish, as well as to make sure that there is no edit warring and that the article is stable. Unless the topic is deleted, there is no reason for it not to be DYKed, after suitable delay that ensured the article and hook are free of problems. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • If the RM is not successful, and the article continues to be on this full phrase which is lacking viable sources (as opposed to the narrower "Paradisus Judeorum" concept which is covered in a secondary manner) - I intend to take this to AfD as a NOTDICTIONARY and GNG fail. Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Shrug. There's no deadline, so if you want to waste the community's time with an AfD on that (which is likely, given the RM doesn't have much support), sure. This DYK can wait a few weeks for those issues to be resolved. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:00, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • NPOV Fail - When editors remove the anti-semitic context of this saying - The term Paradisus Judaeorum [Paradise for Jews] has been present in Polish culture since the 17th century. It comes from an anonymous text expressing anti-gentry and anti-Jewish sentiments, which was published in Latin in 1606 and titled Paskwiliusze na królewskim weselu podrzucone [Lampoons planted at the royal wedding party]. The anonymous writer uses the phrase Paradisus Judaeorum to express his conviction that Poland is ruled by Jews and that they enjoy excessive privileges - from a cited reference [10] supporting the stmt (in a passage filled with 17th, 18th, and 19th century references) - we are repeating hate speech in Wikipedia's voice without context. Icewhiz (talk) 06:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
    • This claim wasn't removed - you duplicated it, it was already and is still present in the article, in another section. But your attitude towards a normal copyediting edit ("ITS TRYING TO HIDE ANTISEMITISM") is a good illustration of the issue here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
      • When anti-X (semitism/Jewish) appears in the article not in the lede, not in the first section, but tucked somewhere in the middle in an attributed manner - this is a shameful state for an article on 17th century hate speech, primarily known for being hate speech. Icewhiz (talk) 07:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
        • This is because "17th century hate speech, primarily known for being hate speech" are your OR claims. It's not like anyone is preventing you from adding this claim to the lead - with reliable sources. You haven't done that. You can hardly expect we will add this claim to the article, referencing User:Icewhiz on Wikipedia... The lead does, of course, represent what the sources say, i.e. " The "Paradise for Jews" part of the proverb, which refers to the Golden Age of Jews in Poland,[5][6] has been criticized as exaggerating the position of Jews in the Commonwealth society, which was not that comparable to the most privileged class, the nobility." Not you, nor anyone else has disputed this characterization on article's talk. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:53, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. If this phrase or any part of it was highly antisemitic, it wouldn't be used by POLIN Museum as the name of its exhibition for the Golden Age of Jews in Poland ([11]): In the Paradisus Iudaeorum gallery, visitors [...] will explore a large map of Jewish settlement in the Commonwealth, and will find out what religious tolerance meant in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and why Poland came to be known as “Paradisus Iudaeorum” – a Jewish paradise Let's have some common sense here. Scholars agree it is an exaggeration, but exaggeration is not anti-semitism. A single scholar has made such a claim, dozens of others do not agree with such an association and the phrase continues to be generally used in the positive (Golden Age) context. A WP:FRINGE statement by a single scholar should not be taken with undue weight; other scholars noted before and after that is is an exaggeration, but that's making mountains out of molehills, and per sources cited in the article, usage of this phrase to refer to Golden Age is much more common that any discussion of antisemitism (again: only one scholar has called this phrase antisemitic, dozens of others have used it in a positive Golden Age context, and again, the POLIN Museum doesn't even think this issue needs any clarification on their webpage). And to further stress the fringiness of this view, see [12] which includes a review of her article (which got reprinted in a book), and the reviewer, Piotr Wróbel, says the following: "Janicka is not shy about presenting risky historical interpretations and claims". See the referenced discussion in the article for more details. Longer version is: Janicka, a minor if reliable scholar, has been very critical of the museum exhibition, and thinks it minimizes the issue of antisemitism. Other scholars have disagreed with her or taken a more neutral stance, and nobody repeated her assertion that this exhibit title/phrase is particularly problematic (i.e. antisemitic). As noted in [13]: "a heated debate surrounded the name of the gallery". One scholar called the name antisemitic, but one scholar's fringe opinion should not be given undue weight, even if one Wikipedian seems to be fixated on it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:49, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
  • It meets the requirements for DYK, article is neutral, and so is the hook. Support ALT2 for the hook as it's most hook-y. The objections appear to be spurious and may be motivated by personal issues between Icewhiz and other editors. Volunteer Marek 22:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
I have reverted the promotion to a preparation area as per discussions at Wikipedia talk:Did you know. Flibirigit (talk) 05:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Comment This saying does not belong bolded on Wikipedia's front page. And for God's sake it's almost Chanukah. That would be pretty, eh? valereee (talk) 12:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Why not? It's a Polish Jewish history topic about a saying that despite claims to the contrary is NOT controversial (find me a single newspaper piece that says it is... instead of the dozen+ presented that use it without a second thought to refer to the Golden Age of Jews in Poland). In fact, it would be a very good Chanukah DYK, since it is a good time to display hooks related to Jewish topics. And it would be good if people would stop with the WP:INDONTLIKEIT. Again, no media source has ever been critical of this saying, instead it is used to remind people of the Golden Age of the Jewish history. If anything is antisemitic here, it's not the saying, it is an attempt to censor the Jewish history topics of the front page. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
From the article: 'The author of the 1606 pasquinade is unknown, through it has been suggested by Stanisław Kot that it was created by a Catholic townsman, perhaps a priest, jealous of the nobility and the Jewry. Konrad Matyjaszek has described the 1606 work as "expressing anti-gentry and anti-Jewish sentiments"' It has nothing to do with me liking it or not. I'm happy to have Jewish history on the front page, and the topic certainly deserves an article. I'll take it on good faith that the article has been sourced from neutral historians with a variety of viewpoints, and that their analysis has been represented fairly by its editors. My concern is that it this proverb has antisemitic roots, and that makes it as inappropriate for the front page as any other derogatory phrase for a group of people valereee (talk) 12:56, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: @Piotrus: @Flibirigit: What has happened to this review? VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 09:16, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
@Vincent60030: The article got renamed, but other than that it has been stable, and I believe the hooks discussed above are still relevant and verifiable. That said, I have no objections if someone would like to propose a new hook, but I said so much over a month ago and nobody bothered to propose one, so I doubt it will happen. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:44, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
The article has severe POV problems, including notably the lack of describing the 1606 as anti-Semitic in the lede. That a couple of editors have been edit-warring tags and content out of the article does not indicate stability. As for an alternate hook with the current title - here's one:
ALT3: ... that a 16 June 1940 article in the Polish National Democracy underground newspaper Walka was titled The General Government — Paradisus Judaeorum? sources:Szarota, Tomasz. "The Reaction of Occupied Europe to the Stigmatization of the Jews with the Star of David." Acta Poloniae Historica 90 (2004): 97-111.[14][15]
Which would be much more hookier. Icewhiz (talk) 11:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the hook, but I have to say - really? Few readers care about an obscure historical Polish political party or know what GG was. While factually correct, I think the prior hooks have more broader appeal (and per WP:DYKRULES, the hook should be interesting). Ditto for POLIN controversy, I considered it, but again it is a minor issue that never even made it to mainstream press. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:31, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
After almost four months of discussion and reviewers being unable to come into a compromise on what hook to use, or if the article is even appropriate for DYK, it seems that the best option would be to simply mark this for closure as stale. We're not going anywhere it seems, and I doubt keeping this longer is going to change that when editors can't reach an agreement. Time to put this out of its misery. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
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