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Template:Did you know nominations/Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 04:21, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann

  • ... that the lieder singer and pedagogue Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann wrote a book Der wissende Sänger (The cognisant singer), first published in 1956 and reissued in 2010? Source: several
  • Reviewed: Rock parrot
  • Comment: She gave international master classes with her husband, but long time ago, so I think that being cited in current books on voice training is more interesting. Is there a better translation of the book title? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 10:03, 7 August 2019 (UTC).

User:The Rambling Man is welcome to review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol confirmed.svg on main hook. It is long enough. It looks well sourced. --evrik (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Symbol question.svg user:Gerda Arendt The statement "Among her student is the tenor Hermin Esser" is not sourced. Depending on the source added, student should likely be the plural students instead. Flibirigit (talk) 18:57, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, her article was created because she was a red link for his, but I added that source and that "s" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol redirect vote 4.svg (edit conflict) A full review of this nomination is needed, although Flibirigit concern needs to be addressed (which it may just have been while I was typing this). evrik, for future reference, a tick should not be given at DYK unless a complete review has been done, encompassing all of the DYK criteria. All reviews should reference the various criteria checked, from newness and length to copyvio and neutrality (and everything else involved). Reviewers should also check the cited source to make sure it does support the hook; it is not enough that a source has been provided. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I did look at those items. Sorry if I didn't write a fuller analysis. No one had looke at it in 28 days, so I thought @Gerda Arendt: might want it reviewed. --evrik (talk) 21:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Evrik, would you like to write an expanded review and claim this as a QPQ credit? My question for Gerda has been answered. Flibirigit (talk) 21:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't need the QPQ right now. I will look in a few days. Please go ahead if you have time. --evrik (talk) 14:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Sorry, I do not have time for a full review this month. Flibirigit (talk) 15:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol question.svg I was thinking a better hook would need to be proposed, as it's pretty common for old books to be republished many years after their first printing. Perhaps, if information could be found about the writing or the book or its contents, then a new hook based on that could be suggested instead? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:57, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: @Narutolovehinata5: A couple of possibilities strike me - I have found a review of Der wissende Sänger which recommends it to laypeople (ie, non-singers) who are "interested in learning more about the complexities of the 'human' instrument", and the introduction to the book itself, by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, also says "One would wish that those outside of music would also read this book." Another thing that might be interesting for a hook is that a voice teacher also published two volumes of poetry. RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:22, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, - can you word something please? I'm busy in RL. I am not of fond of mentioning the poetry. We have so little space, and I try to get to what a person stood for. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: How about:
ALT1: ... that lieder singer and voice teacher Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann's book Der wissende Sänger (The cognisant singer) was recommended for general readers interested in "the human instrument"?
or possibly
ALT2: ... that lieder singer and voice teacher Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann's book Der wissende Sänger (The cognisant singer) was recommended for anyone interested in an appreciation of singing?
If you like either of these, or a variation, I can add the quotes and sources to the article.RebeccaGreen (talk) 09:12, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Back from firt appointment: I like them, especially the "human instrument" bit. Yes, please, add. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:41, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: I have added some information about the books from the reviews, and also the quotes relevant to the ALT1 and ALT2 hooks. Please let me know what you think, and if you would like any changes made. (Of course, you're free to change anything yourself, but if you don't have access to the reviews, that could be tricky.)
Symbol redirect vote 4.svg This still needs a full review, and as I have added to the article and suggested alternate hooks, another reviewer is needed. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Symbol possible vote.svg The article is long enough and new enough. I assume good faith on the references. A QPQ has been completed. However, as stated earlier, the original hook isn't interesting because books are republished a lot. ALT1 and ALT2 are not what I would call interesting. It isn't interesting for a book about singing to be recommended for people who appreciate singing. The "human instrument" bit doesn't work either because it obviously refers to singing (which singer is in the title). I'm really sorry, but I don't think there are any workable hooks and that editors here are stretching the interesting criterion a lot. SL93 (talk) 05:53, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I do have an idea for a hook that can be added to the article though. ALT3 ... that the lieder singer Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann has been named "a major figure in 20th-century, German-language vocal pedagogy literature"? SL93 (talk) 06:19, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Pinging @RebeccaGreen:. Also, source SL93 (talk) 06:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the article work, and you deserve co-credit. It's not my type of hook - you don't even get to know that she's a singer - but perhaps it perhaps it appeas to others. - To me, "Der wissende Sänger" is a concise and wonderful phrase, but I can see that it looses in translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
SL93, ALT1 and ALT2 were perhaps not clear enough - if it said ALT4: "... that lieder singer and voice teacher Franziska Martienssen-Lohmann's textbook for singers was recommended for general readers interested in "the human instrument"? it would perhaps be clearer that it was not written for general readers. It's certainly not the case that all books written to instruct those learning a profession are recommended for those outside the profession. However, if you think that's of no interest, then ALT3 is OK. I have added the word "vocal" to the quote from the source, as that is what it says. The quote and source will need to be added to the article, if ALT3 is used. RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:24, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Symbol voting keep.svg RebeccaGreen I hope that you don't mind that I added ALT4 to the new version of the hook. I am approving that ALT4. SL93 (talk) 13:46, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
To be clear, I have no problem with adding the book titled Der wissende Sänger (The cognisant singer) to that hook. SL93 (talk) 13:51, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, SL93! Adding the title would take ALT4 over 200 characters, meaning that some other editing would be necessary, so perhaps better to leave it as it is, now that a hook has been approved. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:05, 13 September 2019 (UTC)