Talk:Wola massacre

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100,000 is highly improbable. The Polish article says 35-40,000. --HanzoHattori 19:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But it's referenced to professor Jerzy Kłoczowski - yes, it's a high end, and probably the mid range is more correct, but its reliable. Once this article is expanded and has a para on casualties, this can be elaborated on in more detail.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is just a news article (now locked and unverifiable, btw) and is not a peer-reviewed Reliable Source. I'm going to remove it for now - if the professor has published his research, please provide a source - and preferably one in ENGLISH - the massacre of the Polish uprising in Warsaw is a much-written/documented event with a plethora of English sources. If a new theory arises, it needs to be carefully reviewed prior to use in the encyclopedia. And if the academic historical community accepts such a theory, it will appear in an English translation somewhere - this is not an 'obscure' topic where non-English sources with unique information, if deemed viable, will exist for long. After over half a century, this is the first time I've read of a death toll that high, from an event that has been researched so thoroughly over the years. HammerFilmFan (talk) 09:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

There does seem to be some consensus that the death toll was somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 (eg The Warsaw Uprising of 1944 by Wlodzimierz Borodziej P81, Warsaw 1944: Poland's bid for freedom by Robert Forczyk P58, and Second World War by Martin Gilbert P565) thus I've changed the figure to around 40,000 Rsloch (talk) 11:04, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Personal attack removed

Don't attack other editors, comment on content not editors, as a result I have removed your personal attack. Feel free to refactor your comments so they are not attacking other users. Canterbury Tail talk 21:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Why the sudden interest in the article?

It's massive. And it's not even exactly an anniversary. --Niemti (talk) 21:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It was an 'On this day...' for 12 August. It's good to see something not that well known getting deserved attention.Rsloch (talk) 22:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Flamthrowers in hospitals

Didn't it rather rather took place in the other districts later? (The Russian SS also set fire to the Curie Institute clinic in Ursynow, but I think they did just with gasoline.) --Niemti (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's about the four hospitals in Wola, it says the fire was set to two of them: the large Szpital św. Łazarza after the shooting & grenading by the Azeri soldiers of Dirlwanger (~1200 killed) and the nearby small hospital Szpital Dziecięcy Karola i Marii. But in the main hospital Szpital Wolski they were only shooting people, and later even allowed it to continue its work (thanks to a humane German doctor from the Hermann Göring Division), and at Szpital Zakaźny św. Stanisława there was no massacre at all and the Germans turned it into their own field hospital and even later into Dirlewanger's HQ after the uprising.[1] --Niemti (talk) 17:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

This article wasn't even correct

The mass graves are of the KIA fighters, the "references" fail verification (especially BBC onem supposedly "sourcing" the figures, but actually not at all - actually it's only a news about a museum being opened), it's awkwardly written (including claims that the instruments of the massacre were "Automatic weapons Armoured fighting vehicles Flamethrowers" - no, it was only all kinds of infantry small arms including pistols and rifles, hand grenades, and flamethrowers to set the buildings and corpses on fire), it doesn't even mention the largest massacres (like the largest one, on the railway enbankment where 7-10 thousand people were killed), and more (see for example what I wrote just above about the hospital massacres and the incorrect claims used in the articles). --~~

The purpose of massacre

The purpose of massacre isn't real. Hitlers main goal was not to break fighting spirit of Polish soldiers of insurgency, but "the final solution of the Warsaw problem for the centuries". As Himmler made a statement to Hitler, "it is not the best moment for us, but this is a historic chance to annihilate Poland's capital and heart of Poland - for us, for our children and for all next generations". According to this idea, Hitler made an order "to kill everybody, no matter of age and sex", in order to destroy of Warsaw as point on the map and entire population of Warsaw. --Matrek (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

True that. --Niemti (talk) 10:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

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• Franaszek factory ashes of Wola massacre victims 01.jpg

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Attribution of War Crimes to the nationalities

@Dallavid, you reinstated category Azerbaijani war crimes. How come Nazi Germany's war crimes are being blamed on the Azerbaijanis based on ethnicity? That is ridiculous. The Nazi Germany bears sole responsibility for the war crimes. The fact that certain Azerbaijanis were part of the Nazi forces during the massacre does not make it an Azerbaijani war crime. Also, the fact that the article does not attribute war crime to Germans, Russians, Turkestanis, Tartars, Kirghiz, Uzbek, Tadjiks, Georgians, and others who engaged in massacres as members of Nazi Germany troops has no bearing on your judgment? What's your reasoning to keep only Azerbaijani war crimes category? A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 08:17, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Because they aren't just random Azerbaijanis, they were members of the Azerbaijani Legion that was created by the National Committee of Azerbaijan, made up of Azerbaijani political immigrants. And have any of these other ethnicities taken part in a massacre that isn't hypothetical? --Dallavid (talk) 17:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

This is not factual. The national committee wasn't behind its creation. The legion was formed by mostly Soviet-Azerbaijani POWs. The article you've linked literally says "It was made up mainly of former Azerbaijani POW volunteers but also volunteers from other peoples in the area". 5.134.57.67 (talk) 18:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Source for Azeri national politicians: --Dallavid (talk) 16:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I conducted research and discovered that not only is the claim concerning Azerbaijani war crimes false, but so are the claims in the article about Azerbaijani legion involvement.

Fist of all there is no source claiming that they were members of the Azerbaijani legion, I checked all sources and they talk about few Azerbaijani units which were part of a battalion from the "Bergman" Special Unit, composed of Soviet prisoners of war from the Caucasus, and the 1st Battalion of the 111th Regiment, which was part of the 111th Infantry Division of Gen. Hermann Recknagel.

Secondly, there not single source claiming that this tragic event is a Azerbaijani war crime.

Thirdly, Azerbaijani units were just few on many other units which participated in this tragic events, based on your logic, why on the earth you attribute that only to Azerbaijanis War Crimes? Why not to Germans, Russians, Belorussians and others also then? What is your rationale??

4. attributing war crimes of Nazi Germany to the Azerbaijan or any other country based on the ethnicity is nonsense by its own.

I am removing that unsourced claim from the article, and I hope that you wont add it back unless you have very good source to support such an extraordinary claim. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 07:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Those sources refers to Azerbaijani volunteers under Dirlewanger, which the Rolf Michaelis sources confirms were part of the Azerbaijani Legion. For the Germans, there is already a "Nazi war crimes" category. If you can find a source for the Russians and Belorussians being part of an organization founded by Russian and Belorussian politicians, feel free to add the war crimes categories. The category isn't based on ethnicity, as I already explained. --Dallavid (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

1. The legions were not formed by national committees. Neither the source you provided without a page reference or citation supports your claims, and even if National Commitees did form legions that does not mean that Nazi Germany warcrimes should be assigned to ethnicities because some POWs, who had no choose, but to die or to be recruited by Nazi Germany, were part of Nazi army.

By the way, Dirlewanger was founded by Oskar Dirlewanger and consisted of convicted criminals and poachers recruited in Germanprisons and concentration camps. By February 1943, the number of men in Dirlewanger was 700 (half of them Volksdeutsche). In May 1944, the 550 men (Turkestanis, Volga Tartars, Azerbaijanis, Kirghiz, Uzbek, and Tadjiks) from the Ostmuslemanische SS-Regiment were attached to the SS Dirlewanger brigade.

2. For the Germans, there is already a "Nazi war crimes" category. - What??? Germans is nationality/ethnicity, where Nazi Germany is a state, which at the time of Wola tragic events consisted from number of nationalities/ethnicities.

3. There no sources to support ridiculous claim of Azerbaijani war crimes, thus I am removing it from the article, and it should not be reinstated without reliable source. Until and if that happens - I see no point on discussing this further. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 09:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Category:Azerbaijani war crimes is within parent Category:War crimes committed by country. Azerbaijani Legion and similar formations were not part of the country's military and fought inside German forces. Generally speaking, there were neither Azerbaijani Armed Forces nor independent, sovereign Azerbaijan at the time to begin with, just Red Army inside Soviet Union. So, all in all, categorization as "Azerbaijani war crimes" is not correct. Brandmeister^talk 09:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I had just told you that the Michaelis source confirms the Azerbaijanis were part of the Azerbaijani Legion. Why did you remove that source, as well as any mention of the Legion entirely? --Dallavid (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Corrections

User:Cyberwolf434344 the main body of the text clearly states that the massacre was carried out by the SS (Waffen SS) and not by the Wehrmacht. also the reference to Hitler's order is not in the source that is supposed to document it, it is wrong. I only corrected mistakes.MavrosPagos (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Alr my mistake •Cyberwolf• 01:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)