Talk:Wop May

Wilfrid May

Article

I remove the section that stated "It is now considered most likely that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, probably Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company, based on the range from which the bullet was shot and the angle and velocity the bullet must have had."

I saw the documentary also. It is based solely on the 'trajectory' of the bullet. From the lower right back towards the front left chest. That documentary assumed the angle of impact must mean that it was fired from the ground. However, consider the situation. We are talking about a "dog-fight". The Foker Tri-plane was rolling, pitching, yawing, climbing, and diving. Imagine how much manuverability that a 3 wing airplane has!! So therefore, it is possible the pursuing plane could have fired from any angle. The fatal bullet passed clean through the Red Baron and of course could never be recovered. Therefore it is impossible to conduct ballisitics tests.

While recognizing that for "propoganda reason" Capt Brown was awarded credit for the "kill", of course realistically, we could never know who fired the fatal bullet that day.—Preceding unsigned comment added by claffey-27 (talk • contribs)

You should re-insert that section, and read "Who Killed The Red Barron" by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan. There is no question whatsoever that the Baron was killed by ground fire from Australian positions. And take out that bullshit about Manfred von Richthofen only attacking damaged aircraft. The man was a great fighter pilot and a hero, and this is some asshole's undocumented attempt posthumously smear him.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.128.211 (talk • contribs)

Wop May's Birthday

I changed the birthday from April 20 to March 20 beacuse in "Wings of a Hero" by Sheila Reid she cites March 20 several times throughout the text. This book was read and approved by Denny may and contains a foreword written by him. However the website does list the birthdate as April 20. I am going to do some more investigation into this and leave it at April 20 for now. Jaob (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Standard J

Article mentions buying a Jenny (built by Standard). The Jenny (Curtiss JN)and the Standard J are not the same aircraft. Which one is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.232.76 (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Cut sentence about "DR May"

I have cut a very strange sentence that simply failed to make sense (in several senses of the word), or add anything to the article, because:

1. It is bad English, and unclear.

2. Nobody ever claimed May had anything to do with the Red Baron's death (apart from being his last target).

3. Nobody ever called the Fokker Dr.I the "DR".

4. Nobody (as far as I know) ever called May "D.R. May" - on any grounds.

If the sentence can be recast into unambiguous, understandable English, and a reliable source can be cited, then there might be a case for reinstating it. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Bad move to nickname

This article has been moved to a nickname name space. I have written hundreds of bios on WWI fighter aces, and researched dozens of texts in the process, and I have NEVER EVER seen May listed solely by nickname. Wilfrid "Wop" May is common; Wilfred "Wop" May occurs; both Wilfrid May and Wilfred May appear; never just the nickname.

Georgejdorner (talk) 22:56, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree - why not move it back again - as it is, it sets a most unfortunate precedent. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Bad precedent? See Snoop Dogg and Hulk Hogan.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:29, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

This started out at Wop May got moved then returned. Why not start a new section using the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves and then a consensus can be formed as to which title should be used. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 09:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a very big difference between a stage (or "ring") name and an airforce officer's nickname. As I said, a really crazy precedent. Someone needs to move it back, and then we can "debate" it if we must - although there is no possible rational argument in favour of this foolishness. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

How about Shorty Green, Babe Siebert, Sweeney Schriner, Oil Can Boyd , etc.? Having an article titled as nickname-last name sets no precedent at all as it already exists. That said, I've no opinion on whether that is appropriate here. In either case, the previous title was very, very poor. Should be either Wop May or Wilfred May. Resolute 15:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Since your mind is set, debating while it's here is as good as any.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Article titles#Common names may be of some use here. Which name is he more commonly known by, Wilfrid or Wop? Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Started proper move discussion below to allow for more comments. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. Although the weight of arguments below is against the move, over the long period this survey has been open little actual evidence other than anecdote and assertion of what the common name is was presented (as should be upon any common name argument), and so I have necessarily had to independently check. My searches shows that Wop May is overwhelmingly the common name found in reliable, English language sources, over Wilfrid May. In point of fact, for example, a Google Book search of "Wilfrid May" (with terms to remove the massive false positive results for the bishop), "Wilfrid Wop May", "Wilfrid R. May", "Wilfrid R. Wop May", "Wilfrid Reid May" and "Wilfrid Reid Wop May" combined, return about 100 results, while "Wop May" returns over 1,200 results, all of which appear to be about this individual.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 08:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

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Wop May → — As per the above section should the article be at his proper name, Wilfrid, or his nickname, Wop. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

In this case I'd vote to move back to "proper" name on these grounds. 1. Alternative name is not "better known" or "more familiar" than the proper name, but about the same - in fact most references seem to refer to him as Wilfrid ("Wop") May or some other combination using both actual given name and nickname. I have never seen Wop (Wilfrid) May. 2. The alternative name is not a pen name or stage name. It seems to have originally been a family nickname. Nor is his original name obscure or little known. 3. Other air aces had nicknames, but are none-the-less filed under their real names (e.g. the "Red Baron" himself). Does an MOS section need to be composed for this case - when should a nickname take precedence over a "real" name??? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 15:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Against, I've never heard him referred to as anything other than "Wop" May, but then again, my only knowledge is the Stompin' Tom song. As long as the name isn't at where it used to be. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:UCN ; he is "Wop May" ; people will not recognize him otherwise. His Canadian Moments spot calls him Wop May, etc.76.66.197.151 (talk) 05:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
• For move to Wilfrid "Wop" May – for reasons given above (which sparked this whole discussion), as well as a tenable compromise. It's both encyclopedic and acknowledges his popular nickname.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Nicknames in quotations marks do not belong as article titles. Hence why I moved the article in the first place. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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If that's so, this whole discussion is pointless because the move to the nickname is in violation of standards.Georgejdorner (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Not really, no. It only violates WP:UCN if "Wilfred May" is demonstratably the primary name he was known by, as opposed to "Wop May". Resolute 15:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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I doubt anyone reading this can come up with Hulk Hogan's or Snoop Dogg's birth name right out of memory. On the other hand, May's name appears in both birth form, nickname, or a mixture of the two. There is no doubt about that. The discussion here concerns which form of his name to use.

Earl Andrew heard of him by nickname in a song, therefore he says "nickname".

Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 says May will not be recognized under his birth name, although a redirect from "Wop May" would deal with that rather nicely.

On the other hand, I have been researching fighter aces' lives for bios for the past two years, have created about 900 new articles in the field, comb relentlessly through the Osprey House and Grub Street series in pursuit of facts, and in that time cannot recall having seen Mays referred to strictly by nickname.

Georgejdorner (talk) 14:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Snoop is Calvin Broadus, from memory. That's not to challenge your point; just saying that some of us know birth names. Personally, I'd rather listen to Alecia Beth Moore nine times out of ten. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:33, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

The article clearly states that he is known to the common man (as opposed to a WWI fighter ace researcher) as "Wop May" from the songs about him, etc.

May is immortalized in songs by Stompin' Tom Connors ("Wop May"), The Gumboots ("Wop May"), and John Spearn ("Roy Brown and Wop May"). He was also the subject of a 1979 National Film Board of Canada vignette.[3]

Therefore his common name is Wop May, and the Heritage Moment TV commerical run across Canada by Heritage Canada government agency uses "Wop May" for the "race against death".

He is known outside of WWI, the fighter ace thing only deals with WWI. 76.66.197.151 (talk) 05:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

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Unregistered user 76.66.197.151 repeats my assertions about the sources of our respective positions concerning the article's name; therefore he seems to agree with me in that respect. He stakes out a claim based on local popular culture, and I state one that is the summary of the aviation historians behind Osprey Publishing and Grub Street.

Georgejdorner (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

What it seems to me to boil down to is that someone imagines that what matters about May is that his name appeared in a pop song - and that this ephemeral little by line on his (relatively minor, let's face it) notability as an aviation pioneer should dictate what he is called in Wiki!!. Get real - the man is a (minor) figure in aviation history - not a name in a pop song! In six months the pop song may very well be forgotten forever - people have been interested in May as an aviator for almost a century already, mainly, ironically, for his involuntary contribution to the "Red Baron" story than to the real achievements of his life. I think the latter context isn't just the most important one, it's the ONLY relevant one. Revert to the man's proper name!! Do we need to have the nickname at all? Was it even current outside his own family? Where's the citation for that? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

He is a Canadian, he is more famous for his rescue mission than for his WWI exploits, atleast in Canada, where the Canadian government promotes the rescue mission in TV commercials about Canadian history. As the pop song has been existence for decades, your statement about it being forgotten quickly is patently invalid. Your claim that he is only famous for association with Red Baron is only a minor fact of the engagement, which from your own argument about aviation history, makes it less significant than his place in Canadiana. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 06:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

This is an international general encyclopedia. What might well be notable, even vital for a collection of Canadiana may well be less notable in this context. The pop song doesn't get mentioned in the article (and, very probably, neither should it). If the article read "Wop May was a person well known as a character in Canadian Pop songs" perhaps use the name used by the lyricist in question - but he is very simply not (that) notable in this category - his notability is almost entirely as an aviator - and then more on the extent to which his career impinges on that of other, more notable, names in aviation history - the other things for which he is famous are all concerned with aviation. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

What is he more known as to specialist WWI aerial warfare buffs from around the world, or the general Canadian population, who watch a Government of Canada TV advertisement about the history of Canada, displayed on all major Canadian television networks? Hmm... tough one there. A few thousand people versus a few million people, gee, I don't know which is greater. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 06:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I find it ironic that I plump for the respectful version of May's name, while those who insist on his heroism seem to find it absolutely necessary to use his nickname. Unmentioned thus far is the fact that "Wop" is a pejorative to many English speakers.

Soundofmusicals is correct that most international readers will look May up in relation to his combat with the Red Baron; that's reality. I would like to see the article indexed by May's formal name, with a redirect from the nickname. That way, everyone gets to the article, no matter which name they use.

Then I would like to see the article take full note of May's heroism as a pioneer bush pilot, as well as his brush with the Baron. By the end of the article, the reader should realize there's a lot more to Mr. May than a few minutes drama in 1918.

Georgejdorner (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There is no policy reason to support choosing a name based on an individual view of what "respect" is. It is a simple question: what name is he most commonly known by? The answer to that question is the answer to this move request. It's that simple. Resolute 15:13, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

SO what about starting a totally different article called "Wop May as the subject of songs"? In fact he's (best) known as an aviator, not someone someone once sang about. As an aviator his nickname, while well known, is NOT the "name by which he is best known" at all. THAT simple. Not as if we were seriously suggesting that the "Wop" bit disappeared altogether, or that this article wouldn't be "found" by anyone looking for "Wop May". --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

What name is he best known by to the overall public? I'm not actually !voting either way, though I think the fact that his son's own website is at wopmay.com and is called "Wop's Chronicles" is a fairly telling point. Comically, a rock on Mars named after him is also called Wopmay. Resolute 22:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I gave no policy reason concerning respect, only an ironic comment. However, no one except me is noting that May's nickname is a term hotly resented by many of Italian heritage. So what is the WP policy on pejorative titles, pray tell? (That question directed at the community at large, and not specifically at Resolute.)

Resolute, what you consider a simple question is indeed one, but if you have read the entire talk page and looked at the history of this article, you will find this name issue has been dragged out to a grotesque tedium. Georgejdorner (talk) 23:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

What is Wikipedia's policy on pejorative titles? Why it would be WP:NOTCENSORED. Also, it would be appreciated if you would properly thread your replies (I have moved your latest into the proper order) rather than interjecting them in the middle of other comments. It becomes confusing otherwise. Resolute 02:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Resolute, I am not trying to confuse you, and I apologize if I have misled you, even inadvertently. You have been a voice of reason in this discussion.

Your link is most interesting. However, the policy contains no guidance on titles as such; it does contain an excellent policy on censorship. I hold no brief for censorship, obviously. However, entitling an article in such a way it repels readers is self-defeating. Consider the title if Spencer B. Horn's nickname were used.

The fact that every article and book I have found on May goes to great pains to explain that his nickname is NOT an ethnic insult because his cousin nicknamed him shows a consciousness that his nickname is insulting.

All of which is interesting, but aside from the main point here: just what is Mr. May's best known name?

Georgejdorner (talk) 19:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The no censorship policy, though instructive, is peripheral to the issue. The matter is covered in Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles. When there is no common title but a number of equal weight and equally unambiguous, we can make an editorial decision. When a title is necessarily descriptive and we are fashioning it, NPOV in what we choose is a central consideration. But when sources have made the judgment as to the common name, whether we think the title is NPOV or not is irrelevant.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why "Wop" must be considered pejorative; it's not in reference to Italians, it's just his nickname, derived from another meaning.Skookum1 (talk) 17:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

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I agree that the ironic comments by me concerning pejoratives is peripheral to the issue, just as I stated previously in an ignored comment above.

Now let's quit the bumbling about and settle on his most common form of name.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

We have. I closed the discussion above on that basis.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:06, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

High school in Edmonton

Here is the evidence that he attended Victoria School in Edmonton: here, here, here, and a copy from a newspaper article here. Thus I am readding the cat for his alumni status there. Jeremy112233 (talk) 00:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:CAT says that the information should be included in the article body. Would you mind adding a sentence supported by one of those refs? Pburka (talk) 00:57, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Pburka (talk) 01:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I did it right after I posted here. Always happy to help improve an article if I can :) Jeremy112233 (talk) 01:06, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Death of The Red Baron

The last two sentences of the second-to-last paragraph are non sequiturs; there is text necessary between the two to describe what happened between Richthofen's resumed attack on May and the last sentence about the true cause of Richthofen's death. I'm not qualified to add that text and would request an authority to do so. Hkne (talk) 14:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

It looks to me like that text was largely copied from Manfred von Richthofen#Death. pburka (talk) 18:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)