Talk:Western (genre)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Diminishing value

"it has begun to diminish in importance."

When exactly did it (westerns), begin to diminish in importance? GT

The decline began around the same time as the rural purge in US television in the early 1970s. Audiences were drawn to more contemporary themes. Also, since Westerns are period pieces, the more time passed, the more expensive it became to maintain the illusion. Richard K. Carson (talk) 07:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Electricity

"no cellphones, no cars, no electricity."

Seems to me a lot of westerns from the 30s and the 40s, did have cars & electricity.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you counting the "singing cowboy" pics? Trekphiler 20:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Westerns can still be set in modern times. There are still sparsely populated areas in the traditional regions where people ride horses and often carry guns. As long as theses places exist, so will westerns set in them.

City Slickers Brokeback Mountain Thelma & Louise

Generosity instead of action

“Here, one must cultivate a reputation by acts of violence”;

That’s for sure

“or they can be generous, because generosity creates a dependency relationship in the social hierarchy.”

Does anyone have any clear example of this generosity instead of action theory in a Western? GT

Most of the Cartwrights, most of the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.180.179 (talk) 05:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hollywood

“Western movies, usually filmed in desolate corners of California,”

If you call the Republic lot at the intersection of Sunset & Hollywood Boulevards a desolate corner. Many Real Western towns had buildings on only one side of the street. Do you know why directors put buildings on both sides? It was to block the camera from seeing Hollywood civilization, when they turned. GT

Revisionist western

“The Western re-invented itself in the revisionist Western.”

What exactly does it revise. Over 50 years ago we had Broken Arrow, the movie.

Later a generation grew up with Michael Ansara playing Cochise, on the Broken Arrow TV-Series 1956-1960. GT

Frontier vs. civilization

“often fights with American Indians are depicted”

Sure it was always a conflict between two sides. White hats vs. Black hats, cops' n-robbers, Outlaws vs. Lawmen, hero vs. villain, cowboys vs. cowboys, soldiers vs. Indians, soldiers vs. soldiers, cowboys vs. Indians, Indians vs. Indians, settlers vs. big business etc.

As we said earlier “the idealized frontier lifestyle,” giving, “way to the march of civilization,” seems to be the essence of the thing. GT

Girls

“Some "modern" Westerns give women more powerful roles,"

I thought the most powerful roles for women in Westerns was Marlene Dietrich as Altar Keane in Rancho Notorious or Claudia Cardinale as Jill McBain in Once Upon a Time in the West. When exactly did "modern," start, half a century ago? GT

Deputy Sheriff Walt Coogan

“with the incorporation of many new elements. "McCloud," which premiered in 1970, was essentially a fusion of the sheriff-oriented western with the modern big-city crime drama.”

New elements? I thought McCloud, was the TV version of Clint Eastwood’s 1968 portrayal of Deputy Sheriff Walt Coogan. What new elements? GT

It was, & arguably "Coogan's Bluff" did it. Trekphiler 20:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Gunfight?

"Life and Times of Grizzly Adams"?

How can this be a western? No gunfight? GT

Changes

To many oftens. Gunslingers and cowboys often play a prominent role in Western movies, and often fights with American Indians are depicted; though "revisionist" Westerns give the natives sympathetic treatment.

How about "Gunslingers and cowboys play prominent roles in Western movies. Often fights with American Indians are depicted;"? GT

Topper

I am looking for the horses these guys rode. We all Know Trigger and Champion, the Lone Ranger's Silver but who rode White wind and what was Bill Boyd’s horse called. I can’t find this stuff anywhere

Western Movie Horses. Hopalong rode “Topper!” GT

Notable vs. Famous

We seem to have a list of notable Westerns and a list of famous Westerns. What's the difference? -- Nairobiny

The difference is (was, as they have been merged) is, essentially that one is somewhat significant, and the other isn't so much so, possibly because it hasn't stood the test of time, perhaps. Tom Selleck is dedicated to the portrayal of the cowboy, but are his movies remembered or discussed as much as say, an Eastwood or Wayne film? --Bryan

Notable westerns have had an impact on the art like The Magnificent Seven. Famous Westerns may have been commercial success like Blazing Saddles. Tom’s stuff will be honored. GT

Photos

One thing we need is a good still from a Western, but my searches haven't revealed anything copyright free. Any takers? — dino

LOVE the photo of Broncho Billy there. A great idea. RickK 03:34, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

There are plenty of western movies that have fallen out of copyright. So stills from these are an option —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.180.179 (talk) 05:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Zulu

What about non-Western Westerns, esp. Zulu which follows the standard plot with the Americans replaced by the British and the Native Americans with the Zulus?

You said it: Zulu is not a western. GT

And it is based on a true story. No-one created the plot - it actually happened, more-or-less, like that. Hence, not a Western; "Any similarities are purely coincidental." 91.108.100.87 (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

What makes a "western?" Spaghetti westerns shot almost entirely in Spain wit "Mexicans" who are Italians. They are not shot in the west. Those movies hardly even pretend to be in the American West. Many westerns developed recurring themes and even so as the film industry stopped shooting "western themed" movies set in the American west they indisputably started shooting them is places similar to the west.

The Western has consistently been a lens that America has used to look at itself. The Magificent Seven represents (shot in 1960) an idealized image of american involvement in Vietnam with only positive outcomes of violence; while the Wild Bunch (shot after the Mylai massacre and set in a time after the 1890 closing of the american frontier) is very much a counter point to every issue raised by the first film but is definately not shot in the classic american western setting.

In westerns, the "past" is often just an allegory for whatever themes Americans are concerned with. Rio Grande which is about how John Wayne finds the justification to cross over into Mexico was shot and released barely prior to MacArthur crossing into North Korea. Stagecoach has a populist themes (shot in the 30s when capitalism was failing as a system of distribution). Wild Bunch expresses disillusionment over the expectation that violence could have positive results. These are three film shot over the spread of American Western film tradition tha illistrate the point that the genre allows an often used and accessible allegorical setting for Americans to question what it means to be an American.

This is an important theme in Westerns and seems completely ignored by this article.

studentof history(not sure how to sign my name for i have no tildes)

1949

All the Pretty Horses takes place in 1949, but it is certainly a Western, as it the whole focus of the movie, aside from the romance, is the waning lifestyle of the cowboy, and the journey two men take to continue to live that lifestyle.

What of Legends of the Fall? The setting is a Montana Ranch, in the 1920's, and it addresses the divergent goals of the members of one family, one embracing the development and growth of the West facilitated by government, while the father and other son prefer just the opposite. --Bryan

Mustangs

The late Texan, J. Frank Dobie, author of The Mustangs, and editor of Mustangs and Cow Horses, as well as a number of other scholarly works, is long considered one of the definitive sources of the history of the wild mustang and the role of the horse in the West. His works read like literature. --Bryan

Never diminished

Early on in the article, it is mentioned that the Western movie is diminishing in importance as we move further from that era. That't actually kind of a load of bull. It's unlikely that there will ever be another time in history with the same characteristics present in the westward expansion of America, replete with its lawlessness, frontier towns, mining towns, the expanding railroads, the gambling; an era before the automobile, when a man was lost without a good horse... –Bryan

The Western movie has never diminished in importance. Please pass me that DVD. GT

It could be argued that the western has diminished by observing the number of them made and tickets sold both of which are a small fraction of what was being made in the heyday of the genre. Most of what we consider historical accuaracy in these films is not. It is just that we were raised on westerns which taught us to treat the genre as historically accurate. Early weterns (thinking of JohnFord here) seem like they were storyboarded by Remington (the western painter who didn't spend his life in the west; although he visted once or twice) and BufaloBill's Wild West notice how the word "show" is omitted from the title of the show). Although I also have great affection for the genre also.

student o'history

Cowboys?

Just about every great Western features a confrontation between the good guys and the bad guys on a deserted, dusty street. Yet Wikipedia’s says "Cowboys play a prominent role in Western movies.” This is completely untrue using Wikipedia’s definition of cowboys as adept at herding livestock. It takes more than dressing like a cowboys to herd cattle. Though always considered a cowboy, the hero rarely demonstrates his ability with a rope. Instead it is his skill as a Gunfighter that is pivotal to the story. Cowboys in westerns are just part of the scenery, colorful bystanders often seen in town whoring, drinking, and gambling.

What do cattle herders know about gunslinging anyway?

Even Wikipedia’s own *"list of cowboys and cowgirls", with bios includes many who were not portrayed in movies as cattle herders.

• "Wyatt Earp" was a Gunfighter, officer of the law, gambler and saloonkeeper.
• "Virgil Earp" was a Gunfighter, soldier, city marshal of Tombstone, Arizona.
• "John Wesley Hardin" was an outlaw and Gunslinger. He admitted to killing more than 40 men.
• "Wild Bill Hickcock" was a stagecoach driver, Gunfighter, army scout, gambler, marshal, toured with Buffalo Bill's Wild West show.
• "Doc Holliday” was a gambler and a Gunfighter.
• ”Jesse James" was a Gunfighter who led one of history's most notorious outlaw gangs.
• "Buffalo Bill" was a trapper, bullwhacker, a Pony Express rider, wagon master, stagecoach driver, a soldier, and even a hotel manager.
• ”Ned Buntline” was a publisher, journalist writer, and publicist best known for his dime novels.
• ”Calamity Jane” a fighter and frontierswoman.
• ”The Sundance Kid” was an outlaw.
• ”Bat Masterson” was a buffalo hunter, U.S. Army scout, gambler, frontier lawman, U.S. Marshal and, finally, sports editor and columnist for a New York newspaper.
• "Annie Oakley" was a markswoman.
• "Belle Starr" was posthumously famous as an outlaw.

The Cisco Kid, *Lone Ranger, Cochise, Jose Wales, Jesse James, Hannie Caulder, Slick (Silverado), El Mariachi, English Bob, Etta Place, Ellen (Quick & the dead), Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, *The Man with No Name, Alias, Alter Keane, *Tonto, Geronimo, Maverick, *Shane, Texas Rangers, Calvera, *Red Ryder, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, *Zorro, these mythical figures of the old west were what westerns were usually about. These characters were not herding cattle. By Wikipedia’s current definition these are not cowboys.

If you take a great Western like The_Professionals, you have a group of mercenaries made up of a leader, an explosives expert, horsemen, and a tracker/longbow expert. Which of these cowboys herds cows?

“The western film genre often portrays the conquest of the wilderness and the subordination of nature, in the name of civilization, or the confiscation of the territorial rights of the original inhabitants of the frontier. Specific settings include lonely isolated forts, ranch houses, the isolated homestead, the saloon, the jail, the small-town Main Street, or small frontier towns that are forming at the edges of civilization. Other iconic elements in westerns include the hanging tree, Stetsons and spurs, lassos and Colt .45's, stagecoaches, gamblers, long-horned cattle and cattle drives, prostitutes (or madams) with a heart of gold, and more.” Source [1]

Cowboys play a prominent role in Western movies.” This is absolutely untrue. I look down through the list of top 50 westerns and few have cowboys in a prominent role. There are a few, Red River, Will Penny, Ox-bow sure but most movies have people wearing cowboy attire that has no business, tending cattle.

Fixed with a redirect -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo-

Cow "Boy"

I suspect that the association of Westerns and cowboys comes more to do with B-movie westerns, and even more to do with popular culture, than it has to do with the content of the most critically acclaimed films. TV westerns like Bonanza associated the genre with a ranch setting. Lasso tricks on a ranch setting often appeared in Roy Rogers movies; Lash LaRue used a trademark bullwhip. The stock phrase "cowboys and Indians" is the standard American English description of children's play with Western themes; "settlers and Native Americans" might be more accurate, but King Usage has decreed otherwise. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:53, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In popular culture, (I believe especially outside the USA), a "Cowboy"/"Cow-Boy" mainly means this sort of near super-hero vigiliante crimefighter unknown user

I can go for that, but I suspect in the Old West the “Boy,” part was a derogatory term GT

Not just Old. Modern cowhands hate being called "cowboys". They're wrangler (or cowhands...). Trekphiler 20:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Broncho Billy?

The caption to the picture from The Great Train Robbery calls the actor Broncho Billy. Was that how he spelled it? or was it the more conventional Bronco Billy? Broncho makes it sound like he had a respiratory problem. Smerdis of Tlön 14:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

seems to be Broncho see :

http://www.memorylanemagazine.com/broncho.htm

Ericd 18:30, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Google has under 600 hits for "Bronco Billy Anderson,” more than 900 for "Broncho Billy Anderson." Will change it back. Smerdis of Tlön 18:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Broncho sounds bad in French and probably in other language probably some distributors tweaked the name ?

• Gilbert M. 'Broncho Billy' Anderson, actor, born 21 March 1880, Sometimes credited As Broncho Billy Anderson. GT

Star Wars

Any insight as to why some people say Star Wars is more of a "western" than science fiction?

---o0o---

You can take any kind of story and put it on any kind of setting. As you are probably aware Kurosawa put a western story in Japan with excellent results.

In the current definition on the next page we say.

1. The clothes on your back.
2. Your gun, and
3. Your horse.

Star Wars people could be said to have all of these. They had clothes, they had guns, and they had horsepower. Western films are period art. What I think is also common to most westerns is the spectacular landscape, which was probably correct in parts of Star Wars also.

Back to the Future, depicted the nineteenth, early twentieth century “Old West,” period authentically, Star Wars did not. If I remember Battle Beyond the Stars (1980) was a Sci-Fi remake of a western.

We cannot let any story that has the basic ingredients of a western be a Western. The first real movie was a western; practically every movie takes from that in some way. Only westerns have the “Old West,” period and locations. Almost any story with these will “look,” like a western. That is not to say you cannot have a western in the future. Futureworld pulls it off, being a western in the future. The Western part of the story holds true to the locations and western period and of course it had a traditional gunslinger.

Popular westerns are heavily grounded in 19th century reality. Westerns with the supernatural or that suspend belief with magic, are very unpopular. The public does not appear to accept fantasy westerns as westerns unless they are cartoons. Look at it like this. You see the thing that many people forget is that these are picture stories. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

When you are channel surfing with the sound off, can you tell within a few frames, the difference between a western, and a Sci-Fi flick?

If you can, then you probably know what a western movie looks like. Star Wars does not "Look," like a western. GT

George Lucas was influenced by The Searchers. In particular, the scene where John Wayne returns and finds his brother's house set on fire by Comanches, is paralleled in the scene in A New Hope where Luke returns and finds his aunt and uncle's house set ablaze by Tusken Raiders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.239.95.121 (talk) 07:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Genre Studies and Westerns

Someone made a nice contribution with the first paragraph of Genre Studies and Westerns. However the second paragraph is opinion. What film set in the American west, looks like a western and is not a western?

Western's look like westerns.

No one changing channels with the sound off is going to identify Carlito's Way (1993) as a western even though it is a remake of the The Gunfighter. If the moving pictures do not pass the test of looking like a western, how can it be a "western moving picture?" GT

Westerns need not be romanticized tales of the American West

"The Western movie is one of the classic American film genres. Westerns are art works – films, literature, sculpture, TV shows and paintings – devoted to telling romanticized tales of the American West."

This statement may be generally true of older Westerns, but many Westerns over the past half century, especially those considered "revisionist" are not romantic at all. Though some would disagree with me, I think that the first dichotomy from the view of an American West governed by noble, patriarchal heroes was the Howard Hawks classic, Red River, in which we see John Wayne as a zealous and paranoid cattle baron. This continues in The Searchers, where Wayne's character is a little too revenge-minded and anti-Indian for the stereotypical Western hero. The Spaghetti Westerns were certainly not romantic, often featuring heroes motivated solely by greed. And then the true revisionist period comes, completely destroying the concept of a heroic American past in the West. Little Big Man, The Wild Bunch, and High Plains Drifter especially subvert many of the classic values of the Western.

So ultimately, I think this opening sentence must be changed. How about something like this: "Westerns are art works - films, literature, sculpture, TV shows and paintings - devoted to exploring the American past through the depiction of the West, usually focusing on frontier areas."

I hope the last bit on frontier areas will help settle the constant question of what exactly a Western is by geographical standards. It is an open and inclusive defintion, including many works of art that address the Western genre.

Open Range?

"The Kevin Costner western, Open Range, is seen by some as a revival of the genre."

Okay, let's be honest, who sees Open Range as a revival of the genre?

It has earned around $58 million domestically, which hardly qualifies it as a hit. If somebody were to say that Deadwood, the HBO TV series, was a sign of a coming revival, that would be more realistic. I'd love to see a revival of the Western, but Open Range is hardly the harbinger of one. -o0o-

I agree this revival stuff has been overdone. Westerns were around at the beginning and they are still around. There is nothing to be revived. Deadwood is excellent, the birth of government in the outlaw years. Westerns never left, they never went anywhere. There is no need to imply a return to something that has always been here. The significance of Open Range was that it was made on a short budget and like most westerns made money (worldwide over $68 million so far). GT

I took out the refernce to Open Range, as there's nothing new there. Every few years a couple big studio westerns are released, do decent business, but do nothing to "revive" the genre to anything like what it was decades ago. I also made some other changes, mentioning that the majority of westerns are set in the 19th century. If I overstated this a bit it can be reworded; I know some are set up to the 1930s or so, but they seem to be very few to me. Specifiying the setting got rid of the need for the list of technology that wasn't available; obviously there were no cell phones, etc. I also got rid of the 2nd person presentation of part of the article, as it doesn't read well. -R. fiend 21:15, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:57, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Photo Justus D. Barnes or Broncho Billy Anderson?

At [2], Justus D. Barnes is substituted for Broncho Billy Anderson in a photo. I'm not saying it isn't so, but I can't find a solid reference. At least [3] feels differently. Any takers?

dino 19:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Western Art?

I must admit that before reading this article, I did not think of "Westerns" as anything more than movies and TV shows. However, because the definition in the introduction to this article includes literature and fine art, I think that these areas must be explored more fully. Besides a few insignificant references to Louis L'Amour, Frederic Remington, and the like, there is really nothing in this article that addresses Westerns in terms of art and literature. There should be more in-depth explanations of writers like L'Amour, Zane Gray, and Wallace Stegner and artists like Frederic Remington and Albert Bierstadt.

Western movie article?

Should there not be a separate article on western films rather than lump films and literature together. Western film and Western movie both redirect to this article. I'm asking this partly because I just discovered a movie stub called Epic Western. I think there's enough detail to justify a separate article on western films. There's probably already one on Spaghetti westerns. JW 8 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)

• Well the genre article covers both pretty well, and since their themes are the same and only the format is different there would be a lot of overlap in two articles. If you think one or the other is not covered adequately in this article feel free to expand, and if one of the sections gets too long we can break it out then. -R. fiend 23:23, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization?

Should 'Western' (as in the compass direction) be capitalized? Should 'Western' (as in the genre) be capitalized? It's pretty random in the article as it currently stands. Anyone know what the rules are? The Singing Badger 19:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I came to ask the same thing. Western (capitalised) looks ok in a sentence, but science fiction Western looks very strange to me. Any definitive answer? If not, I'm going to move the SF western article to non-capitalised. Yobmod (talk) 13:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Brokeback Mountain

Some places are referring to this movie as a western. I rather disagree. I'd be interested to hear other ideas about it though.

Also: the Revisionist Western article could use some help. It needs a good explaination as to what is exactly being "revised". I'm clueless as to why that particular word is being used, because it has political connotations. --DanielCD 20:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I gave the 'revisionist' section an overhaul - the term is a common one in genre studies and has no specifically political connotations.

As for Brokeback, it's not a western in terms of story or structure but it uses images associated with the western (guys on horseback, hats, campfires, rodeos, etc.) as part of its effect. Its basic idea is to take a traditional image of hetero manliness (the cowboy and the freedom of the open landscape) and turn it upside down. Yeah? The Singing Badger 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it turns such things upside down, and in no way think that was the basic idea. The cowboy ("sheep boy") and the freedom of the open landscape aren't affected in any way. I disagree in that regard. The story stands in its own right, and isn't a reply to anything. --DanielCD 01:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The story can stand in its own right if you want it to. But the film has been labelled 'the gay cowboy film' for a reason. It's because people can see the western-like imagery.

The open landscape and the cowboy (OK, sheepboy) are affected. They still epitomise freedom, because the characters can only be free in when they're in the wilderness, but now the wilderness offers the freedom to be gay. That's why Brokeback is revising the meaning of an element of the genre (even if it doesn't follow that genre to the letter). Because cowboys aren't supposed to be gay. Ask John Wayne.

Wasn't John Wayne's real name "Marion"?

The very idea of a 'gay cowboy' seems inherently wrong in a way that a 'gay fashion designer' doesn't. If Brokeback had been a movie about air stewards, it wouldn't have the same shock factor. The film only raises eyebrows because it locates homosexuality in a society (conservative western America, a place where men traditionally model themselves on Western heroes, hence those hats), where it's not supposed to exist. So even if its storyline is only vaguely related to the Western, its boundary-busting nature comes precisely from associating Western imagery with a gay love story.

OK, we can't know if that's the 'basic idea' of the filmmakers. But it's certainly one of the film's potential effects (among many others). The Singing Badger 01:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

While a Western movie involving one or more homosexual protagonists is possible and feasible, Brokeback Mountain does not fit in this category because the main characters do not go about and do their own business no matter what others think about. Brokeback Mountain borrows elements from a Western, like the hats and horses, but ultimately if it would have been about two men in a hunting club, with plaid shirts and hunting caps, the effect would have been the same. Having cowboys does not make a movie a Western. ~~Unregistered, 22:30, 3 December 2006(UTC)

"Notable Western movies"?

Where did this list of "the big three" come from? As much as I love the 2 Sergio Leone films (& one of Leone's movies should be on this short list, I can't believe that not one of John Ford's many works -- as well as Sam Peckinpaw's The Wild Bunch wouldn't be included. (Knowing which film critic created this list might explain these choices.) -- llywrch 18:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Recent editing

I did some recent drastic editing. Sure I probably offended a few, but the article was removed from featured article status in part because it was growing like Microsoft's operating system, and becoming unmanageable. Something needed done, and the article needed drastic surgery. I chose to be the hatchet man. Also split off a few sub-articles to avoid polluting the main article.

dino 19:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Definition

"Westerns, by definition, are set in the American West, almost always in the 19th century, generally between the 1860's and 1900. Some incorporate the Civil War."

What about the Westerns of Gene Autry and Roy Rogers?

It was said of Autry that " his films took place in a world precariously balanced between the old West and the modern world, featuring (often in the same movie) runaway stagecoaches, barroom brawls, high powered cars, army tanks, and airplanes. Autry became not only the biggest moneymaking Western hero... . Autry

How could high powered cars, army tanks, and airplanes be 19th century?

What makes a Western movie, a Western, whether you see one frame of the directors cut, is the look. A western looks like a western. GT

Doesn't "Western" include "singing cowboy" pics? Trekphiler 20:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Images of non-men?

I just noticed that all the images are of men, generally white. Anyone have handy images of natives, women in "Western" contexts ...?

dino 19:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Australian Westerns

Somewhere there should be a mention of Westerns that take place in 19th Century Australia, such as The Man from Snowy River, Quigley Down Under, and The Proposition? Do they get their own category, or do they fall into the "regular" Western category? Simon Beavis

Looks like a Western

They look like Westerns, act like Westerns, so it’s pretty clear that they are Westerns.

What does ibdb.com do with them?  GT

Looks like a Duck

I removed this. Unless it's Gene Autry in disguise, it's not about Western movies & doesn't need to be here. Does anybody not know what a wrangler looks like? (And yeh, I'm from the West, so I'm vicariously offended by calling him "cowboy".) Trekphiler 20:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

A cowboy, 1887

Gone missing

I deleted this because it's not "Western movies"... If somebody wants to put it on a "Western lit" or "Lit" page, or rewrite it to make it germane, feel free. Trekphiler 21:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC) ==Western literature== Western fiction got its start in the "penny dreadfuls" and later the "dime novels" (see also Dime Western) that first began to be published in the mid-nineteenth century. These cheap books were published to capitalise on the many fanciful yet supposedly true stories that were being told about the mountain men, outlaws, settlers and lawmen taming the western frontier. By 1900, the new medium of pulp magazines helped to relate these adventures to easterners. Meanwhile, non-American authors like the German Karl May picked up the genre, went to full novel length, and made it hugely popular and successful in continental Europe from about 1880 on, though they were generally dismissed as trivial by the literary critics of the day.

The Virginian, published 1902, is considered by many to be the pioneering "literary" western novel, containing the core element of a rugged individual who stick to his guns in the face of trouble, neglecting chances to simply walk away. This seeming bundle of cliches was fresh and hugely popular in 1902, and elements of this formula appear in most Western stories ever since.

A Lash La Rue dime Western

Popularity grew with the publication of Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage in 1912. When pulp magazines exploded in popularity in the 1920s, western fiction greatly benefited (as did the author Max Brand, who excelled at the western short story). The simultaneous popularity of Western movies in the 1920s also helped the genre.

In the 1940s several seminal westerns were published including The Ox-Bow Incident (1940) by Walter van Tilburg Clark, The Big Sky (1947) and The Way West (1949) by A.B. Guthrie, Jr., and Shane (1949) by Jack Schaefer. Many other western authors gained readership in the 1950s, such as Luke Short, Ray Hogan, and Louis L'Amour. The genre peaked around the early 1960s, largely due to the tremendous number of westerns on television. In the 1970s, the work of Louis L'Amour began to catch hold of most western readers and he has tended to dominate the western reader lists ever since. George G. Gilman maintained a cult following for several years in the 1970s and 1980s. Readership as a whole began to drop off in the mid- to late '70s and has reached a new low today, and most bookstores, outside of a few western states, only carry a small number of Western fiction books. Nevertheless, several Western fiction series are published monthly, such as The Trailsman, Slocum, and Longarm. Western authors have an organisation that represents them called the Western Writers of America, who present the annual Golden Spur Awards.

===See also===

• List of Western fiction authors
• List of notable authors of Western novels

The article describes the Western genre as encompassing literature and film. I fail to see how removing the entire literature section of this article, referenced in the lead sentence, is justifiable and how said content is not germane. Someone looking for info on Western genre books is going to find nothing. Please clarify how this serves the readers. Planetneutral 15:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

What I meant to argue in that last comment was that the article needed to be rewritten to consistently acknowledge the cross-media application of the term Western. I agree that the way the literature section was originally implanted in the page, it was ineffectively surrounded by film-centric material, but I think that can be fixed without wholesale removal of the literature content. Planetneutral 16:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

We need to decide - should this article be primarily about films - so literature goes elsewhere - or should it be about the whole genre, which is both visual and written. -- Beardo 05:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

If we decide to separate Western film and literature into separate articles, they both need to be moved to more precisely named entries, since Western (genre) implies not only film and literature, but painting and other forms of expression. If this particular article is to live on (which I am supporting), then we need to bring the literature content back and rethink the article's organization. Planetneutral 06:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I believed, and believe, we need to split them into separate articles (which is why I made the delete in the first place). This page is strongly biased toward film. A page that includes both does full justice to neither. As it was, there was scant reference to major authors famous for Western novels, Louis L'Amour and Zane Grey, not to mention Larry McMurtry. Due reference to Western novels as source material, films made from novels and such ("Riders of the Purple Sage" was filmed, as I recall, & "The Outlaw Josey Wales" was based on Gone to Texas), should obviously, necessarily be included. Otherwise, Western books should be left out. So, too, the proliferation of Western comics from after WW2 (which probably could support a page all their own). For anybody searching "Western", a disambiguation page will easily take care of the various possibilities. Trekphiler 08:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I deleted & rewrote this, per above:

"The Western is an American genre in literature and film. Westerns are art works – films, literature, television and radio shows, sculpture (particularly that by Frederic Remington), and paintings – in literature and film." Westerns are art works – films, literature, television and radio shows, sculpture (particularly that by Frederic Remington), and paintings –

However, your half-solution has left this page in a strange limbo, with no mention of books at all. (Comic books are covered in a separate section). -- Beardo 08:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the rewrite to the intro fixes that. Go ahead & post the deleted section on a "Western books" page. (And there's clearly no "Western comics" page, regardless what other comics genres might be covered.) Trekphiler 08:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Science fiction is a good exemplar of how this page might be better set up. There, the focus is on literature, but there are appropriate and well-organized sections that acknowledge science fiction in its broader context and point to the appropriate in-depth articles (such as Science fiction film) where available. I think we can have a film-focused page here that accomplishes the same goals and can point to a stronger book-focused article. Loads of room for improvement with this article. Planetneutral 12:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's what I ended up doing. I turned Western fiction back into the page about literature (it had been redirected here back in 2005). I tweaked the lead sentence of this article a bit and also reconfigured the Western in other media section to incorporate the TV, literature and visual art angles in one spot with pointers to additional content. This leaves the central content focused on film, while not ignoring the other applications of the genre. Tell me what you think of it. Planetneutral 13:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The this article should be moved (or demerged) into a Westerm film or Western movie page. By the way comics (and games) are covered on the poorly title Western genre in other media page. -- Beardo 14:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Tan Maverick Esprit

Anybody think a mention of "Rockford Files" is warranted? It was a conscious adaptaion of Maverick in modern times... Trekphiler 21:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If you can provide citable sources stating that, go ahead. Otherwise, it's just OR. -- Beardo 08:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. I've seen a TV bio of Garner that sez so, I've heard him say it in interviews. I just can't cite a printed source. Trekphiler 08:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Restoration of deeted section

Since I last looked at this article somebody had removed the section "Perception" without giving any reason, or explaining it here. I think it IS useful and relevant, so I put it back. If the person who deleted it thinks it is wrong, please let him or her write here and explain why. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adam Keller (talk • contribs) 13:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

The 'Perception' Section

The perception section is not only poorly written and organized, but I question why it is here in the first place. Certainly it needs to be drastically shortened, with the thematic discussions of Liberty Valance and Once Upon a Time in the West cut out entirely, as they have nothing to do with the popular perception of the Western. I propose that a section detailing the changing popularity of the Western throughout the 20th century be added to the end, with some of the material from the 'perception' section condensed and moved. It is not necessary or encyclopedic to list clichés and generalizations of the Western unless we are discussing how those clichés have reinforced popular stereotypes of the Western as a dull and limited genre. I am going to go ahead and remove the obvious stuff from the 'perception' section, and I intend to eliminate the whole thing soon. --Rumblegoose 23:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I entirely agree with User:Adam Keller above that this section is useful, it is relevant, it reflects popular perception and, furthermore, it is well written and very logically presented. It is almost certainly derived from Kim Newman's book as the content mirrors his analysis, especially of the films quoted. I have therefore restored it and quoted Newman as the section source. --The Ghost | ^séance 23:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Eastwood For A Few.jpg

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 02:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Endless lists of names should at least be in columns

The list of Significant actors should proably be in a separate article somewhere with some kind of rationale.

However, in the meantime, I have returned to the COLUMN FORMAT which I created for the other groupings of names.

CAN WE AGREE THAT THIS IS BETTER THAN A LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG LIST OF NAMES ONE AFTER THE OTHER?? Viva-Verdi 20:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. However, I have to ask: are these names of people known as significant Western actors, or merely significant actors who may once have appeared in a Western? Christian Bale, for instance, has only ever been in one Western; he is not thought of as a "Western actor", he doesn't specialize and hasn't been typecast in Western roles, but he is a significant actor. Conversely, John Wayne is a significant Western actor, whose body of work consists primarily of Westerns. If you were to ask the man in the street to name a "Western actor", chances are good he would mention Wayne...and not Bale. So what really is the purpose of this list? If we pare it down to just those actors actually associated with the genre in the popular imagination, it would get lot shorter. 12.233.146.130 (talk) 20:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Removal of essay-style section which contrasts Ford film (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance) with Once Upon a Time in the West

Hi, An editor put in an essay-style section which contrasts a John Ford film with the movie Once Upon a TIme in the West. I have removed this section, and here are my reasons. First of all, this is a general article on the Western genre in film, TV, literature, and art. It does not make sense that the article should have a detailed discussion of 2 Western films in the beginning of the article, even before we have got to the Western films section. Even within the Western film section, such a detailed discussion of 2 films is out of step with the rest of the article, which gives a broad overview of the subgenres of Western films (e.g., SPaghetti Westerns, Revisionist Westerns, Sci-fi westerns). Second, even if it was moved to the Themes section, there are no references showing that these ideas come from a notable Western film historian. A shorter version of this analysis of the 2 films could go in the Themes section, except that it appears to be Original Research (see the rules against original Research at WP:OR)...Thirdly, the section is written in an essay style, rather than an encyclopedic style. Essay style is where an author gives a personal account or argument on a subject....Encyclopedias use a more referenced, fact-based approach that stands back from the subject in a more objective manner (e.g., According to film historian John Doe, the author of the film textbook Western-Smestern, the key elements of Western film were x, y, and z. However, film critic Jane Doe disagrees, claiming instead, in her book Western Films for Dummies, that the main elements are p, q, and r. In between these two views is popular culture historian Englepert Humpelpink, whose article Westerns Indeed claims that the main elements of Westerns were a, b, and c." For those of you interested in what was removed, here it is.....This contrast is shown to great effect in John Ford's 1962 film, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Married couple James Stewart and Vera Miles return to Shinbone long after the frontier has closed and find, as Vera Miles says, that "the wilderness has become a garden" and that there are now schools, churches and a courthouse. Then James Stewart reminisces via flashback about Shinbone in those wild and dangerous days when the likes of John Wayne, Lee Marvin, Edmond O'Brien, Lee Van Cleef, Strother Martin and Woody Strode were in residence. The cast of this film presents a fine cross-section of the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful that are the key personnel of most westerns. For every good guy like Stewart, Gary Cooper or Charles Bronson, there is an evil villain like Van Cleef, Gian Maria Volontè or Brian Donlevy; a beautiful heroine like Miles, Maureen O'Hara or Rhonda Fleming; and unforgettable "characters" like Martin, Jack Elam or Mildred Natwick. ...... The popular perception often misses the point that the Western is multi-faceted and that it contains several sub-genres with films that are essentially about the Indian Wars, the Civil War, the Mexican Wars, range wars, the railroad, wagon trains, cattle drives, prospecting, outlaws, gunfighters, town-tamers, revenge, quests and even romance. These often mix. A classic example of this is Once Upon a Time in the West which begins with Charles Bronson arriving by train and ends with the railroad reaching the desert homestead as he rides off. In between, the movie centres on Claudia Cardinale’s quest to leave behind her sordid past and establish herself as the mother of a new community. She succeeds but she does so only because of Bronson’s indestructible presence and to understand this film it is necessary to know it is really about revenge. Bronson from first to last is the key character, the one in control, and it is his motive that starts and ends the film and determines its course. Although he famously dismisses man as "an ancient race", he himself represents the last of this ancient race for the arrival of the railroad and the establishment of Sweetwater and Flagstone are events that helped to close the frontier. The "real men" are nearly all gone by the end. Bronson is the only one left and he rides away to an uncertain and purposeless future. Possibly his character mirrored Shane and it may be conjectured that the end of OUTW flows seamlessly into Shane, another movie in which the gunfighter acknowledges that his time is over. When Shane rides away he is wounded, so perhaps the last of these real men rode into the hills to die. Nazamo (talk) 20:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)\

Hello who are you????

Notable Westerners

I've removed the following for being an originally researched indiscriminate list not appropriate for a prose article:

Click "show" to see

{{{2}}}

 Skomorokh  01:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)