Talk:USS Doris Miller

Requested move 21 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED (non-admin closure) --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:47, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

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USS Doris Miller (CVN-81) → USS Doris Miller – Only ship of this name. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 00:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - This is the second vessel named after Doris Miller, and people searching just for “USS Doris Miller” could be looking for either. I’ve also updated the disambiguation page that currently exists at USS Doris Miller, to clarify that both ships are named after the same sailor and Navy Cross recipient. Perhaps someday, like after CVN-81 is actually built and commissioned under this name (if it is), it’ll be so much more notable than the other ship to deserve the redirect. Shelbystripes (talk) 01:19, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

  Named for, sure. But it's not the exact same name. Thus, stated Wikipedian policy regarding this matter demands a move. The request is just a formality since I can't move it on my own due to lacking the requisite administrative tools. After the move you can put a hatnote at the top of the page regarding the other ship. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 03:33, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

  Changing to support, as you are correct. The hatnote would be appropriate. Shelbystripes (talk) 04:45, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• The Offical US Navy name for the ship is USS Doris Miller (CVN-81). The proper convention for identifying a ship is USS Shipsname (hull designation). Also see Wikipedia articles for USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) and USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) which includes the hull designation. Nicalife (talk) 12:28, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• No, the official name is Doris Miller. The USS only gets added when the ship is commissioned and only if it is a commissioned warship. The hull number 81 will remain the same but the ship's hull identification symbol, CVN can change irrespective of the ship's name. So per WP:NC-SHIPS, we go by what the reliable sources state and unless we are looking at a list of naval ships or official US Navy documents, most WP:RS do not use the hull number and identification symbol. Therefore we use it here only as a way of distinguishing between two ships of the same name. Since there is no other ship named USS Doris Miller (there was another ship named for him but as just Miller), there is no need for the hull identification symbol and number. See USS Carl Vinson and USS Harry S. Truman. Llammakey (talk) 13:00, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• So a reliable source would be the specific US Navy Regulation, United States Navy Regulations, 1990, Article 0406. 4. Ships and service craft designated “active status, in service,” except those described by paragraph 3 of this article, shall be referred to by name, when assigned, classification, and hull number (e.g., "HIGH POINT PCH-1" or "YOGN-8")." Nicalife (talk) 15:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Note - Wikipedia favors WP:INDEPENDENT sources and using the WP:COMMONNAME seen in those reliable independent sources. A ship such as CVN-80 (Enterprise) will typically be referred to in reliable, independent sources as "USS Enterprise" or "planned/future USS Enterprise" whether or not she has been commissioned and formally given "USS" designation yet (see here for example). Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE, in the absence of ambiguity, the appropriate name to use would be "USS Enterprise." The hull designation is used on the ship's Wikipedia page (USS Enterprise (CVN-80)) only for disambiguation purposes, because more than one ship of that name exists. The Doris Miller is the first ship with that exact name, so no hull designation is necessary, and the move to USS Doris Miller is appropriate. Shelbystripes (talk) 02:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

• USN policy is irrelevant here, as far as Wikipedia article titles are concerned. We only put the hull designator after the ship name in article titles if there's more than one ship of the exact same (emphasis mine) name. Since this is the first USN ship with this exact name, the hull designator is superfluous and would not be included in the article title (see WP:CONCISE). – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 23:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Undecided, but leaning to support At this point I am undecided but leaning to support. Clearly the present and accepted practice is to omit hull designations unless two or more ships of the exact same name exist. That seems to be the existing precedent with navy ships. If we are to consider changing that precedent, I think it would be proper to notify Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history, Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships and any other concerned WikiProject and have a wider discussion as to whether or not to change current precedent in regards to all Navy ships. For the time being, I will support the proposal in line with existing practice and in accordance with WP:CONCISE as explained by the previous editor above. Safiel (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Not Opposed Seems I created the "mess". WP Ships naming convention should be consulted. At first reading would seem to indicate not moving. But the note negates the statement in this case. Seems like that note should be the section lead. And I don't know if anyone looked ahead, but USS Doris Miller exists as a ship list. I'd like to keep a ship list for Miller, even if it isn't technically for disambiguation. Anyone have a suggestion on what to name that list? J Clear (talk) 18:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: The only information in the ship list currently at USS Doris Miller not already also in the one at USS Miller is that USS Miller (FF-1091) was named after Doris Miller. If we added that fact, would we really need both? Andrewa (talk) 10:04, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

References

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.