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Talk:Turkey/Archive 34

< Talk:Turkey
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Liuxinyu970226 in topic Change please Turkey to Turkiye,even our country means on international platforms Türkiye
Archive 30 ← Archive 32 Archive 33 Archive 34 Archive 35 Archive 36 → Archive 40

Requested move 3 June 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago138 comments89 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a strong consensus that the common name for the country in English is "Turkey". Closed early per WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Turkey → Turkiye – On 1st of June 2022, The united nation accepted a request from the turkish government to use the name (Turkiye) as an official name, to match its pronunciation in Turkish and Arabic languages, and to prevent similarities with words that have other meanings. This event is published on Al Jazeera web-site. Thanks for you. Dr-Taher (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
  • UN list contains tens (!!!) of differences so Wikipedia does not blindly follow it
  • previous country renamings on Wikipedia took at least months after name change and some has not happened to this day
  • Turkey has long history so the change is more difficult
Czech Republic has only 30 years history and name change on Wikipedia has not happened yet, 6 years after official UN registration and mild successes in sources
English language already knows knows the name Czech, knows -ia, knows Czechoslovakia, so Czechia is quite logic construction (oppose to Türk-iye)
Czechia does not contain special letters like ü
So Czechia is ahead of Tükiye for now, with better case and fails too, so Türkiye is not eligible
Eswatini is relativelly unknown country so renaming was easy and sources proved it (not just sources about the renaming, but casual mentions too)
North Macedonia was proven by sources, also it was special case on its own
  • pronunciation in English is not clear, u/ü is not clear, adjective is not clear
  • argument that we should grant country's wishes - yes, after we see that secondary sources do so
  • like every single instance of Tu/ürkiye in sources say about the name change and nothing else, the sources do not use it yet
  • not clear for which time period it should be used - from now on, or for past references too?
  • wait for ISO, US departement of state, UK ministry of defence - further reading about timeline of country name changes in past 100 years etc.
  • trans celebrity argument (mentioned somewhere before or after my comment) is not good for country naming discussion
But I'm in favour of Türkiye in LEDE as "also known as Türkiye" or "rarely Türkiye" or at least note with "for alternative names see Name paragraph"
I'm in favour of "Türkiye at the 2024 Summer Olympics" (and similar sport articles) if Turkey manages to compete under such name (team name versus country name - no need of mindless unity) Chrz (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC) & Chrz (talk) 07:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Düsseldorf "ü" Arialu (talk) 19:19, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. Wikipedia does not necessarily follow UN naming conventions. Otherwise the Taiwan article would have a different name. Marcus Aurelius 17:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Support: This is similar to the Cote d'Ivoire and Cabo Verde situation. Should an English name be changed to what its country wants? Well, the UN recognizes it, and it's an official English language name change, so it should be changed. 131552A (talk) 17:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The "Türkiye" vs. "Turkiye" situation is simply a war of technicalities. Like most all non-English languages names in English, one simply removes the dieresis and any other accentuation marks not in English and thus the name is now to English grammar standards. 131552A (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
That's not how it always works, for example the German surname "Müller" becomes "Mueller" and not "Muller" in English. How it is anglicized depends on the language, the letter Ü here in "Türkiye" might not be equivalent to the English letter U. Folohsor (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Support Swaziland was renamed within a week even though its newest name is incomprehensible. ukrainian cities were also all quickly renamed save for 1 DzhungarRabbit (talk) 17:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
I agree. The eSwatini example holds up and the name was indeed changed relatively quickly. The capitalization also is controversial and doesn't comply with English grammar, and people just changed it to "Eswatini". The same should apply here. 131552A (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Oppose This move cannot take place until Czech Republic is moved to Czechia. Piotrek54321 (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
  • COMMONNAME absolutely does apply - it's a policy, so it can't be ignored. If the new name becomes the common name, the article should be moved then, not now; exactly as it happened with eSwatini, 6 months after the name changed. This is absolutely too early. Black Kite (talk) 11:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
    Also, eSwatini was initially bvelieved to be the name, later clarified or changed to Eswatini. Maybe Turkey will adapt Türkyie to Turkiye, or Turkia? :) Chrz (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Türkiye
https://en.volleyballworld.com/volleyball/world-ranking/women
https://en.volleyballworld.com/volleyball/competitions/vnl-2022/news/karakurt-and-erdem-help-turkiye-get-back-on-track Arialu (talk) 02:16, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Strongly support Türkiye Düsseldorf Arialu (talk) 02:21, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose, if you plan to move the page, it should go to Türkiye if that name does come into more widespread & common usage. "Turkiye" an incorrect spelling of actual official name, "Türkiye". The Ü is a distinct letter in this language and not just a modified U, so writing it as "Turkiye" is a spelling error, like writing it as "Tjrkiye" or "Tbrkiye" would be. If you want to change it into a word without the Ü, then I don't know what letters should replace it, in German the Ü can be replaced with UE like in the surname Müller/Mueller, but it is probably different in a different language here. Folohsor (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
    Düsseldorf Arialu (talk) 19:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Support So I speak as an Italian citizen. I can tell you that in Italy all Turkish products are written "Made in Türkiye". There is no "Made in Turkey". Afterwards it is useless to say that in the English alphabet there is no letter ü because so what are the English pages of Zürich or Düsseldorf written in this way doing ?. The only thing to see is whether in the short term, in English, we will use the common word Turkiye or Türkiye. I believe more Turkiye. Eraldo100 (talk) 23:06, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Very strong support. Turkey is now Turkiye and to intentionally call it anything else would be to spread misinformation. For those citing WP:COMMONNAME, it’s only been a day. And “Macedonia” is still the common name for the country known as “North Macedonia”, but the wiki article for that country was still renamed. This is literally no different — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.192.236 (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Weak oppose: It is possible that in the near future the country will be popularly referred to in the press and elsewhere in the English-speaking world as "Türkiye" (with or without the diaeresis), the same way that Persia is now Iran and Peking is now Beijing. Until and unless that happens, though, the name "Turkey" continues to dominate. FreeMediaKid$ 05:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per the above arguments. Based on some of the opposing users' arguments I feel like this issue is turning into a political battle against the figure of Erdogan rather than the actual issue of the country's rebranding, even though the move is widely supported by Turks.--Moester101 (talk) 06:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
    Support by the Turks does not necessarily mean that it must be changed immediately. Sure, this is a strange issue considering the French flag, Eswatini, and North Macedonia had their RFCs implemented very quickly, but it might confuse readers not involved in current events, especially when it involves a majorly established country that has been known as “Turkey” for centuries. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 06:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. --173.238.195.247 (talk) 06:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose: my issue with this isn't because of WP:COMMONNAME, as Türkiye will undoubtedly become the most common name eventually. My issue is that it is far too early to move it. When Türkiye becomes the most common name, we should move it then, but it isn't the most common name now. For the record, if a proposal to move Ivory Coast to Cote d'Ivoire ever happens in the future, I'd support that, as that is its most common name. Türkiye, however, isn't the most common name for Turkey right now, so we shouldn't move it just yet. Do-Droppy (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
The official name is "Türkiye" and not "Turkiye" - the "Ü" is a different letter in this language (and not just a modification of "U"), so writing it as "Turkiye" is a spelling error. Folohsor (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, in Turkish it would be a spelling error. That has nothing to do with how the name is rendered in other languages. 'Turkiet' in Swedish, 'Turquía' in Spanish, 'Turkaland' in Faroese are not spelling errors, neither would 'Turkiye' be in English. But I actually do not expect it to be called that. --T*U (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
But "Turkiet" in Swedish, "Turquía" in Spanish, "Turkaland" in Faroese (and "Turkki" in Finnish) are names native to those languages, not names used by Turkey itself. If we want to use a native English name for the country in English, "Turkey" is perfectly fine. JIP | Talk 18:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
@JIP: I totally agree. My point was just to stress that Turkey cannot dictate what is right or wrong spelling in any other language, including English. --T*U (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes. If in the future, Turkiye ends up being adopted as the English name of the country, then it would not be a spelling error in English - pretty much by definition.
But if Türkiye were adopted, then Turkiye would not be considered a significant spelling error either. English-speakers have a habit of shearing diacritics off words, even including personal names.
But that's what might happen if things change. There's no current reason to assume that English-speakers won't continue to refer to Turkey for decades and even centuries to come. Kahastok talk 18:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Baden-Württemberg
Camagüey
Ü-Tsang
Kitzbühel Arialu (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
@Arialu:, I appreciate that you're new to this, but in general you will make your point much more effectively if you tell us what it is rather than leaving us to try and guess. Scattering the talk page with random place names is not helpful to anyone. Kahastok talk 20:04, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I think their point is that "ü" does, in fact, appear in multiple names used for various places in English (and in the English Wikipedia titles of them). Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:24, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Strongly support: Turkiye or Turkey has the right to choose it's name as a sorveign state. If Myanmar and Eswatini can change their name, so can Turkey. Iran changed its English name from Persia to its local name. So using the same logic Turkey, Türkiye, Türkiye or Turkland can also rightfully change its name. Here I am using this website (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You already voted once, albeit somewhat ambiguously. I see a lot of people here arguing basically that they want to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, that Turkey somehow has some kind of moral right to have its desires represented on this Wikipedia article. No, it doesn't. If English usage changes, we change. If it does not change, then it is not for us to try and change it. We follow changes that occur on their own. We do not attempt to lead it. Kahastok talk 18:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Amen. I would prefer that it be called Türkiye too, but WP:COMMONNAME applies. Just be patient and wait till it catches on (if it catches on), people. Yekshemesh (talk) 01:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong Support of the rename. I'm aware of the COMMONNAME policy but feel it stands in the way of a site as large as Wikipedia being used as a force-for-good in informing the general public of the rename to Turkiye. The country's new name was adopted for well-argued reasons and stands to be a much more heavily promoted change from Turkiye's part in comparison to the under-the-radar acceptance of Czechia alongside its longform name. Keeping the name Turkey stands directly against the wishes of the country (again in contrast to the more muted impact seen from Czechia) and I feel Wikipedia owes it to Turkiye to not misrepresent them after passing through all official channels to not only adopt the new name and pronunciation of Turkiye for English speakers, but specifically remove Turkey as an accepted name. ToastUltimatum (talk) 03:25, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
    • With that said however, it seems fairly clear that the vote will again opt in favour of keeping the outdated name, so if this is to be the case, I at least think there is a compromise to be made with the opening line of the paragraph. Even with Turkey retained as the article title, I think it would be fair to reword the introductions to reflect the official name first before integrating the COMMONNAME principle into the text itself:
The Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti] ⓘ), more commonly referred to as Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye [ˈtyɾcije]), is a transcontinental country...
This would be in line with the United Kingdom article for example, which mentions United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its introduction before using the term United Kingdom. WP:COMMONNAME is a policy specific to article titles, but in the factual coverage of the introduction, I believe the new official name of the country must be mentioned before proceeding with the former name that the country wishes to phase out. ToastUltimatum (talk) 03:58, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
São Tomé and Príncipe is different to the other cases because that actually is the country's common English name; nobody calls it Saint Thomas and Prince. YttriumShrew (talk) 21:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
The Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti] ⓘ), commonly known as Turkey,...

just in the same form as the United Kingdom article:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,...

Gu0427 (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment It's ridiculous to suggest this should be moved to 'Turkiye' and not 'Türkiye,' but I'd like to see all the COMMONNAME opposition tell me what's different in this case compared to that of eSwatini, which is definitely still more commonly called 'Swaziland' (14.4 million 'Swaziland' to 12.4 million 'eSwatini' Google results in the past year—and many of the latter undoubtedly influenced by Wikipedia's change). 104.246.222.113 (talk) 18:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
    Who’s to say that was “right” or will stick. See WP:OTHERCONTENT and WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. DeCausa (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Support for Türkiye, even though it seems that some people don't want to change the name today, I'm sure in the future it will probably be changed through enough usage by news outlets and academic journals. People don't like change but it is what it is. I also think it should retain the two dots on the ü like in Zürich Amir Abdullah (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment If my math is correct, the !votes are as follows: 70 total !votes, 19 supports (including the nom), 51 opposes. Consensus will not develop to move the page. I would WP:SNOW close it myself if I wasn't involved.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:39, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: Per User:Arialu's comments, I wish to repeat that the issue is not "accent marks are evil" but that Turkey is unilaterally trying to change the common name in English. I would oppose the propsal regardless of whether Turkey wanted to use Turkiye or Türkiye. JIP | Talk 01:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. There are many countries whose official or native names are different from the ones used commonly by English sources. Some of the examples are Japan (Nippon), Spain (España), Germany (Deutschland), Italy (Italia), etc. Keivan.fTalk 05:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. They officially changed their name. Sources will catch on. On Wikipedia changing the article name reduces the confusion between the country and the bird, an issue not present with the Czech Republic or Czhechia situation, there is no poultry involved in that dispute that is a very common word. --StellarNerd (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
    Check Republic, Cheque Republic... confuuuuusing... Poor hungry Hungary, finish Finnish and polish Polish :) Chrz (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
    Turkey/turkey = homophone & homograph. Polish/polish = homophone & homograph, but /wiki/Polish & /wiki/polish both lead to a disambiguation page, whereas /wiki/Turkey & /wiki/turkey both lead to the country's page. The rest of your examples differ in spelling, which, in a discussion about ambiguity in a written encyclopedia, matters more than pronunciation. Comm.unity (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment Some name changes should defer less overwhelmingly to the WP:COMMONNAME guideline in cases where the reason for the change is to avoid belittling & possibly pejorative connotation—ostensibly part of Turkey/Turkiye's reason. This type of reason, if genuine, goes above & beyond the circumstances of a country name like Cabo/Cape Verde, where the word in question is simply a literal translation of a common noun. Comm.unity (talk) 20:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to rename Turkey (the bird) to Türkiye

Latest comment: 2 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

As türkiyes are named after türkiye I feel as though the reason for doing so is self evident. However, additionally it would also bring awareness to the name change itself and put a spotlight on the right of indigenous peoples to be referred to using their own language (such as Kiev and chicken kievs now being Kyiv and chicken kyivs in many butchers). It'd be a trivial way to show that the Wikimedia Foundation's volunteers support Türkiye's name change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.4.85 (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Addendum: "Chicken Kiev (Ukrainian: котлета по-київськи, kotleta po-kyivsky; Russian: котлета по-киевски, kotleta po-kiyevski, literally "cutlet Kyiv-style")[note 1] or Chicken Kyiv" from the chicken kiev page. Can we get something like this for the turkey (bird) page? Just a small addition that says they're also known as türkiyes. I feel as that would be appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.4.85 (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

  Not done This is not the page to request a move for Turkey (bird). Request it on that article’s talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CollectiveSolidarity (talk • contribs) 17:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

My bad dude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.4.85 (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Surely you meant that as a joke :) Someone here took it seriously lol. Yekshemesh (talk) 04:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Check Talk: Turkey (bird). Edit requests should be never treated as a joke. Unless it is obviously patent nonsense. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 05:18, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Please change all uses of "Turkey" to "Türkiye". That is now the official UN spelling. Jacksonmcdonald3425 (talk) 06:19, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2022 (2)

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

It says the driving side is right. That is incorrect. It is the left. 2A01:4B00:8463:1700:2188:916C:42F2:2C83 (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  Not done: It is right according to this website. Do you have a source for your claim, or are you just looking out the window from your location in the UK? Favonian (talk) 20:55, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
Or are you confused between the side of the road driven on and the location of the driver within the vehicle?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 03:48, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
2A02:842A:84B8:5B01:4C0E:9AC6:69EA:BAA1 (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Türkiye

comment I assume you are referring to the news that the President of Turkey wants the country to be called "Türkiye" In my opinion, this should not be edited yet, until there is wide adoption of the name by the media. The Wikipedia policy is to use the widely used version of the name. Elliswiki7 (talk) 18:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
  Not done: Get consensus first. See similar requests on this page. RudolfRed (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 June 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"Turkey" should be changed to "Türkiye" 46.114.91.126 (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Lead sentence - mention Türkiye as official name

Latest comment: 2 years ago35 comments14 people in discussion

Given all the hubbub around the official name change, I would like to propose a mention of the official name being "Türkiye" in the lead, in a somewhat similar fashion to Ivory Coast / Côte d'Ivoire:

Turkey, officially Türkiye (Turkish: [ˈtyɾcije]) and in long form the Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti] ⓘ)

Appreciate any good faith feedback, especially in terms of wording and ensuring good prose. MSG17 (talk) 11:53, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

It is "UN official short name". ISO says Turkey. UK recognizes Turkey as official short name. USA - CIA says it's Turkey. Britannica - Turkey... etc. Which source has a privilege to declare "official" names in English language? Check UNGEGN and you will see dozens of differences between Wikipedia and UN what is considered official name (short and long). Chrz (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't mean to say official as in "the official name decided by a language regulator/external authority", but official as in "officially sanctioned by the Turkish government". Of course, Turkey is still by and far the common name. MSG17 (talk) 12:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, and I say: In the sentence "Turkey, officially Türkiye", according to who is it official? And is there only one main authority which decides offficial ENGLISH name? Turkish government is able to create official Turkish short name and official Turkish political name. UN lists official names for its intentions and purposes but is it "the official" name to be in the lead? Is there only one official short name in English for this country and who announces it? Also, editors here do not differentiate between official and formal. They think that there's some kind of common (usually very short) name, which is totally unofficial, and then the official name meaning political name for diplomacy. UN and ISO lists up to 2 names for each country and both of them are official, so...
Also, "official English name" and "English translation of official name in foreign language" are generally 2 different things and we are looking for the first one. Chrz (talk) 12:51, 4 June 2022 (UTC) Chrz (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
There is no such thing as an "official English name" in the sense you mean. For the simple reason that there is no controlling body for the English language. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:23, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
So WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY does every single article does have "officially" in LEDE? Wikipedia-officially I gues >:( Chrz (talk) 17:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
No, that is "official" as in "what the country calls itself in English". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:10, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
UN official names: Short name, Formal name
ISO official names: Short name, Full name
Yet another typical terminology: Geographical name, Political name
What country calls itself in English: typically 2 names, short and long
Wiki terminology: Common name, Official name Chrz (talk) 21:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Or perhaps, Turkey or Türkiye, officially Republic of Türkiye. Beshogur (talk) 19:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

The name the country uses, Republic of Türkiye, should of course be noted both in infobox and lede. It already is, though, so I assume there's nothing to do in regards to this? Jeppiz (talk) 22:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

-My ignorant opinion:
I can understand they wanting to deviate from the English word for turkey/bird..

Although in a way it should be irrelevant to them,
if ignorant English speakers mistake the name with whatever animal name/connotation, then it's the english speaker's problem/fault..
Turks shouldn't care of what another group of ppl understand,
and anyway in each and every language the name will be adapted differently..

However, I think the new orthography is also wrong/misleading to other languages.

For instance, me being Spanish/Catalan will read the word Turkiye just as it's written: Tur-ki-ye
But when you listen a Turkish person's pronunciation it's just like: Tur-kie

So yeah, now for being nitpicks everyone will start pronouncing it like Tur-ki-ye,
and then they will complain that it makes it sound more like russian/slav languajes..

Meanwhile in Spain we will keep calling it Turquia,
so what's the point? Quintessence7 (talk) 08:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Precedent: Czechia registered in July 2016 -> Wikipedia adds "also known as Czechia" to LEDE in a matter of days. I think Türkiye is entitled to this too. Chrz (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

We should only say that it is "also known as Türkiye" if we can demonstrate that that is true, to any significant degree. Nobody has even tried to do that yet. Kahastok talk 17:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Is "known as" is too much? We can drop it to: "also Türkiye". Or add "in diplomatic circles". Chrz (talk) 17:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
No, it's too much WP:WEIGHT to give to this point, based on the actual level of usage. It belongs in the Name section. Kahastok talk 18:17, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
It would result in the word Türkiye appearing four times in the opening sentence compared to Czechia appearing once in the first sentence of its article.. Overkill is another way of conveying WP:UNDUE. DeCausa (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
So? 2 of those are Turkish, you can hide them into a note, just like with the Czech Republic article (why are they hidden I don't know, maybe because of Bohemia it is "too much names" or whatever). "Türkiye" and "Republic of Türkiye" are two different proper nouns no matter they look similar. LEDE typically contains both: XYZ and Republic of XYZ (when formal political name is in such substantive form). Chrz (talk) 20:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
It’s irrelevant that “2 of those are Turkish”. It’s a Turkish word. Why would would you hide them in a note. that makes no sense. Too much of this discussion is about making a point rather than thinking about conveying information to the reader. There’s already 3 words in the opeing sentence tells the English-speaking reader that Türkiye is a word for Turkey. We don’t need a fourth. The reader has well and truly got the message already. in the Czech Republic article the reader is told only once that Czechia is a word for the country. That’s the difference. DeCausa (talk) 20:59, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Your proposal: LEDE will not say that Türkiye is alternative English name of the country. THAT's the difference. It will say that Türkiye is Turkish name for the country and that political name in English is Republic of Türkiye. No word about "just Türkiye" in English, because reader can peel it off / deduce it from that "Republic of Türkiye"? Better just to say it than to create word puzzles for readers. Or hypotetic scenario: Türkiye becomes commonname - you say, do not include it in LEDE, too much Türkiyes. Strange. Chrz (talk) 21:10, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
”Puzzles for readers”. What are you talking about? It says “officially the Republic of Türkiye”. How can “also known as Türkiye“ possibly add anything worthwhile? It doesn’t. it’s just pointless and repetitive - and it’s on top of “(Turkish: Türkiye)” and “(Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti}”. How many times and how many different ways do we have to say that Türkiye means Turkey? DeCausa (talk)
I let someone else deal with it, someone who cares more. I am fed up with this "my opionion is THE TRUTH so consensus is what I say". "Türkiye" and "Republic of Türkiye" are two different proper nouns, they are both valid, we should list them both in full - that is worth a while. Chrz (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
‘"Türkiye" and "Republic of Türkiye" are two different proper nouns“‘ makes no sense. There’s only one proper noun, Türkiye, repeated twice. Once on its own and once with a modifier. It’s ironic that you complain about "my opionion is THE TRUTH so consensus is what I say" then go on to do exactly that: “they are both valid, we should list them both in full”!! DeCausa (talk) 21:46, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Czech Republic precedent - "also known as" in LEDE starts with UN registration. Or was it last straw?
Ivory Coast precedent - how to list names which are pushed into English but are clearly foreign in nature. "Why would would you hide them in a note. that makes no sense." Hm....
My way - precedents, analogies, custom practice, previous consensuses, bigger truth :P Chrz (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Unfortunately “your way” isn’t Wikipedia’s way, per WP:OTHERCONTENT. We don’t do “precedent” in in that way because “anyone can edit an article”. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is just that. DeCausa (talk) 22:05, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, let's do the same thing 10 different ways, just for the sake of it. First sentence is typical object of edit wars and then consensuses based on analogies. Examples of previous result help greatly, no need to hustle over the same thing all over. Chrz (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
I’ve just realised you don’t have much WP experience. Consensus and approaches being different between articles is the norm and consensus within an article changes over time anyway. “Precedent” just doesn’t work here. Nothing, but nothing, is set in stone. That’s just how it is. DeCausa (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Turkey, the victim at X-mas in Britain, US etc) is in German: TRUTHAHN. I would suggest :-) to change the present name of the country in: TRÜTHANIYE. By saving the Ü, of course.
Best from Germany. :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orientalist (talk • contribs) 08:45, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Unification of the first sentence is pretty common thing. Better resolve the format (formats) once than argue again and again with each and every article. Chrz (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Fully agreed. While the lede implies that Türkiye is the name in Turkish, the fact that "Türkiye" (on its own) is an alternate name that exists IN ENGLISH is yet to be mentioned in the lede. Secondly, they ARE two different proper nouns. Thirdly, Ivory Coast's lede begins with "Ivory Coast, also known as Côte d'Ivoire, officially the Republic of Côte d'Ivoire". East Timor's lede begins with "East Timor, also known as Timor-Leste, officially the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste". i.e. BOTH of them mention all three forms of the name "XXX, also known as YYY, officially the Republic of YYY". The words "Turkey, also known as Türkiye" should be added to the lede. Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
I would say that the "also known as" isn't required if the official name includes the alternate name --Spekkios (talk) 08:33, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Talk:List_of_sovereign_states#Differences Chrz (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Source link from the United Nations: Turkiye –Furkan (talk) 16:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we can use “Turkiye” from the title. But we should also add ”Türkiye”, which is the official name, to the introductory sentence. –Furkan (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
+Source link from UEFA: UEFA –Furkan (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
If the title isn't changed to Turkiye then the North Macedonia article should revert back to Macedonia. DOMINATOR1000 (talk) 14:58, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Turkey to "Türkiye"

Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion

I think we should change the shorthand name to Türkiye as well considering that's what its officially now know as, will be the common term referring to it going forward and would just be confusing to have contradicting names on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:14B4:3400:C469:D25F:D0EA:5F3E (talk) 08:51, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Pretty hypocritical how trans people who change their names get their articles renamed the very same day, but when a country with millions of people changes their name, the opinions of the UN and some randos on wikipedia somehow matter more than their own government. Stop the selectiveness and hypocrisy. They are Turkiye now, simple as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.192.236 (talk) 22:11, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. How can we have one rule for North Macedonia, but a different one for this article? A name has been changed, it should reflect that in the same way that it has for the North Macedonia article. DOMINATOR1000 (talk) 14:56, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
The name had not changed, Turkey simply ordered that the Turkish variant of it's name should be used in other languages. It can not order that, it can only ask that. Every language decides for itself witch names to use. Turkey has no authority over the English language. Türkiye is clearly not an English name, it does not follow English orthographic rules, therefore it's completely logic that the name will have more difficulties to catch on.--2A02:1811:CD07:E900:FD8A:1739:C6EA:C240 (talk) 22:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

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Participation of Swedish and Finnish Wikipedians in Turkey name change discussions

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Not going to gain consensus, and unenforceable even if it did. CMD (talk) 03:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am a bit concerned about the participation of Swedish and Finnish Wikipedians in discussions relating to the Turkey name change issue. Due to the recent NATO membership conflict involving Sweden, Finland, and Turkey, relationships between these countries deteriorated a lot. Some of the comments made by Swedish or Finnish Wikipedians in this talk page were clearly politically motivated and biased.

My suggestion is that Swedish or Finnish Wikipedians should refrain from participating in "Turkey name change"-related discussions any further as there is no way they could maintain WP:NPOV in this issue. Thank you for your cooperation. 2001:8003:9008:1301:1DEC:6878:4502:E89B (talk) 02:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

As I said above, there is no restriction on an editor based on the editor's nationality, nor will there ever be. This is bigotry, plain and simple. ValarianB (talk) 11:48, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes but let's ban all the nationalities that are clearly politically motivated and biased: Turkish editors first? (Sarcasm alert: for the avoidance of doubt, this is Ad absurdum.) DeCausa (talk) 14:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protection of this talk page

Latest comment: 2 years ago11 comments6 people in discussion

I know it is not a common thing to have a talk-page semi-protected, but are there any thoughts if it may be beneficial to go make a request at RfPP? Say 3 months or so of a cooling-down period so we don't have to answer "Change Turkey to Türkiye" every day, and similar? ValarianB (talk) 11:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Unlikely to be granted on that basis. Besides, it may never really go away. CMD (talk) 13:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Turkey struggles with name rebrand. Turkish Airlines are being renamed too, and it will be 100 times easier to rename a company on Wikipedia (people will agree more willingly) than a country. Chrz (talk) 16:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Why don't you want to discuss it? Eranvez1414 (talk) 02:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Because it's been raised and discussed multiple times and it is clear that there is no consensus to make the change. DeCausa (talk) 09:57, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Name change

Latest comment: 2 years ago22 comments13 people in discussion
Not changed. Kahastok talk 10:43, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It is disrespectful to disregard the will of Turkiye to rename the country. Thank you for your consideration. 2A01:C22:D471:EA00:3C1A:8343:FC86:A2BB (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Cabo Verde, Czechia, Timor-Leste, Côte d'Ivoire, Viet Nam... So now the club of Wikipedia's disrespect and disregard welcomes Türkiye (or Turkiye?!) :) "Will" is not enough. Chrz (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Rhodesia, Siam, Ceylon, Burma and many other countries will to change their names was accepted, why not Turkeys will, too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C22:D471:EA00:3C1A:8343:FC86:A2BB (talk) 22:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussed 100 times already. Those were "accepted" by newpaper, media, books. Chrz (talk) 04:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Just for comparison: other than discussion about the history of Siam/Thailand (primarily, but not limited to, discussion about the musical The King and I), and a couple of fixed phrases which use the word "Siamese" (a type of cat and conjoined twins), I don't think I had ever seen or heard the word Siam in any form. Animal lover |666| 14:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I guess you are young. I grew up with the name Siam and even the Pouges sing a song about "Summer in Siam" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C22:CC33:6C00:3C1A:8343:FC86:A2BB (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
It is disrespectful of erdogan to demand a change to a localized name with a long tradition just to get some nationalist voters on his side. as this is just that, a PR stunt, nothing should happen until the next election is over Norschweden (talk) 23:01, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I am a bit concerned about the participation of Swedish and Finnish Wikipedians in discussions relating to the Turkey name change issue. Due to the recent NATO membership conflict involving Sweden, Finland, and Turkey, relationships between these countries deteriorated a lot. Some of the comments made by Swedish or Finnish Wikipedians in this talk page were clearly politically motivated and biased. Some of them even deleted other people's comments and accused them as being "nationalists" while themselves were totally intolerant and acted in an unreasonable manner.
In order to avoid potential conflict, my suggestion is that Swedish or Finnish Wikipedians should refrain from participating in "Turkey name change"-related discussions any further as there is no way they could maintain WP:NPOV in this issue. Thank you for your cooperation. 2001:8003:9008:1301:1DEC:6878:4502:E89B (talk) 03:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Um, no, there is no restriction on an editor based on the editor's nationality, nor will there ever be. The mere suggestion of this reeks of bigotry. ValarianB (talk) 11:47, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
I didn't say we should restrict them. I just wanted to point out the issue and hopefully some of them would refrain from participating in the discussions to avoid further escalating the conflict. 2001:8003:9008:1301:1DEC:6878:4502:E89B (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
The NATO membership candidate conflicts between Finland+Sweden and Turkey are not related to foods, rather, that's about Kurds terrorism such as Gülen hareketi. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Please see this, which is at the top of this talk page. --Spekkios (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

It is entirely normal for English usage of the name of a sovereign state to change when the legal government changes it. This has happened many times in Africa, notably one of two states called Congo to Zaire and back.

It is observed with Myanmar and Sri Lanka.

So not changing it now is absurd.

The given reason is also sensible - Turkey is also the name of a bird, and a mildly disrespectful term.

There are of course many sovereign state happy to use the standard English name when writing in English. Deutchland as Germany, for instance. Or China for Zhōngguó. But that is their choice.

Given the pig-headed refusal of many Wikipedians to allow mere facts to override their wishes, I am not going to expend my own time doing this. But it definitely must happen. --GwydionM (talk) 08:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussed 100 times already: For example to cite great Kahastok's reply:
"If media organisations - specifically, mainstream English-speaking media outlets in English-speaking countries - start systematically using Türkiye instead of Turkey when discussing the country outside the context of the rename, then that would suggest that we might be nearing the point where a move should be taken seriously."
So you should address your objections (absurdity, sensibility and "pig-head" remarks) to "media outlets in English-speaking countries" first. Chrz (talk) 09:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Reference works are supposed to correct errors, rather than recycle them. And there is a general pattern of using word-accents and other diacritical marks, even though few news services bother. --GwydionM (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
One thing is to add alternative name to the article. And completely different thing is to name the article. Turkey is not an error, it is still one of names for the country, older name but still more common. Chrz (talk) 11:15, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/07/04/could-turkiyes-first-carbon-neutral-hotel-chain-help-kick-start-its-sustainable-tourism-re 95.70.245.88 (talk) 20:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/2022/07/09/canada-to-use-traditional-spelling-of-turkiye-following-un-move/ 31.223.49.110 (talk) 10:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/canada-traditional-spelling-t-rkiye-081902380.html?src=rss 31.223.49.110 (talk) 10:04, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Canada.ca is the Government of Canada's digital presence. The goal of this site is to make it easier for Canadians to find and understand Government of Canada information and services.
https://www.international.gc.ca/country-pays/turkiye/index.aspx?lang=eng
https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/turkiye?_ga=2.241526018.1868201480.1657361899-577191161.1657361899 31.223.49.110 (talk) 10:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
GOV.UK is the website for the UK government. It’s the best place to find government services and information.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-of-turkiye-21-june-2022
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cop26-president-to-visit-turkiye-to-progress-delivery-of-the-glasgow-climate-pact 31.223.49.110 (talk) 10:30, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Delete any new Türkiye name discussions

Latest comment: 2 years ago12 comments10 people in discussion
Lest this turn into a greater irony. CMD (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose to delete any new "Türkiye" name-change-related discussions that appear and do this for at least for the next month or so. They have become disruptive and people are continuously sparking discussions about it. The consensus of not changing the name has been the same every single time and discussions are purely repetitive and redundant at this point. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

You strongly object to a small discussion of an important issue? Is that the spirit that makes for a good reference work?--GwydionM (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
It is called moratorium and it is pretty common after unsuccessful move requests. The topic was discussed, evaluated, give it a rest until new arguments and evidence occur. Chrz (talk) 15:42, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
We have had "small discussions", and the outcome of those was that the current name is accurate to English-speaking media and sources. You can find those conversations above. --Spekkios (talk) 02:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Filling the talk page with dozens of "Move the page/No" paragraphs is not a good use of anybody's time. doktorb wordsdeeds 05:02, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
It's fairly standard procedure to remove repetitive requests on talk pages when it is getting overbearing, especially as many of them will have ignored the edit notice. However at the moment I m not sure it rises to the level of disruption yet. Black Kite (talk) 09:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
A lot of repetitive requests were already deleted. But it gradually cools down. Chrz (talk) 09:29, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Support I suggest to request starting an AC/DS here to technically stop em. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
The boyfriend of TOWIE star Yazmin Oukhellou, 33, is said to have been driving near Bohrum in Türkiye, when he 'lost control' of a vehicle the couple were in and was sadly unable to be saved by emergency services.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/hollyoaks-chelsee-healey-completely-shaken-27396841 31.223.49.110 (talk) 11:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
If you have a useful contribution to this discussion, that has not already been made several times, please make it. This talk page is not a repository of random links. Kahastok talk 11:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
https://data.worldbank.org/country/turkiye
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/06/13/climate-action-could-provide-nearly-150-billion-in-savings-for-turkiye-by-2040-says-pioneering-world-bank-study
https://www.worldbank.org/en/about/leadership/members 31.223.49.110 (talk) 11:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change please Turkey to Turkiye,even our country means on international platforms Türkiye

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Change please Turkey to Turkiye,even our country means on international platforms Türkiye 5.176.63.139 (talk) 15:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

See the discussions above. We don't go by what's official or what's in use on specific platforms, we go by what's most commonly used. Largoplazo (talk) 15:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
I guess some IP users are able to use 2017 Wikitext editor, and hence they can simply ignore the editnotice for this talk page? In such cases, I would love to propose an AbuseFilter to technically hold up such requests. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

The topic name won't change to Türkiye anytime soon

Latest comment: 2 years ago9 comments6 people in discussion
As per recent discussions, and WP:FORUM, I am being bold and bringing this to a close. We're going around in circles. doktorb wordsdeeds 21:13, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The name of the topic will stay Turkey, since the name is still used by most of the foreigners and also us Turks, and it seems that it won't change anytime soon. Even for example Kyiv, which uses its English name this way since 1995, was changed from Kiev in Wikipedia in 2020. Some people still refer to the city Kiev, even though it's not the correct English usage. There is also Ivory Coast, which its formal name is Côte d'Ivoire, is still written by its English name here. So don't expect this name change anytime soon. But I personally would like to see more information about the name change in "Name of Turkey" page, it seems that this change was made so instantly and without asking anyone, and also many governmental and international organisations (Such as UN, NATO, UEFA etc.) accepted this name change so fastly. 85.104.192.243 (talk) 09:41, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

As a general rule, Wikipedia uses the WP:COMMONNAME, not the official name. As long as "Turkey" is the most common name in English that shall be this article's title. Just because the official name changed, it doesn't mean Wikipedia changes. The official name of South Korea is Republic of Korea and North Korea is Democratic People's Republic of Korea but those aren't the titles used. Masterhatch (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
The discussion on Wikipedia is ridiculous - of course if you consider all news media, whatever, in history, there are more uses for "Turkey". Nobody called it "Türkiye" until recently and so there isn't going to be anyone from, say, two years ago calling it "Türkiye". In the last week, there are 23 pages of Google News searches for "Türkiye" -"Turkey" and 20 for -"Türkiye" "Turkey". (And obviously some of the latter are about the bird, not the country.) The number of people using the correct name will continue to grow and the number using the former name will continue to be reduced. --B (talk) 16:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
That's why we have WP:CRYSTAL, WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:COMMONNAME. I don't think I've ever seen an admin make such a determinedly policy-free, IP drive-by type comment before. DeCausa (talk) 17:41, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Yes, it will. Or it might (per WP:CRYSTAL) not. There are many previous examples where a name was changed quite quickly (i.e. within months) but there are equally examples where it took years, or hasn't even been changed at all. Bit of a strange comment from an admin, woh I'd expect to know that WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. Black Kite (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Among the news articles published subsequent to the name change, "Türkiye" is the more common name. For the whole of articles/books/whatever published sometime between the beginning of the world and today, of course "Turkey" is the more common name. But if you only consider things published since the name change, "Türkiye" is more common. --B (talk) 18:23, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
I would be happy to see the evidence for that statement which conforms to WP:COMMONNAME and bearing in mind that ngram is not able to provide any useful data given the recent nature of the "change". You seem to have a preconceived certainty of what is the "correct" name in the English language which overrides WP:COMMONNAME and whatever the future (which none of us can know) will determine. I don't see any change in the English-language WP:RS such as The New York Times, The Guardian, BBC, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times etc etc etc ad infinitum, or is it your view that they can't compare as WP:RS with the likes of TRT and the Turkish government outlets. I'm happy to see an admin taking NPOV so much to heart. DeCausa (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
If you look at who is using "Turkiye" on Google News, apart from a few Governments and Turkish/Azeri etc. services there are currently very few indeed (especialy if you remove the stories that are "Turkey changes its name to "Turkiye"). It might well be that Turkiye becomes more used - but it isn't anywhere near yet. Black Kite (talk) 18:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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