Talk:Tregrug Castle

Images

There are a few images at geograph.org e.g. here, which might be uploaded to Commons. There are also a few at flickr.com, copyright permitting. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Sources

• The Age of the Marcher Lords, c.1070-1536, Ch.4, Masonry Castles and Castle-Building, John R. Kenyon, pp=104-105, The Gwent County History, V.2 (2008?)
• Glamorgan and Gwent, A Guide to Ancient and Historic Wales, Elisabeth Whittle, pp=190-193 (1992)
• Castles of Gwent, Glamorgan & Gower, Mike Salter, p=30 (2002)
• Medieval Castles of Wales, John R. Keynon, p=?? (2010)
• A History of Gwent, Raymond Howell, p=88 (1988)

The first three have detailed descriptions. I'm sure the fourth does as well, but can't locate my copy just now. The fifth is a passing mention. Can mail over copies of the relevant sections if people don't have easy access. KJP1 (talk) 08:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks. Have added some years above(?) GoogleBooks has only snippet views of Whittle (1992) and Kenyon (2010 - but can see nothing for Tregrug), No other online previews available. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Just found this.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

So called a "masonry castle" there. Very surprised by the claim that it was "one of the biggest castles ever built in Britain". It doesn't seem to be located in a very strategically important place? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The "biggest castle" thing seems to be a bit of promotional Time Team hype. The "Comments" below are interesting - "It may be possible that a borough was planned, however this space could have formed a useful protected temporary encampment for troops employed by the Clares - particular as a muster point for English mercenary troop going onto the large Clare estates in Ireland." Though "it may be possible" would definitely need our old friend . Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Very happy to add in bits from the sources I have, and the Kenyon (2010) when I can find him. But one of you may need to tidy up my references, as you have followed that old dinosaur, Tim riley in using some archaic system rather than the super-duper {{sfn}}. KJP1 (talk) 14:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I wish to point out that my referencing style is in fact late Bronze Age, some 64,998,500 years after the extinction of the dinosaurs, and thus comparatively modern. Does this castle have an oubliette into which Wikipedians with insufficient deference to their seniors can be thrown? Tim riley talk 16:26, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the dinosaur refs were inherited, alas. You can't have everything. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Although, given that there’s only one existing book reference, if you let me convert that to sfn, we’d then be good to go! By the by, the Time Team, aside from being YouTube, doesn’t work for me. I get a copyright message. KJP1 (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Same here. It says "This video contains content from LDS, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".... LDS!? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

There's another one here, which I assume is equally copyvio, but is at least accessible. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Another source (p.131). Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I see that one also has Cas Troggy. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Less reliable? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I see Google maps (without the tree cover in satellite view) shows a large lake or pond, in the stream below the site, which was probably related. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC) p.s. with the satellite image on, the long lines of Scots Pines, planted all the way to the river, are still very clearly visible - tempted to move the pines into the main body.

I see that Newman (2000) mentions "Cathcart King and Perks (1956)", so that might be worth a look. Here's an interesting article by Prestwich (1982), but requires institutional access. Also here's a 2004 survey by N. Phillips Survey 26, pages 101-104, where it's called the "Bowling Green"! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Bowling Green also mentioned by coflein. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'd suggest that the Welsh pronunciation is closer to UK: /ˌtrɛˈɡrɪɡ/. Not sure why Tregruk is given as the English phonetic form. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Apparently "Tregruk" was the form used by Time Team, as "used in the CPMI of 1307".. (Anyone know what that is or was??) Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, Edward II of England came to throne in 1307, so maybe it's something to do with him. Some kind of manorial index? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I see that the date appears a few times in this source, which is the official 2009 "Archaeological Evaluation and Assessment of Results" by Wessex Archaeology. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Update

Have attempted to add some cites drawn from a range of sources. Have also edited the text. A few issues:

• I have swapped the YouTube video for the Wessex Archaeology report. This may not find favour! However, the link didn’t work for me - blocked on copyright grounds - and although an alternative exists, YouTube is not favoured as a source.
• The YouTube link contained a range of citations to matters that I could not locate in the Wessex report. I’ve removed most of them.
• The long footnote on “Pleasance” is of some concern. First, it’s uncited. Second, it may contain some original research, e.g. ‘it could serve as what one could call “landscape propaganda”’. If it’s to stay, I do think it needs a source. Alternatively, could we replace “pleasance” with “sumptuous hunting lodge”, a term used by a couple of the sources? As an aside, I couldn’t see the term “pleasance” in the Wessex report. Is is a term Tony Robinson uses in the actual programme?

Hope the edits meet with general approval, but appreciate they may not. In which case, we can of course discuss here and revise as per consensus. KJP1 (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Great work KJP. Yes, the Channel 4 henchmen (or henchpeople anyway) have obviously been out to protect their copyright, as the YT video no longer works for me either. Wish I'd watched it all now! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Oddly, your second link worked for me. Ignoring the multiple misspellings of “Tregrug” in the subtitles, it does explain where “pleasance” comes from. It’s discussed at 43:00. Personally, I would prefer to use something like “hunting lodge”, which the published sources such as Kenyon use, but we can see what others think. KJP1 (talk) 13:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

As a YT-addict, I'd obviously prefer to just present the royal two fingers to Ms Mahon, switch to that one and put it in External links. But I'll have you know that editors have got blocked indefinitely for adding possibly copyvio videos. So I can't risk that! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

And yes, the avenue of Scots Pine down to the Usk is very visible on Google Earth, as it was when I used to walk along the river there. Absolutely fine if you want to shift it out of the footnote into the main body. What we should probably really have is two/three sections: History, Description and a Time Team part. KJP1 (talk) 13:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• If there's someone in that episode introduced by name as an expert/authority in their field you can still cite their points using {{Cite AV media}} (including their name and the timestamp where they say it) but without any URL that possibly infringes copyright. It can still be verified by anyone who purchases the episode. Obviously this is no good if only Tony Robinson says something as he's not an expert. Jr8825 • Talk 13:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

  Many thanks. Excellent idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC) p.s. yes, but he likes to think he is.

No, he’s just the “celebrity” talking head that they feel obliged to use to front it! Lord knows why. But actually, it’s not Lord Robinson who discusses the term, it is one of the many white-bearded archaeologists, so he could probably be used. KJP1 (talk) 13:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure Tony had a very cunning plan about it. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I’ve had to substantially trim the footnote on “pleasance”, which was a pity as it had useful info. But it was uncited and, I suspect, may have been original research. KJP1 (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Better than it getting out of hand, like Welcome to the Pleasancedome, etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:58, 30 August 2021 (UTC)