Talk:Toronto slang

Copy to wiktionary

I suggest someone build wiktionary:Appendix: Greater Toronto English, wiktionary:Appendix: Multicultural Toronto English on Wiktionary from this list; similar to other such appendices like wiktionary:Appendix:Australian English vocabulary -- 64.229.90.199 (talk) 04:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

"Montreal"

Montreal English exists, and is quite distinct from this MTE, quite a lot of Frenglish and more Yiddish. -- 64.229.90.199 (talk) 20:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

"Calgary"

Calgary's local slang has different ethnic mix origins into its admixture -- 64.229.90.199 (talk) 20:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

..

Yo fam just pulled up to the crib 70.55.218.153 (talk) 03:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Rename

Can someone rename this page to "Multilingual Toronto English" its probably more specific and fitting Itsdsni (talk) 06:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

bumping this. this would be more fitting as slang implies it is just "words" when there is a specific accent with unique phonology as well that is worth being disussed. Itsdsni (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

No evidence on the page of any "accent" or "phonology". Find credible sources to bolster this before making any such change. Wolfdog (talk) 15:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Derek Denis, UofT linguistics prof, has done lots of work in regard to analyzing the phonology of the accent. He is also cited several times throughout the page. Itsdsni (talk) 20:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I am, unfortunatley, not a phonology expert and in no way in a position to write a detailed phonological analysis (evident by my previous attempt)

I will leave the sources here if anyone would like it interpret and develop a more comprehensive phonology section:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pocholo-Umbal/publication/346789689_Why_are_wasteyutes_a_ting/links/6081dcd5881fa114b41f8ff4/Why-are-wasteyutes-a-ting.pdf

https://gadanidis.ca/pdf/buftor.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01434632.2021.1895181

https://www.utm.utoronto.ca/main-news/utm-linguistics-professor-uncovering-torontos-unique-style-english

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00754242221145164 Itsdsni (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Just saw your recent edit. From the perspective of citations, I understand your point. However, the lack of academic sources does not mean this accent does not exist, rather, that no one has done a sufficient job at creating a scholarly analysis given the small and somewhat obscure niche.

The existance of an accent is well documented, albeit not in an academic manner, and is not a "recent" or "emerging" development. In fact, I would argue that the MTE is referenced more frequently as the "Toronto Accent" than it is "Toronto Slang" in most contexts.

Again, I am not a phonologist, so I am not in a position to create a detailed scholarly analysis of this "accent" myself, however, I don't think it's existance should be removed from this article entirely as it is still very relevant to the context and content of the page.

Some relevant examples so you can reference (non-academic but still relevant):

Bell Media helped produce a multi-part series with 4YE Comedy (Tyco) with the premise entirely based around the "early 2000s" Toronto accent (as stated by the producers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2072YX7Dxk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HrrM5bpV8

CBC Comedy produced a 2-part series making a comedic caricature out of this accent in a similar fashion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD1hzn12VJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I428EiKvyLw

The earliest avalible spoken example I was able to find (Jan 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fi-rofkEv0

An article from 2015 directly referencing the accent itself:

https://www.complex.com/music/a/josoliveshere/drake-new-accent

2000s Toronto Hip-Hop BTS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOsP4SYwtiU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUJ15d3CAqE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObqYgnpU8Ac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5LDJgav5M&t

Obviously these are not academic or scholarly sources, and I'm not even arguing they should be cited, I'm simply saying the existance of the accent should, at the very least, be acknowledged as its relevant to how this specific dialiect is actually spoken/used conversationally. Itsdsni (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I hope I've now addressed your concerns. Wolfdog (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

My concerns were more so regarding the removing mention of the "accent" from the page, especially the summary, given its significance and relevance to the context of the topic/article. Itsdsni (talk) 18:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

1. I think I have to be a bit firm here: this article was and continues to be almost entirely about lexical features: that's slang, not accent. I think I have been quite fair to include the term "Multicultural Toronto English" on the page, referring to a broader multiethnolect of its own (including accent), but whose features are, however, only slowly, gradually being uncovered. I do appreciate your producing of many fun YouTube video which do support your belief (and Denis's) that a full dialect exists. Unfortunately, what Wikipedia requires is reliable sources. The article (and scholarship out there broadly) certainly still supports the lexical dimension of this dialect over any other dimension and, as of 2023 research, lexicon is (and rightfully is) the primary (really the only) topic this article covers.
2. Please specify which exact source (and page number if possible) confirms that the dialect developed in the late 90s. Wolfdog (talk) 00:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Everything was cited as you requested. Is there a reason why you are deleting at random? Itsdsni (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

First, please answer my question #2 above. Second, this is not a page about all of Multicultural Toronto English -- its only scope at the moment is Toronto slang, so why would we also call the page Toronto accent? If you add informational specifics about the accent, then it will be about accent and can be given a bolded name as such. Wolfdog (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I responded to your second question directly here (read edit note, source was provided as you requested)

Special:MobileDiff/1184882472

I’ve never said the page should be renamed to that at any point, my only argument is that the accent is relevant to the discussion and should be at the very least mentioned. Not only because are they used in unison but because people frequently use “toronto accent” synonymously with “toronto slang” given how interwoven the two are. A simple twitter search for “toronto accent” will show you how much the two are connected and why it’s relevant to the conversation.

I disagree with the notion that this is just vocabulary and not a dialect. Society has clearly come to that consensus, and research/articles have noted it as well (I provided additional sources as you can see in my edit history several days prior). However, whether or not this dictates renaming the page to something more accurate is not when what i’m trying to argue.

All i’m saying is, at the bare minimum, the accent should be acknowledged given its relevance, as well as the supporting evidence i’ve cited over the last few days. I thought a small sentence would do no harm, but clearly you disagree, so I’d like to hear your thoughts as to why you believe it should not be discussed. Itsdsni (talk) 17:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

A. So, the citation you've provided is the Wilkinson source, correct? I appreciate that. This is a 150-page thesis, however, so could you please provide which page or section confirms that the dialect developed in the late 90s? I'm literally interested in going in to the source to verify that information.

B. No one is at this point arguing that this is just vocabulary and not a dialect. (In fact, I am fairly persuaded, in which case perhaps it indeed should be renamed.) What I'm saying is the scope of the article, as it currently stands, is just vocabulary. Therefore, there's no reason to mention the accent (and especially bold the phrase "Toronto accent") unless it will be discussed in the body of the article, which again it currently isn't.

C. In line with the comment I left below (November 17), I'm realizing there may be a better direction for our disagreements here. Why don't we simply 1) push for this to be renamed Multicultural Toronto English, 2) add more content about phonology which helps justify the name change, and 3) THEN (and only then) openly mention all three possible names (MLE, Toronto slang, and Toronto accent) in the lead? In such case, presumably I will be the one to add more about phonology since you admit you are not a phonology expert and would appreciate or at least support that expansion of the article. Is this proposal something that works for the both of us? Wolfdog (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Did you want me to add more specifics about accent? Is that what you've been requesting this whole time? Wolfdog (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

A. The Wilkinson source was for the existance of the "Toronto accent" specifically. My explanation for the late 90s development is in the first "history" paragraph as I mentioned: "Towards the end of the 90s, native Toronto rapper Kardinal Offishall released his Billboard-charting single BaKardi Slang showcasing a variety of the cities slang throughout the lyrics and signaling the dialiect was already significantly developed by this time." This is restated in the Wikipeida article for the song itself as well.

B. Alright, I understand your point.

C. This is fair, I have no issue with further context and information being added to the article to make it more encompassing. Itsdsni (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, well, I think it is wiser to give the years of formal linguistic documentation than the presumed date of the dialect's birth. If we don't have a linguistic source for example saying the 90s explicitly, we should avoid that assumption. As for the phonology info, I'll add some soon. Thanks for the discussion. Wolfdog (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Grammar section?

We need a grammar section with some examples, as there is a bit of a distinct type of grammar that Toronto mans speak that involves the influence of Jamaican patois and other dialects that are distinct from standard English. Ninjamaster1099 (talk) 20:20, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 21 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 14:38, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

---

Toronto slang → Multicultural Toronto English – Per talk page discussion "Rename". See various sources there. Derek Denis, the linguist spearheading research on this dialect mostly in the 2020s, and his team have settled on this name; see here. Wolfdog (talk) 13:05, 21 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 21:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Wikipedia goes by WP:COMMONNAME. Multicultural Toronto English does not pop up in WP:RS outside of scholarly papers. This article calls it "Toronto Slang", confirming that it is the commonly used name. This does too, only referring to "Multicultural Toronto English" in the description. While there could be a discussion about whether "Toronto Slang" is a proper name, this move would not conform to policy per WP:NEO. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:01, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The TLDR conclusion of my discussion with Itsdsni above is that we are trying to broaden the scope of this article to include not just "Toronto slang" (lexicon) but also "Toronto accent" (phonology)... which Itsdsni, by the way, gives evidence is also a common name. Therefore, since there are actually a) two common names, and b) we are trying to use an umbrella name for both multicultural Toronto slang AND accent, we settled on "Multicultural Toronto English", the label used by reliable sources namely in the relevant field of linguistics (and not just popular news outlets). Thus, it may somewhat fail WP:COMMONNAME, but achieve WP:PRECISION. Wolfdog (talk) 16:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

If Toronto slang itself is independently notable, there is no need to move this article - just make a different one about the accent. They are not exactly the same thing. For example, there is a separate article on New York accent and New York City English - this could follow the same model. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Given the dialect in reference is more comparable to Multicultural London English than it is to New York's, I feel as if following the format of Multicultural London English would make more sense. I agree with you, slang is generally independent from an accent. However, in this specific context, the slang and dialect are so interwoven and used synonymously in reference to one another that creating a 2nd page would be both unneccesary and confusing. Given the close connection, the accent and slang share the same history, origin, etc; there would be 2 pages where almost everything is the same apart from their names. Itsdsni (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to a move to Toronto English to encompass both of those things. However, the "Multicultural" part doesn't seem to be borne out as a common name, so per WP:CONCISE it should likely be left out for now. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand your concerns. My only worry with that is that this would be misrepresentative or confusing - it’s not the entirety of Toronto that speaks with this dialect, just the younger, immigrant, working class population. A name like “Toronto English” may imply that this is the most prevalent or common dialect in this region, which isn’t necessarily the case. Itsdsni (talk) 15:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm with Itsdsni on this one. It would be like renaming "Multicultural London English" to "London English", or "New York Latino English" to "New York English". Highly misleading. Wolfdog (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Per the there is a separate article argument above, this is a rarity. The fact that New York accent was intentionally split off from New York City English is because the original page was getting too unwieldy (WP:AS). This is likely because there is PLENTY to say about the New York metropolitan dialect, which has been scientifically documented for over a century-- the exact opposite of this Toronto one, of which there is only just budding research nowadays, in the 2020s. Very different situations. Wolfdog (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, given what you say, I still don't think this merits a move. Instead, the new article about Multicultural Toronto English should be created, and this merged into it. It's a separate valid subtopic and the move would change its scope. Therefore, still oppose. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

That course of action makes no sense. Wolfdog (talk) 04:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Multicultural Toronto English has no basis in academic writing, nor is it part of the vocabulary in everyday use. EastCoastHistory (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

  Yes it does! Have you read what we said above at all? It is currently being studied by (and is named) this by the academic linguist Derek Denis and his team in Toronto! Wolfdog (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Support The article as it stands discusses and cites multiple non-lexical features, making the subject of the article the dialect, not simply the slang. The information on Wikipedia is drawn from reliable sources, and when referring to the dialect (that is both the socio-regionally-specific accent and lexicon), reliable sources are using the name Toronto Multicultural English. I am not convinced the accent/lexicon warrant separate pages at this time. In addition, the Phonology section mentions ways in which this dialect differs from standard Canadian English pronunciation(s) used in Toronto, thus "Toronto English" would be an insufficiently specific title for this article. The move seems obvious, to me, now that the scope of the article has expanded to include phonology and syntax. Wow Mollu (talk) 20:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ and WP:COMMONNAME. This is an independent notable topic commonly called by the present title, and should not be conflated with something else. Frankly the Multicultural Toronto English concept looks rather niche to me, like it's something being pursued just by a small group not mainstream.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support as long as the article is about the multiethnolect, but consider splitting the vocabulary into the present title. Nardog (talk) 12:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Support - I've already expressed my opinion in the discourse above, but realized I haven't formally left my stance in here. Rename is ideal in achieving WP:PRECISION. Itsdsni (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. 120.28.224.32 (talk) 03:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.