Talk:Tiamat (band)

Reverts

There seems to be a "war of reverts" going on in this article (which is quite odd, considering the limited mainstream popularity of the subject.)

Here's one version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tiamat_%28band%29&oldid=18545126

Here's another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tiamat_%28band%29&oldid=18655371

The first version had nothing significant that would require a revert (bias, vandalism, need for spelling/grammar cleanup) whereas, the second version is needlessly long-winded and scattered with obvious typos and incorrect internal links.

This has been going on for a matter of days and demands some attention/discussion. Danteferno 02:14, July 15, 2005 (GMT)

Here's an idea... why don't you contact me instead of stating that a revert war has been started? Revert wars do not constitute of two reverts, in case you have never watched an actual one unfold. This is a collaborative project. I am helping you. Or do you truly believe that an article which contains a sentence with "almost celestial synths" conforms to a neutral point of view? Do you actually understand that "preceed" means come before? I had made quick fixes to the article earlier, but now I have updated it to a proofed version. If you think there is something wrong with it, discuss it. Better yet, just change it, but state a good reason for doing so, intead of stating that something was "a redux which wasn't necessary". It was necessary. It still is, since the article is still lousy. It needs expansion, not quibbles over some non-material which barely qualifies as an article. If you want to claim ownership for it, do it when you make it a kickass article. Feel free to do whatever changes you want to it, just make sure you are actually following the rules and standards of the Wikipedia. Also, stop using HTML code on articles. It is useless and needless. --Sn0wflake 07:50, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

1. "almost celestial synths" has no NPOV problem. "Very beautiful synths" would. "Constant use of synthesizers" is very misleading, and anyone who heard their music would agree. Other quips:

" Tiamat is a symphonic and gothic metal band originally assembled in Stockholm, Sweden in 1988. "

Considering symphonic metal and gothic metal are two styles used together by many bands, there is no reason why there should be an "and". So symphonic/goth metal fits more.

"Edlund modified the band's sound substantiyally,"

Last time I checked, "substantiyally" is not a word.

"The album Wildhoney from 1994 is considered their transition album, combining death grunts."

The first draft of my article consisted of "harsh vocals" vs. "death grunts".Wildhoney had no death metal vocals. The closest Edlund got to extreme vocals was on "The Ar" and "Visionaire" and it was more of a deep yell, not "death grunts". Sumerian Cry was really the first and last death metal Tiamat album.

You are wrong. Sumerian Cry is our last black metal album not "death metal"-album!!! Johan Edlund (UTC) 16:32

That said, I still fail to see (save for occassional HTML use) why a significant revert was neccessary. There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia that are a mess in terms of NOPV, spelling, and formatting (and I would imagine even one or two of those would at least have correct spelling for the word "substantially".) Danteferno 10:14, July 15, 2005 (GMT)

You made a valid point regarding the vocals on Wildhoney, so I stand corrected regarding that. Otherwise, you should realise that you are writing for an encyclopedia, not for a fan site. All I did was make the tone of the article more fitting for the Wikipedia, and yet you insist on reverting it, instead of working upon my version in order to build something better. If you fail to see how "almost celestial synths" is biased, there is probably nothing I can do to help you. If you want this bad for your prose to be the only on the article, I will not insist on wasting my time fixing it. Have fun reverting the article instead of doing research and improving it. --Sn0wflake 01:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

A bit of sad news for you: Most Wikipedia sites for bands are written more as a "fansite" than a non-biased informative. (The Tool page being the worst example,going so far as to mention books the band recommends). Why you have chosen this out of all is beyond me. And I can't see how describing Tiamat's synths as "celestial" is biased. The Gene Hoglan article describes his percussion skills as "technical" and "complex" - how is that any different? You have good intentions (and if you know about Tiamat, good choice in music) but like I said, such efforts are better applied when appropriate and truly warranted. Best of luck with future edits of other users' articles, --Danteferno 2:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I haven't "chosen" this article. I have been working on articles about bands for over a year to fix this sort of situation you describe. Why you take the worst articles as a rule instead of the best ones is beyond my compreehension. --Sn0wflake 07:47, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Tiamat - Gothic Metal or not?

3 reputable websites confirm it:

[1] [2] [3]

Contrawise, a search on "Tiamat gothic doom" came up with no relevant results that would reflect the "gothic doom" tag had even been debated or discussed as their genre in the first place. (There is also still no website that lists how it would even be a different genre than gothic metal.) The same could be said for the Type O Negative and Moonspell pages, whose genres were changed to "gothic doom".--Danteferno 12:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

No cause we are definotely not gothic!!! We play the Dark Symphonic Black Metal!!!

Johan Edlund (UTC) 16:24

Genre

Why the hell Tiamat is called "symphonic metal" or even "symphonic black metal"? Not a single its song has anything to do with "sympho", not to mention "black"!!! "Sumerian Cry" is death metal, "Astral Sleep" is doom or maybe death doom (and a wonderful one!), the same may be said about "Clouds". "Wildhoney" is doom, maybe athmospheric doom, but still - keyboards per se do not make the band "sympho"! "A Deeper Kind of Slumber" is doom also, but closer to psychedelic rock, all songs being about drugs. Other albums are gothic metal or gothic doom. Actually, I've never seen Tiamat defined as symphonic metal before. Finally, who called Tiamat "symphonic black metal"? Any reasons???

Johan Edlund: Ha..cause we are symphonic at all. However we used to be playing pure dark Symphonic black metal and anything to do with those any of your mentioned genres such as death, doom, gothic definotely not!!!! And contrary your post states "Sumerian Cry" is our last black metal record and in "The Astrall Sleep" we start to use "symphonic" arrangements with black. And "keyboards per se do not make a band sympho!" Ha are you really never heard of string sections or any sympho sections playing from synths in generally or even never know what a hell keybords is what!!! We are allways played sympho black and it start right here from "The Astrall Sleep"!! This is the reason. I and we in generally call our music "dark symphonic black metal" with inflences of Pink Flyod, King Crimson, Candlemass, Mercyfull Fate, Fields of the Nephilim and Systers of Mercy. Prog, heavy, doom and gothic influences.

Johan Edlund (UTC) 16:13

Cf: Tiamat at Encyclopaedia Metallum - no "sympho black"!

Blacklake June 19, 2006

Metal Archives can’t be trusted (e. g.: user generated content and false information), see de:Diskussion:Corrupted#Bearbeitungen. --217/83 20:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Not sympho!

Please could some person remove the "black metal" and "symphonic metal" tags from here? I've never heard of anything orchestral of Tiamat and Tiamat's early works is definitely not "black metal" for that matter. Actually Tiamat was death metal-group in demos, Sumerian Cry and Astral Sleep (wich is very significant development in the melodic death metal-genre) and this newer style is just strainghtforward Goth rock with metallic touch. Between these stuffs Tiamat recorded also an "atmospheric doom" record Clouds and "prog/Goth"/death metal-classic Wildhoney. Listen to Sumerian Cry or some of Tiamat's newer songs if you still called Tiamat "black metal" or "symphonic metal". As i say im not only who don't see anything sympho or black in the stuff of Tiamat. Finally, why the hell "black metal" and "symponic metal" tags stay here?!

+1 about "black metal"!!! Where could it be in Tiamat music? Doom, Gothic, melodic Death (early), may be Dark Wave (late). Never heard "Black" from Tiamat. As I feel it mostly - Doom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.242.217.67 (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you, who claim Tiamat never played Black Metal, even listen to Treblinka and Sumerian Cry? --217/83 20:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

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not black

Black metal link should be removed!

I agree. Sumerian Cry-era Tiamat is definitely not black metal. And Treblinka was grindcore, not black metal band.

Treblinka

Contrary to what the above post states, Treblinka were black metal. Not grindcore. There was a Canadian band of the same name, who were a thrash group, maybe this will help with the confusion?

We started originally black metal band and after we became totally, simply Symphonic Black Metal band. All links of the genres such as death, doom, prog, gothic should be definitely removed!!!

Johan Edlund (UTC) 16:19

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Symphonic metal?

How come Tiamat is considered as Symphonic metal? They, well using synths middle on but those even does'nt make Symphonic sound to their music at all. And there's no source who state that Tiamat is Symphonic metal either. I furthermore believe that Symphonic metal tag is here because people often confuse Tiamat with Therion, which also was something close to death metal. By the way i removed Symphonic metal tag from all content of the page, because it's really not what they are playing nowadays. Thoughts? Etos 15:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

I removed the "After the dissolution of Treblinka, Johan Edlund joined some former members in a doom/death metal band called Expulsion (disbanded 1996)." part, but the change was reverted. Expulsion was around at the same time as Treblinka, and Edlund helped the band out with photographs for their second CD, as well as doing guest vocals on one verse from their first album. Edlund was never considered as a member of Expulsion. 82.99.7.26 (talk) 11:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

He was still part of the band and that deserves to be mentioned - it never states that he was a full time member. Now stop removing this. --Danteferno (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Genre

Ok as none of the genres in the infobox have sources maybe they shouldnt be there.Solino_{the Wolf} 09:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Sources or not, the genres are fine. No one has had a problem with them for about a year now, and they are accurately describe Tiamat's style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlecTrevelyan402 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I may note threshold inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.Take a look at WP:V.If the genres are to stay they should pass WP:V as its one of the three core content policies of wiki.So the fact that no one's had any problems with them doesnt help.The whole article has a sourcing problem as it's sources doesn't seem to be reliable.Solino_{the Wolf} 10:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

About previous members, why isn't Magnus Sahlgren listed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.198.203 (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

So if a band lacks sources about genre, it is therefore genreless? Cut this wikipedian bs policy. The genrebox is almost fine. Revan ltrl (talk) 21:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

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