Talk:The Red Paintings

General Upkeep of Article

This article seems to attract lots of anonymous, unverifiable and usually poorly spelt inclusions. Please think about what you're adding before you add it!

I have made numerous edits to remove non-encyclopeadic content that keeps popping in. Some I have removed and some I have changed so the language reflects that these statements aren't verifiable, i.e. seizure and colour synethesia. I have also recently reverted the opening paragraphs mention of 'sci-fi art rock' as the following citations points to that wording specifically. Also as the bands genre is classified as art rock, its repetitive to mention it for the third time.

Again the upcoming album is removed from the discography in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. Until it is released, please leave it out from the section.

Most of this article sounds made up and biased talks up the singer of this band like he's god like. when in fact they are a very unliked band, mainly in Brisbane. And there is lots of name droping Animal rights etc - Adam b — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.56.93 (talk)

Please sign your comments with ~~~~ per Wikipedia guidelines. If you can find a reliable source that supports your opinion expressed here, that also meets Wikipedia's citation standards, please use it to edit the article. Lentower (talk) 16:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Look at the page ratings it's under 2 alot of people.think this page is biased

These page ratings are not a reason to change a page's content. The ratings are an informal poll, as well as Original research which is not allowed on Wikipedia and violates Wikipedia policy. At most, they are a reason to do more research & find citations on both sides of the issue. Lentower (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please sign your comments with ~~~~ per Wikipedia guidelines. Lentower (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not delete another editor's comment on a talk page. Doing so is against Wikipedia guidelines. Lentower (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

i think the page should be deleted or restart, wiki admin do read it for you're self , it's full of biased and name droping. anyone could see that . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.56.93 (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Alleged Alien Abduction of Lead Singer Trash McSweeney

Lead singer Trash McSweeney claimed in the Australian newspaper 'mX' (08 December 2011) that he can recall being abducted by aliens between the ages of seven to fifteen. He could become a famous UFO oabductee/experiencer. Eligius (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Claim being the key word. Trashy just makes stuff up to be cool , outthere etc. Only his fanboy fans think he's not lieing about seeing coulours when he hears music. Pfft!Give me a break... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.56.93 (talk) 00:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

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Blatant self-promotion

The article reads like a PR kit. Locbo (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090531202853/http://www.theredpaintings.com:80/v2/ravejan05.htm to http://www.theredpaintings.com/v2/ravejan05.htm
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090805103250/http://www.soulshine.com.au:80/_article/2007/01/09/28-the-red-paintings.html to http://www.soulshine.com.au/_article/2007/01/09/28-the-red-paintings.html
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090806053942/http://www.xray-mag.com:80/en/content/whales-are-dying-red-paintings-and-sea-shepherd to http://www.xray-mag.com/en/content/whales-are-dying-red-paintings-and-sea-shepherd
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Page deletion.

I would like to request a deletion of this artist page. I am the article subject, I regard yourself as a non-notable, private person, and the artical/page to be deleted. Many of the items included have been fabricated. Thanks Trash McSweeney. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theredpaintings (talk • contribs) 21:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Possible disruptive editing

In March 2022, after the AfD of this article was settled as Keep, an unidentified user, 85.56.220.216 deleted content and related references, which supported that content. Significantly they deleted the band's early EPs, and McSweeney's non-performance name.

Both are detailed by AllMusic's history of Red Paintings (written by Jody McGregor), available at archived copy. McGregor writes, "Eccentric lead singer Jamie Barrett, who calls himself Trash McSweeney," and "They released three EPs independently -- Angel Flummox, Reality, and Cinema Love -- before McSweeney left Geelong and relocated to Brisbane." See current ref [4].

The above user has modified the AllMusic ref (removing its archive-url) to lead to a generic AllMusic page, which does not show the band's history.

Furthermore the user claims, in edit summaries, that content is not supported by sources after having removed or modified them!

I have reverted the most recent edits by that user and ask them to discuss these matters here to arrive at a consensus on the article's content.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Seems you are very bias to the artist in question and in attack mode yourself? Why does this page now look like the most successful UNKNOWN artists to come of Australia? Well done for spending countless hours on finding long lost, no body actual cares, material to prove your point. 85.56.220.216 (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any connection with the artist, their management or their fandom? Why do you want their history deleted? Please do not hurl accusations at editors who are trying to improve the article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:19, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

You are not "improving" as it was much more bias before you even started adding so much pointless and damaging content. Why are you so obsessed with the band and page? YOU must spent hours and hours on this? All you are doing is airing negative articles and tainting the bands future. I bet this band, now based on this page, will never be heard of again. 85.56.220.216 (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary editing from admins

Hello, Why do you feel the need to use the guys name over and over again? Looks like one or more of these admins is out to spite the act. Not even celebrity artists or actors have their so called birth names and stage names repeated every time they are mentioned. This page reads like it is under attack from bias admins, who feel the need to prove a point?. Hilarious, this band does not even exist anymore and never had any major success to even warrant such hours and hours of attention from people who seem to have nothing better to do with their time and adding what looks like any kind of article. You do realize the real war out there is with Russia right? Lads you are making it look like they are the biggest band to come out of AU, you do realize this is not Silverchair right? You're not writing about Daniel Johns! Hilarious. I call prejudice edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.56.220.216 (talk • contribs) 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Considerable removal of content without discussion

From 20 April 2022 to 4 May 2022. Mooonswimmer has made some 39 edits to this article (see Revision history). The majority of those edits have removed content regarding the history of the group.

Consider the two AfDs (1st and 2nd: both in March this year) and the discussions on this talkpage, above. Various editors tried to have the article deleted from WP, possible disruptive editing occurred during and just after those AfDs, now we have a huge amount of content removed starting about a month or so later.

I have problems with the current status of the article. Rather than wholesale reversion, I ask the above editor to provide their thoughts on:

1. When were the band formed?
2. What is the non-performance name of its founder (and long-term member)?
3. Who were the other early members, when they were in Geelong/Melbourne?
4. Why did the band leave major label, Modern Music/Sony BMG? (Aside: why is Sony/BMG no longer in infobox?)
5. There are now problems with references, which worked at the time of the AfDs. Not even an archive version seems to be available. Specifically:
   1. APRA AMCOS ref, which showed the non-performance name of the group's main songwriter.
   2. AllMusic bio (by Jody McGregor), which gave the band's early history including the frontman's non-performance name.

Additionally: the article for the band's album, The Revolution Is Never Coming, was PRODed by the above user and it was subsequently deleted. Why was it not sent to its own AfD in line with various articles on the band's EPs?

The above editor has added new content and new references but in some cases subsequently removed that content/ref, see "The Red Paintings"] by Paris Pompor in The Sydney Morning Herald from May 2006 (see diff). The editor added this ref but then deleted it. Does the founder's claim of alien abduction cast doubt in reader's minds about his subsequent backstory?

I ask the above editor, and any interested editors, to comment on these issues.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

• Comment by request - This band's article went through two very strange AfDs, with someone claiming to be Mr. McSweeney and then someone claiming to represent him, demanding that the article be deleted because McSweeney wanted to erase painful events from his past. While voting, I and a few other veterans investigated and found that the band attained a certain level of notability, but the article was full of unreliable sources, and their many albums had WP articles that were even more poorly sourced. A few album articles survived but the rest were redirected to the band's article. I don't know the reasoning behind the PROD for just one of them. I had been planning to clean up the band's article but Moonswimmer beat me to it. This editor is a WP veteran and I assume their intentions are good, and they simply decided to remove everything that did not have a reliable source. I think key historical events can be brought back with a "better source needed" tag here and there. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 01:41, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  Reply At the time of the AfDs did you check:

  1. the APRA AMCOS ref, which showed the founder's non-performance name? This has now been changed to show only his performance name, presumably at the behest of the artist. APRA AMCOS search does not get archived by Wayback Machine.
  2. the AllMusic biography, which provided the band's early history, including that non-performance name. I'm not sure why the archived version now leads to a generic search for the band and not the article by Jody Macgregor. shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  I stumbled upon the page itself, not its AfD. I wasn't really involved in the deletion discussion. Didn't assess the band's notability or the available press coverage and I was pretty sure the page was going to stick but needed a cleanup. I intended on removing any trivial details or controversial unsourced claims, adding citations, and expanding the article. What I found was a very poorly sourced article, with contradicting claims (minor stuff like dates and lineups, for the most) and a lot of unessential trivia.

  When I started cleaning up the article, I started with the sourcing. The APRA AMCOS would have been a great source, but it simply led me to the website's search function. Same goes for the AllMusic citation. Couldn't find anything archived. I subsequently removed them, because "non-existent" sources aren't really reliable, especially when you're using them to back up major claims or to establish notability. Was I supposed to keep these citations?

  The other citations removed were user-generated reviews (unreliable), broken links to the band's website (a defunct primary source), links to Amazon, Myspace, Setlist.. (in retrospect, perhaps I should've added their Myspace to the EL section).

  I still believe certain citations aren't ideal. Lots of contradicting information. I just haven't gotten around to assessing them yet.

  Citation [12] for example. It states that "The Red Paintings are an Orchestral art rock band based in Los Angeles, California, originally formed 1999 in Geelong, Victoria but have been based over the last few years in Brisbane, Australia." So when was the band formed? 1998, as this source and many other sources state, 1999 as others do, or some other year? According to this source, Feed the Wolves is a 2008 release. Was Feed the Wolf released in 2007, as is stated on the EP's CD booklet, or in 2008? Are we going to be a year or two off when it comes to every release? Since when have they been based in California? etc..

  Citation [13]. Is a review by "iain69" the most reliable source?

  "The Red Paintings are a band like no other I know". "I love music that makes me feel".

  And so on... Mooonswimmer 21:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for your reply. I agree that the article had considerable problems before the AfDs. The founder has provided revisionist histories of his hand over the years eschewing earlier versions in favour of repeated re-invention (see discussion about "fanciful ideas" below). According to AfD1 the person claiming to be the founder was working towards a new album and new direction for the band. They wanted the article removed so that they would be free to re-invent themselves, again. Much of the content you removed is what that person wanted removed.

  As for the APRA AMCOS ref it used to show that Jamie Glenn Barrett was the main songwriter for the group. This has now been changed, presumably at the behest of the songwriter or his management/lawyer, to Trash McSweeney. This occurred after AfD2. APRA AMCOS does not allow its search results to be archived so I cannot show you what it looked like back in February or March this year. Note that current ref [4] has leader as Jamie Barrett in 2004.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:39, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  AllMusic's Jody Macgregor wrote the band's history but the link now leads to a generic search for that group. I don't know why the Wayback Machine version is likewise affected.

  Feed the Wolf was released in the week commencing 11 June 2007 according to The ARIA Report (see archive copy).

  You haven't explained why The Revolution Is Never Coming was PRODed rather than AfDed or even redirected to this article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Refs/content removed

1. "The Red Paintings take on the Fuse Festival (Nov 03)..." Interview with Jamie Barrett of the Red Paintings. Compare this with later interview with Trash McSweeney (still in article at External links) "Interviews :: Making an impression with The Red Paintings.. (May '05)" both originally housed at Australian Music Online. Why was the former removed? It provides evidence that Barrett and McSweeney are the same person.
2. "The Red Paintings" by Paris Pompor. (now archived here). Aside from the claim of alien abduction mentioned above, Pompor discusses McSweeney's "seemingly unremitting tube of fanciful ideas." Some of these are exemplified by Pompor and provide further examples of McSweeney's views from 2006.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:30, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

   1. I'd have removed one or the other because they are interviews, and seem to be duplicate citations. Different links, but the interview is practically the same. I also don't think there's any essential information that could be included in the article. Just personal opinions on the Australian music industry.

   2. I don't remember removing that one, I don't see any reason why I would. I'm pretty sure I'm the one who added it as a source. Just checked, and it looks like I mistakenly cited another SMH article twice. I personally view the "fanciful ideas", alien abduction claims, religious beliefs, and fast-food chain conspiracies to be non-essential trivia. The synesthesia anecdote was one of the only things I found relevant (because of the link to the band's name). Mooonswimmer 22:09, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

   1 My point is that they are the same person being interviewed. The first interview is with Jamie Barrett, the second is with Trash McSweeney. By removing the former, you have prevented readers for noting the "duplicate citations" in these interviews indicates they are the same person.

   2 By ignoring those "fanciful ideas" illustrated by Pompor you provide a biased depiction of the founder's claims. Should not the typical reader of this article be given an opportunity to understand how the group's main member has developed his music? His ideas/claims influenced his material.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:48, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

   1. Perhaps. Was the interview conducted and published in May 2005 with Trash McSweeney or was it conducted and published in November 2003 with Jamie Barrett? The source indicates both, despite the content being the absolute same. It is also a strictly primary source with absolutely 0 commentary. Essentially, not one we should be using. It doesn't even really belong in the External Links section, to be fair.

   2. If you would like to add "McSweeney has named Adolf Hitler as a personal catalyst and has likened The Red Paintings to a bowl of Fruit Loops. The front man claims he was abducted by aliens from the age of six to 15. The Sydney Morning Herald's Paris Pompor notes that Brisbane's heat and isolation might explain his eccentric demeanour" feel free to do so. I don't believe it is essential or relevant information in any way, but perhaps you could sway my opinion. Mooonswimmer 21:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

   1 I believe both interviews should be in the External links section. Interviews are often placed in such a section, they don't contribute to the band's notability but provide interested readers with the founder's opinions. If the interviews are identical and are with the band's founder, doesn't that means they are the same person?

   2 Perhaps a more summary style e.g. In 2006 McSweeney indicated that Adolf Hitler was a "personal catalyst" and his band were a "bowl of Fruit Loops".[Pompor ref] He also alleged that he was abducted by aliens, when younger. The Sydney Morning Herald's Paris Pompor described McSweeney's claims as "fanciful ideas".[Pompor ref]shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:01, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I've returned this content. This provides the typical reader with evidence of the founder's "fanciful ideas" and their predilection for re-invention, and adds weight to Mooonswimmer's decision to "take anything this guy says or is purported to have said with a grain of salt." (see below).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

This content is also the only thing mentioned about McSweeney. That, and what seems to be his "dead name". After that paragraph, McSweeney isn't really mentioned again. The Hitler, Fruit Loops, and alien abduction mentions are irrelevant. The name of a notable band's front man is clearly of some relevance, but WP:BLPPRIVACY seems to apply here, don't you think?

Perhaps we need a few other contributors to weigh in. -- Mooonswimmer 11:22, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

In regards to shaidar cuebiyar comments on what he believe to be the founders name I would have to agree with Mooonswimmer onWP:BLPPRIVACY as well and I feel the articles you are referring do seem quite conflicting. I read one article where McSweeney makes it clear that it is not his actual name. I question why shaidar cuebiyar do you feel the need to add a line on "Adolf Hitler" when Adolf is not actually referenced in the article and it reads as if it was the writers personal opinions not a quote from the artist. 46.135.24.252 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

shaidar cuebiyar In regards to the "all music" I have looked through the entire music website which I add is a current publication. It seems there is no evidence of this article that at least I can find past or present. In regards to your question "Do I have proof?" Only proof I have is that it does not actually exist and from looks of it perhaps it never did?. You claim that Macgregor's article "covered this act" do you have proof of this? 46.135.24.252 (talk) 08:36, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

shaidar cuebiyar can you please point out in the article where it reads "Adolf Hilter" I do not see it. 46.135.24.252 (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you trying to claim that when the article mentions Hitler it is not referring to Adolf Hitler? Pompor does not always provide direct quotes but summarises his discussion with the lead singer. This is usual in newspaper reports about an artist. In the section starting with "We're discussing the grip childhood memories have..." where Pompor details various claims and "fanciful ideas" from the lead singer. The specific sentence is "It punctuates his colourful chatter alongside naming Hitler as a personal catalyst or comparing the band to a bowl of Fruit Loops." Thus saying, "Adolf Hitler is a 'personal catalyst'" is a reasonable summary of one of the artist's beliefs.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I've dropped the "Adolf" but returned the rest.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Non-performance name of frontman

Any solid, reliable sources for Trash McSweeney's non-performance name? This shouldn't be a controversial piece of information, and a band member's non-performance name is typically an essential piece of information, but in this case it seems to be contentious (and poorly sourced), so WP:BLPREMOVE might apply. WP:BLPPRIVACY as well.

I found a relevant interview but the website seems to be blacklisted. I would also take anything this guy says or is purported to have said with a grain of salt. Mooonswimmer 14:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

As described above, there were two sources for the non-performance name at the time of both AfDs in March this year. McSweeney's various claims are detailed in articles by Pompor and Jensen. In the latter he claims, "His name is not a pseudonym but the result of his Hungarian heritage" in 2007. The performer's name change appears to have occurred in about 2003 or 2004. Not long after moving to Brisbane. The two sources, which were deleted by you were:

1. APRA AMCOS' Song Catalogue search. It no longer provides the earlier performance name as the entry had been changed after the AfD, presumably at the behest of the performer or his management, to the same as the performer's name. However at BMI's Songview Search (see here) we still see the name. It cannot be archived via Wayback Machine. I expect this will soon be changed by said management to the performance name as per APRA AMCOS.

As predicted the BMI search has all works by the Red Paintings now credited to Trash McSweeney.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

1. AllMusic's history of the Red Paintings, as written by Jody Macgregor, is no longer accessible. Even its archive-url leads to a generic search for the band's name. The original content appears to be deleted. However see this archive copy of Apple Music's history of the group. It is the same as the start of Macgregor's article from AllMusic, which was not acknowledged. More recent content at that website has no history of the band.

Read the AfDs. You'll see that McSweeney wants to reinvent himself, again. He no longer acknowledges his earlier non-performance name.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:07, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Where is this "ALLMUSIC" article? It looks like this website never actually covered this act. Shaidar cuebiyar, a hard argument to claim articles that are not accessible or found on the web. The act has no music or video online content, no website and it looks like they have not been active in around 10 years?. Mooonswimmer has a point on the so called "name change" and a band member's non-performance name as materials you add seem quite conflicting. 46.135.24.252 (talk) 12:15, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• As indicated above Jody Macgregor's article on the Red Paintings was previously available at AllMusic's website. It had been used during the two AfDs, in March 2022, to help establish the band's notability. After those AfDs the founder and/or his management cleared web content to remove mention of their early history. Consequently Macgregor's article is no longer available on the web and I have been unable to find any archive copy.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  shaidar cuebiyar okay, though to clarify so you have no proof the "ALL MUSIC" article even existed. It is odd but I also do not see any proof online for this article you mention. Am I not right in thinking the rules for wiki state without reference evidence (if it had actually been deleted or not) you cannot assume an article existed as proof for public reference? 46.135.24.252 (talk) 18:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Have you read both AfDs? I repeat, in March this year, Macgregor's article existed and was used to help establish the band's notability. Other editors had the opportunity to check that reference at that time, no-one disputed its existence. As mentioned above, some of Macgregor's content was repeated at Apple Music's history of the group, but this has also been dropped (an archive copy is available). Furthermore, Macgregor's reference is no longer being used in the WP article. Online articles often disappear over time due to link rot or the website changing/updating its format. Unfortunately this has also affected the archived form as indicated above. You claim that Macgregor's article "never actually covered this act": do you have proof of this?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  My issue isn't with any past references. I just thought WP:BLPREMOVE and WP:BLPPRIVACY might apply here. What do you think?

  Mooonswimmer 23:17, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know if the matter is so clear cut. The non-performance name was used as the band leader's performance name in the early years of the band up to about 2004. Thereafter it continued to be used for registering songwriting royalties until after the two AfDs in March 2022. The article has no reliable source to verify that the band is currently functioning, nor reliable mention of any activities by them since 2014. Hence over the active existence of the band the non-performance name was readily available on the internet and can be found on songwriting credits from that time. In what way is its use a problem for BLPREMOVE or BLPPRIVACY?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:14, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Past tense?

Should the Lead be revised to past tense? David notMD (talk) 13:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Depends on whether you can accept information supplied by vested interests at two AfDs in March last year. In AfD1, nominator Theredpaintings (claiming to be Trash McSweeney), states the article "is also hurting the bands profile and business". Implies they are still active. Four days later we have AfD2, nominated by Alan191919 (Alan Butler "representing the band The Red Paintings," and "acting on behalf of data subject, Trash McSweeney"). Butler claims "Trash McSweeney is no longer officially associated with the subject of the article" and "My client hasn’t been active in the public eye or publicly covered since 2013."

Since that time the article has undergone considerable revision. The latest information is from 2017 where the Red Paintings (with McSweeney) released a single and were touring Cumbria as part of an "extensive world tour". (see current ref [29]). Note: this contradicts Butler's claim of no involvement of his client since 2013.

I suggest past tense should be used in the Lead and add something like "As of June 2017 the band is no longer active" Unless reliable sources can be found for more recent activity.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)06:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

May not be reliable but The Red Paintings advertised as live streaming for Gothicat Festival #3 on 28 May 2020.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:20, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

References

In reference to user, shaidar cuebiyar. As one of the organizers of the Gothicat online festival, I can confirm that 'The Red Paintings' did not participate in any form. Our festival was designed solely to showcase old live shows from pre-COVID lockdowns and music videos, meaning that no actual live performances were held. Some of the videos streamed date back as far as the 1980s. Unfortunately, TRP did not submit any materials for us to stream, and we could not locate any of their music videos or live shows online. Therefore, their band name should not have been included on the digital flyer as they were not involved in the festival. It is my understanding that TRP has not been active since around 2013/14 and has no social media presence or music available on platforms such as YouTube or Spotify.

In addition, your reference to a world tour including a performance in Cumbria, a small coastal town in Queensland, Australia, does not make sense. It is unlikely that international acts, such as TRP, would perform in such a small and relatively unknown location. It is possible that there was an error in the publication of the article you referenced, particularly as there is no record of any Australian tours in 2017. In summary, TRP did not participate in the Gothicat online festival, and the details of their alleged world tour appear to be inaccurate or fabricated. 49.237.4.18 (talk) 08:12, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@David notMD and 49.237.4.18: Concerning Cumbria: read the reference [29]. The source has: "the UK leg arrives in Workington on Friday June 16. As well as the UK leg, the tour will take in mainland Europe, Russia and Iceland." Workington is a town of 25000 in Cumbria, England not "a small coastal town" in Queensland. As for the reference, Times & Star is published in Cumbria by Newsquest Media and is an independent reliable source with an editorial board and has existed for more than 20 years.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)11:46, 20 February 2023 (UTC)00:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention, and for sharing your observations. As a music promoter for over two decades, I have been following this band for many years, and can offer some factual insight into their movements over time.

However, I have reason to believe that the publication year of the article in question may be incorrect. There seems to be no reliable sources or hard evidence to support the claims made in the article.

Moreover, if the band did indeed perform in "Cabria," it does not appear to have been advertised on theirs or the venues official website or past show history, nor can I find any additional sources to corroborate this information. I also have doubts regarding the legitimacy of the photo included in the article, as it appears to be unrelated to the supposed performance.

Given that the band has a history of canceling shows, tours, and events without public explanation, particularly from 2012 onwards, it is possible that the performance was either canceled or never took place at all. Therefore, I question the validity of the claims made in this article, particularly as there are no other sources to support its claims.

In addition, while you have pointed out a 2018 Camden Rocks event, I can confirm that the band did not play this event, nor were they ever confirmed for a venue or time. In fact, they were removed from all promotions.

In summary, based on the information available to me, I believe that there are inconsistencies with the article's claims, and we cannot confirm the accuracy of the information presented in this one article. For instance, the band has never played in Russia or Iceland, despite the fact that they mentioned the possibility of touring there in a Facebook announcement. However, there are no reliable sources or hard evidence of these countries being toured by the band outside the mentioning of this article, which appears to be a copy-and-pasted press release or an old update this publication decided to copy.

Furthermore, if the publication is supposedly covering this show, then it is strange that there are no after-show reviews to be found. It is possible that the date is either incorrect, or the show never happened at all, or was canceled, and they kept the article up anyway. However, this is all speculative, and it is difficult to say for certain what happened.

In any case, I believe that we should not take this article at face value, as it lacks reliable sources and hard evidence to support its claims. Press releases are not hard evidence of actual shows taking place, and we should be cautious when relying on such sources to confirm the veracity of an event. 49.237.47.36 (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

2017 Tour info:

1. Willowman Festival, mid-June, same
2. "nat in art land 1 – the red paintings" Wordpress, hence not reliable, but claims to have seen them perform in May 2017 prior to UK tour
3. Opium Alternative Club & Bar, Edinburgh 20 June
4. Broadcast, Glasgow 21 June. Appears to be a review of their performance with photos.

The UK tour leg, at least, looks like it did happen in June 2017.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I see. Looks like they may have done a few shows, but again, there are no sources to back up 'Cabria' or 'Iceland & Russia' as these tours never took place. Is it right to be adding this information to the page when there are no legitimate sources, venues, dates, or show announcements to back this up? 49.237.8.149 (talk) 07:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

You claimed there was no 2017 UK tour, no performances in Cumbria, England (not Cumbria, Queensland and not Cabria). You claim the Times & Star source is a press release and that there are no reviews of their performances. Now you acknowledge that your claims are not supported. It seems your knowledge of this band's history is not as extensive as you declared; hence, how can you be sure that they did not perform elsewhere and more recently than June 2017?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I apologize if my previous statements were not adequately supported by verifiable sources. I understand the importance of providing accurate and reliable information, particularly when it comes to historical events and performances. What you have presented is the possibility of a few shows the band played in 2017, not a tour. However, I have not found any other sources that support the claim of a Cumbria show taking place. I recognize that my claims are not supported when I cannot find sources to do so.

While it is true that the Times & Star source appears to be a reliable publication, I still maintain that it is just a press release. However, I should acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that the information it contains is inaccurate. Additionally, I recognize that my statement that the band did not perform in Cumbria, England, in 2017 may have been incorrect, and I am open to revising my claims based on new evidence. Have you found any supporting evidence that provides actual proof of a tour of Iceland and Russia taking place in 2017, that is including specific dates and venues, reviews after the shows, or any other verifiable sources? As someone who has been a promoter for some years now and followed the act for some time, I can confirm that I did not see any dates or venues announced after this time for any of these countries you have noted. As I explained earlier, the band was known for canceling many shows from 2012 onwards, and I think this needs to be taken into consideration.

That being said, I still maintain that it is important to rely on verifiable sources and to approach historical claims with a critical eye. While new evidence may emerge that challenges previous assumptions, it is important to remain grounded in the available evidence and to avoid making claims that are not supported by verifiable sources. 49.237.21.206 (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe I can convince you that they were still performing in 2017 and possibly into 2018. Certainly years after your earlier claim of their not performing after 2012/2013. I believe Times & Star and MusicScramble references are sufficient for the claim of a 2017 tour of UK to be supported – not only "a few shows". Further, less reliable, sources have them performing in Germany into 2018 but I have not added these to the article.

You state "the band was known for canceling many shows from 2012 onwards" do you evidence of these cancellations and the band's reputation/history of being unreliable?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Well as a music promoter and someone who works in the industry being discussed, I believe our perspectives may differ. While I understand that you may not be convinced either, I must point out that this band did not conduct tours in 2017/18, but rather played selective shows, as you have correctly noted. It is not accurate to make claims of international tours based solely on one publication's press release, especially when there are no other sources confirming that the band toured Iceland, Russia, or any other major countries. I cannot provide evidence of this because it simply did not happen. If the band did not play shows at certain venues, and if the promoters and band did not advertise the shows with information on dates, venues, etc., then it is safe to assume that the shows did not occur. If they did you would find venues, dates etc advertised but that is not the case. This is why I believe it makes no sense to add false information to the article without actual proof that it happened. Simply claiming that one publication mentioned an international tour does not make it a factual event.

As for your requests on "proving cancellations" no I can not present evidence under Wikipedia's guidelines that would warrant such evidence meaning there are no publications or source's that I believe covered such cancellations because as I already mentioned the band had posted ideas for tours or shows on their FB which it seems they no longer have or any social media for that matter, and it seems publication/s picked up on this and made mention without doing their own research, but I think safe to say the proof is clear based on what I have explained to you above. 49.237.46.103 (talk) 10:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

2018 Festival appearance?

Listed as appearing at Camden Rocks Festival, North London in June 2018.

References

In addition, while you have pointed out a 2018 Camden Rocks event, I can confirm that the band did not play this event, nor were they ever confirmed for a venue or time. In fact, they were removed from all promotions.

Where is your evidence for this?22:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

As previously discussed, evidence supporting the claim can be found in the facts. The band in question cannot be found in the venue or timetables for the events, and their name was not included on street posters or other promotional materials. I am including a link to further support this evidence: https://camdenrocksfestival.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/CRF18-Stage-Times-White.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.237.46.103 (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC) and the festivals official website and festival poster that shows ALL the bands announced, you will see the act is not included, what more evidence do you need? https://camdenrocksfestival.com/line-up/line-up-poster/

Privacy Issue

On behalf of Trash McSweeney, I am trying to get his real identity removed from this page for privacy reasons. Per WP:OSPOL removal of such non-public information can be requested, "Identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals who have not made their identity public." As his real name is not public any longer, we are requesting this removal. Currently there are also not any reliable citations to support his real identity and also all Red Painting song credits are to the name Trash McSweeney. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the most common name should be used. I have already removed the name per the instructions on WP:OSPOL . Please do not add it back. I have also emailed the Oversight team about this. Brotherlouie1 (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Consider the phrase "who have not made their identity public" from WP:OSPOL. During the early history of this group the founding mainstay performed, recorded and gave interviews under his "real name" until about 2004. This name was revealed publicly more than 20 years ago. About six months or so after relocating to Brisbane his performance name was changed, however his "real name" (non-performance name) was still used for song writing credits until about March 2022 (after the two AfDs). Again this information was publicly available until that time. The band appears to have had no verifiable activity since about 2018, hence the "real name" or non-performance name was used publicly throughout the band's history. Other artists have changed their performance names and may use various preferred names during their performance lifespan. If they have an article in Wikipedia then their non-performance name is generally supplied where it has been publicly used. In this case it was reported by various websites describing this band's early history.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Secondly, you cite WP:OPSOL to protect the "Identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals". Does this apply to Trash McSweeney? See Jensen (ref [7]) from 2007, where Jensen states "His name is not a pseudonym but the result of his Hungarian heritage". If this claim is true how does WP:OSPOL apply?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I cleaned up the article some more today. Since the frontman is known in the media as Trash McSweeney, his real name at birth is could be considered fan trivia and I think it can be left out of the article, with no harm done. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 14:42, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@Shaidar cuebiyar Per wiki policies the most common name should be used and wiki policies state that they do honor requests of individuals that want private info removed, as long as it is not widely available. There are also currently not any reliable sources for his previous name. If you search Google, what comes up are from unreliable sources such as music directories, album listing sites, and interviews, none of which are considered to be reliable sources. In order to even cite such info, reliable sources are needed. Please respect his wishes and let this go. Brotherlouie1 (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Expertwikiguy

Hello @Shaidar cuebiyar:. It seems like The Red Paintings' member has hired a reputation mangement firm to whitewash this article. User:Cornertrent was blocked recently and I highly suspect others are socks too. Please review this whole article and readd anything which was recently removed by some accounts groomed in specific niche by Expertwikiguy. It seems they hired them in September 2022, so accounts created after September 2022 are groomed for this specific purpose. 194.156.79.92 (talk) 09:15, 26 April 2023 (UTC)