Talk:Tamara Toumanova

"Sources"

The cited site http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm is not a reliable source. It is "an unofficial fan site created and maintained by Jorgen Wilhelmsson" [1] and believes that "Tamara Toumanova (Tumanishvili) was born in 1919 by Georgian parents" while it is a fact that at least her father wasn't a Georgian. Citations like Georgian Dancers, LLC Books, 2010 and International Encyclopedia of Dance, Oxford University Press, 1998 are not correct, authors and pages are not mentioned. See WP:RS and WP:Offline. 89.178.121.40 (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to make the references complete, but the page has been protected. Besides that, I assume that all sources not supporting her Armenian descent are unreliable... Antique Rose — Drop me a line 12:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

then what was the reason for editwarring, if you think all sources not supporting her Armenian descent are unreliable? it's better to think at first and then act. 85.141.14.195 (talk) 08:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I was being ironic... Antique Rose — Drop me a line 14:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

You're always more ironic than serious. but this is an encyclopedia... 85.141.14.195 (talk) 06:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is. So please stop your Armenian POV pushing. Tamara Toumanova was of Georgian ancestry. She has confirmed that in several interviews. You have yet to produce reliable sources supporting her alleged Armenian descent. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 10:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

As I asked earlier, you never provided any reliable sources. A source calls her mother "Georgian princess", you're using it as a source in support of her Georgian descent. Before starting editwarring please discuss and made consensus here. 176.14.208.162 (talk) 04:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

You want sources about Tamar's Georgian descent. You may see them here: http://www.ballerinagallery.com/toumanov.htm http://burusi.wordpress.com/cinema/tamara-toumanova-tumanishvili/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.180.14 (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I have provided several reliable sources, but you keep deleting them. That is considered vandalism. Toumanova has confirmed her Georgian descent in several interviews. Your sources are questionable at best. Toumanova's Georgian descent is an established fact. So, before you continue edit warring, please discuss. Your alleged sources lack ISBN, author and page references. One "source" refers to a search page of the Russian version of Google Books. Do you consider that being a reliable source? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 13:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear All, I don't understand why this is still being discussed as this issue was already addressed above in a section Sources. Firstly, she is of Polish/Ukrainian and Georgian descent, not just Georgian (or Armenian), her father was Khazidowich-Boretski, a Pole from Ukraine. Secondly, Tamara herself, her mother and her family and friends have stated that her mother is Georgian. These are primary sources and should be taken as facts, the rest is speculation and rumours. Thirdly, although we are mentioning an Armenian hypothesis, we don't need to put in so many sources, as most of the sources are citing each other, only sources from Lopato and Heppenstall are originals, the rest are citing them, so its in fact the same source (by the way of background none of them knew Tamara or her family well or at all, so its very much secondary sources). Finally, this information should not be in the first sentence of the article, she is known as an American ballerina and actress, period. This above info should be in the personal life section when describing her mums biography, so a request to admin should be to move this sentence about her descent further down the text and state that according to Tamara and her family she was Georgian, but some sources also note possible Armenian heritage. I believe this is objective and fair based on the information available. --DPetryz (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

If her father was Konstantin Zakharov, wouldn't she have been born Tamara Konstantinovna Zakharova?? Just curious. Quis separabit? 19:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this page for 3 days due to an ongoing edit war. Use the time to resolve this dispute. Users who continue to edit war after protection expires may be blocked from editing so that non-disruptive editors are not prevented from improving and maintaining this article. Regards, causa sui (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Please look in the archives of this talk page, do these accounts seem willing to settle anything?--Andriabenia (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Правильно заблокировали основной текст. Have correctly blocked the basic text

• Правильно заблокировали основной текст. Не вижу необходимости детально разбирать личную жизнь Евгении матери Тамары.Очень вероятно, что отец Тамары - Захаров Константин. То что фамилия Тамары с какого то времени стала Хасидовичь это факт.
• Вероятно существуют документы о первом браке Евгении: известы родители Захарова Константина, где и когда он учился в гимназии, получал медицинское образование.Наверно сохранились записи в церковных книгах о регистрации брака и месте где проходило венчание. Где? в Грузии? или нет?
• В Российских медицинских списках 1913, 1914, 1916 годов, в списках врачей СССР 1924 года Захарова Константина нет.Не ясно, видел ли Константин Захаров дочь Тамару после её рождения?
• Следует воздержаться от разблокирования основного текста.Я первым указал на текст грузинского издания, в котором упоминается Захаров Константин, как отец Тамары.Моя цель узнать более полную информацию о нем. Но не могу пока отнести это издание к АИ, так как текст содержит больше вопросов, чем ответов о родителях Тамары. Shulyatikov (talk) 06:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
• have correctly blocked the basic text. I do not see necessity in details to assort private life Evgenies of mother Tamara. It is very probable that Tamara's father - Zaharov Konstantin. That that Tamara's surname with what that of time became Hasidovich it is the fact.
• Possibly there are documents on first marriage Evgenies: известы Zaharova Konstantin's parents where and when he studied in a grammar school, received a medical education. Records in church books about registration of marriage and a place likely have remained where passed wedding. Where? In Georgia? Or not?
• In the Russian medical lists 1913, 1914, 1916, in lists of doctors of the USSR of 1924 Zaharova Konstantin is not present. Not clearly, whether saw Konstantin Zaharov daughter Tamara after its birth?
• it is necessary to refrain from разблокирования the basic text. I have specified to the first in the text of the Georgian edition in which Zaharov Konstantin, as Tamara's father is mentioned. My purpose to learn fuller information on it. But I can not while to carry this edition to АИ as the text contains more questions, than answers about Tamara's parents.Shulyatikov (talk) 06:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The only 'source' this Zaharov appears is a georgian journal. Many reliable sources like A. Vassiliev, Lopato in their books, "Motion picture" #67-68 of 1944, also [2] mention Khassidovitch as her father. Rast5 (talk) 10:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

"Possibly there are documents on first marriage", "In the Russian medical lists 1913,1914, 1916"....etc All of this requires sources. If we had access to Tamara's Russian medical records and documents on Evgenia's first marriage, this dispute would not arise in the first place. So I'm really confused as to what you are trying to accomplish by continuously publishing this nonsense. Find me her medical records, find me Eugenia's marriage certificate and that will be the end of the story.--Andriabenia (talk) 09:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if Khasidovitch was her father, we do not know whether that was her name at birth, because 1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was. 2.If Khasidovitch was a tsarist colonel, as the sources claim, then it was possibly unwise for Eugenia to let the world know that Tamara was his daughter, considering that in revolutionary Russia tsarist loyalists where themselves fleeing. That is why I propose that we drop discussing her birth name altogether, unless there is an explicit proof--Andriabenia (talk) 10:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

According to sources, Khassidovitch was her father, and her birth name was Khassidovitch (see f.e. Derek C. Hulme, 2010, p. 758). The only 'source' that thinks otherwise is that georgian journal, we have no reliable sources, and everyone except you sees its nonsense. Her Khassidovich surname is even proved by US Official Naturalization documents [3]. It is a primary source for Wikipedia! Rast5 (talk) 13:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Then show me that naturalization document, don't show me an ancestry.com listing. Ancestry.com search list is not a document.--Andriabenia (talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• Уважаемый Andriabenia! Вы сами можете зайти на сайт Ancestry.com.Спор тут не уместен - ВАМ НАДО ПОСМОТРЕТЬ САМОМУ.По имени и/или фамилии Toumanjv(a) и/или Khassidovitch Вы без всякой регистрации можете посмотреть перечень документов связанных с этими фамилиями [[4]].Более полную информацию можно получить после регистрации (на этом же сайте) бесплатно в течении 14 дней. Имеет смысл набрать и фамилию Tumanishvili Захаров и др.(Вы убедитесь, что с этой фамилией документов на сайте нет).В отношении медицинских списков - они есть в библиотеках Тбилиси и других крупных городах. Существуют фонды церквей, гимназий в архивах Грузии. Из американских источников известна дата рождения Евгении 21 апреля 1899 года. Можно предположить и сроки первой свадьбы (если она была) Евгении.Я предполагаю , работники архивов Грузии Вам помогут.Я скопировал с экрана изображения и превратил их в рисунки (которые Вы вероятно смотрели), чтобы выложить их на своем сайте, так как вероятно указанные мной адреса Вы не смотрели (открывали).По этому адресу я выложу и другие документы, поэтому периодически смотрите этот альбом фотографий.Но почему Вы не указываете полные данные о Захарове Константине? Не вижу необходимости обсуждать публично личную жизнь Евгении (1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was.).Зачем? Успехов! Shulyatikov (talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Прошу воздержаться от доступа к основному тексту статьи о Тамаре. Shulyatikov (talk) 05:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Respected Andriabenia! You can come on site Ancestry.com.Спорить here it is not necessary - YOU SHOULD LOOK САМОМУ.По a name and-or surname Toumanjv (a) and-or Khassidovitch you without any registration can look the list of documents connected with these surnames [[5]]. Fuller information can be received after registration (on the same site) free of charge in a current of 14 days. It makes sense to type and surname Tumanishvili Zaharov, etc. (you are convinced that with this surname of documents on a site is not present).В the relation of medical lists - they are in libraries of Tbilisi and other big cities. There are funds of churches, grammar schools in archives of Georgia. From the American sources the date of birth Evgenies is known on April, 21st, 1899. It is possible to assume and terms of the first wedding (if it was) Evgenies. I assume, workers of archives of Georgia will help you. I have copied from the screen of the image and have transformed them into drawings (which you possibly looked) to lay out them on the site as addresses possibly specified by me you did not look (opened).По to this address I will lay out also other documents, therefore periodically look this album of photos. But why you do not specify the full data about Zaharove Konstantin? I do not see necessity to discuss publicly private life Evgenies (1. Eugenia, a socialite with multiple relations, could be unsure as to whose child she was.). What for? Successes!

I ask to refrain from access to the basic text of article about Tamara. Shulyatikov (talk) 06:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Reverting to the pre-edit war version

I am going to revert to the pre-revert war version, which means that the so called "references" that have been inserted afterwards will be removed. To avoid later confusion, I am going to restate what I discussed endlessly in the archived talk, as well as edit summaries when I first cleaned up the article.

• Ancesty.com search listing is not a proof of anyone's birth name. It can be, at most, a proof that such person existed and carried the listed name when she entered the US or when she was naturalized. Since we have no better sources for the birth name, I'm removing any notion of birth name, as I had done before, and it should not be reinserted unless there is a source that explicitly states what her name was.
• The sources inserted by user:rast5 either do not support the proposed text or use each other as references. Different works should not be inserted separately if they are all based on a single source or one another.
• Furthermore, it is a matter of common sense that the statements made by the personality herself should carry more weight than the "he said/she said" information dug up on the web. Deleting it, which user:rast likes to do, or throwing it with other sources is, therefore, unacceptable.
• Lastly, this is an English wikipedia and discussions must take place in English. Pasting Russian-language texts, as user:Shulyatikov likes to do, or pasting rough google translations that confuse us even more, are not welcome. As you can see, I archived this talk page only a short while ago and it is already full with text that no one can make sense of.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It was your sockpuppet, that started the edit war and deleted the relieble sources putting the photo of a tomb as a relibale source. Deletion of reliable sources is considered vandalism. 178.176.133.57 (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Sock puppet investigation exonerated me of any of these ridiculous accusations. You, on the other hand are being reported for evading the block.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it proved that it was a sock disruption (see User:Andriabenia). Gazifikator (talk) 04:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

It has been established that you, on the other hand, is the sock puppet master of several accounts, including disruptive user Rast5. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rast5. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 10:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I was already blocked. Gazifikator (talk) 10:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Disputed

If one really wants to revert to the pre-edit war version one needs to go way back. The edit war and sock puppet edits seem to have begun here, with the Armenian POV-pushing. The user IP 178.176.133.57, commenting above, may be linked to Gazifikator/Rast5. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 16:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

And the Georgian POV-pushing started here [6] by simple purpose account User:JadwigaPiwo who vandalized the article by changing Toumanova's origin into Georgian while citing the souces in support of her Armenian descent. This user, as well as IP:88.211.44.71, indef blocked users User:Biographyspot, User:Archie Zuckermann, User:DPetryz and User:Andriabenia may be linked to Antique Rose. In reality, he has nothing to discuss here, everything is sourced, so he formally puts a tag with no any real explanations. Gazifikator (talk) 17:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Revert to Original Version

Dear all,

In regards to this article, it clearly needs to be returned to previous version (it seems that only one party (Gazifikator) is changing it back to the current version). Tamara herself, as well as her mother have both explicitly claimed Georgian descent (references included) and have never mentioned any Armenian roots, so I am quite puzzled as to why there is a dispute. On top of that all her contemporary press note her as being Georgian as well as her biographers. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and should be treated as one. One should take more care when finding something on the internet and citing without checking the sources. - out of eight sources mentioned that claim Tamara had Armenian ancestry, six refer to the same source, Thomas Stearns Eliot. So there is no need to be quoting so many sources as it leads to the same source in the end (rest can be put into further reading) - Only other unique source is Ms. Lopato, whose comments have since been disregarded by such distinguished authors as A. Vassiliev (please refer to his latest edition of his book).

Only unique and primary sources should used for the main part of the article:

• Direct quotes by Tamara Toumanova and her mother:

- Book George Balanchine: The Ballet Maker by Robert Gottlieb p.136: Tamara Toumanova quote "He took real care of me...he used to love Mama and Papa...with my tristesse, with my being part Georgian." [7]

- The Hartford Courant Interview, 03 Nov 1934: "...her mother...Madame was a Georgian? But yes, certainly and did the interviewer know of the beauty of Georgia, the gallantry of the Georgian men and, ah, the loveliness..."[8]

• Her contemporary press articles and interviews stating her Georgian roots:

- Examiner, 19 Apr 1952: "...daughter of colonel and a Georgian..." [9] - Baby Ballerina Still on Her Toes at 76 20 Aug 1995, by Marc Shulgold (Music / Dance writer): "Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..."[10]

• Statements made by her family and friends:

- Her nephew (grandson of her mothers brother, Zakaria Tumanishvili) Georgian artist G. Pkhakadze: "...they descend from a great Georgian family...our family in Tbilisi received a call from Tamara Toumanova with sad news of her mother passing away...she wanted her mother to be buried in Tbilisi, Georgia..." [11]

- Her niece, a famous pianist M. Chkheidze: "Eugenia Tumanishvili's mother was my aunt, a Georgian Princess Chkheidze...we would speak over the phone with Tamara and my brother managed to visit her in LA before she passed away...she would send us some of her memorabilia, but we did not find means to attend the auction of her unique memorabilia when it was auctioned after her death..." interview on 15 Nov 2004 by David Guigauri and interview by Mr. Shulyatikov on 22 Oct 2011

- Quote by Irina Baronova, Tamara's life long best friend from the age of 11 and a fellow "Baby Ballerina": "We never had a rivalry, Baronova insisted, "even though Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..."[12]

- Statement by the great ballerina Nina Ananiashvili who knew Tamara personally: "It was a dream to meet one of the first legendary Georgian ballerinas.." "...a photograph was brought to me of Tamara in a Georgian dress..." [13]

• Official obituary from her residence town Los Angeles: LA Times: ..."The daughter of Imperial Russian Army Col. Khassidovitch Toumanov and a Georgian" [14]

• Official death record of her mothers brother Zakaria Toumanov/Tumanishvili in Russia: "...ethnicity: Georgian" [15]

• Her mothers grave with a Georgian Orthodox cross: [16]

• Research and books stating Tamara's Georgian origin:

- The Hound & Horn, Volume 7, 1933, p. 120: "Tamara Toumanova, a name that should soon be world-famed...she is Georgian, aged fifteen..."[17]

- Artists of the Dance by Lillian Moore, 1938, p.236: "...daughter of the colonel and a gentlewoman of aristocratic Georgian lineage." [18]

- Fashion & Style by A. Vasiliev: "she was born to...Khasidovich-Boretsky and a Georgian, Eugenia..." [19]

- A Glimpse of Olympus by Diana Menuhin, 1996, p.78: "Toumanova has a beautiful Georgian face..." [20]

- Official Russian site of television and theatre "Kino-Teatr": "...her mother was a Georgian, Eugenia...nee Tumanishvili.." [21].

Request to admin to revert the changes to the original version, before changes by Gazifikator.

Best regards,

--DanceStation (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Read WP:SOCK. Thnx! Gazifikator (talk) 17:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You accuse other users of socking, but it is all too obvious that you too have been using sockpuppets. The evidence speaks for itself: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gazifikator/Archive. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 00:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

For your "evidence" please use SPI. And what means 'I accuse'? it is a proven fact [22]. Gazifikator (talk) 04:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a proven fact that you are Rast5, see User:Rast5 ("This account is a sock puppet of Gazifikator and has been blocked indefinitely."), an account used for conducting excessive edit wars. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 12:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So what? You're becoming more and more disruptive with repeating the same boring 'story', backing sockpuppet OxfordGeo and wikistalking me with silly accusations. Gazifikator (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive? Silly accusations? I'm only stating the obvious. Do you mean that the checkuser made a mistake identifying you with Rast5 and several other socks? Please, do not throw stones while sitting in a glass house. And do read WP:NPA. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 21:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:HOUND and WP:MEAT. Gazifikator (talk) 12:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm well aware of these pages. Are you? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 16:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Recently added source

The source added here consists of Wikipedia articles, according to Amazon.com. Wikipedia should not cite itself. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 11:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

As you can see, Wikipedia is not citing this source, it is just added as an external link (which is by the way, is not active). Gazifikator (talk) 19:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Tamara Toumanova 1996

• [[23]] Shulyatikov (talk) 02:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 21:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2013

According to Georgian relatives from Toumanov(Toumanishvili)side,Vladimir Khasidovich was stepfather of Tamara Toumanova. Bibikate (talk) 21:23, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Vacation9 03:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2013

This is interview with Tamara Toumanova's Georgian relatives http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/arts/dance/balanchine-and-toumanova-in-a-teenagers-eyes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Bibikate (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Vacation9 03:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2013

Legal husband of Eugenia Toumanova and real father of Tamara Toumanova was military person Konstantin Zakharov.

Bibikate (talk) 21:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Vacation9 03:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2013

  Tamara Toumanova was not born as Tamara Vladimirovna Khassidovitch as you write on wikipedia page.Because her mother Eugenia met Vladimir Khassidovitch later.

Bibikate (talk) 21:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Vacation9 03:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

About parents of Vladimir Khassidovitch

• There are copies of service records of Dmitry Khassidovitch (he is a father of Vladimir Khassidovitch) through the links. Vladimir Khassidovitch changed his family name to his spouse’s (Evgeniya) family name at August of 1943. Next his full name became Vladimir Toumanov[[24]]. He was buried with this family name [[25]] and this family name was wrote in funeral documents of Tamara Toumanova [[26]].

A name such as Khassidovich should clearly indicate Jewish origin. As for stating that they were Georgian, how people described themselves in these decades of the 20th century may have little to do with reality, and everything to do with what they wanted people to think. The sources mean nothing. As for Wikipedia being an encyclopedia. As long as anyone can contribute or change it, it has no real standing as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.79.240 (talk) 04:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• About Vladimir’ mother (Maria) religion – Records of service, dated 1872 – orthodox [[27]].
• Dmitry Khassidovitch were wrote - petty bourgeois of Kiev region, orthodox[[28]] [[29]] [[30]] [[31]] [[32]].
• Dmitry Khassidovitch became a senior at 1904 from a court counselor position[[33]].
• There were no any note about Polish origin of Vladimir’s parents. Shulyatikov (talk) 11:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Roles

• Vicente Garcia-Marquez TOUMANOVA, Tamara. Roles.International Dictionary of Ballet: VOL. 2 L - Z. P.1427-1430,St James Press, 1993 ISBN 1558620842, 9781558620841 Shulyatikov (talk) 13:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamara Khassidovitch 1919-43 Tamara Toumanova 1943-96

• Tamara Khassidovitch 1919-43 [[34]] [[35]]
• Tamara Toumanova 1943-96 [[36]]] Shulyatikov (talk) 07:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Tamara Khassidovitch 1919-43

• Tamara Khassidovitch 1919-43 [[37]] Shulyatikov (talk) 20:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

References

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/105886027558885815466/album/AF1QipNhyBKoeFmVAfLs4pYokwqCjcg7VfUBshD3j6nW Shulyatikov (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

1941 or '44 third act in New York ?

In last paragraph:

"Most historians point to a 1941 production of the third act titled “The Magic Swan”, performed by the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo at the Metropolitan Opera. Since, at that time, Western audiences knew Swan Lake merely by its second act (the “white” act), in order to make Odile’s role more distinguishable, the production had the ballerina who danced her, Tamara Toumanova, dress in a black costume."

http://www.cmuse.org/curious-facts-about-tchaikovsky-swan-lake/ --Santasa99 (talk) 12:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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Source for place of birth?

While looking at the back and forth about her nationality, I don't see a source cited for the place of birth. Which source supports where she was born? For that matter, is there anything to indicate her nationality at her birth? —C.Fred (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)