Talk:Sublette (surname)

Proposed merge with Soblet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Variation of the same name Polyamorph (talk) 08:22, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support merge. Simple variant. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:23, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Sublette" is one later variant (and not even the most common) derivative from the original surname "Soblet," according to the cited sources. If anything, the surname "Sublette" should be merged as a subcategory into the "Soblet" page, as should the more common variant "Sublett," not the other way around. 71.142.210.195 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. There was nothing to merge. I reverted the IP's edit: we do not list nonnotable people in surname pages. Wikipedia is not a genealogy project. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Staszek Lem. Nothing to merge. Wikipedia is not a genealogy project and we do not list nonnotable people in surname pages. Alsee (talk) 08:46, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
• Comment There are sources provided in the Soblet page so might be something worth merging, also there has been the suggestion that the Soblet should be the main page. Please do not revert the page or the merge tags until consensus is reached. Polyamorph (talk) 09:21, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

  I should have reverted back more than one edit, to get back to the merge tags.
  To be clear: We appear to have zero biographies for "Soblet", which would make it a very strange and confusing merge destination. And we shouldn't be including a family genealogy tracing various nonnotable ancestors. Alsee (talk) 09:37, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

  According to the sources on both pages, Soblet was the original spelling, and variations like Sublett and Sublette are later versions of the same name. It would be arbitrary to make one of the later variant spellings like Sublette the main page, while also deleting the context and history of the surname; Sublette should be a subcategory of the original surname page (Soblet). There are also notable individuals with the spelling Sublett linked on the original page (that spelling is earlier and more common, according to the cited sources). Including a brief sentence about the origin of the surname, and the first known family with that name, as context for later spelling variations, is not unreasonable, as long as reliable, scholarly sources are cited. (If you disagree, you could just delete that sentence, rather than the entire page.) Also, are you assuming the people named on the page aren't notable because they don't already have their own Wikipedia pages? How many books or magazines have to mention a person over 300 years before they become notable? Maybe everyone interested should check out the cited sources on both pages and do a couple minutes of research before making assumptions and deleting pages unilaterally. 71.142.210.195 (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

  In Wikipedia we have specific criteria for notability of people, WP:NBIO. The people listed in Soblet page may be notable for Sublette family, but not for wikipedia. The sources cited are self-published particular family genealogies, which are not considered reliable sources in Wikipedia, because they are not vetted by professional historians. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

  I have seen at least three of the books cited in the page. The first is a compilation book of articles written by Cameron Allen, a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogists, and published by the Detroit Society for Genealogical Research, with other articles from the journal The American Genealogist, all professionally edited and published in respected and nationally recognized scholarly journals (vetted by professional historians, as you say), quite the opposite of being "self-published." Specific volumes and issues of those original scholarly journals could also be cited, if someone wanted to do some additional research on this topic; but there's no question as to their reliability as sources by Wikipedia standards (as far as Cameron Allen's published writings are concerned). Many of these arguments seem to be generalizations or assumptions, made from someone who has not even reviewed the cited sources, or is not familiar with their content, author, or publishing history.

  These are self-published books, publishers being sublette/soblet family. Such sources are not allowed in wikipedia. If you have scholarly articles, please cite them. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

  Also we should not get hung up on specific variant spellings of the surname being discussed; all surname spellings should be merged into a single page, which at the very least should have a well-cited summary of how the different spellings originated and how they're connected. It is kind of arbitrary to say one variant spelling is "more notable" than other spellings of the same name (e.g., under Sublette, three of the individuals listed were brothers from the same family, notable for the same thing, which is hardly proof that their spelling was "more notable" than any other spelling). See the Wikipedia article for the name Katherine (Catherine, Kathryn, Katharine, etc.); it is a good example of combining several variant spellings of a name into one article (though it, too, is kind of arbitrary whether the main page should be Katherine or Catherine). It seems to me the oldest, original spelling of a name (according to cited reliable sources) should be the main page, unless there's a specific Wikipedia surname policy contradicting that -- otherwise we're just debating which spelling we "like better," which is subjective and arbitrary. For this reason, the Sublette and Sublett surname pages should be merged into the original Soblet page, not the other way around. (Discussing notability and reliability of sources would be a separate discussion from the page merging discussion, and can be addressed through editing the page and gathering better sources to cite. If you find a fact questionable, use a "citation needed" tag, or discuss removing or rewriting one section of the page, rather than reverting the whole page to earlier edits, or simply deleting it.) 71.142.210.195 (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support the merge to one page as there is already signficant overlap in the content and name spelling variants are commonly listed on one page. Regarding the destination, I recommend Sublette (surname) on the basis of the general WP:NAMINGCRITERIA: Recognizability (name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize) and Naturalness (The title is one that readers are likely to look or search). I also note that none of the naming criteria in that policy gives primacy to the etymological root. Indeed, WP:NAMECHANGES gives primacy to the more modern name, again suggesting Sublette (surname). Klbrain (talk) 23:54, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

  You missed the point: there is nothing to merge: the sources cited are self-published sources. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.