Talk:Stuart Sutcliffe

Sexual relationship and Alleged Kicking By Lennon

This is a very good article and appears extranordinarily well researched so I am not adding anything to it at the moment but there is an interview in the Nov. 27, 2007 East Hampton Star with his sister Pauline Sutcliffe. It includes some quotes and other stuff that would be useful in the article. Of particular note are these two paragraphs which discuss a possible sexual relationship between Lennon and Sutcliffe and the possibility of that Lennon may have kicked Sutcliffe in head. It also quotes a letter from Sutcliffe discussing that he homosexuals were attracted to him. Both of those issues should probably be incorporated in the article (if only to debunk them).

Around the time of her move, her second book, “Stuart Sutcliffe & His Lonely Hearts Club,” came out in England. It revived rumors of a homosexual relationship between Lennon and Sutcliffe, and it put the blame for her brother’s death on a beating Lennon supposedly gave Sutcliffe 11 months before his death in 1962. “Stuart said John kicked him in the head, and I’m convinced that kick was what eventually led to Stuart’s death,” Ms. Sutcliffe wrote.

The media frenzy that ensued after the book’s publication dismayed Ms. Sutcliffe, who said that both allegations — homosexuality and Lennon’s having a murderous temper — were unfair. “I didn’t throw out these two themes,” she said. “They were extrapolated out by the media. I think I’m quite sophisticated, but, boy, was I naive.”

Americasroof 15:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The woman wanted to sell a book, and her publishers thought it would be good to add some new material; they make more money that way. If you want to add it you should but put it under a section called "Pauline Sutcliffe" (near the end) and not in the main article. Good on you that you saw that and brought it up, BTW. Good stuff.--andreasegde (talk) 02:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: "It also quotes a letter from Sutcliffe discussing that he homosexuals were attracted to him.":

Being the object of homosexual attraction is very different from being the subject of homosexual attraction. The article as it currently reads strongly suggests that Pauline thinks the passage in the letter quoted is clear evidence that Sutcliffe had homosexual tendencies, when in fact it is not at all evidence of this nor does it logically imply it in anyway. I charge this section of the article as it currently stands with malicious rumor-mongering. TheScotch (talk) 08:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole Pauline section needs to be formatted properly (book in references and correct page references). At the moment it is far too long, and the quotes need to be formatted and cut down. It is sensationalist, and could be construed as partly POV by a reader. At best it is a short paragraph. If nobody else does it, I will.--andreasegde (talk) 12:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If his sister who has control of his property and papers makes those claims, they are significant. I was only following the suggestion made in talk. I personally feel that they should be incorporated into the main body of the article. The way it is structured now, it would seem that the article is being driven by attempts to sanitize his biography and make it p.c. Americasroof (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

His music and Art (probably not in that order) were when he was living, and then came his death; sadly. Pauline Sutcliffe's book was published in 2001, so should be at the end. See Mal Evans for the claims that someone had found his suitcase. Pauline's claims (at the moment) don't look good, as she herself said: "They were extrapolated [to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture] out by the media. I think I’m quite sophisticated, but, boy, was I naive". The whole section is shaky because of this statement. She can believe what she wants, but saying Lennon stood over Sutcliffe before running away (while Sutcliffe was presumably half-concious) is a fantasy, as no other witnesses were there and Sutcliffe could never have written/told her about it; nor does she claim he ever did. She even said, "In my heart I know", which is POV of the highest order. As Richard Nixon once said, "It's always the lie that gets you".--andreasegde (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, I have already deleted the standing over Sutcliffe and then running away sentence.--andreasegde (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PPS, I think the section should be cleaned and fully verified before it is put into the body of the article, otherwise all of Heather Mills's claims about Paul McCartney and broken wine glasses, shouting, letting her crawl to the bathroom, etc.. (ad nauseum) would also be put in McCartney's article.--andreasegde (talk) 13:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

McCartney comes under WP:BLP guidelines. Sutcliffe does not. There are also notability issues. Like it or not Sutcliffe's notability is depends on his relationship to Lennon at least as much as his own achievements, so material about that link is relevant. Paul B (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole thing depends on it being verified, and not on Pauline Sutcliffe's "feelings".--andreasegde (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm o.k. with the changes and I do understand the logic for keeping it separate. I thought from your earlier posting you were going to make bigger cuts. Americasroof (talk) 14:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Wot, me with a pair of scissors? No, I like to put stuff in with all those lovely references, yum, yum. :)) Anyway (serious mode) It has to be in the article because she published a book about it, and I think where it is now leaves the reader to decide, which is always the best. I'm glad we agree, BTW. :)--andreasegde (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, The long quote by Sutcliffe is interesting, as the things he said about how he felt have been overlooked before.--andreasegde (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Pauline's story in her book about Lennon kicking her brother in the head although there's obviously a strong tide against accepting it that could be coming for countless reasons; she might even have been subsequently threatened considering the kind of money always sitting on the table regarding the Beatles. Sometimes brothers and sisters can be quite close and perhaps she knew quite a bit about Stu Sutcliffe's experiences that remains otherwise hidden. The whole thing certainly sounds exactly like early Lennon, doesn't it? (We frequently hear descriptions of him as "dangerous" during interviews with practically anyone who knew him well during that period.) It seems more believable than the story about Lennon rescuing Suttcliffe we find in this Wikipedia article. If it is true that Lennon kicked Suttcliffe in the head during a typically infantile fight which led to the 21-year-old Suttcliffe's death from a brain hemorrhage within a year, then it makes the subsequent shamelessly reprehensible treatment of Pete Best by those "zany moptops" a matter of getting off easy by comparison. Racing Forward (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Sutcliffe and Lennon - again

As has been well reported, the whole group 'lived in each others pockets' during their time in Hamburg with Sutcliffe; living in squalid rooms that had no privacy. As there were also so many girls (call them what you will) who were willing to have sex with the group, where did Sutcliffe and Lennon find the place, or the time? Not one of the others has ever said anything about it (not even Pete Best who surely has an axe to grind). McCartney was jealous of Lennon's friendship with Sutcliffe, but that's about it.--andreasegde (talk) 14:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, "Among the papers she presented was a a letter from Sutcliffe to his mother saying that both men and women were attracted to him". Good grief, who would write that to their mother? --andreasegde (talk) 09:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone with a much healthier relationship with his or her mother than you or I have ever experienced. Racing Forward (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

The Beatles' original fan base in Hamburg were young gay males, which probably accounts for his comment.

Just an aside, Pete Best has always inferred a physical relationship existed between McCartney and Sutcliffe. He even says matter-of-factly that McCartney wrote "P.S. I Love You" to Sutcliffe, a claim that (afaik) hasn't been denied (see http://www.rickresource.com/rrp/petebest.html). If true it throws a lot of water on the usual "Paul was jealous of Stuart's relationship with John" theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.90.254 (talk) 03:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

"If true it throws a lot of water on the usual 'Paul was jealous of Stuart's relationship with John' theory" Throws a lot of water? Do you mean it throws cold water on the theory or throws a lot of light on it? Paul B (talk) 09:19, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Good call. The latter would make more sense in that context. Racing Forward (talk) 10:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Any edit made without a verifiable reference will be deleted, including edits that are slipped into referenced sentences, BTW. --andreasegde (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Which Kirchherr rode with him in the ambulance?

The "Death" section appears to contain an ambiguity. "...Nielsa Kirchherr had German doctors perform various tests, but they were unable to determine exactly what was causing the intense headaches from which he had been suffering. While living at the Kirchherrs' house in Hamburg, his condition grew steadily worse. After collapsing again, Sutcliffe was taken to a hospital by Kirchherr (who rode with him in the ambulance), but he died before reaching the hospital..." Was it Nielsa as written or was it her daughter, Astrid? Vioarc (talk) 00:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

It's an old thing: If a person's name is mentioned, they are thereafter referred to by their surname. Nielsa Kirchherr was mentioned twice (mistake), and Astrid is mentioned many times. So it was Astrid that was with him. (BTW, it has now been changed to "Kirchherr's mother had German doctors perform various tests").--andreasegde (talk) 10:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Stuart Sutcliffe/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I will do the GA Reassessment on this article as part of the GA Sweeps project. H1nkles (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The article is good, I made a few MOS edits. I added one template to the unreferenced "Film Portrayals" section. Refs [54] and [55] are dead and should be repaired. I see no reason to hold the article over these issues though and trust that these concerns will be addressed. H1nkles (talk) 16:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Dead references deleted, citation in.--andreasegde (talk) 14:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I have just gone through this with a fine toothcomb, and have cleaned and deleted, and added.--andreasegde (talk) 11:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

British Painter?

I removed this from the introduction. It's laughable. He is not a notable British painter and it is inaccurate to suggest otherwise. Stuart Sutcliffe is primarily know as the original bass player of The Beatles. 82.4.184.39 (talk) 02:52, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

He may not be a notable British painter, but he was good. Stu was the original bass player for the Beatles and left because 1)he couldn't really play the bass and 2)he met Astrid. His death was tragic, considering he was so young. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.136.59 (talk) 01:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

He was a very talented artist, with paintings acquired by major galleries at a very young age. Paul B (talk) 02:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Anraris

i am a doctor and i've never heard of anraris...do they mean an aneurysm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.104.200 (talk) 08:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Peace of Mind

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but these lyrics are actually from a song by The Spaniels- probably learned from the Gene Vincent version. Tymime (talk) 02:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

If you post a ref for that, it will be noted. Thanks for spotting it.--andreasegde (talk) 09:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

He's right. The original lines are "As I stood and I looked at the sky,/There I saw such a wondrous light,/It reminded of a star I had left/And you gave me, yes you gave me,/Well you gave me peace of mind." song was a hit in '57. However, the version given appears to be vitually identical to the opening lines of the Gene Vincent version, released in 1958 [1]. The The song is briefly discussed in Great God A'Mighty! The Dixie Hummingbirds: Celebrating the Rise of Soul Gospel Music by Jerry Zolten, Oxford University Press, 2003. p.262. However, there is no comparison to the supposed Sutcliffe composition. A number of other books mention it. Paul B (talk) 22:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I've changed this. The source is just a website of memorabilia, not academic or "reliable". There is no doubt about the actual origin of the lyics, so I see no justification for anyone to shout about needing reliable sources or about OR. Paul B (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I was not shouting. Do you have a ladder to get off that high horse?--andreasegde (talk) 09:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

What??????? The "anyone" in my statement was an imaginary editor who might come along in the future to complain that the sentence I added in the footnote not sourced. It was not intended to refer to to your comment above. Do you mind dropping that chip from your shoulder before I get on my horse. I don't want it to fall off and scare the creature. Paul B (talk) 10:38, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you always this angry, or is it just a phase? Maybe it's because of the Geordie thing? I sympathise. :))--andreasegde (talk) 18:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I was born in Penny Lane and I still have my old Quarry Bank school tie. Scousers are always ready for a fight, but generally prefer to mouth off. Geordies have to get pissed first. They can't do the verbals like a Scouser. This is due to their Viking heritage and the absence of Irish blood; they have to hit each other because even other Geordies can't understand a word they say. Paul B (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree entirely; can't stand that bloody Mills woman. As you are a Scouser, I doff my cap to you. I even married one. :)--andreasegde (talk) 08:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I married an ex-Geordie from Norfolk. Her parents were part of the Great Geordie Diaspora of the '50s, seeking somewhere even more isolated from the rest of England than Tynside. Paul B (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

You learn something new everyday, as they say. :) --andreasegde (talk) 22:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Section on Pauline Sutcliffe's memoir deleted

The entire section on Pauline Sutcliffe's memoir was deleted by an anonymous user on 27 Feb 2010, who arrived to do this one thing and has since vanished. Is this deletion (some might say sanitization) to stand without discussion? (History) (Compare) XyKyWyKy (talk) 12:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Apparently so! I doubt there should be a whole section on the topic. Paul B (talk) 16:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Beatles RfC

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning the band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Naming of the Beatles

The intro seems confusing. It says Sutcliffe & Lennon invented the band's name & then it says Lennon changed it to The Beatles. What was the name Sutcliffe & Lennon invented? GoodDay (talk) 08:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Astrid at Stuart's Funeral

I've been trying to figure out if Astrid was at the funeral in Liverpool. This article claims that she wasn't because she was ill (Cynthia Lennon's book says the same), but Lewhison's book, All Those Years states that she was there with Klaus and that she even stayed with Millie until tensions grew too much.

The evidence presented here of her non-attendance is a letter she wrote to Millie apologising for not attending. The link is broken, but it appears to be this one: http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/sutcliffe/letter4.aspx. The text is rather hard to read, but I don't see anything that looks like an apology for not attending. Furthermore, the text at the beginning of the page repeats the "too ill to attend" story, but does not explicitly state that this is mentioned in the letter. Any thoughts? Ballabosh (talk) 16:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Beatals vs Beetals

I think it should read Beetals where it says "Beatals". Ds77 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:45, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Sources seem to prefer Beatals [2]. Paul B (talk) 15:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Cause of Death

I question the portion (capitalized here) of the statement on this Wiki page regarding cause of death and prior injury: "The cause of Sutcliffe's aneurysm is unknown, ALTHOUGH IT IS BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN STARTED BY AN EARLIER HEAD INJURY (capitalization mine), as he was either kicked in the head, or thrown, head first, against a brick wall during a fight outside Lathom Hall, after a performance in January 1961.[66]"

I think this is a very sloppy, ill-informed and speculative statement about Mr. Sutcliffe's cause of death. The citation is to a non-medically trained author. In fact, it is highly probable that prior head injury(ies) was/were unrelated to Mr. Sutcliffe's cause of death.

For example, here is a seemingly medically well-considered discussion of cause of death: http://www.rockmine.com/Reaper/StuPM.html. I quote from its conclusion, in pertinent part:

"In summary, the two causes of death that best fit the scenario are Aneurysm and AVM, both congenital and unrelated to any blow to the head. None of the causes of death from a blow to the head fit the time frames or history we have on Stu."

Perhaps someone wants to re-write this to say something like, "The cause of Mr. Sutcliffe's brain condition has never been conclusively established. Speculation linking it to prior head injuries is unproven, but it is known that he was either kicked in the head, or thrown, head first, against a brick wall during a fight outside Lathom Hall, after a performance in January 1961." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.71.200.6 (talk) 19:59, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

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Fair use rationale for File:Sutcliffe and Harrison.jpg

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-- Marchjuly (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Couple questions

In November 2020, a user changed the name of the article "Stuart Sutcliffe" and "Stu Sutcliffe", stating "common name" as the reason for the move. Firstly, can someone smarter than me confirm this is correct, please? Secondly, was there a discussion for this anywhere? —Jonny Nixon (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that he's more commonly known as Stu - I think it should revert to Stuart. MFlet1 (talk) 13:04, 24 March 2022 (UTC)