Talk:StopAntisemitism
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My last edit
editThe paragraph on the Kiswani episode seemed to include some odd details for this page; at any rate, as it stood, 107 of the 318 words in entire page's body seemed, for better or worse, to be pushing Kiswani's perspective, which is neither DUE nor NPOV (what is more, the Kiswani quote seems quite clearly to be MANDY). I also tried to make more accurate the claims motivating the "anti-Semite of the year" "award", which were not limited to the sweatshirt incident. Taking a look at the page as a whole, it still seems as if this incident gets more than DUE would suggest (again, for better or worse, the Ilhan Omar event did not get less coverage, but merits only a sentence); this is hardly the end of the world, but it is worth observing. As always, very happy to discuss this further here --Publius In The 21st Century (talk) 02:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
COI edits
editFor continuity, a discussion surrounding TruthPrevailsFinally (talk · contribs) COI edits and edit requests at User_talk:Macaddct1984#StopAntisemitism_section -- MacAddct1984 (talk | contribs) 16:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- This topis is also discussed on the Talk page of the article about Vertex Pharmaceuticals. Please continue reading there for more information/discussion.
- Why this section about Waygood is relevant:
- International media coverage, see citations in the article
- Millions of views on X, thousands of comments, thousands of retweets
- Involvement of two well-known and reputable Jewish organisations (StopAntisemitism, Shirion Collective), which brought the scandal to public attention
- Vertex is a public company. This is very relevant information to the shareholders, some of which (for instance funds) have strict compliance regimes regarding incidents like this and may have to be forced to sell shares, which can cause a great economic impact.
- Vertex itself has issued a public statement including Richard Waygood's name. It is a very rare occurrence that companies comment publicly on firings, even rarer is a statement including names.
- He was a high-ranking associate (see #5), otherwise Vertex would not have fired him publicly
- As stated in the article, the incident happened just weeks after the 2023 Hames attack on Israel, during a period of time with rising antisemitism.
- There was a public outcry, targeting even his wife's (Annette Waygood) company (Partners Group), where she is also a high-ranking associate. There are also newspaper reports about his wife, who had also been at the event on which Richard Waygood wore the Nazi armband, although there is no information (yet) if she also wore Nazi clothes.
- Currently, a lot of anonymous editors (with IP address from Switzerland or from a Swiss VPN), as well as some new user accounts, try to censor/vandalize the article by editing the section about Richard Waygood without sources.
- However:
- Wikipedia is not censored, see here
- Wikipedia relies on sources and not on claims or first-hand "evidence". A source is, for example, a newspaper. The current incident has been reported internationally by well-renowned newspapers, including the name of the associate.
- MarcoMiller2 (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding so-called "data privacy" which is constantly mentioned by the anonymous editors:
- 1 This is similar to the Tron/Boris Floricic naming controversary case, whose name has been public for nearly 20 years, even after lawsuits against the Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia abides by the laws of the US and not by Swiss/German/whatever law.
- 2 The name is public all over the internet and on social media. The original X thread has been viewed more than 1.4 million times, the re-post also 1 million times. There are thousands of retweets and comments, only under the original posting. There are thousands more on the various news websites and re-ports. Several Jewish/Israeli organizations have re-posted the case on their social media accounts, with thousands of more comments, all including the name of Richard Waygood. His name has several auto-completes on Google, depending on location for example: "las vegas", "vertex", "pharma", "nazi". Taking into consideration all of this, his name is public information.
- 3 There is no data privacy, as he (Richard Waygood) has posted the photo himself on social media, see here in the Blick article:
- Quote (German): "Das Foto stellte er anschliessend in die sozialen Medien."
- Translation: "He then posted the photo on social media."
- To be clear: He himself posted the photo under his name. If there has been any "data privacy", he relinquished it voluntarily.
- 4 We do not need to discuss any "private information" or any claims that are constantly being brought up by anonymous users. These information is irrelevant to Wikipedia, it has no sources, whereas all the information mentioned in the section about Waygood had multiple reliable sources. And we can be sure that the newspapers have checked and vetted the information before publishing it, and, as they are Swiss newspapers, also have given the accused person (Waygood) the chance to comment. Obviously, he didn't, otherwise they would have to use his statement in the article. But he obviously didn't even deny.
- Let's work together and make Wikipedia better - but let's stick to sources and facts! Thank you all for the productive discussion so far. MarcoMiller2 (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
- @MarcoMiller2: Thanks for the insights. This is still happening; I may take it to RFPP if it persists. Thriftycat Talk • Contribs 01:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- After page protection has ran out, the same vandalism is happening again. I'll request protection again. Markman222222222 (talk) 02:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ich finde es schon sehr relevant, dass dieser Pharma-Angestellte Richard Waygood aus Hünenberg ZG die Hakenkreuzarminde getragen hat und deshalb bei Vertex rausgeflogen ist. Ebenso relevant ist das Verhalten seiner Frau Anette Waygood-Weiner von Partners Group, die das Tragen der Hakenkreuzarminde laut Inside-Paradeplatz und Zentralplus zumindest gebilligt hat, weil es ja ein Foto gibt, auf dem sie auch drauf ist. Fragesteller1900 (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Falscher Ort: Zug, nicht Hünenberg!
- Hakenkreuz-Richard Waygood (Vertex Pharma) ist aus Zug/Baar, nicht aus Hünenberg. Lustig ist dass seine Frau Anette Waygood nun wieder unter dem Doppelnamen Anette Waygood-Weiner auftritt. Distanziert sie sich endlich von dem antisemitischen Verhalten ihres Mannes? Die arbeitet ja anscheinend bei Partners Group in Baar. Was sagt eigentlich diese Firma dazu? Zugerinsider (talk) 04:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Wird Zeit dass bei dem Hakenkreuz-Waygood aus Zug, Baar, Hünenberg oder sonschtwo endlich mal der SACK ZUGEMACHT WIRD! Ist ja ekelhaft. Was denkt sich der Typ?! Dass er mit so einem Nazigetue durchkommt? RivarDelph (talk) 08:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ich finde es schon sehr relevant, dass dieser Pharma-Angestellte Richard Waygood aus Hünenberg ZG die Hakenkreuzarminde getragen hat und deshalb bei Vertex rausgeflogen ist. Ebenso relevant ist das Verhalten seiner Frau Anette Waygood-Weiner von Partners Group, die das Tragen der Hakenkreuzarminde laut Inside-Paradeplatz und Zentralplus zumindest gebilligt hat, weil es ja ein Foto gibt, auf dem sie auch drauf ist. Fragesteller1900 (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- After page protection has ran out, the same vandalism is happening again. I'll request protection again. Markman222222222 (talk) 02:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- @MarcoMiller2: Thanks for the insights. This is still happening; I may take it to RFPP if it persists. Thriftycat Talk • Contribs 01:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding so-called "data privacy" which is constantly mentioned by the anonymous editors:
The proof for this organization's "unmasking" is their own tweet and this pretty basic website, which reproduces that tweet, so I'm thinking that all these SPIs (MarcoMiller2 and User:Markman222222222) might have something to do with the organization. (I would like to congratulate Markman on his extraordinary quick learning process.) Besides that, NOTNEWS applies. Drmies (talk) 02:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks for this. Thriftycat Talk • Contribs 00:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Use as a reliable Source for BLP?
editCan StopAntisemitism be used as a reliable source for the purpose of BLP?
Pro: Generally rely on other reliable sources, over 5 years old, no history of misinformation
Con: some degree of bias/political leaning FortunateSons (talk) 21:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- @FortunateSons: Since it's an advocacy organization, reliability would probably be on a case-by-case basis. If you have a question about a specific use case, you might want to ask at WP:RSN. Thriftycat Talk • Contribs 22:34, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, I will FortunateSons (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- Based on their aboutpage, I wouldn't. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
Liora Rez doxxing and harassing people for protesting Israel's genocide of Palestinians
editIt seems that the page, aside from conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism, omits Liora Rez doxxing numerous people on her official StopAntisemitism account for protesting Israel's genocide of Palestinians. The account has done this numerous times, claiming that protesting Israel's actions is antisemitic, and has engaged in making racist remarks. Why aren't these controversies on the page? Lobsel Vith (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- What WP:BLP-good WP:RS do you have that can be used, and what article content do you suggest adding based on them? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Naming targets of StopAntisemitism
editI don't think one or two news articles that mention them in passing are sufficient to include the names of specific living individuals who were targeted by StopAntisemitism here; some of them fall under WP:BLP1E and WP:AVOIDVICTIM, and either way there simply isn't enough encyclopedic significance to their specific names in this article to override that and justify inclusion. --Aquillion (talk) 02:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- I removed the specific people's names. I do think it is still important to include the actual examples and not just say "anti-Israel activity," though. It's important context. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 13:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Only a single source seems to include those quotes, though. I'm concerned that it might fall afoul of the WP:QUOTEFARM warning that
quotations embody the breezy, emotive style common in fiction and some journalism, which is generally not suited to encyclopedic writing
; beyond that, your insistence that a quote highlighted in a single source gives me pause, because it feels like you're trying to add them in order to make an argument that they deserved to be targeted or to justify StopAntisemitism's actions, which is misusing the source (it certainly does not present them that way.) If these are really as important and central as you claim, then multiple other sources should mention them, surely? Otherwise, why pull those particular quotes out of the piece and not eg.a high school basketball coach who wore a shirt with a watermelon, a symbol of solidarity with the Palestinian cause, to a game
orMarzouca, who lives in Los Angeles and uses they/them pronouns, said StopAntisemitism’s X post triggered a stream of threats. People emailed Marzouca saying they deserved to be sent to Gaza to die and criticizing their appearance, with one person calling them a “disgusting, manipulative rat”
- something the source gives equal weight in terms of context. More broadly, we determine what's important context based on coverage; a few quotes pulled from a single source that was using them in a different way doesn't really meet that standard. --Aquillion (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Only a single source seems to include those quotes, though. I'm concerned that it might fall afoul of the WP:QUOTEFARM warning that
- Aquillion You should @ me. Otherwise you're talking into the abyss. The whole point of the article is that both sides disagree whether it is anti-Israel or antisemitic. By showing the actual quotes it let's users see the specific conduct and decide what the conduct falls into. It's ambiguous - otherwise there wouldn't be an WaPo article on this. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 20:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- The organization's twitter account doxxed someone simply for wearing a Palestine pin. https://twitter.com/stopantisemites/status/1809617629394374904?s=46 Lobsel Vith (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The organization is targeting people for wearing Palestine pins and trying to get them fired: https://twitter.com/stopantisemites/status/1810842679523115333?s=46 Lobsel Vith (talk) 18:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is also Liora Rez tweeting a variant of the 'N word please' phrase: https://twitter.com/arhu_m/status/1742023279123284035?s=46 in response to politician Ilhan Omar tweeting a quote: "If your freedom relies on my oppression, then neither of us are free." Lobsel Vith (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- We need secondary sources to establish DUE and even then it's not clear we should include these EvergreenFir (talk) 18:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Lobsel Vith you need secondary sources, not tweets. Please revert yourself EvergreenFir (talk) 19:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is also Liora Rez tweeting a variant of the 'N word please' phrase: https://twitter.com/arhu_m/status/1742023279123284035?s=46 in response to politician Ilhan Omar tweeting a quote: "If your freedom relies on my oppression, then neither of us are free." Lobsel Vith (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The organization is targeting people for wearing Palestine pins and trying to get them fired: https://twitter.com/stopantisemites/status/1810842679523115333?s=46 Lobsel Vith (talk) 18:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Does CT apply to this page?
editI think there is a lot of overlap between this article and WP:ARBPIA. I actually did a cursory search and this site seems to take positions a little more on the I-P conflict. I tried finding sources as well; there is this Washington Post article from recently, as well as this press release that is reposted on Yahoo, Business Insider, etc. I think this question may be better suited for WP:AE but I am not sure.
In any case I think the intro needs reworking. The WashPost article I linked to ties the organization to Adam and Gila Milstein Family Foundation; we do need to find more sources for this or, failing that, drop the "focused on combating antisemitism" part because that needs WP:V.
I also did searches for Liora Rez, one of the BLPs associated with this, and aside from the Washington Post article, found this Fox News piece rebutting that. But we already have kind of established WP:FOXNEWS so it should be used with caution. Awesome Aasim 23:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I strongly agree that the intro needs to be rewritten. There appears to be no sourcing behind categorizing StopAntisemitism as a "non-profit organization" or even that Liora Rez is the organization's founder beyond statements Rez, herself, has made to various media sources. It is abundantly clear, based on the Washington Post article you cited, that StopAntisemitism operates under a fiscal sponsorship and that Rez is a direct employee of the sponsoring entity. I'd be fine with you stating that as fact based just on the Post reporter's research, but, even if you don't feel confident that the article serves as sufficient basis to do so, it still serves as sufficient basis to remove the description of StopAntisemitism as a "non-profit organization" or at least notate that said description is disputed and poorly sourced. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 08:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- The entire intro should be rewritten (and avoid using StopAntisemitism itself as a source.) If nothing else, one obvious glaring problem is that it describes the organization as
A proponent of new antisemitism
, which is wrong no matter what perspective you take - the intent is probably to say that they're a proponent of the definition of new antisemitism rather than promoting antisemitism themselves, but we lack a source that could be used to reword it properly. EDIT: I took a rough stab at rewriting it. YNET, whose coverage could reasonably be described as sympathetic, describes them as an advocacy org and just notes that they're privately funded, so I went with that and summarized what seemed to be the main points of the rest of our sources. That said, I think it's fine to describe Rez as the CEO based on coverage in eg. YNET and such - we can assume they verified basic things like whether she was actually the CEO! --Aquillion (talk) 22:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)- I'd caution against describing Rez as a CEO ("spokesperson" might be more appropriate). The title chief executive officer suggests a formal corporate structure, and, based on the Washington Post piece previously discussed, there is no formal corporate structure. The organization is a sponsored entity, which means, for legal purposes, it doesn't exist independent of the organization sponsoring it.
- Additionally, Rez was billed as the "executive director" of the organization when she appeared at a Jan. 11, 2024 congressional hearing, which would be a term more consistent with the leader of a non-profit entity (although, if there is no formal StopAntisemitism board of directors, I would suggest the possibility that "executive director" is either a completely fabricated title or is being used in an extremely informal way by Rez and her employers).
- Regarding YNET, I think you're giving the staff members who wrote and edited the article a little too much credit as fact checkers. I agree that the cited piece could politely be described as "sympathetic" to Rez and her organization (to be less polite, I'd call it promotional), and I find it difficult to believe that they actually saw verifiable proof that "CEO" is her official title and didn't just casually use it as a generic term for the head of an organization.
- At bare minimum, I would change all references to Rez as "CEO" to "executive director" (although, again, I think either title misleadingly implies that StopAntisemitism is an independently run organization). DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 05:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- The entire intro should be rewritten (and avoid using StopAntisemitism itself as a source.) If nothing else, one obvious glaring problem is that it describes the organization as
The article has become biased in favor of the organization
editEdits made since 19 July by Steven1991 have made the article more biased. I was considering reverting the changes, but I didn't want to do it without discussion, and I don't feel like getting in an edit war with him. Zartog1022 (talk) 05:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please state your objections here, instead of "considering", especially if do not want edit war. - Altenmann >talk 02:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you have sources with criticism, let us discuss them. - Altenmann >talk 02:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. I removed some self-flattery. - Altenmann >talk 03:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Original research
editI accidentally came to this page, added some info, put it on my watchlist, after noticing signioficant activity I took a closer look at the article and noticed several pieces of original research, some of which I removed or tagged. If someone questions m=y removals, I am happy to explain in detail more just edit summary. - Altenmann >talk 02:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Notably:
- I removed "The group is considered by some as pro-Israel due to its..." I dont see sources, not to say WP:WEASEL "by some".- Altenmann >talk 02:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The group has been subject to criticisms ... "its adoption of the IHRA's working definition of antisemitism, which classifies anti-Zionism as antisemitic" - I removed the refbombing and tagged as {cn} because the refs were not about the criticism of the organization, but about the definitions of antisemitism, i.e., the corresponding text is WP:SYNTH. I did not remove it completely, just tagged, because I may reasonably assume that such criticsm does exist. - Altenmann >talk 02:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
The Washington Post
editI reverted the edit which added epithet "controversial":
- A controversial article by The Washington Post...
We do not add judgemental epithets into articles in wikipedia voice. On the other hand I did find this article controversial myself. If there are sources that dispute claims of Washington Post, we can consider them, preferably in the talk page here first (we do not want to replicate bickering in the media into Wikipedia, so we need to discuss what to do).- Altenmann >talk 00:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Regarding this revert - this piece is of marginal relevance: no third-party sources describe that StopAntisemitism was instrumental in the Columbia University case; the statement "the organization has followed up progressively" has no encyclopedic merit. - - Altenmann >talk 02:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Once again, the disputed text does not coming from independent source that describes the activity of an organization. For comparison: Washington Post every day covers noitable events, but our article about the newspaper does not list how the newspaper covered this and that event. Our article includes what other sources write about WP and which work of it was notable. Just the same, we do not write about each and every law produces by the state. Only notable ones identified by other sources as notable. In the context STopAntis, its "Antisemite of the Year" or Antisemite of the Week being covered by any other sources.
Now, please explain, which other sources covered the involvement of StopAntis in the Columbia University case? In particular, which sources describe that the organization was instrumental in the mentioned resignations? - Altenmann >talk 05:53, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- By "Activities", we talk about what the organization does just as the "Antisemites of the Year" elections which are not extensively covered or or given significance by mainstream media outlets. Why do you allow the ordered-by-year "Antisemites of the Year" information to be input but not the Columbia University-associated ones for which I provided sources with regard to the organization's active coverage/involvement? Steven1991 (talk) 12:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- About AotY: In Wikipedia policies we do not operate with the term "mainstream", we use the concept "reliable sources independent of the article subject". About Columbia, you did not answer my questions related it. Your answer may convince me that I was wrong. Therefore please answer them without further sidetracking. - Altenmann >talk 19:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- And of course, if there is a motive on the part of anyone to somehow dictate the narrative – just as many others on this encyclopedia have been attempting – no "improvement" in the relevant content contributed by me would be deemed satisfactory. Steven1991 (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Wikipedia the narrative is "dictated" by Wikipedia policies. I explained the reasons of my edits in this and two preceding sections in this talk page. Of course people are not perfect and may err and disagree. For this we have a procedure of WP:Dispute resolution. - Altenmann >talk 19:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I take it, you are not yet well familiar with wikipedia policies, and I don't blame you: they are rather arcane. Therefor please let me explain that questioning motives of Wikipedians is generally a bad practice. Please read the policies: WP:Assume good faith and WP:No personal attacks (in a nutshell: Comment on content, not the contributors). If you have serious reasons to believe that some editor harms Wikipedia, we have administrator's message board WP:AN/I, where you can state your complaints (with proofs of misbehavior) - Altenmann >talk 19:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
"relevant content"
-- I am questioning precisely the relevance and the encyclopedicity of your recent contribution, and my (unanswered) questions about Columbia is aimed at the clarification of relevance. - Altenmann >talk 19:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)