Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Incivility helpEdit

There is a lengthy discussion that has persisted on talk:DC Extended Universe. Editor @Darkknight2149: has recently decided to start accusing users that disagree with them of WP:SOCKpuppetry as well as WP:BLUDGEONing. They may or may not bring such accusations in another thread, but the user continues to contradict themselves simply to further along their proposed argument. Trying to be collaborative and civil with them is not working. Can we get some assistance, please? Thank you.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:46, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

You were warned about bludgeoning because, even as the discussion was winding down and we were waiting for others to comment, you kept replying over and over to every single comment (often with two comments at a time) restating your position. As the discussion died down, you were told by both me and TheJoebro64 that there's no reason to keep going in circles and we need to allow others to comment, and you still kept trying to burying the thread with your replies because the discussion wasn't going your way. As soon as Joebro mentioned something about an RfC and I stated that I was about to open a fourth Arbitrary Break to wrap up the discussion and gather final comments/votes, you immediately rushed to open an Abitrary Break yourself [1], [2], [3] [4] just to restate your position (for the umpteenth time) and rant about how "But consensus is not based off of votes!!!"
Then, almost immediately after you opened the Arbritary Break, Popfox3 shows up to the discussion and becomes the only user to strongly support you in that entire thread. This user only has six edits to their account. [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] and they're all recent. Every single one of the accounts edits are at Talk:DC Extended Universe, taking the same position as DisneyMetalhead in discussions. The only two exceptions were from yesterday, when the account came to defend DMH and then added a space [11], [12] to their username and talk page, to create those pages and get rid of the redlink (in order to look less suspicious).
@DisneyMetalhead: Not only were you guilty of WP:BLUDGEON and opened an ANI report as soon as you were warned to stop, but give us one good reason why we shouldn't open a WP:SPI. Your only defense so far for bludgeoning has been "just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm bludgeoning", which immediately falls apart under scrutiny. DarkKnight2149 18:49, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
As if that wasn't evidence enough of WP:SOCKing, DisneyMetalhead's account was registered in September 2016 [13]. Popfox3 was registered only a month later in October 2016 [14]. So far, Popfox's only defense has been "actually I'm not a sock because my account was registered in 2016 and I simply didn't use it until recently." [15] In other words, "I didn't use my account until I needed to support DisneyMetalhead at Talk:DC Extended Universe discussions." DarkKnight2149 19:04, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
While that does appear suspicious, you need to be clear, DK - are you stating, without equivocation, that DMh and Popfox3 are the same user? If so, you need to come out and call for a SPI investigation and file the report. I get how, if it is true, it is infuriating (I've had the same accusation made about me as well, and it is a stain that - if not specifically debunked - remains forever), but you cannot even make the accusation as part of an argument without having created an SPI report. As upset as you might be at DMh, tainting their reputation is completely unwarranted without a truckload of proof. Submit the report, await the results and frame your argument accordingly. Not before. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:28, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
@Jack Sebastian: It is not just DisneyMetalhead's reputation that is being tainted. I finally have time to attempt to contribute, and I immediately have accusations hurled at me and a potential investigation into my account, all because I agreed with a user in a discussion. I am NOT a sock puppet, and it is infuriating and humiliating that I have to go through this and have my reputation tainted before I even really do anything. I actually welcome an investigation if that's what it'll take to get Darknight2149 to stop. This is ridiculous. Popfox3 (talk) 19:52, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
@Jack Sebastian: I understand that, throughout the discussion, you have tried to be the middle man of the discussion who has tried to find a middle ground between everyone involved. However, there is no middle ground here. DisneyMetalhead's behaviour fits the exact parameters of WP:BLUDGEON. My point is that there is overwhelming evidence that Popfox3 is a sock puppet of DisneyMetalhead. I'm waiting for administrator feedback first, but I probably am going to have to open a WP:SPI at some point today. I'm not clairvoyant, but from what I can see, this more than warrants a checkuser. DarkKnight2149 19:34, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
In the meantime, I would strongly recommend that DisneyMetalhead stop reply-spamming at Talk:DC Extended Universe, and give others a chance to comment. For the moment, unless someone addresses me or something I said, I will be doing the same. DarkKnight2149 19:37, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Popfox3 - I am not going to reply directly to your comments as, at best, you are an SPA, and not really worthy of comment. At worst you are a sock, and I literally will not waste any further time (apart from this single comment) to interact with you until you either build a more diverse set of edits and an SPI comes back as unrelated. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:39, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Darkknight2149 I myself have been accused of BLUDGEON (even before the term came into fashion); it comes from being young and unwilling to consider other viewpoints; a person doing so is absolutely convinced that the other editors suffer from anterograde amnesia and won't remember the previous comments make. Its rather disrespectful and I cringe at the fact that I used to be that way.
Understand that DMh is likely young and needs a bit more marinating in the Stew of Life before being taken seriously. If they are socking, they deserve every single awful thing that Wikipedia can do to them (please forgive my draconian view on this, but it will not be softening or changing - socks deserve the Swift Sword of Icky Death, imo). I would have suggested on their talk page that they give other the chance to respond before addressing the comments en toto and not piecemeal. If that failed to work, get an RfC; don't wait for it, just start one. Lots of eyes will come to the page and if DMh keeps doing that, their comments will likely boomerang back onto themselves.
I think an ANI is bit much (as you skipped a step), unless you are seeking help on how to correct the problem. If you came here seeking punishment for DMh and Popfox3, you've done this incorrectly. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:39, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
@Jack Sebastian: I didn't skip a step. I actually did leave DisneyMetalHead a message asking for them to cool it down, and they retaliated by filing this report. I didn't file it. This is a WP:BOOMERANG scenario.
To be honest, I don't buy Popfox3's story at all. When I was a newbie, I didn't even understand what a talk page was or the discussion process until a few weeks or so in. Yet his/her supposed first (and only) order of business is to only reply to Talk:DC Extended Universe discussions? And they happen to take all of the same positions as DisneyMetalHead? And they happened to show up to the thread just as DMH was growing more and more desperate and overzealous, and the thread was seemingly leading to a close or a RFC? And as soon as they supported DMH, they created a blank userpage and talk page to get rid of the redlink and make their lack of activity less obvious? And their account was created just a month after DisneyMetalHead's? Yeah, everything about this smells fishy. I already have a WP:SPI tab open. I will alert this thread when the report is filed. DarkKnight2149 20:55, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate you you following the necessary steps, Darkknight2149 dotting your 'i's' and crossing your 't's'. Maybe hold off on talking any more about your suspicions regarding the connections between DMh ad Popfox3 until after the SPI. The ANI is to deal with tendentious editing behavior or personal attacks, which DMh correctly did; accusing them of being part of a socking is a PA unless proven, as the lack of AGF is apparent. Others will offer far more wise advice than I. I am suggesting you don't make any further comments regarding the SPI until it is complete. Focus on what you feel is DMh's disruptive editing behaviors as you see them, because I can guarantee that the user is doing the same here.
The hardest lesson I had to learn in Wikipedia is that trying to verbally annihilate another user in an edit summary or in talk is counterproductive; how can you even wrap your head around working with someone like that ever again, hating them that much? The short answer is that you cannot. You have to just walk away for a while and let them dig a big enough hole for themselves, jump in and start throwing dirt on themselves. You can sit by the side an eat popcorn or whatever. Just stay above their personal implosion. The point is that you point out a problem, and allow the larger contingent of very smart people here figure out how to resolve that problem. Anyone is prone to mistakes, but not a larger group of thinkers, like you see in Wikipedia. Give the system a chance to work. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I have used and browsed Wikipedia for a very long time. Long before I made my account and after I forgot about it for several years. I always viewed the talk pages for articles that I was interested in to see the kinds of discussions that were taking place and how decisions were made for edits. When I noticed that New Gods had been removed from the In-Development section on the DCEU page and that there was an active discussion on the talk page that I desired to contribute to, I attempted to create a new account and in so doing discovered my old one. It wasn't too hard to Google how to edit on the Talk pages. I have been very busy recently and only had time to contribute to the ongoing discussion on the page status yesterday. Everything that you are pointing out is purely coincidental, and I'm glad that you are filing an SPI report because I look forward to being vindicated! Popfox3 (talk) 21:13, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
User:Darkknight2149 your vehement beliefs that User:Popfox3 is me through WP:SockPuppetry is humorous. File your WP:SPI and you'll just come to find that you were wrong. I'll wait patiently for your apology. User:Jack Sebastian, I awarded you on your page for being a mediator throughout the discussion and for trying to stay neutral. I've appreciated those things. I would point out that your response to Popfox3 is not the most welcoming comment to a recently registered editor, but your opinions are your own. It's unfortunate that Darkknight2149's behavior requires admin input. I will continue to provide input (with their reliable sources) in any discussion that I'm a part of. Regardless of whether DK2149 likes it or not.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:43, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) "It's unfortunate that Darkknight2149's behavior requires admin input." You mean asking you to stop WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion, or alerting the discussion to the indisputable suspiciousness of the Popfox3 situation? (I have around 10 notifications from you just from the last few days alone...) I'd say at least of those certainly requires administrator input. It just might not be the administrator input you want. The SPI will sort that out regardless, so there's no reason for me to keep harping on it here.
I hope you and Popfox3 aren't bluffing, because if this turns out to be a coincidence and Popfox3 really is just a single-purpose account, that's one heck of a coincidence (or rather, multiple coincidences at once). So far, two other users have backed up the suspiciousness of the situation, so I'm not sure what result you're expecting by filing this report. DarkKnight2149 23:00, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Respectfully, by their own admission, Popfox has been here for several years; they aren't a "recently registered user". I have little respect for SPAs and far less respect if they are indeed a sock account. As per BEANS, I'm not going to point out why Popfox3 is a red flag. I am giving them the consideration of not bothering to talk to them until the conclusion of the SPI.
As well, you should hold off on commenting after every. single. comment. in a discussion. People are not stupid. Given folk a chance to compare your clearly stated view with others. No one is going to assume that you have magically dropped your objections if you don't say anything for a day or two. Let others weigh in. That is the advice I would give you on preventing friction in the discussion. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:52, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Comment: As stated before, I will continue to wait for the apology. Funny thing is, there's one editor here who is jumping to conclusions and "pointing fingers" - and it's not me. Meanwhile I remain calm, and simply would like some assistance from an admin with the entire discussion. I have continued to respond to comments/placed input/and added new sources to the discussion at Talk:DC Extended Universe. Though accused of WP:BLUDGEONing, that has not been my intention. I have simply attempted to respond to statements, and contribute to the article with reliable sources. As a sidenote: any and all users - whether non-ANNON/new/old/etc, can constructively contribute to articles. No one should discourage them anyhow. @Jack Sebastian: I'll be hot-tubbing in your Stew of Life with the Swift Sword of Icky Death, waiting for the WP:ANI to prove that User:Popfox3 is not associate with me at all **emphasis on humor intended**. I wonder however, what you think of the recent sources in the discussion - since you contributed to the discussion earlier. Cheers m8s!--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
My attention has been drawn elsewhere, DisneyMetalhead. I think that others can get involved in the discussion. I made my opinion known and that should be enough. I am sorry of you took offense at the 'Stew of Life' comment; I see a lot of how I used to act in your behavior, and I am not trying to shame you into being better, but I think its fair to say that the vibe you are putting out there is not having a positive effect on other editors. You don't need to respond to every comment. You just don't. Sit back and let the collaborative discussion happen without you having to reiterate your points (unless directly challenged or asked). There is no hurry. And I've said about Popfox3 all I am going to until the result of the SPI.
Darkknight2149, please include a link to the SPI request, for the purposes of discussion. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:13, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
@Jack Sebastian: Sorry for the slight wait. It will be up soon. DarkKnight2149 03:17, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Jack Sebastian The Stew of Life comment I just made, was meant to be funny. To clarify I did not take offense, and I believe that some of my comments are being read/taken in a sinister/argumentative nature when they are not intended to be. I appreciate your candor and your peace-keeping angle throughout the discussion. I have no ill-will towards anyone on WP, and simply am trying to preserve the integrity of an article. I know that I don't have to response to every comment, but when I am the sole input out of 3 editors, stating why I disagree with the notion (up until @Popfox3: that is) - I was merely attempting to provide all the resources that support my argument. I will wait for that SPI 'investigation' to be over with, and I hope at that point there are some apologies that go around. Cheers!--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:31, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Continued bludgeoning from DisneyMetalheadEdit

The SPI hasn't even filed yet and DisneyMetalhead is continuing to WP:BLUDGEON the discussion [16]. Both myself and Jack Sebastian have warned them about it at this point, and advised them to drop the stick and wait for others to comment. Even when the consensus is stacked against them and when everyone has explained why repeatedly, DMH insists on replying to every single comment to aggressively hammer the point in some more. I guess DMH thought that by filing a retaliatory report and spinning it as an incivility report (all because of this message and this notice, by the way), they would get some kind of "get out of jail free" card to continue exactly what they have been doing. I have well over 20 notifications from DisneyMetalhead from the last few days alone, and they're all from the same discussion at Talk:DC Extended Universe. DarkKnight2149 07:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

User:DK2149; your anger is evident on each thread. However, an ongoing discussion that has not reached remotely any consensus, can/should/will be continued with new and updated sources. There was no WP:BLUDGEONing in a message that was my attempts to ping various/additional users who have contributed to the article. I have not replied to "every single comment" nor has there been any "agress[ion]". If you choose to read my comments as such, that's entirely in your error. My attempts here are to preserve and article. I've already stated why I submitted this request to admins. It has nothing to do with the reasoning you just said. In the meantime, @Popfox3: and I are still waiting for you to file your SPI...--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:10, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
No one here is "angry" and WP:BLUDGEON is defined as "Bludgeoning is when a user dominates the conversation in order to persuade others to their point of view. It is typically seen at Articles for Deletion, Request for Comment, WP:ANI, an article talk page or even another user's talk page. Typically, the person replies to almost every "!vote" or comment, arguing against that particular person's point of view. The person attempts to pick apart each argument with the goal of getting each person to change their "!vote". They always have to have the last word and normally will ignore any evidence that is counter to their point of view." You have absolutely been doing this in spades. There also has been a consensus so far, which you are trying to change by replying constantly with the same arguments over and over, while also trying to argue why the standing consensus isn't valid because you don't like it. Every time you have provided "sources", they have either failed to justify your point or failed to contradict the majority viewpoint in the discussion (for the same reasons explained repeatedly). Your more recent sources are no exception.
The discussion is going in a literal merry-go-round. And as the thread died down and as soon as opening a RFC or wrapping the thread up by taking final comments/votes was mentioned, you immediately jumped in with a new section just to espouse all of the same points all over again and create excuses for why the consensus isn't a consensus. Everyone there understands your position perfectly well. Trying to burying the thread in comments (often at least two comments at once) to try and get your point across is highly disruptive. We get it. Until other users have had a chance to comment, you need to drop the stick and lay off the discussion. As previously mentioned, I have well over 20 notifications from you just from the last few days alone, all from the same discussion. Do I need to post a screenshot? DarkKnight2149 19:49, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Sock puppet investigationEdit

The sock puppet investigation has been filed.

DarkKnight2149 21:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

To note, the users have been found unrelated by a check user. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 23:58, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
It should be noted (and I myself pointed it out at the SPI even before the CU was requested) that this could be a likely outcome of any CU as it seems that different IP addresses would be in use for each account in purpose to avoid detection, as per DisneyMetalhead's own acknowledgement that they knew Popfox3's IP address was "nowhere near mine" (sic) despite WP:WIA barring any user sort of a Checkuser from knowing such details, and their repeated taunts for a SPI to be filled – they simply knew any CU wouldn't work. Impru20talk 00:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
I have also left an inquiry for Bbb23 on this topic. The evidence tells me that there is too much here for this to be a coincidence. The fact that others were able to dig up even more damning evidence of a connection (such as DisneyMetalhead being telepathically aware of Popfox's IP address) means that this has to be a WP:MEAT situation at the very least. DarkKnight2149 00:47, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree. Prefall just noted they've gotten away with socking while logged out in the past, so I have a hard time believing that there's genuinely no connection between DMH and Popfox. JOEBRO64 00:57, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
All that I can say is that I do not know DisneyMetalhead and was actually taken aback by their IP Address comment because I wouldn't even know how to go about checking that (and from what I am gathering, is in fact impossible without Check User privileges). I took the same position as them in a discussion, it is as simple as that. All the "evidence" used to attempt to prove otherwise is completely coincidental, and nothing more. Popfox3 (talk) 00:59, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Looks like even more evidence is unravelling about DisneyMetalhead having possibly behaved similarly in the past, this time while logged out ([17]). This would correlate to them having acknowledged themselves in a past discussion on 24 January that "I have made various articles and edits over years and various usernames" (sic). Aside of the presented evidence, any claim of editing with alternative accounts would forcefully require them identifying as such on their user page—or not trying to actively deceive other editors in the case of editing while logged out—which does not seem to be the case here. Impru20talk 01:01, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
@Popfox3: You were "taken aback" by DisneyMetalhead's IP address comment at 17:33, 8 February 2020, yet still said nothing about it until now, came to this ANI thread in their defense at 19:52, 8 February 2020 without making any mention at such circumstance and even replied by thanking them for their "kindness", "courtesy" and "warm welcome" at 05:22, 9 February 2020? I would surely not be "looking forward to work" nor would be so excited with someone with whom I am "taken aback" because they somehow know about my IP address. Seems odd to say the least. Impru20talk 01:17, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Of course I would defend and be excited to work with Disneymetalhead, because they are the one user who have attempted to make me feel welcome at Wikipedia. Try looking at it from my point of view. I contribute to a discussion and am immediately attacked and accused of being a sock puppet account. Multiple times in this ANI thread I have endured personal attacks against the credibility of my account and explanation for the coincidences and was told by one user that I was not even worth talking to, and this was well before an SPI was even officially filed. So forgive me for being willing to defend the ONE user who has been willing to defend me and attempt to make me feel welcome as an editor at Wikipedia. Popfox3 (talk) 02:24, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I would like to clarify, that in my comment regarding IP addresses - I have no idea how these SockPuppetry investigations go. I would have imagined that there was a way to look at IP addresses. I, in no way, actually know @Popfox3:'s IP. Nor do I understand how the whole processes go. Needless to say, I am in no way tech-savvy. Furthermore my statement "I have made various articles and edits over years and various usernames" (sic) is in regards to years ago when I had a different profile. The username was deleted, and I left Wikipedia for some time. A similar occasion happened shortly thereafter, before I registered my current username and have since stuck to it. I do not concurrently use multiple log-ins, as has been insinuated (and as my previous statement can be interpreted to mean). --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 01:29, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Then how do you explain this? Moreover, why did you claim that Popfox's IP address is "nowhere near" yours? I'm not alone when I say this - None of this adds up. DarkKnight2149 01:40, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
How do I explain what exactly? I just stated that I don't know the user known as Popfox3. Assume WP:GOODFAITH, and understand that I misspoke - stating how I thought it would be proved...through IPs. I stated that they are nowhere near me - because they aren't me. Cheers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
If they're not you, then how would you know where their IP address is? That's a very specific way of putting it. But back to my first question, how do you explain the strong evidence of socking between you and (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) presented by Prefall at the SPI? This wasn't a simple case of logged out editing, because you directly interacted with the IP as if it were a separate user. Also worth mentioning, Popfox3 made their first non-DC Extended Universe edits today by making some edits at Harry Potter articles and joining the Harry Potter Task Force, and even that is a topic area that you have been known to edit in the past [18], [19], [20]. As others have pointed out, checkusers can detect proxies and VPNs, but they can't necessarily detect if you are using a long distance IP from another computer or instances of WP:MEAT. DarkKnight2149 04:07, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
DisneyMetalhead, would you care linking to your previous account(s)? The account isn't deleted, as it's impossible to delete an account. JOEBRO64 12:31, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I was going to comment about this. DisneyMetalhead claims he had "a different profile" (singular) years ago and that "the username" (singular again) was then "deleted"; however, Wikipedia profiles can't be deleted as per WP:FAQ and WP:UNC. Further, they relate to just one previous account here despite having previously referred to "various usernames" on 24 January and claiming in their own userpage that they "have been for years as an unregistered editor, and previously other editing profiles that were since abandoned/unregistered". On this, it is remarkable that their userpage initially claimed, in March 2017, that they "have been for years under an unregistered editor name" only. It was not until June 2019 that they made mention to "other editing profiles". And they edited it again to add the "that were since abandoned/unregistered" bit at 01:51, 10 February 2020, this is, in response to my comment earlier at 01:02 where I pointed out that they had previously claimed having had several usernames.
If DisneyMetalhead did use other accounts in the past, which do obviously still exist because they can't be unregistered or deleted, their identity must be disclosed. We can't have an user apparently having undisclosed sleeper accounts around here, as that's a potential hotbed for socking and even block evasion.
On the IP issue, the concern is not that DisneyMetalhead claimed having a different IP than Popfox3 (that would be obvious if they are different people). The issue is that they claimed that Popfox3's IP was "nowhere near mine". You can't know where a IP range originates from without knowing such an IP address beforehand, thus being impossible to determine whether it is near or far from your own.
It's also becoming very obvious that Popfox3 is only commenting in places where DisneyMetalhead is present. Indeed, their user talkpage discussions are becoming a near-insult at pretending they are different people. The way the two accounts are engaging to each other is not natural at all (Further, it wasn't DisneyMetalhead who opened this ANI thread? One would think they know nothing about it from this comment.... This has gone beyond WP:BOOMERANG already). Impru20talk 14:23, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
We definitely need to get some admin involvement. I think it's safe to say there's definitely something fishy going on here. JOEBRO64 21:27, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Users: Impru20 and TheJoebro64 - an admin reviewed the case and closed it. I misspoke in the past when I said that I had various users. What happened in the past is that for years I made edits on Wikipedia without having a registered login. That was my choice. When I registered a user, it was in the early days of my edits. It was my impression that the old user was done away with.... unless I'm mistaken. I will look up my old username. Regardless of this past mistake, I have only ever used my current log-in/user since creating it. As for my comments on @Popfox3:'s page - I am free to congratulate them on the ending of this ridiculous witch hunt. I changed my user page to reflect what I had originally meant when posting the comment that IMPRU is referring to. I have re-stated and clarified what I have meant by each comment. I stand by my clarifications.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:56, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Question: Honest question (this may perhaps show my lack of tech-savviness)... how do I look at when an article was created? There was one article created with my previous editor log-in.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:07, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Additionally, previously when I stated that I had used other 'log-ins' I was being ambiguous as to how many... and when I added that I did not know that it was not allowed to have multiple. That is why I have adjusted it to state what I had originally meant.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:09, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
DisneyMetalhead, you should just go into the article history and keep going back until you get to the earliest revision. JOEBRO64 23:23, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@DisneyMetalhead: If you inform us on what the article is, we can find it for you. DarkKnight2149 07:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: and @Darkknight2149: the only article created with a previous log-in was an article about The Storm, the American rock band. However, as I previously stated that log-in has been abandoned/never used long ago. Reviewing the edit history however, I go to the oldest edit and I don't see the article being created. Perhaps I'm looking at this incorrectly(?). In all honesty I don't even remember the old username that was used (this was years ago).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Upon searching my old user-name, the page no longer exists... with some further digging, reviewing articles I have edited years ago, as well as talk-page discussions that I was involved with - I found an ANI regarding incivility allegations in 2016, with a discussion regarding some edits I had done years ago. They can be found at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive933 #User:Burningblue52.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:06, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
The account in question is Lorem ipsum5656 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), which is indefinitely blocked, and I'm not entirely sure why you didn't just retract the supposed legal threat (and become immediately unblocked) instead of creating a new account two weeks later. Eagles 24/7 (C) 23:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@Eagles247: the honest reason was that I thought it had been deleted/removed (I didn't know it could be unblocked). On top of that, the title of username had personal significance in my life at that time. After going through some traumatic marital experiences, I wanted a "clean slate"/fresh start and changed all my log-ins on various pages. In the meantime, my busy schedule did not allow for me to be constantly checking WP. I hope this shows that I have not used 'multiple user names' as I miss-stated on my talk page. I edited without a registered log-in for years, simply because I did not care to/have time to. When I made the user referenced above and upon being blocked (in addition to the personal life situations), I made a new log-in to start over. Those are the only user names I ever made/used. It was my understanding that the username was deleted/removed...I didn't know it could be unblocked at the time.

You are telling me you have been evading a block for four years? Wow.
That's not how WP:FRESHSTART works. It is explicit in that Any user who has active bans, blocks or sanctions imposed (including, but not limited to, those listed here); or is currently or about to be formally discussed for their conduct (such as at an administrative noticeboard or in an open case with the Arbitration Committee); or is attempting to evade scrutiny, may not have a clean start. You can't just create a new account because your previous one was indeffed, then claim it is a "clean start". That's anything but "clean". Impru20talk 00:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
On top of the apparent socking with IP addresses, this would blatantly and unambiguously fall under WP:Block evasion. DarkKnight2149 05:38, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Seemingly, their previous account did acknowledge already in September 2016 having been an editor "under various emails and usernames". Plus, under the DisneyMetalhead account they attempted to pose as if the two of them were two entirely different and unrelated editors (diff). Considering all presented evidence, it is very likely that this older account isn't the only one or even the first one being operated by this person. Impru20talk 12:44, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
I just remembered something. I thought this account sounded familiar, and it turns out, I have a history with Lorem ipsum5656. Lorem is actually Burningblue52 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), who actually had an extensive history of original research, WP:CIR, restoring edits reverted by multiple editors against consensus, and a whole list of other problems. Burningblue52 renamed their account right before they were blocked, and they weren't blocked for no reason. If Burningblue and DisneyMetalHead are the same user, that's definitely a major problem. DarkKnight2149 19:41, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Tagging Doug Weller, who blocked Lorem ipsum5656/Burningblue52 the first time. DarkKnight2149 19:45, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Well, this certainly answers a lot of questions I had. I'm absolutely stunned and saddened that DMH has been block evading for years now. I think we need to keep doing some digging to see if we can find any other potential sleepers/previously blocked accounts, as this is by no means a small issue. JOEBRO64 21:11, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
If DMH has been doing that, shouldn't they be blocked by this point? -- Rockstonetalk to me! 23:00, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
We're still waiting for an administrator response. DarkKnight2149 23:07, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Comment from TheJoebro64Edit

I was pinged here, and while I've had nightmares about getting tied up at ANI before, it was rightly so that this discussion was started. So, here's the gist...

DisneyMetalhead has a long history of disruptive editing and WP:OWNy behavior at the DC Extended Universe article. I'm not sure if this is a general problem with the user (although his talk page isn't too reassuring) or just happens at this specific article, but even so, it's been going on for a long time. To call DMH's behavior when it comes to the DCEU a pain in the ass is, to put it mildly, an understatement. Here's just one example:

In April 2018 DMH had a minor dispute with Prefall over whether the films Joker and Blackhawk should be in the article (the former had already been confirmed to be part of a separate franchise, while it wasn't clear when it came to Blackhawk). Prefall correctly noted that since it wasn't confirmed, it shouldn't be included. Then in June/July (you can see it all here) DMH waged a days-long edit war to include both, claiming that Updated studio information overrides all consensuses on here (which, to be accurate, was complete BS. Nothing had changed in the intervening months). Another discussion was opened showing extraordinarily strong consensus against DMH (and, if you look at the links I provided, you'll see that DMH continued to edit war even after the discussion was opened).

... then, in November, DMH adds Blackhawk again, using the same exact rationale, completely ignoring the consensus from three months prior. I reverted and a new discussion was opened to which there was no consensus since only DMH and I participated. DMH takes "no consensus" as "it's OK to add disputed material back in" and does so around Christmas, resulting in another discussion (in which they tried to play the victim because I accused him of ownership). Then it ended again...

Until January 2020, that is, when DMH adds it again using the exact same rationale as he did in 2018, even though there quite literally has been no news about the film since its announcement. Another discussion with a consensus against DMH is opened. Of course, they still didn't learn anything and, as Darkknight noted above, engaged in WP:BLUDGEONing.

And let me tell you, that's just one case of this. Just look at the talk page and its history. It's mind boggling. I knew it would eventually make it to some sort of noticeboard one of these days, I just didn't know when. There. I said it all. I'm at peace now. JOEBRO64 23:35, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Just so everyone is aware, this thread has been open for nearly 20 days and (despite unanimous consensus that block evasion and bludgeoning took place, and clear evidence of sleeper accounts) the case still hasn't received administrator attention. Not that there's any rush, but given the threat of a premature archive, someone might consider adding a DNAU template. DarkKnight2149 02:00, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Persistent disruption by Darkknight2149Edit

Darkknight2149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been causing persistent disruption at Articles for deletion. This "keep" vote in particular, in which they attack the nominator for three paragraphs, and drags me into it for some reason, is problematic.

TTN has been cleaning up topics about fictional elements on Wikipedia for the past several months by nominating several hundred of them for deletion via PROD and AFD. I compiled a list of his AFD nominations from November 2019 and found that he had a 97% “success” rate, meaning 97% of his nominations resulted in delete, merge, or redirect after discussion.

November 2019 TTN AFD nominations
  • Total nominated = 127
  • Delete = 88
  • Merge = 8
  • Redirect = 27
  • Keep = 4
  1. Places in The Dark Tower series
  2. World of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
  3. List of Hollyoaks locations
  4. Earldoms of Gwynedd (fictional)
  5. Crafthalls of Pern
  6. Locations in the Bionicle Saga
  7. Religions of the Discworld
  8. Guids of Ankh-Morpork
  9. Harper Hall
  10. List of locations in Artemis Fowl
  11. Locations of Shorthand Street
  12. Duchies of Gwynedd (fictional)
  13. Transformers: Generations
  14. Roadbuster
  15. Female Autobots
  16. List of boats in Arthur Ransome books
  17. Ahab (comics)
  18. Blithe (comics)
  19. Blight (comics)
  20. List of dimensions of the Discworld
  21. Transformers: Alternators
  22. Cancer (comics)
  23. Vishanti
  24. Adri Nital
  25. Action Pack (comics)
  26. Deities in the Elric series
  27. Karl Glogauer
  28. Gwynedd (fictional)
  29. Torenth (fictional) – also redirect
  30. Aura (comics)
  31. Grail (Wildstorm)
  32. Debbie Grayson
  33. Discworld gods
  34. Flora and fauna of the Discworld
  35. List of locations in Babylon 5
  36. Outstanding elements of Babylon 5
  37. List of Firefly planets and moons
  38. Planets of the Hainish Cycle
  39. Transformers: Robot Masters
  40. Pretenders (Transformers)
  41. Candlemaker (DC Comics)
  42. Cannon (Wildstorm)
  43. Mythology of Teen Wolf
  44. League of Super-Assassins
  45. Transformers Label series
  46. Exiles (Red Skull allies)
  47. Committee (comics)
  48. Creatures of Terabithia
  49. List of Redwall characters
  50. Nanny (comics)
  51. Cordelia Frost
  52. Bludgeon (Transformers)
  53. Darkwing (Transformers)
  54. Demolishor
  55. List of Primes and Matrix holders
  56. Flint (Wildstorm)
  57. Taboo (Wildstorm)
  58. Frostbite (Wildstorm)
  59. Spike Witwicky
  60. Wheeljack
  61. List of Beast Wars toys
  62. Double Dare (comics)
  63. Doctor Moon
  64. Deuce and Charger
  65. Crazy Sues
  66. Daily Globe (comics)
  67. Appellaxian
  68. Aquawoman
  69. Protector (Marvel Comics)
  70. NKVDemon
  71. Spacecraft in Red Dwarf
  72. List of Dune ships
  73. Gaius Cassius Longius (Rome character)
  74. Quintus Valerius Pompey
  75. Transformers: Robots in Disguise (toy line)
  76. Ironhide
  77. Norns (comics)
  78. Kid Commandos
  79. Cognoscenti (comics)
  80. Blacklight (MC2) – also redirect
  81. Stone (Marvel Comics)
  82. Googam
  83. Katherine Anne Summers
  84. Shiver Man
  85. Wildcard (comics)
  86. Plague (comics)
  87. List of planets in Marvel Comics
  88. Revolutionary (comics)
  1. Ankh-Morpork Assassins' Guild
  2. History Monks
  3. Cutthroat (comics)
  4. Izzy Cohen
  5. Ronald Reagan in fiction
  6. Glowworm (comics)
  7. Arm-Fall-Off-Boy
  8. Guillotine (character)
  1. Rumble (Transformers)
  2. Ramjet (Transformers)
  3. Sentinel Prime
  4. Black Mass (comics)
  5. Grail (DC Comics)
  6. Clown (comics)
  7. Nehwon
  8. Eleven Kingdoms
  9. Ace Morgan
  10. Dorian Hawkmoon
  11. Marcus Junius Brutus (Rome character)
  12. Servilia of the Junii
  13. Lord Conquest
  14. Captain Wonder (DC Comics)
  15. Chlorophyll Kid
  16. Foxglove (DC Comics)
  17. Octavia of the Julii
  18. Chaos Dwarfs (Warhammer)
  19. Optimus Primal
  20. Gnaeus Pompey Magnus (Rome character)
  21. Undead (Warhammer)
  22. Niobe of the Voreni
  23. Artemis (Marvel Comics)
  24. Redwing (Marvel Comics)
  25. Bagalia
  26. Jann of the Jungle
  27. Lucky the Pizza Dog
  1. Big Man (comics)
  2. Bi-Beast
  3. Umar (Marvel Comics)
  4. Goom

Darkknight2149 has been frustrated about these mass nominations, claiming TTN doesn't look into these topics before nominating them and that the !voters are either misguided or have an agenda.

There have been multiple instances of Darkknight2149 threatening to take TTN to ANI over these concerns, and seemingly using this threat to try to prevent TTN from nominating more pages for deletion:

  1. "If you continue your disruption, you will be reported."
  2. "When you continue on, do be surprised when you get hit with an ANI report. That's all there really is to say at this point."
  3. "I hope you understand that the incivility and WP:Casting aspersions alone is enough reason for me to file a report, let alone everything else."
  4. "I'm going to file a report within the next few days when I get the time/energy to do so."
  5. "In addition to what this IP said, I plan on filing an ANI report on TTN within the next few days, per the exchange here..."
  6. "Yes, I still plan on doing so (if you are referring to the TTN report)."
  7. "I actually plan on filing an WP:ANI report pretty soon in regard to the blind spammings that are currently taking place at WP:AFD; the user in question has displayed tendencies of WP:POINT, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:IDHT, and several others, and has been banned from fictional character deletion discussions for similar behaviours in the past"
  8. "A lot of it is the refusal to get the point and engage in dispute resolution by TTN and Piotrus, from which I plan filing an WP:ANI report over the weekend if they do not rectify their behaviour."
  9. "If they make no effort to open a larger community-wide discussion to address the concerns with fancruft, instead of disruptively and haphazardly spamming deletion nominations, I absolutely am filing an WP:ANI report this weekend."
  10. "The battleground mentality and inability to admit when you have a mistake is a major reason this is going to WP:ANI this weekend if no attempt is made to stop what you are doing and engage in dispute resolution."
  11. "Stop deletion spamming and open a legitimate discussion to propose your concerns, or this will soon become an WP:ANI / WP:ARBCOM matter. TTN and Piotrus have until this weekend."
  12. "If we can agree on these terms, I will step down from this dispute and recede the (very valid) WP:ANI report I was planning on filing."
  13. "You really are going to make us take this to ANI or ArbCom, aren't you?"

The main discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) can be found here, which expands on many editors' opinions on the matter, including TTN, Darkknight2149, and multiple administrators like me.

Other threads that have persistent hostility from this user:

  1. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Goblin_(Marvel_Comics)
  2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harley Quinn in other media

Other particularly disruptive/hostile diffs (edit: these are diffs that help show a pattern for this user's behavior, including but not limited to their interactions with TTN):

  1. Here
  2. Here
  3. Here
  4. Here

Recent AFDs in which Darkknight !votes by attacking TTN or other users for nominating many articles for deletion:

  1. Iron Maiden (comics)
  2. Harley Quinn in other media
  3. Judge Death
  4. Terrible Trio

Recent AFDs in which Darkknight !votes at AFD without providing a rationale:

  1. List of Marvel Comics dimensions
  2. Screwball (comics)
  3. Super Buddies
  4. Wonder Dog (Super Friends)

I am proposing a one-way interaction ban between Darkknight2149 and TTN, as well as a topic ban for Darkknight2149 at AFD. I have no issue with trying to argue in favor of keeping an article at AFD, but when your arguments are mainly attacking the nominator or ”just a !vote”, they aren't productive. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:00, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I understand that my focus on deletion over anything else and past history are contentious for many, but I'm not particularly sure how I earned such ire from them. Pretty much every interaction with them goes back to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Goblin (Marvel Comics), in which I think they formed Mount Everest from a grain of sand. Maybe a third party can tell me I'm wrong, but I think my position there was perfectly clear. I'd admit that our initial interactions weren't without a bit of venom from both sides, but I feel they should have long moved past it. TTN (talk) 15:23, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
If Darkknight2149 feels that he has a legitimate reason for a grievance about TTN then I feel he needs to address it, and lay out his case here and now. If not, then I agree it is long past time he let it go instead of continuing to make threats and doing nothing. I think discussion on an interaction ban and/or AFD topic ban should hold until after he has had a chance to respond, since depending on how he responds, his response may itself prompt a ban discussion. If he does not file a complaint at this time and is willing and able to let it go, then a ban is not needed. BOZ (talk) 16:10, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support one-way interaction ban between Darkknight2149 and TTN and topic ban at AFD as nom. It's clear from Darkknight2149's response below that they are not going to drop the stick anytime soon. Eagles 24/7 (C) 17:48, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support one-way interaction ban between Darkknight2149 and TTN and topic ban at AFD as per nom, but time-limited for 90 days. Not specific to Darkknight 2149 necessarily, but obviously including them based on the diffs presented by nom, there has been a pattern of intimidation, incivility, misinformed AfD !votes and threats against editors nominating comics and game-related topics for deletion. Though I initially suggested this should be time-limited to 90 days, on the basis of my perception that this was a transient issue, Darkknight's subsequent comments in this thread are indicative of a long-term fixation that will be unlikely to resolve in a set period of time. I think an indefinite IBAN/TBAN would, therefore, be in the best interest of the community. Chetsford (talk) 21:10, 12 February 2020 (UTC); edited 02:57, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBAN to stop Darkknight2149 from harassing TTN, and also support AfD topic ban. This editor doesn't seem able to disagree civilly with people over deletion discussions, and has obviously developed an extreme hatred for TTN. A 97% success rate indicates there actually isn't anything wrong with TTN's nominations, but Darkknight2149 can't seem to accept that. The ranting and raving pointed out in the above diffs are bad enough, but the attempted intimidation is worse. "Do as I say or I'll take you to ANI! I'll do it! ANI! I will, I'll drag you to ANI! You have until the count of three.... one... two... two and a half... No really, I'm serious, you have to do as I say or I'll drag you to ANI!! And I'm starting an ArbCom case too!" Reyk YO! 12:27, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Boomerang - This proposal is baseless, dishonest, and is very likely to WP:BOOMERANG for Eagles247.
Recent AFDs in which Darkknight !votes by attacking TTN or other users for nominating many articles for deletion - Blatantly fabricated. Half of those diffs (taken out of context) have absolutely nothing to do with AfD, TTN, or this situation at all. This was me removing a rude reply from my talk page (not AfD related), and this was me replying to a flippant, uncivil insult (also unrelated to AfD). Eagles247 is deliberately digging through my comment history, cherry-picking diffs, and claiming that they are AfD-related. This type of dishonesty is concerning coming from an administrator, not to mention (in addition to everything else) grounds for WP:ADMINACCT.
TTN has been cleaning up topics about fictional elements on Wikipedia for the past several months by nominating several hundred of them for deletion via PROD and AFD Right off the bat, he spins the situation without even attempting to explain what has been happening at AfD.
found that he had a 97% “success” rate, meaning 97% of his nominations resulted in delete, merge, or redirect after discussion - This excuse isn't valid for the reasons I'm about to outline below and are already outlined at WT:Notability (fiction). Nor does it justify TTN's disruption and refusal to engage in dispute resolution (the driving force of this conflict that Eagles neglected to mention).
and seemingly using this threat to try to prevent TTN from nominating more pages Having actively participated in the dispute at WT:Notability (fiction), Eagles247 knows exactly what the conflict is about. On top of outright lying, Eagles247 is deliberately feigning ignorance for the convenience of this report.
There have been multiple instances of Darkknight2149 threatening to take TTN to ANI over these concerns Proceeds to list of the instances where TTN was warned to stop and engage in dispute resolution. Notice how the crux of this "report" that Eagles247 filed (and subsequently parroted by Reyk) boils down to "Darkknight2149 had not gotten around to filing the ANI report yet, so he was using intimidation!" That's because it is the only thing they have to use against me and they know it.
Recent AFDs in which Darkknight !votes at AFD without providing a rationale This falls under WP:BADGERING. Given the sheer volume of nominations, my votes are perfectly valid. Every single one of those diffs was also in favour of a merge/move (which actually supports the nominations), so I'm not exactly sure what Eagles247 is trying to prove with this. This is also hypocritical considering that most of the rationales for deletion themselves (provided by TTN and Piotrus) have been some copy/paste variation of "Fails to establish notability. WP:GNG." TTN has also made it abundantly clear throughout these nominations that all he is doing is digging up as many Start-class/C-class character articles as he can, scrolling down to the References section, and spamming deletion nominations based on that alone. He doesn't even give users time to respond to the PRODS before opening an AfD. When sources are provided and guidelines are presented, TTN almost always refuses to accept them. There's no reason to type an in-depth explanation on every single vote. DarkKnight2149 11:33, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Note 2 - Additionally, I should also note that Reyk and Chetsford are both biased involved parties. Reyk is fully in on TTN and Eagles247's behaviour, as can be seen in the grotesque circlejerk that took place at WT:Notability (fiction) [21], [22], [23] and every other instance where Reyk has involved himself. His rationale for the ban is also the same paper-thin "DK didn't open the ANI report yet!" excuse that he parroted from Eagles247.
Similarly, Chetsford's rationale for support is purely political - Not specific to Darkknight2149 necessarily, but obviously including them based on the diffs presented by nom, there has been a pattern of intimidation, incivility, misinformed AfD !votes and threats against editors nominating comics and game-related topics for deletion. Diffs that were (in part) fabricated by Eagles247, having been completely unrelated to TTN and AfD. This AN thread provided by Miraclepine below also seems to shed light on Chetsford, where TTN and Chetsford are both seen harassing BOZ for creating character articles and voting against TTN's deletion nominations. [24] Nothing fishy about any of this at all.
I suspect that every Support vote will be exactly the same. Even if Eagles247 and TTN can WP:FACTION their way into making this retaliatory proposal pass ANI, it would likely be immediately repealed afterwards by the arbitration committee. TTN and Eagles247 would do best to stop sanction gaming and open a community-wide discussion at WP:DRN. Their refusal to adhere to simple consensus / WP:BRD procedure, and attempting to claim that everyone who has come out against them is part of some secret ownership cabal is the only reason this dispute is still ongoing. DarkKnight2149 11:33, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBAN to stop Darkknight2149 interacting with TTN, and also an AfD topic ban at the very least. No, DarkKnight2149, not every "Support" vote will be the same, because this one wouldn't even have existed but for your ludicrous rant just above this with accusations of lying, hypocrisy, intimidation and the "grotesque circlejerk" comment. I'm not entirely sure what you were thinking when you wrote it, but I suspect it will ensure that this ANI will not go well for you. Black Kite (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
@Black Kite: I am currently working on a response to this below explaining the situation with TTN (which I don't believe you are aware of and hasn't been addressed yet). The "accusations of lying, hypocrisy, and intimidation" exists because actual lying and hypocrisy took place. As I mentioned on my talk page, you will see me mention that this is the most blatant instance of administrator corruption I have encountered on Wikipedia (and I don't say that lightly). If you go through those diffs, you will find that what I said about Eagles427 fabricating evidence is 100% accurate.
I believe you are reacting to my comment on your face value perception of it. Could you please explain what it is you object to? DarkKnight2149 13:00, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
You're partially correct - if you don't understand why the above comments are written in a seriously problematic way, then I don't think I can help. (I mean, "Reyk is fully in on TTN and Eagles247's behaviour, as can be seen in the grotesque circlejerk that took place at (diffs) and every other instance where Reyk has involved himself") More to the point is that you are writing as if there is a massive political conspiracy by multiple users against you, without stopping to think that they all might believe independently that they are doing the right thing. Black Kite (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
@Black Kite: I apologise if my wording came across too strongly in that sentence. I don't see anything inherently hostile in the rest of it, though. And no, there most certainly isn't a "political conspiracy" against me. In fact, TTN, Piotrus, and Eagles247 are the ones arguing that there's a conspiracy. This (and the situation itself, which is complicated) will be properly explained in #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149, where I outline what is really been happening with the whole TTN debacle (Eagles247 has been deliberately vague and dishonest). Hopefully when given proper context, you reconsider your vote. So far, you are the only uninvolved party to vote. DarkKnight2149 13:27, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I do not believe there is a conspiracy here or at AFD. I think in general, members of a WikiProject may be more inclined to support the inclusion of articles within their WikiProject scope but there is nothing wrong with that tendency as long as there are policies and guidelines to support their positions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 13:37, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm more concerned with the fabrication of evidence than anything else, and specifically attributing out of context unrelated diffs that you dug from my contribution history to the AfD situation. I never thought I would see an administrator stoop that low. DarkKnight2149 14:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
You're carrying on in the same manner here - accusing people of lying, calling them names, and making all sorts of wild speculations as to their motivations. That makes it hard to believe the diffs above have been taken out of context at all. Being rude and accusatory seems to be your default setting. Reyk YO! 03:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
What you want to believe is immaterial, Reyk. Eagles247 absolutely did cherry-pick random diffs from my comment history and lie about them being related to AfD and TTN, which would be fabricating evidence. Not to mention that those two diffs that are related to AfD aren't even uncivil to begin with. If Eagles247 doesn't want to get called out for lying, then I suggest he stops lying. If they continue libeling and disruption, they are going to get called out for doing so. It's as simple as that. I know I'm in the right because the only thing you have against me is - 1) I didn't get around to filing the ANI report as soon as I would have liked. 2) I called TTN and Eagles247 out for their disruption, which you are spinning as an "attack". You know it just as well as I do, which is why Eagles247 is being forced to lie and fabricate evidence to begin with.
"calling them names" - Speaking of lying, when was this supposed name-calling? I would love to see proof of that, unless you consider "biased and involved" a personal attack.
"making all sorts of wild speculations" Ironic. Nothing I have said has been speculation, and your, TTN, and Eagles247's entire position at WT:Notability (fiction) has been built on making wild speculations about other people's motives. Every time someone opposes you, you automatically label them a "radical inclusionist fanboy" without any evidence. The conflict started with TTN casting aspersions and refusing to get the point after I pointed out a mistake in his Goblin nomination, and the subject of this report is me warning him about continued disruption and refusal to engage in dispute resolution. But don't worry, #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149 will be up tonight. I look forward to watching this dishonest proposal getting batted down by the Arbritation Committee. DarkKnight2149 05:27, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't see that Eagles247 has cherry picked anything. As far as I can tell, the diffs they provided absolutely are representative of your hostility and vivid imagination. This whole "conflict" started because you don't like TTN nominating things for deletion, nothing more. Perhaps you see him as an easy target because he was once punished by ArbCom, arguing that he must be also being disruptive now because he was once described as disruptive way back when. However, the fact that his nominations nowadays are backed by community consensus 97% of the time completely refutes that idea. You seem to have boundless time to badger people with angry rants, but seemingly no time to actually start the proceedings you keep threatening people with. Hurry up and start your ArbCom case already. I predict it won't go the way you want. Reyk YO! 08:49, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
"This whole "conflict" started because you don't like TTN nominating things for deletion, nothing more." You mean aside from the very genuine concerns repeatedly raised with TTN's behaviour and the nomination spamming? And the very demonstrable problems that they have caused at AfD? And the several other users that have spoken out about it? Your persistent WP:IDONTHEARTHAT is exactly why we're here today. But keep digging your grave. I'm in the middle of typing up a proper rebuttal below, and it's going to be a lot harder for you to keep pushing the narrative "But they are just mad because articles are deleted!" when it's finished.
"the fact that his nominations nowadays are backed by community consensus 97% of the time completely refutes that idea." Your arbritary percentage doesn't indicate a consensus for what TTN is doing, for reasons already explained by multiple users at WT:Notability (fiction), the Arbcom report, and soon by me (once again) below. Despite your attempts to libel me, you have nothing and you know you have nothing. I'm still waiting for you to show where "name calling" took place, by the way. DarkKnight2149 10:00, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
And if you want to claim that this is all an elaborate bluff (yet again), Reyk, here is a preview of what I am currently typing in that section. The goal is to have it finished tonight and posted either tonight or mid-day tomorrow. The ArbCom case won't be filed until this is over (and it won't take nearly as long, since the foundation would already be set), as the section header explicitly states below. But I guess you really want to keep pushing the "empty threats" narrative, huh? DarkKnight2149 10:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
(ec) I'm not on trial and I haven't started proceedings against anyone so your repeated insistence that I "have nothing" is not really relevant. I just think you're wrong. By the way, if you're going to accuse people of lying, you shouldn't then also do things like accusing me of calling others "radical inclusionist fanboys". I never said that and I defy you to find a diff where I did. Or just finish typing up your ArbCom case. I predict it won't go the way you want. Reyk YO! 10:19, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
For the last time, the ArbCom case is after this ANI thread has wrapped. In fact, we're likely going to be migrating there as soon as this closes. I'm in the middle of working on #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149 right now. And you, Eagles247, and TTN have claimed and insinuated more than once (particularly at WT:Notability (fiction)) that every. single. person that has spoken out against you is an irrational inclusionist (with zero evidence). You just said it again about me right here. That's the epitome of WP:IDHT and WP:ASPERSIONS if I have ever seen it. DarkKnight2149 10:32, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
I didn't say anything of the kind. Either file your ArbCom motion or just drop the issue. Up to you. Either way, stop putting words in my mouth that I never said, and leave me alone. Reyk YO! 10:39, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
This will be my final reply to you, until I get the below section finished (which will have your diffs/proof in it), is to stop putting words in my mouth and stop libeling me. You are accountable for your actions. DarkKnight2149 10:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBAN to stop Darkknight2149 interacting with TTN. This constant attacking has to stop. Regardless of the merits of an AFD, AFD discussion should not be about the nominator. Paul August 13:24, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: It was a mistake to post the cliffnotes rebuttal above without giving the proper context first, by explaining the situation below at #Comments and proposals by Darkknight2149 (currently working on). It's a shame that my limited time on Wikipedia has allowed Eagles247 to scew the narrative and completely deceive uninitiated editors who don't actually know what's been going on. ArbCom seems like the natural conclusion. After all, they are the ones who sanctioned TTN for this kind of behaviour the first time.
One thing I should address, since it's the only remotely convincing point that Eagles247 has on me, is the narrative that I have been using "bluffs" to "intimidate". He's essentially arguing that, because I warned TTN about an upcoming ANI report numerous times and never got around to it, I have been trying to "intimidate" people. First of all, let me explain a few more tidbits of the situation:
  1. My time on Wikipedia is more limited than it was three or so years ago. As users such as Paleface Jack can attest, my work in general tends to move pretty slowly.
  2. The original goal was to file the ANI report the weekend after I dropped the warning on TTN's talk page. Before this could happen, however, the discussion at WT:Notability (fiction) took off and delayed it significantly (this was around mid-December). However, it was delayed because the discussion there was heating up and I was waiting to see how it would pan out. However, there was a period from the holidays to mid-January that it honestly looked like TTN had taken some of the feedback at heart (from myself and multiple users), slowed down, and started to take the time to properly assess the articles he was nominating. However, I found out that this wasn't the case two days ago.
  3. Even with this notice from 2 days ago in mind, the ANI report would not have been filed immediately. For one, I am currently dealing with another situation above involving WP:BLUDGEONING. For two, I am currently busy in real life, which is I haven't even gotten my full response published yet. I probably shouldn't have published smaller rebuttals first, since they rely heavily on the context of the larger situation at #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149. Going incremental was a bad idea, apparently.
To be honest, whether or not he believes that I'm "bluffing" isn't relevant. This thread is becoming a trainwreck before it has really even begun, and the band aid has already been ripped off (so an ArbCom case request wouldn't take nearly as long to file as this ANI report did). If this situation isn't properly and justly resolved, the ArbCom case request will (hopefully) be filed the same week this thread concludes. DarkKnight2149 14:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Can you provide me a diff in which I accuse you of "bluffing"? You used it in quotes twice here which makes it look like I've used that word before, and I don't believe this is the case. Eagles 24/7 (C) 14:32, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
For the record, I have only interacted with Darkknight2149 in three threads prior to opening this discussion: Iron Maiden (comics) AFD in which he !voted "keep" per my rationale (despite my !vote supporting a redirect), Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction)#Deletion_of_articles_about_fiction, and Mindless Ones AFD only because he pinged me to sling mud two months after I responded at the notability thread. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support One-way IBAN and AFD Topicban for Darkknight, I dont see how any context would make what DK is doing okay. but we will see once he finshes typing up the comments and proposel section. TTN and Eagles, im sorry you are having to deal with this bullshit. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 17:36, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support two-way interaction ban and topic ban both Darkknight2149 and TTN from AFD. One-way interaction bans are rarely workable, and based on the conversations linked above, TTN's nominations were very obviously disruptive. Darkknight2149 wasn't behaving well, but TTN himself often responded by senseless bludgeoning of Darkknight2149's comments. Give both of them the same. Incidentally, I agree that this case is likely too soon for Arbcom. Krow750 (talk) 05:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
@Krow750: Honestly, if TTN would just stop and engage in dispute resolution by making his case at WP:DRN, I would be more than happy to drop the stick based on whatever result is determined there (as I stated throughout the AfDs). But alas, that is unlikely to happen. While I do not believe that I deserve to be banned, I would support this on the condition that TTN engages in Dispute Resolution when the ban expires, instead of going right back to what he was doing before in some other form (he was already banned once for bulk-redirecting massive amounts of character articles, and now it's PRODs and AfDs).
A one-way IBAN would also put me in a very vulnerable position, especially after having been lied about several times, so I would have no choice but to file the ArbCom case if that happens. DarkKnight2149 06:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support One-way IBAN and AFD Topicban for Darkknight per OP. I observed, but didn't participate in several of the discussions quoted above, and the additional evidence combined with DKs behaviour in this thread show me that they clearly can't contribute non-disruptively in these areas. As an additional note, threatening, but not actually initiating proceedings is a never a good look, and neither is repeatedly bringing up a 10+ old finding. Scribolt (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support two-way IBAN for Darknight and TTN, noting that I mainly see DarkKnight's behaviour as the problem, and TTN only in so far that he keeps his interactions with DK running for way longer than is productive. While TTN tends to rebut notability claims of any editor in AfDs and generally makes it about the sources, it's obvious that DK has a beef with TTN and targets him specifically. DK has repeatedly hijacked AfDs so that I felt that subthreads had to be archived to make the AfD readable (1,2). My take on the discussion at WT:FICT (while it was still running) was that DK lacks self-reflection and suffers from WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to learn from other people's suggestions, while at the same time continuing to threaten with ANI and ARBCOM, apparently to daunt others (as if that was likely to work, huh). DK appears unable to WP:DROPTHESTICK, and it's gotten so tiresome for me that I just ignore any DK discussion threads (with or about TTN) nowadays. – sgeureka tc 16:44, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
    • @Sgeureka: If a one-way interaction ban were enacted (with only Darkknight2149 being banned from interacting with TTN), are you of the belief that TTN would make reference or interact with Darkknight2149 in a disruptive manner in the future? I agree that TTN has let their arguments with Darkknight219 go on for far too long at times, but it doesn't seem like TTN is the one starting these debates. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
      • @Eagles247: I initially preferred a one-way IBAN, but then I found this AFD where TTN started the (way too long) interaction. It would be unfair to make it all about DK, and I somewhat agree with Krow750 that one-way IBANs rarely work and with DK that that would put DK in a very vulnerable position. – sgeureka tc 08:03, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Per Sgeureka and his sensible comments, I prefer a two-way IBAN. On the other hand, I feel that the AfD ban is unnecessary for either party, since it's most important to just separate the two parties at the moment. Talrolande (talk) 18:20, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Delayed (briefly) per El C

Case request by Darkknight2149Edit

In light of this ([25], [26], [27]), I have scrapped the comment I was typing and will now be opening a case request to the arbritration committee before today is over with. The rampant disruption of TTN and misconduct from Eagles247 is astounding. The latter is an administrator and should know better, and I'm glad he did half of my work for me by filing this report and prompting me to push my other work aside and take action. ArbCom is the most appropriate place to take this, since they are the ones who banned TTN for very similar disruption in the past. For immediate background information, I would recommend taking a look at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Deletion of articles about fiction. The case request will be about the persistent personal attacks, aspersions, gaming, battleground-behaviour, WP:IDHT, refusal to engage in dispute resolution, blindly mass nominating copious amounts of Start-class articles for deletion at once (based only on quickly scrolling to the References sections, which has caused several issues at WP:AFD), borderline WP:NOTHERE tendencies, and rampant dishonesty from TTN, as well as factioning, gaming, and administrator misconduct from Eagles247. Virtually nothing that Eagles247 has said here has been honest, and the case request will be open before today is over with. DarkKnight2149 17:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I re-read my responses at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Deletion of articles about fiction, and I stand by all of them. I also stand by reverting your attempted header change using the rollback tool in accordance with WP:TPO. I look forward to reading your ArbCom case request when it is filed, and I wish you luck with the process. Eagles 24/7 (C) 17:57, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment - What Eagles247's diffs about me "threatening" ANI don't show is that every time I had begun working an ANI report, something else came up. The holidays, the discussion at WT:Notability (fiction), and a number of other things. After December, it honestly looked as though TTN had slowed down and actually begun assessing the articles that he was bulk-nominating. It wasn't until yesterday that I checked AfD and found that TTN (who has been warned way too many times at this point) was continuing exactly what he was doing beforehand. If Eagles247 believes that I am bluffing (I'm sure they will grasp onto anything they can get a hold of as a defense), I don't actually care either way, since the ArbCom case will be up soon regardless. This isn't the first time this week that someone has WP:BOOMERANGed themselves by filing a retaliatory report on me. Eaglea247's weak allegations are also reassuring. DarkKnight2149 18:06, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Darkknight2149: you are risking having your Arbitration request, which lest we forget is the last step in the dispute resolution process, being declined as premature due to not having attempted everything else first. Cited above are numerous warnings you've made of submitting noticeboard reports about this dispute. Did you submit such a report yet? If not, I'm not sure this ANI discussion itself has been exhausted yet, having reached an impasse that would result in an accepted Arbitration request. Just a hunch. El_C 18:24, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Darkknight2149: I'd recommend adding BOZ to the Arbitration request. TTN's comment in this AN thread about BOZ stating that many of his actions are in line with keeping the standards of 2006 Wikipedia raises concerns about whether or not the criterion 6 of WP:ADMINACCT - Repeated or consistent poor judgment - applies to BOZ's situation and should be grounds to desysop BOZ. ミラP 02:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
    • For the record, and if it helps, since my AN discussion (and this is summarizing my last post there), I have acknowledged and apologized for my past mistakes and poor judgement. I have greatly reduced my efforts at article creation to focus only on notable topics, I have modified my approach at AFD to always cite relevant policies and avoid the appearance of canvassing, and I have avoided undeleting anything which clearly should not be undeleted and using my admin tools on any articles that I have been previously involved with, and will continue to do these things. I have made a lot of progress on my undeletions list, but I understand that I still have a lot to go through. BOZ (talk) 11:38, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
    • I don't think this issue has much to do with BOZ at all, unless you want to drag everyone who votes the other way to TTN into it was well. Reyk YO! 12:40, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
      • Also also for the record, although I clearly do not agree with a good majority of his goals on Wikipedia, I have actually come to respect TTN for at least his openness about it and I think he takes a far more tempered approach than he once did. I might have quarreled with him in the past, but I do not want to have conflict with him or anyone else anymore. BOZ (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149Edit

Up soon. To avoid further distractions, I'm going to hold off replying to users (such as Reyk, Eagles247, and anything that isn't necessary to reply to) until it's done. DarkKnight2149 10:39, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: you've been talking about how you're going to post something in this section for a couple days now. I think admins have been fairly patient so far and have given you enough time to respond adequately to the concerns raised here. I strongly suggest that you post something here very soon if you intend for it to be read before this thread is closed. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:50, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
@NinjaRobotPirate: I was planning on posting it yesterday, but something came up. I mentioned earlier that my time isn't unlimited these days. Would it be more convenient to go ahead and close the case with the proposed sanctions due to "support for Eagles' proposal and excessive delays in Darkknight's defense" and then have me reopen the case (either here or at ArbCom) when I can get it typed? Eagles' allegations are weak enough that I'm confident that debunking them and repealing the sanction won't be difficult, just time consuming. DarkKnight2149 03:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Genuine question (no subtext), by the way. That much is obvious, but I felt I should clarify just so my words don't get spun around by Eagles247 later as "aggression at AfD" again. He already pulled diffs from unrelated threads and claimed that they were "AfD-related", which is just one example of his dishonesty. DarkKnight2149 05:25, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
That might be best. It would give you as much time as necessary. Since I'm here, I could close this.... but I've interacted extensively with most of the people mentioned in this proposal except for Eagles 247. TTN, Reyk, BOZ, and I are acquainted through hundreds (maybe even thousands) of AfD discussions, which seems to be the crux of this dispute. I also probably interacted with each of them a bit more outside of AfD, too (looking for sources, discussing notability issues, that sort of thing). I've helped DK2149 deal with a harassment campaign by sock puppets of a troll. In short, it's small world, and I'm a pretty active editor/admin. So, it might be best if someone else closed this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:51, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Request for closureEdit

Would an uninvolved admin (@El C: ?) please close per Darkknight2149's suggestion: close the case with the proposed sanctions due to "support for Eagles' proposal and excessive delays in Darkknight's defense" and then have me reopen the case (either here or at ArbCom) when I can get it typed?, and NinjaRobotPirate's demure, above? Paul August 14:00, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
To be clear, since Serial Number 54129 seems to have misunderstood me (see below), I'm proposing this be closed with a sanction for Darkknight2149 as they themselves have proposed. Paul August 12:22, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "excessive delays in Darkknight's defense" is a contributing factor to a closure here, he's responded 16 times already with great length and detail, and has been unable to convince participants in this discussion to agree with him. Eagles 24/7 (C) 14:15, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
I have no opinion on whether "excessive delays" should be a factor, or whether mention of such should be part of the language of the close, those would be things the closing admin should decide. Paul August 15:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
"with great length and detail" This is false. My primary defense has yet to be posted and the situation has yet to be explained. All of my comments here have been supplementary statements responding to specific claims from Eagles, Reyk, and other users. And without my primary statement, those supplementary statements have been pretty ineffectual due to a lack of context. DarkKnight2149 19:20, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
So what are the "Boomerang" and "Note 2" comments above? There isn't any due process requirement where people have to wait for your response or as you call your "primary" defense. If you made lengthy responses but failed to provide your main points (saving them for some nebulous later time), do not be surprised if most people aren't going to go back and revise their !vote here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:33, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@Ricky81682: What lenghty response? Boomerang is a compilation of quickfire responses to specific points that Eagles247 made and Note 2 was a follow up addressing something else. That would fall under "supplementary responses". A lot of the stuff mentioned there is also reliant on #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149. Examples - This type of dishonesty is concerning coming from an administrator, not to mention (in addition to everything else) grounds for WP:ADMINACCT. What's the everything else? Right off the bat, he spins the situation without even attempting to explain what has been happening at AfD. What's been going on at AfD? What is TTN's disruption? This excuse isn't valid for the reasons I'm about to outline below and are already outlined at WT:Notability (fiction). Nor does it justify TTN's disruption and refusal to engage in dispute resolution (the driving force of this conflict that Eagles neglected to mention). This never got outlined below, and where does Dispute Resolution enter the equation? And so on...
"do not be surprised if most people aren't going to go back and revise their !vote here" Which is exactly why I advised NinjaRobotPirate to go ahead and close the thread to begin with. The Request for Closure? That would be me. The defense was initially supposed to be posted within a few hours of Boomerang. Then the next day. Then the next day. Then I got over halfway done and believed it would be posted the day-before-yesterday. Then something came up, and I suggested a closure. If you and Serial Number 54129 are going to respond, please keep up with the conversation. DarkKnight2149 19:22, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
And to be clear, the intention is to re-open the case as soon as it is done typing, either here or (more likely) a follow up at ArbCom. DarkKnight2149 19:27, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
So no matter what the closure is here, you will argue after it's done, either here or try again at ArbCom? Hopefully then you will provide us with your "primary" defense. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@Paul August: No, it should be closed in line with consensus; and in this particular case, the consensus seems to be in favour of osme kind of sanction for DK2K149 (although acertaining precisely what that sanction is to be is why the closing admin is paid big bucks). ——SN54129 11:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@Serial Number 54129: You seem to have misunderstood me. Yes, it should be closed "in line" with consensus, and yes, as you say, the consensus favors a sanction for Darkknight2149. And this is exactly what I've proposed above, and in fact this is what Darkknight2149 themselves have proposed.
Many thakns! I assumed that DK2K149 was aligning themselves with the suggestion that they should (naturally) avoid sanction. Thanks for the clarification! ——SN54129 12:25, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@Serial Number 54129: Yes, I understand. Sorry for not being more clear. Paul August 12:32, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, Paul August, I have not read this report closely and am simply too busy today to do so. El_C 18:55, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

  • Support one-way IBAN of Darkknight2149 and support AfD topic ban. Darkknight2149, whatever your strategy here is, it's not helping your cause to keep on promising to present some explanation or defense later and especially not helpful to further drag this on by stating that you will keep on elevating this. You would be better off honestly reviewing everything here instead of being so defensive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@Ricky81682: Why bother replying to a discussion you obviously know nothing about? I can only repeat - If you are going to respond, then keep up with the conversation. The intention was to post #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149 immediately after the supplementary statement. The only thing delaying it is the length and scheduling in real life. As I was getting closer to finishing a few days later, NinjaRobotPirate mentioned how long it was taking and I suggested going ahead and closing the discussion to give me more time to work on it without keeping everyone waiting. None of this was planned, and I have certainly been honest than TTN, Reyk, and Eagles247.
I should also note that I was already going to file an ANI thread at some point, but Eagles247 wanted to beat me to the punch. So yeah, don't act shocked when my schedule doesn't align with yours. If I had an infinite amount of time, this ANI report would have been filed in early December. I'm also currently juggling a sock puppet situation at #Sock puppet investigation and DC Extended Universe. You would do well to familarise yourself with the situation before basing your support on a presumptuous narrative about "strategy". DarkKnight2149 22:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
If you simply must know, I am currently dealing with medical issues, a child support situation, work-related stuff, and I'm about to move houses for the third time since 2018. And that's all I'm telling you. Even now, I'm typing this on a mobile phone while the #Comments and proposal by Darkknight2149 draft is on a laptop at my house. So familarise yourself on this ANI situation before you attempt to "confront" someone and throw down some sort of gauntlet. DarkKnight2149 22:29, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear you have so much going on. Llywrch though is right to ask, is it really that important for you to fight about whether or not you can argue in deletion discussions in Wikipedia? In the amount of time you've spent berating me, you could add a single sentence giving some idea what you want here. My opinion is based on what I read. I'm sorry that we are now at "I have a giant, giant explanation I don't have time to post but I do have time to post a giant screed at you for not waiting on my giant explanation." ;-) Good luck and take some time to relax. Feel free to ping me when you post it and I'll review and revise my single meaningless !vote accordingly. :-) -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm an uninvolved Admin, & I took the time to familiarize myself with the details. I also have a full-time job, 2 young children (whom I am told are "special needs") & will be dealing with some medical issues in the next month, so I have some sympathy for Darkknight2149 here. What I'd like to propose is this: that Darkknight2149 take a WikiBreak of 30-90 days, get away from this place for a while, & deal with what he has to deal with. In return, there will be no IBAN, no sanctions, or anything. Yes, the AfDs will continue in your absence, but that will happen anyway. Most critically, what's more important: dealing with your own life, or Wikipedia? Any articles that are deleted can be recreated, if you can provide a persuasive argument for that. (And I suspect some of these lists can be fixed if someone adds the needed reliable sources. It can be done in one's personal space.) But at the moment it appears to me you are not in a good shape to convince anyone you are right, let alone do the work to save these articles, & are facing sanctions & humiliation if you don't take a Wikibreak.
I'll wait until the weekend (West Coast time in the US) for an answer before closing this. And I ask other admins to give Darkknight that time to consider this offer, & not close this discussion with the expected outcome. -- llywrch (talk) 23:48, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Update: No response from Darkknight2149, but he's only edited once since I made the above offer. If DK does not make an edit in the next few days, I'll assume he accepted the offer & is on a 30+ day Wikibreak & close this thread. If he does return to his earlier, problematic behavior I'll need to enforce the community consensus. -- llywrch (talk) 22:01, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

User: BrockholdEdit

Brockhold (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Could an admin take a quick look at this user's talk page and recent edits. [28]

They have been deleting content from this page today and the talk page does rather suggest WP:NOTHERE. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I think I need to add more here, as thus far no one has commented. I note that this user has continued to edit multiple articles and every edit has been reverted. A lot of the reverts yesterday are by Vif12vf (talk · contribs) who asks in an edit summary that Brockhold stop disrupting articles.[29].
I have looked at the user's edits and they are not clearly malicious. Yet the editor continually makes these small edits that are, in practice, disruptive - leading to many talk page warnings and several final warnings - and the editor does not engage in the article talk pages. This may be a case of WP:CIR, with the editor unaware of how disruptive their edits are. It would be good if the editor could respond here. I did notify them of this thread, but pinging Brockhold (talk · contribs) for comment. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:44, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Brockhold has possibly used several IP's in the past, and has never responded to anything. Basically this editor ignores our very excistence! I think some of the IP's have gotten blocked, but somehow this never acctually happened to the main profile! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 13:16, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I left a final warning at User talk:Brockhold#Collaboration. Please ping me if further problems occur. Johnuniq (talk) 04:27, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Johnuniq, looks like the problems might be continuing, looking at their contribs.. Waggie (talk) 23:17, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
@Waggie: I looked at that several hours ago and it seemed ok. I would take action if I saw Brockhold make an edit which another editor reverted, with Brockhold substantially repeating the edit without discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 02:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
These three edits all reintroduce previously reverted material: [30][31][32]. Again there is no discussion. Thanks Johnuniq.
Confederate States of America in particular shows clear edit warring today: [33] -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I have reverted on that article twice today and would like to avoid reverting a third time! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 13:10, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I have blocked Brockhold indefinitely. Any admin is welcome to unblock if Brockhold demonstrates a willingness to collaborate. Johnuniq (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


There is an AfD that I am a part of; actually I was part of some work this weekend to strike out the names of the suspect from the article in keeping with Wikipedia privacy policies. When it was first posted, the nominator asked why this particular missing persons case was unusual (per WP:NOTNEWS and etc. about not having an article for every crime.) I quickly noticed it and before I had decided one way or another, posted a link to the article Missing white woman syndrome which discusses why some crime victims get more press than others.

Sometime later, after I had made a comment about how I felt the article should go (in opposition to the other editor's thoughts), User:Wikieditor19920 decided to strike through my comment without leaving an edit summary, leaving this note in the article: "Striking as inflammatory and off-topic." They had asked me a few hours earlier to do so, but both the request and the strike was done while I was working. I was a bit shocked, and wasn't even sure if an editor was supposed to do this (as it turns out, it's not, WP:TPO). I double checked to see if they were an admin; surely that's more of an admin thing. Thankfully another editor backed it out. I attempted to talk it over with them with mixed results.

This one incident seems one of many as it turns out - they went to the talk page of editor User:Black Kite who put the article up for AfD asking them why (which is in the AfD), and later accused the editor of ignoring policy and being disruptive - none of which makes much sense, AfDs are procedural and this isn't a case where someone has put the article up for an AfD repeatedly which would be abuse. Or calling the logic of someone who supports deletion "hopelessly flawed" - all this seems to fly in the face of AfD etiquette. I've participated in many AfD discussions, and this is more of a personal attack than a discussion of how to properly apply Wikipedia policy and guidelines.

This apparently is not the first time at the ANI rodeo for this user: see [34], [35], [36], and this edit war that went way out of control. This is getting a bit absurd, and while I don't feel harassed yet, there is definitely a discomfort when wanting to engage with this user. Even bringing this up at ANI was hard because I knew it would likely distract from anti-vandalism work.

But none of this feels right. We are supposed to be civil. This - what has been doing on - isn't civil, and after that many notes at the ANI, I would have think they would have learned their lesson. Apparently not. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 03:43, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

This report makes no allegation of a violation other than trying to Poison the well. User:Mr. Vernon suggested at an AfD discussion (Murder of Tessa Majors) on an article about a murder that the victim's race was the only reason that reliable source sources had reported on it. Further, they based their delete vote on this reasoning, which completely disregards AfD guidelines and frankly violates WP:NOTFORUM. I raised an issue with the editor about this, and they have since repeatedly posted on my talk page to challenge me about it, restoring a thread I had deleted violating my right to WP:BLANK.
In addition to beating a WP:DEADHORSE on my talk page, this user is also canvassing [37][38][39][40] "support" for this thread. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 04:35, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Please do not use quotes around something I did not say. I never said the victim's race. I did say that if she were of another race, she wouldn't be getting this kind of press coverage, and the article I linked to has peer-reviewed data to back up that assertion. Second, this isn't WP:CANVASSING; there cannot be an attempt to move the needle on consensus because ANI does not operate based on consensus. These users have had interactions recently with this user and may want to provide input; but that's all they can provide, input. All of these users have had interaction with this user recently about this specific AfD (and only those users.) Notifying them that there is an ongoing discussion seems correct. If it IS canvassing (or otherwise against another policy that I am not aware of), please let me know ASAP and I will remove the notifications and apologize for getting it wrong, and accept whatever punishment I get for breaking the rules. Also, the "vote" (which it isn't, AfDs run based on consensus) had nothing to do with this, but rather my reading of WP:EVENT and determining notability guidelines for crime based on a reading of the material; see here. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
User acknowledges that they said what I said they said (I italicized for emphasis, didn't use quotes) and asks if they can unring a bell re: WP:CANVAS. Over a comment that I agreed to disagree with them on. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Odd, I thought Canvassing was more like this attempt to solicit a user's "vote" into the AfD you are involved with. Did I get that wrong? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 05:03, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
The above diff shows that I solicited the advice of an uninvolved admin about an article possibly qualifying for WP:SPEEDYKEEP, whose position I had no idea about beforehand. Indeed, the admin disagreed with me. You are going around asking for editors who you believe will be on your side because they either a) agreed with you at the AfD discussion (constituting a small minority), b) have had disagreements with me in the past, or c) both, to "chime in," or rather, gang up on an ANI thread. Apples and oranges. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 05:19, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Followup on canvassing: my mistake, I interpreted the article to apply to matters of consensus only. I've rolled back the changes, and as far as I know those editors have not read it (they have not posted here or tried to contact me.) It's up to the admins how they want to handle it. Of course the edits are still there (Wikieditor19920 has linked to them) so they can be examined and the appropriate action taken. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 05:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
And for repeatedly restoring a deleted thread (yours) to my talk page? Was that a mistake as well? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 06:13, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Wikieditor19920, how is that inflammatory comment?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 09:13, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
SharabSalam—is it proper to imply that the article exists because the victim is a white woman? Bus stop (talk) 15:54, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Bus stop that's not what he/she said.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:41, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Of course that's "what he/she said". And Mr. Vernon goes on to say "If she were of another race, there wouldn't be this kind of coverage." Also User:LaraGingerbread responds to Mr. Vernon saying "So Tessa's case got attention because she's white?" The whiteness of a victim is not a reason to delete an article. Such comments can be considered extraneous to a deletion discussion. And possibly a violation of WP:FORUM. Mr. Vernon is still writing (2 days ago) "Furthermore Missing white woman syndrome is an input here. She is getting significant coverage because she's a young attractive white woman." I don't think Wikipedia second-guesses sources and looks skeptically on sources based on our belief that we know what motivates sources. Bus stop (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Question Is it permissible to ping the talk pages of an admin to ask them to Speedy Keep an article going through AfD? I've read WP:SK and it gives very limited reasons for doing so, none of which apply here. WP:SNOW wasn't even applying (not at the time, anyway.) I've always thought that the folks at AfD do a good job of monitoring and applying Speedy Keep/Snow/etc. when they apply without needing to go around asking. It also seems odd that once the admin said no, Wikieditor19920 kept pushing [41] [42]. This is an honest question - is this ok to do? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 13:37, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Wikieditor19920 appears to be WP:BLUDGEONING at this AfD. Not only 14 additions to the AfD (one now gone), but editing another user's edit[43] and posting to three user TPs [44] [45] [46]. I suggest a warning to let others !vote without harrassment. O3000 (talk) 13:42, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
And now the canvassing kicks in. I'll note that User:Objective3000 is criticizing me for my number of contributions at an AfD, while exhibiting the same behavior at a move discussion for that same page. Ironically, 03000 took the AfD as another opportunity to attempt to re-litigate the move discussion, which was completely irrelevant.
User:Mr. Vernon purports he didn't know that canvassing was a technical violation, but common sense should hold that seeking out other editors to gang up on someone is not in accordance with WP policy. He actually violated 3 tenets of canvassing with this thread: 1) posting a non-neutral message "chime in... Wikieditor is getting absurd..." 2) to a non-neutral audience (those he believes more likely to agree with him for reasons above) and 3) perhaps spamming (posting the same message rapidly on 4 different user talkpages). It's difficult to believe that this was an unintentional innocent mistake, and you can't unring a bell.
Lastly, this user forced me to delete his thread from my talk page four times [47][48][49][50] to challenge me on something I had already acknowledged, our disagreement about his comment, and which there was nothing further to say about. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:05, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I am confused about how an editor can force you to remove something from a talk page. Being very proactive about pruning a conversation from a talk page (as in, within a few minutes) seems like a choice. Your comment is still on my talk page; what of it? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 14:12, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
You are not entitled to restore comments to my talk page that I have deleted. Removal is an acknowledgment that I have read it, as were my (multiple) responses. WP:BLANK, WP:TPG. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:20, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
All involved need to stop bickering here and at the AfD. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Agree, which is why I suggested a warning about bludgeoning with no sanction. O3000 (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I agree. I'd love to. It should be kept at the AfD. And if Wikieditor19920 did that, as is the case for most AfDs, that would be fantastic. But they take it to my talk page. They [edit my comments. They harass the person who nominated the article for AfD on their talk page. They request a speedy keep from an admin and harass them after they say no to the point where the admin says "I must also admit some curiosity as to what you think you'll accomplish, practically speaking. It should be clear by now I'm not going to change my mind." I'm wondering if this user is here to build an encyclopedia or not. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 14:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Simply, the user needs to stop bludgeoning debates in which they are invested. Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 February 16 is not too impressive, as is the AfD mentioned above. Pretty much all of their last 90 edits are related to those two issues. I don't particularly mind the issue of my talk page; after all, I'm an admin and get pinged for stuff regularly - however this assumed bad faith. Oh, and "If you can find the sources to meet GNG, then it is notable" is nonsense, which seems to be all too often repeated at AfD. Black Kite (talk) 15:14, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Aggressive bludgeoning is WE19920's main mode of interaction on talk pages; a stern warning from an attentive admin is sorely needed. --JBL (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Joel B. LewisWikieditor19920 nicely asks Mr. Vernon on their Talk page if they would consider striking their comment. They explain that the comment is "in very poor taste in an AfD discussion like the one above". And Wikieditor19920 nicely asks Cryptic on their Talk page about the same subject. I will point out that Cryptic says that this incident "shouldn't have gotten the disproportionate media coverage it has". No, that is not what Wikipedia is about. We follow sources. Sources clearly enunciate that the Murder of Tessa Majors is interpreted by some to herald a return to high crime rates in New York City.[51] Wikipedia does not get to decide that the incident "shouldn't have gotten the disproportionate media coverage it has". Bus stop (talk) 16:12, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Bus stop I see that you have learned nothing from your recently expired topic ban. --JBL (talk) 19:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
JBL—there are often two sides to a story, and I feel it is important to support somebody being treated shabbily. I think I am weighing in to this discussion in a measured manner. Thanks for the heads up. I wouldn't want to be blocked again. Bus stop (talk) 20:05, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Black Kite—you say "Simply, the user needs to stop bludgeoning debates". An overly simplistic understanding of the current juncture might find that you should not have initiated the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Tessa Majors. It is OK to have such a discussion—why should we have an article on Murder of Tessa Majors? We can discuss this. But it has to be done in a civil manner. That should not include an extraneous comment about Missing white woman syndrome. That comment immediately followed your nomination of the article for deletion. I don't think that is what you had in mind. You made no mention of race in your explanation for why you were nominating this article for deletion. The comment should have been expunged and that is simply what Wikieditor19920 was endeavoring to do. Bus stop (talk) 16:37, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Bus stop: That's because it was I saw the AfD a few minutes after it went live and replied to it immediately. As far as I know that's the basic order of AfDs, top-level comments are in chronological order, which is why my input (keep or delete) is much further down the page. I'm not sure why I saw the AfD so soon, but I had been watching that page closely due to issues regarding posting the names of the suspects (not by anyone involved here) and of course when I'm looking out for vandalism, watching recent changes/new pages is a must. --Mr. Vernon (talk)

I'd suggest both the OP and Wikieditor199220 give that AfD some breathing room and leave each other alone. That should resolve everything. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

That's fine, but User:Mr. Vernon has now 1) violated my talkspace by restoring a thread that I intentionally deleted, multiple times, and 2) has filed a frivolous ANI report over an issue that had ended (my striking of a comment he made at an AfD discussion, that wasn't part of his vote, and with an explanation, which he objected to and that I took no further action on) and 3) engaged in blatant canvassing to unduly influence an ANI thread against me. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Further, the fact that this user would try to compensate for the lack of any perceptible reason to have come to ANI in this instance by trying to create prejudice with a full history of any time I've been involved in an ANI thread (which is limited and never resulted in any sanction), in addition to the canvassing, is a complete misuse of what ANI is for. WP:BOOMERANG should apply here. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 04:00, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: where is the restoring multiple times? The only time they seemed to restore comments you deleted is here [52] [53]. While generally speaking editors should not restore comments that an editor deleted from their talk page, the explanation [54] offers some understanding of why they did so.

I don't see where else they restored comments that you had deleted. They did make that new comments on the issue after you had deleted the thread, but that is not a WP:OWNTALK issue. If we're ignoring psychic nonsense, by definition you cannot have read comments which had not been posted before. And while yes, if they use the same section heading technically they're restoring the section heading that's a fairly pointless semantic debate since the editor could just give a different section heading.

For WP:harassment and other reasons, if an editor wants to drop an issue on their talk page, this generally should be respected, just as if an editor wants to completely ban another from their talk page. But that's a different point. And frankly, I can understand why Mr. Vernon wanted to offer their explanation if you're making such a big deal over what is actually a single restoration of deleted comments.

Further if you want someone to drop an issue, it helps a great deal if you don't respond either other than with a basic message saying you no longer wish to discuss the issue. While editors should generally still respect a request to drop an issue on their talk page even if the other editor has said a lot as unfair as that can be, it's generally a bit lame to expect you should be the one to get in the last word.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

First of all, this user is not allowed to restore any comments to my talk page, once, twice, or at all. And repeatedly re-opening a thread title that I deleted with new comments is just as much of a restoration as his restoring a deleted conversation thread.
This has nothing to do with who has the "last word." I could not care less, nor do I owe him a response to every one of a series messages confronting me about something long dropped, to either his satisfaction or yours. I politely raised an issue with User:Mr. Vernon on his talk page about a potentially inflammatory comment he made an an AfD. He took exception with my striking the remark at the page and posted on my talk page about it. When I gave this response, there was nothing more to say about it. I shouldn't have to repeat myself with this post, which was the last response I gave before he came to ANI (and which shows how unnecessary this report was). As for If we're ignoring psychic nonsense, by definition you cannot have read comments which had not been posted before., I have no idea what you are talking about. I removed the thread once he had posted it, in addition to offering written replies. This is a user who seems to have lost his temper and apparently didn't get the response he wanted from me, and that's why where at ANI. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • The main question, in my opinion, concerns the propriety/impropriety of striking through a flippant comment on race. I wanted to do something about the comment "What makes this one unusual?" Please see Missing white woman syndrome—but I did not. It is a response to the Nom (Black Kite) asking What makes this one unusual? There in fact may be a racial component to the Murder of Tessa Majors but it is imperative that any such racial component be addressed in a serious way. The comment was out of place. If I would have done something, I probably would have outright reverted it. In general, I support Wikieditor19920's striking through of what I am terming a flippant statement. The statement is not respectful of anyone—not black people, not white people—and we can know that it was not intended with complete seriousness because there was no followthrough—that line of argument was not continued in Mr. Vernon's actual deletion argument. In fact there is no mention of race in Mr. Vernon's actual deletion argument. Bus stop (talk) 17:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
The comment was perfect.-EEng
  • Except judging by your comment you have not understand what that editor said. It was a perfect comment. The editor asked why that was unusual and that was the right reply, showing why the media is extensively covering the story. It was not inappropriate.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:41, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
    EEng, LOL, good one. My English is still developing and I listen to Trump all the time. He has some influence on my English.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 09:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
    I certainly hope you're joking. EEng 15:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Has this thread gone far enough into the Twilight Zone yet? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call ANI.-EEng
I think of ANI as more like the Towaway Zone. EEng 01:25, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • SharabSalam—if the idea of Missing white woman syndrome was a part of a cogent argument for the deletion of the article Murder of Tessa Majors, wouldn't we expect that concept to be invoked in the actual deletion argument posted by Mr. Vernon? We do not. Nor do we see any reference to race. If it was such a "perfect comment" then why doesn't Mr. Vernon use that comment or related concepts in their deletion argument? Bus stop (talk) 18:12, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Bus stop - you're missing the point completely. Whether the AfD I started was correct or not, the editor has been bludgeoning discussions that he doesn't agree with (not to mention heading off to other editor's talk pages to annoy them), and he needs to stop doing it. This was quite clearly pointed out above. This is not about the validity or otherwise of a particular AfD or DRV. Black Kite (talk) 18:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
My comment at your and Vernon's talk page was not to "annoy you" -- it was to ask that you reconsider an off-topic comment about race that has absolutely nothing to do with notability guidelines. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Multiple users cited my arguments as persuasive enough to influence their vote, and frankly, it seems like the discussion is overwhelmingly favoring keep. Vernon has participated at that same discussion just as much as I have, though when an editor agreeswith you, it seems it isn't bludgeoning. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Black Kite similar behaviour in Talk:Ilhan Omar in the RfC. The same editor has been bludgeoning almost every vote in that RfC.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • "Vernon has participated at that same discussion just as much as I have". Some advice - I'd stop replying when you can't even count. You've made twenty-eight comments at that AfD. Mr.Vernon has made nine. I don't think I need to say anything else, so my point about your bludgeoning stands. Black Kite (talk) 18:55, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Black Kite: I have no idea where you are pulling those numbers from. I have about nine comments at that RfC, most of which are very short replies to pings, and Vernon has seven, including an extremely long counter-response to Levivich's analysis. I suggest you double check your work before accusing other editors of "not being able to count." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:01, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • You've edited it 28 times, Vernon 9. I dare say some might be typo fixes and so on, but, whatever. You made 25 edits to the DRV as well. Black Kite (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I made a few typo fixes for each comment - guilty of occasional typographical errors? Sure. Vastly more participation than Vernon? I don't think so. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:13, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Vernon has participated at that same discussion just as much as I have. Not according to ctrl+F. You have made the double amount of comments made by Mr. Vernon.[55][56]--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Your contributions to this discussion have been partisan and sloppy, SharabSalam. I really don't even want to engage with you on this, but note that Ctrl F captures a) pings (including yours) and other editors citing my username when agreeing with my arguments "Per Wikieditor19920..." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:50, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Wikieditor19920, omg, do you think I would search only for "Wikieditor19920"? I searched "Wikieditor19920 (talk)" see the screenshots.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Does that include my responses to yourfour comments you made under my vote demanding some further explanation? Enough. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

  • Bus stop, It was a response to Black kite question. Why this was covered widely in the media.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Black Kite—I pointed out that the reason given for your initiation of the AfD was detoured by the next comment by Mr. Vernon. It was a non sequitur. Mr. Vernon was asked on their Talk page to remove their comment, but they refused to do so. That is an out of place comment. If there was any cogency to that comment then Mr. Vernon or someone else would have told us that the article should have been deleted because the news tends to favor white female victims over black female victims. But we don't see that. An extraneous and inflammatory assertion should be removed from an AfD such as this one, especially appearing at the top of the discussion. They were literally responding to a question you posed, Black Kite. Bus stop (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Noted that you don't think the comment from Mr. Vernon applies. But, other editors are allowed their own opinions. Hasn't this been discussed enough? O3000 (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
O3000—I didn't ask Mr. Vernon to initiate a section on WP:AN/I about Wikieditor19920. If it has been "discussed enough" then maybe Mr. Vernon can request that this thread be closed. Bus stop (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
IMHO, the issue now seems to be bludgeoning. O3000 (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Whatever sticks, right? As discussed above, my participation at the AfD under discussion has been essentially equal to the user filing the report and mostly in response to pings. Further, my arguments persuaded - his did not. Another editor might see a problem with the fact that the filing editor a) engaged in improper canvassing for this report and b) this same editor's refusal to allow me to blank my own page per WP:OWNTALK. This has been an enormous waste of time, esp. considering the extremely long report does not name any specific basis for coming to ANI, and the reason that this discussion has become so drawn out is precisely because of the filing editor's canvassing. Note that I did not at any time ping Bus Stop to become involved in this conversation or otherwise notify him about it. Wikieditor19920 (talk)

The filer was incorrect in restoring an edit on your TP, and you were incorrect in striking the filer’s edit on the AfD. Your comment persuaded on your incorrect statement that GNG overrules NOTNEWS when GNG is a guideline and NOTNEWS is a policy. As to canvassing, this is not an example of bringing like-minded folk to an AfD or RfC. This is bringing involved people to an AN/I discussion and seems kosher to me. And, your whatever sticks, right is uncalled for. O3000 (talk) 19:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC).
Black Kite Objective3000, Wikieditor19920 has made more than 50 comments in Talk:Ilhan Omar#RFC: Should Anti-semitism accusations be included in the lede? (based on ctrl-F "Wikieditor19920 (talk)"). This is bizarre. However, I don't think it has reached the point that it is sanctionable but I would support a warning for this behaviour.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:54, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Just ignore that “RfC”. It is way overdue for closure, there is no way the consensus will change, and requests for closure are heavily backlogged. O3000 (talk) 01:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I agree with O3000 that that discussion is due for closure, though I think we'll disagree on how it should be closed. I haven't commented on that discussion in almost a month, and I think you'll see pretty extensive involvement in that discussion from several editors. SharabSalam is the type of user who will pester me multiple times at an AFD to expound on my vote [57][58][59][60] and then come to ANI and try to pile on accusations of bludgeoning for my replies at that same page. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Wikieditor19920, because your vote was "Speedy keep, snow" which is something that would require more clarification, and yet even if we removed the comments you made in response to me, the number of comments you made is still more than the number of comments made by -Mr. Vernon. Also, I am not the only one here accusing you of bludgeoning. There is also O3000 and Black Kite. I have seen the same bludgeoning by you in this discussion where you made 53 comments in that RfC including some three to four unindented bullet comments.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
SharabSalam, There is nothing in the sources that suggest that this is any different from any "murder" or "killing" that happens in the U.S. in daily basis. This is why wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS.? Your repeated pings and comments under my vote were not about "clarification," you were merely quibbling me over my vote. Which you also did to other editors at that page.[61][62]. When I reply, don't come to ANI and complain that I've "bludgeoned" the discussion by responding to you. This is a perfect illustration of why canvassing at ANI is prohibited. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:26, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

your incorrect statement that GNG overrules NOTNEWS... I'm not going to rehash our positions at the AfD here. Canvassing is equally inappropriate at ANI as at article discussion pages. User Vernon only pinged editors who either a) disagreed with me at the AfD and agreed with him, b) have had disagreements with me in the past, or c) both. You and SharabSalam are included under c). I have not had any prior interactions with Black Kite but he opened the AfD discussion and Vernon has been a strong advocate of deletion. Further, the message that he pinged with was a copy-paste, in rapid succession, on four users pages and completely non-neutral, making it clear that he was expecting your "support." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

There's an IP user here that's been vandalising several pages, all with pretty much the same vandal pattern. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 08:55, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

@C.Syde65: All edits of that user were made in a short period of time and were pretty much blatant vandalism. Why have you brought this case to ANI instead of reporting that user to AIV after giving him enough warnings? Well, it's very likely that the user won't make any more edits from that IP address, as a lot of IP addresses change every day, so any further discussion is rather aimless. Best, Tymon.r Do you have any questions? 09:46, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
@C.Syde65: BTW, when starting an ANI case you must inform all concerned parties on their talk pages. It applies also to unregistered (IP) editors. You didn't do that. I have done it for you as a courtesy. But as I said before – per WP:DENY – there's been absolutely no need to start this ANI discussion. Tymon.r Do you have any questions? 09:54, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Okay. It's just that I don't think anyone has told me about that before. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 09:58, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
WP:AIV deals with vandals fast, even minutes, but you need to warn them off first.--Chuka Chief (talk) 19:09, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Unprofessional blocking of innocent userEdit

I been falsely blocked because I restore some edits which I thought was productive towards to the article but it was done by someone who was evading their block numerous of times. The edits I done were these:






Ohnoitsjamie thought I was a sockpuppet of the user, Alex Neman and blocked me indefinitely, The fact they accused me of such things and blocked a innocent user is very frustrating and unprofessional coming from a user who been here for nearly one and a half decade. Even when he did unblock me, he still wasn't fully convinced I was innocent and stated "Likely false positive".

I understand why you shouldn't restore edits from someone who is blocked because it usually for a good reason, but the edit this user has done were legitimately good and I thought if it was fine if a genuine user added them instead of the blocked user. This is simply a exception since most of the time, the content the user restoring are unconstructive while these I listed simply aren't. Now I got this indef block permanently stuck on my block log and possibly lost a bit of credibility from other users. --Vauxford (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

While trying to avoid editing by proxy, at the same time, reverting errors back into an article is also obviously a problem. This isn't a contradiction that is likely to be resolved, ever. It just needs to be addressed according to the particular circumstances of each individual case. El_C 19:36, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
El_C He was notified, I done it as soon I was unblocked but he removed it. [68] --Vauxford (talk) 19:38, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Was already corrected less than a minute later — oh well. El_C 19:46, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
My bad then. --Vauxford (talk) 19:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
A word of advice, Vauxford. Very few people look at your block log, and those that do don't care whether you have been blocked before as long as you are making valuable contributions. There's no loss of credibility at all. Just don't worry about it. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:42, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Phil Bridger It still humiliating to be accused of sockpuppeting, let alone being blocked indefinitely because of a accusation from one admin and then that admin who unblocked me still doesn't buy your alford plea. I have been accused sockpuppeting in the past by certain users even though I wouldn't do such things. --Vauxford (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
There's always a danger that someone with an unjustified block in their block log might have it held against them later. "OMG! User:Suchandsuch was blocked for socking in 2014! They're obviously a bad hombre and automatically wrong now!!" Then you've got to explain the error, and the conversation gets derailed. Better to put in a 1 second block with an explanation that the first one was wrong. Reyk YO! 23:53, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Actually, I'm a big User:Ohnoitsjamie fan, but I think they got this one pretty wrong. I have certainly blocked an editor I thought was a sock only to discover I was wrong, but you really have to be more apologetic than this, both on the talk page, and in the block log. I'm also concerned that Vauxford was unblocked only on the condition they would not reinstate the edits; what is the policy basis for that? If they want to take ownership of that edit? Unfortunately, Vauxford, policy does not allow block log redactions, but if you'd like, and if Jamie's willing, they can block you for 1 second to annotate the block log to note that the previous block was in error. If they aren't willing, I'd be willing to (after hearing both sides, in case I'm missing something). --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I think that Phil's advice is sound. Speaking only for myself, I never look at another user's block log unless I have a reason to - which usually means that I think I'm going to have to block them, and want to know whether they've been blocked recently which might influence the duration. Floq's suggestion of a brief block to add an explanatory note to the record would probably work well; if you don't fancy that, and anybody ever goes fishing in your block log to try to stir up trouble, feel free to ping me and I'll explain what's wrong with what they're doing in simple language. GirthSummit (blether) 19:55, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Floquenbeam The 1 second block seem to be the best choice, I also think Ohnoitsjamie owe me a apology for this blunder of his. I still don't get why I can't claim ownership of these perfectly good edits which improves and update the article greatly. --Vauxford (talk) 19:58, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Because of WP:PROXYING, Vauxford. Anyway, from my own experience, there's not only a "decent chance" that Vauxford is not Alex Neman — the chances for that being true actually approaches zero. (Argh, sorry for the double negatives.) El_C 20:03, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Surely you mean that the chance Vauxford is not Alex Neman approaches 1, not 0. You've gotten lost in the double negatives. EEng 20:25, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
PROXYING is working at the direction of a banned user. We have no reason to doubt Vauxford when they say that's not the case. What PROXYING does say explicitly is that an established user can take complete responsibility for the content. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:34, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Not if it becomes a pattern, it taking place over a considerable time span — then, no. El_C 23:03, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I haven't verified whether your reinstatement of the IP edits was constructive (I'm not a car expert like you), but policy permits you to do what you did, and if the block was based on a pure technicality without looking at the substance of your edits, it was wrong. In addition, although I may not be a car expert, I am a sock expert, and the evidence was insufficient to block you for socking (on many levels that I won't go into here).--Bbb23 (talk) 20:05, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I still want to know whether I'm allow to restore the perfectly fine content and claim it as mine and have Ohnoitsjamie formally apologise and admit his mistake to me and actually acknowledge the fact I am NOT Alex Neman. --Vauxford (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

@Vauxford: For a very simplistic example, if an IP of a sock fixes something like a homonym error, where someone had "I except your proposal" instead of the correct "I accept the proposal" and that IP is reverted because it is a sock, any valid user is welcome to take responsibility of the edit themselves and restore the fix. Amaury • 21:04, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I would revert them back now but I'm too afraid I might be indef blocked again. Looking at the WP:PROXYING I considered the edits productive and I haven't been told to do this by the blocked user outside of Wikipedia, I have absolutely no contact with this user and I haven't interacted with him once on Wikipedia. --Vauxford (talk) 21:38, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Ohnoitsjamie's respond to this: [69], [70], [71]. Do admins really act this juvenile? He outright refuse to owe his mistake and thinks indefinitely blocking a user without actually any sort of background check or simple common sense as "trivial". --Vauxford (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) My suggestion: If you do want to restore them but are worried, you can leave a note on the talk page essentially reiterating what's in WP:PROXYING: That (1) you are restoring the edits because you believe they are constructive, (2) that you are not doing so at the direction of the blocked or banned editor, and (3) that you are taking personal responsibility for the edits. Then in the edit summary/ies for the edits restoring those edits, you state that you're taking personal responsibility for the edits and link the talk page thread. And if you're still concerned, post on Ohnoitsjamie's user talk letting him know what you're doing. It's a bit belt-and-suspenders, of course, but sometimes you've got to take that approach in this type of situation.
On some level, this just goes with the territory of editing Wikipedia: Sometimes you get mistaken for a sock, etc. Admins aren't expected to be perfect. Yes, it would be a good idea if Ohnoitsjamie apologized, particularly now that others have pointed out the original conclusion was erroneous. But there's no need to let it bother you. Your block log is not going to get blanked. That Floq put a notation in your block log is, from what I've seen, already above-and-beyond what is normally done here. I'm not saying you should be appreciative of your shitty situation, but getting this bothered about it isn't helping anybody, and doesn't make you look good either. (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
And let me just say one last thing: meatball:DefendEachOther is one of my favorite essays on approaching disputes on Wikis and elsewhere, and I consider required (or at least strongly suggested) reading in your situation. You've already convinced people that Ohnoitsjamie was mistaken, and they're sticking up for you. Let them try to talk to Ohnoitsjamie rather than continuing to complain for now. (talk) 22:23, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I've annotated the block log to clearly indicate that based on this discussion, that the block was wrong, and that the unblock conditions were not required, or based on policy, and are recinded. The only thing I'd recommend, @Vauxford:, is that if you decide to re-instate, you do so with a long edit summary that clearly explains why you think it's a good edit, and that clearly notes that you're taking responsibility for the edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I have every right to express my disgust when I been mistreated, even if it sounds like I'm acting spoiled. I don't mean to be and I know it against policy to delete block logs. I do regret demanding a apology but c'mon, it isn't that hard to say "I'm sorry that I wrongfully blocked you" and it water over the bridge, but because he hasn't done that (I highly doubt he would of done it if I didn't prompt him to) it is just creating aggression between me and this admin and plus, it just makes him come across as childish. This should of NEVER happens if he actually looked through my user page rather then indiscriminately block someone without restraint or second thoughts.
In conclusion, I don't mind walking with the annotation on my block log and I will sort out a edit summary with the said edits above, I just hope Ohnoitsjamie does the right thing now or later, because something like this shouldn't result just with a slap on the wrist. --Vauxford (talk) 22:27, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I reverted the edits with the disclaimer as well as linking to this ANI, hopefully that should do it. --Vauxford (talk) 22:47, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I haven't see anyone explain the core problem—dealing with long-term abusers (LTAs) is very difficult and very irritating. LTAs thrive on creating drama and it is unfortunate that you have been made part of it. Please let the matter rest and accept that Wikipedia, like everything else, is very imperfect. Johnuniq (talk) 23:12, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks Ohnoitsjamie is required to engage here and explain this block per WP:ADMINACCT? - Levivich (lulz) 04:57, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

No, you're not. I'm with you completely. This should be a bigger deal than it currently is. Rather than circle the wagons, I think Ohnoitsjamie needs to be held accountable. A bad block is one thing. A sysop accusing a long-term contributor of socking and going straight to the indef block is a horse of a different color.--WaltCip (talk) 13:22, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Hm. I don’t know if he’s required to participate under the terms of ADMINACCT, but he darn well should be here. This is really something that would’ve just required a simple mea culpa in his first response to the whole thing. That would’ve been enough for me. People make mistakes. That Vauxford is a long-term contributor isn’t particularly relevant in my view; the problem, and Johnuniq rightly puts it, is the whack-a-mole that LTAs turn administration into. Sometimes there’s collateral damage and in this case it was someone who didn’t just leave. (talk) 13:46, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
He has responded to Vauxford on his talk page, so I think ADMINACCT has been met. He has not apologized but has explained his reasons for not doing so.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:46, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I think you’re being charitable by describing that response as an explanation. I am still unclear as to why 1) the block was made in the first place, 2) the unblock was made with conditions (what was the policy basis for those conditions?), as opposed to without conditions, and 3) there was no apology with the unblock. “I don’t apologize on demand” kind of misses the point: one shouldn’t apologize on demand, but one should apologize-without being asked-when one makes a serious mistake like a bad block. Fundamental question: does Jamie realize he made a mistake? The important thing is that everyone learns from this going forward, but I’m still unclear as to whether Jamie thinks he made a mistake here. Levivich (lulz) 15:45, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I have observed over the past couple days that Ohnoitsjamie has been quite active fighting this very active and persistent sockfarm, but this is just a bit more than a regrettable false positive. Several checkusers have been involved already, and Ohnoitsjamie ought to know that if a sock account had been editing while the sockfarm has been active, we would have detected it. Furthermore, while edits by sockpuppets can be reverted, it's not required, and it's a long-recognized convention that such edits can be restored if a user has a good-faith reason for doing so; we are also required to assume good faith. So this is a few layers of bad block, but there's not much we can actually do about any of it since it's already been reversed. WP:ADMINACCT does not compel apologies, and seeking your pound of flesh is tendentious behaviour.
I propose that Ohnoitsjamie's unblock condition that Vauxford cannot restore the edits is formally vacated, and as a community we explicitly declare that Vauxford is unconditionally unblocked (someone can note that in the block log if they want). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:37, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Ivanvector, I agree here. No reason to forbid it considering it's not a absolute requirement that sock edits be reverted. No reason to say no to good edits, just make sure that Yauxford understands that their readdition of those edits brings all responsibility for them onto them. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 16:44, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Ivanvector Looking at the block log, hasn't Floquenbeam essentially already done that?-- P-K3 (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support formally vacating Ohnoitsjamie's unblock condition. I fully understand that Vauxford may feel pressure even if it's been pretty well recognized here that it was a bad block to begin with, so I think this is a valuable exercise. (talk) 17:02, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Remove editing restriction The user should not have been blocked at all, and the editing restriction they felt forced to accept under threat of being permanently blocked should be lifted ASAP. Lurking shadow (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment I find Jamie's conduct here appalling. Mistaking someone for a sock is a honest mistake but this doesn't get him off the hook. The editor in question has been around here three years and has over 5,000 edits. Some checking should have been done first. Jamie didn't. His unblock with a condition was a bad mistake. Anyone can restore a sock's edits. His refusal to apologize shows to me that Jamie don't think made any mistake. That's the third one he has made in this whole affair. Behavior like this from an administrator is unacceptable....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 18:23, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Jamie: Jamie has replied again[72] at his talk page. He is not backing down or taking any form of responsibility for what they did. I have never taken anything to ARBCOM in 13 years here. Always time for a first. His failure to explain himself here is very troubling....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:36, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
So he consider what I strongly thought was misconduct as "causing drama", like I'm the fault of all this? I admit this shouldn't of gone further then when I said "I reverted the edits with the disclaimer as well as linking to this ANI, hopefully that should do it.". Seem like other users have different thoughts about this situation, and I wanted to see how it goes without getting myself involved again (not wanting to be tendentious). William suggested that I should take this matter to Arbcom but unless this admin has been acting irrational at several occasions recently, I have no reason to do so, I don't even know where to start setting up something like that, it looks complicated. --Vauxford (talk) 02:16, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it's worth taking to ArbCom myself, unless there's evidence of a pattern of misconduct and you can plead this as the culmination of such a pattern. While single instances of misconduct can result in a desysop, I don't see this as one of those situations. And unless a lot has changed, ArbCom usually leaves routine admin discipline (tbans, ibans, routine blocks, trouting) to the dramaboards. In particular, at least from my perspective, the real disruptive part of the dispute is over—you're unblocked, there's a pretty clear consensus it was a bad block, it's pretty clear your unblock condition has been vacated, and it doesn't seem like Ohnoitsjamie protests or disputes any of that. He just isn't apologizing. And while I think that's pretty lame on his part, even after his explanation why, I don't see ArbCom twisting his arm on that. Like really, I'd just go back to business at this point. (talk) 02:36, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • i already voided the editing restriction yesterday. Maybe just once don’t turn something that’s been resolved for a day into a whole thing. —Floquenbeam (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
The initial block was based the Vauxford reinstating a series of edits that a prolific and recently active sockmaster (Alex Neman) had recently made, with no explanation as to why they were being reinstated. Though I saw that it wasn't a new account, but Neman had recently used a "sleeper" from 2017. I unblocked the user after concluding that it was false positive; asking that they agree to not resinstate the edits was based on a lingering concern that the socking user had asked others to reinstate his edits off-wiki (proxying). In hindsight, those restrictions were unnecessary and the unblock should not have been conditional upon them. I agree that those editing restrictions are no longer necessary, and in the future I'll leave it to others more familiar with the sockmaster to handle any future edits by that sock. I loathe drama, and would've been happy to try to further remedy had the complainant engaged with me directly to express their concerns about the conditions of the block and the block log itself, rather than immediately bringing the matter here. OhNoitsJamie Talk 21:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I think Vauxford, whom Jamie wrongfully blocked and wrongfully unblocked with a restriction, had no obligation to approach Jamie in a manner that Jamie finds acceptable. If an admin wrongfully blocks an editor and the editor’s response is “fuck you, asshole”, the admin should still apologize, because it’s the admin who did something wrong. The editor who is complaining about the admin doing something wrong is not doing anything wrong by complaining about the admin’s wrongdoing! I strongly reject the characterization of editors raising this very reasonable concern as seeking a pound of flesh. That said, I also don’t think this is arbcom worthy as long as everyone is on the same page that reinstating a sock’s edits (even a prolific sock) is not a blockable offense. The fundamental point is that PROXYING explicitly allows Vauxford to do what they did (and no, no edit summary declaring “I am taking responsibility for these edits” is required. That is already implied for every edit we make, and it’s ridiculous to expect editors to search histories and figure out who is and who isn’t a sock before making edits.) Levivich (lulz) 04:12, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Having said above that I don't think Vauxford should worry about this, I find Ohnoitsjamie's attidude to this appalling. Should anyone trusted with administrator rights find it so difficult to admit to a mistake? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:25, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
As a side note, while Alex Neman is definitely a very very active sockpuppeteer, he was blocked for 3RR, for adding too many pictures, and for being generally awful at communicating. However, many of his photos are very important (and continue to be in use) and a large proportion of his edits are completely useful - I don't think it's entirely fair to expect all users to be aware that they risk being blocked for reinstating what seem to be useful edits. Meanwhile, it can be very hard for admins dealing with this kind of user (the Alex Nemans, BullDosers, and EuroVisionNims). I also don't want to become a proxy for Alex Neman by reinstating his useful edits and I don't think anyone else does either. Anyhow.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:35, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Need eyes on an AfDEdit

We seem to have an issue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turing Research with regards to SPAs inappropriately editing/refactoring messages. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Onward to 2020 21:05, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Preface: I have a declared COI with George Mason University, so I'm not going to touch the deletion discussion. It's pretty blatant that the two keep !voters are undeclared COI, since the usernames match one of the professors in the group and a grad student in the group who published one of the cited blog posts. Both could use a gentle nudge from someone uninvolved in the AfD about proper formatting of deletion discussions and our rules about COI. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 21:17, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Nothing appears to get through to them and we're just going in circles. I've already more than discussed WP:COI with Akumar19. Praxidicae (talk) 21:19, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Yeah. They've got pretty bad selective reading. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Onward to 2020 21:22, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Praxidicae, oh, I completely agree that you've done that. "Gentle nudge" was an intentional understatement, what they really need is the application of a cluebat, but it needs to be from someone besides you (preferably someone of the administrative sort). creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 21:23, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Also, I think this is the first time I've actually had to invoke COI on myself. Exciting! creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 21:24, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
The only inappropriate editing or refactoring of a message I see is this. The rest appears to be a failed attempt at figuring out how signing works. (Plus the usual incomprehension of independent reliable sources, but that doesn't merit a trip to ANI.) —Cryptic 21:22, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Well to be fair Cryptic they both went back and resigned their unsigned sigs with other peoples usernames. See here before I cleaned it all up. Praxidicae (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that. Given the horrid example of sig formatting they saw, it's not surprising and clearly unintentional that they only managed to get the visible part right. Hence, "a failed attempt at figuring out how signing works". —Cryptic 21:27, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I would note that an undeclared COI is worthy of administrator attention, especially as they have been pointed at that policy several times already, and seem to be refusing to acknowledge it, as such it's intentional at this point and a clear ToU violation. Waggie (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't see any need to raise this issue here. The discussion will reach the correct result anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • In case people miss it, Fbatarse and Akumar19 have now been CU blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 15:50, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Moxy. behavioral issues, disruptive editing, attacking other editors, WP:NPOV, BRD, BATTLEGROUND. Also user:The Sr Guy.Edit

The filer of this complaint, User:LisztianEndeavors, has been indefinitely blocked by a checkuser as a sock of User:Chuckstreet. There does not seem to be anything more to do here. EdJohnston (talk) 05:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  • Main Article: Hungary and its talk page,
  • and Moxy's and my talk pages.

I'm not sure what to do with Moxy. He looked like a good editor, identifying cosmetic problems. I was working on the page, correcting some new and old problems, mainly WP:NPOV and BIAS stuff, and making sure the article data accurately reflected the cited source. Some math was clearly wrong in statistics, mainly. I also notice people deleting valid text for no good reason (including Moxy deleting images with positioning problems instead of just fixing the positioning), so I restored that as well. This article has a history of chronic abuses of BATTLEGROUND with NPOV and OWN and other assorted pushing of agendas. I'm only concerned with factual accuracy with cited reliable sources. I didn't actually know about the behavior history (which got it denied for GA nomination and laughed at by reviewers who were disgusted).

Moxy and I were having a decent discussion, though he seemed a little jumpy. He began to edit war over his claim that the date of the cited source for a census was 2011, when the source (an official Hungarian government agency website) clearly indicated 17 July 2013. I pointed this out more than once, and he finally posted on the talk page but at the same time made another edit change (disruptive). I answered the post, again informing him of the correct data per the cited source. However, he had already made another two edits I hadn't seen yet.

Those two edits were these: all of a sudden he apparently completely flipped out, and spewed what sounded like a threat and a definite ultimatum to me with 4-letter words in the thread on his talk page: DIFF. The second edit, made around the same time: he made a horrible reversion of the article back several dozen edits, obliterating several users' edits including mine and his: DIFF. I reverted that totally disruptive edit. His edit summary there and also elsewhere was beginning to look like gibberish, as if he was stuttering writing. His sentences were full of typos which he vainly tried to correct, like he was typing too fast, and couldn't be bothered to write coherent sentences.

I then put a warning on his talk page about his disruptive editing, his attacks on me with silly ultimatums, and his massive reversion/obliteration: DIFF. I talked about what he had done, and suggested he just take a break, calm down his anger, and come back later so we can work on making the article better together.

He wasn't responsive. He was completely stammering in his posts, threatening ANI or 3RR, and sounding very irrational. His talk page, the article talk page, my talk page, and edit summaries were borderline nonsense. He made yet another disruptive edit reverting my reversion back to his huge disruptive edit from before: DIFF. His edit summary was diverting as well, blathering about ANI or 3RR threats when HE was clearly in the wrong (this I've noticed is a typical tactic by disruptors). Someone else reverted him this time (one of the users whose former edits he mass obliterated).

There's also another disruptor, User:The Sr Guy, who mainly is pushing deliberately inaccurate information (and inaccurate and confrontational edit summaries) for NPOV and BIAS, some of it definitely controversial, contributing to the general BATTLEGROUND mileu of the Hungary article and the related article Hungarian Greek Catholic Church and ALL of his edits are like that and all have been reverted by various people, mostly me recently, or his edits with fake data have been merely corrected. He's specifically editing portions of sections on religion, and skewing statistics with fake and biased data not supported by reliable sources. He jumped in to the threads with Moxy and my warnings and suggestions and seems to take Moxy's side, but I think he's just provocating. I've ignored him (he posts in the middle of my posts, breaking up my post, not good).

The Sr Guy doesn't edit very often, but today he did put back three of his same edits which I already reverted, one in Hungarian Greek Catholic Church and two in Hungary. I reverted them again with a warning to discuss in the talk page, knowing that he won't because his edits are bogus (unless he gets meatpuppets/sympathizers/disruptors). The warning I gave him on his talk page: DIFF

I've filed this complaint rather than escalate further, since Moxy is unable to be communicated with. I'm not sure what to do in this situation. I've never filed a complaint before, so please advise. This takes up more time than I would normally allow, and the Hungary article isn't the main article I work on, I just happened to step into a pit of vipers there, and I don't like wars or user behavior like this from Moxy.

As I write this, Moxy has requested the page to be locked and an Admin has done so, locking it for a week. Fine with me, as all of the troublesome problems have been corrected and Moxy (and The Sr Guy) have been reverted to the way the article was before. Can you extend that protection indefinitely? The page already has insufficient protection and there's really no one who watches over it and I don't want to take on that responsibility, I don't feel right in this whole matter. It's kind of scary.

BTW, Moxy's issue seems to be just the source date for the religion census. Such a simple little thing he's getting all bent over. I don't see any resolution even if he were to discuss in the talk page, since 17/07/2013 is the date of the source and that's that. No getting around it. I think The Sr Guy is more of a problem on that level because he WON'T discuss and his agenda is just a pushy one. Besides, you notice the subject is religion here: one of the two things that causes people to war on this planet (the other being politics), and I stay away from those subjects.

Wait, another diff. As I write, Moxy is posting incomprehensible gibberish in the talk page: DIFF. A series of edits with a huge post or two in the threads: he still can't write comprehensible sentences, and then a giant string of garbage data filling up half the page, and even an image. There's another user in there (the one that reverted Moxy recently) who also has posted something way too large, and these people pinging demanding my attention (they're like children). Moxy just wants more to complain about (like the image he wanted me to put in the infobox so I did). I'm not going to answer any queries to me or anything else until you resolve this. How about lock the talk page too? And how do I stop Moxy from posting on my talk page? (I'm archiving it all.) It's like I've suddenly been appointed the God of the Hungary article, and my minions (or my children) are annoyingly begging me for answers to imaginary problems. I don't want this job! Can you get rid of them all for me? So I can be in peace and do my work. I just want to tell them all to shut the F up, but I'm too polite for that.

LisztianEndeavors (talk) 23:52, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, there's no way to make other editors stop trying to collaborate with you. You can try dispute resolution, though. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:06, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Would you present us with the census source? GoodDay (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Said incomprehensible gibberish clearly shows that the census data is from 2011, and not 2013. For those wanting to confirm, open up [73] and then open up Although it is tagged as 2013, it does not contain any data for 2013. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:12, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

This is not the place for discussions about the Hungary article or any controversies. This is a complaint about two users' behavior. People posting here please take your discussion to the appropriate talk page. I personally am not a guardian of that page, nor even a frequent editor. In fact, my edits are done and I have other articles I regularly attend to. If you need help with problems with the Hungary page, please refer to Talk:Hungary, and I'm sorry but I can't help you here. There are ongoing discussions in that talk page on the subjects you appear to be concerned about. Be aware that the Hungary article is protected, so discussion in its talk page is both necessary and appropriate. This current thread here is about a user complaint which is currently waiting for Admins to address. Thank you for your consideration. LisztianEndeavors (talk) 10:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Have no clue why this editor wants to put a year of 2013 for 2011 census. Still waiting on a reply as to why they think it's from 2013 despite the source saying 2011. Hard to move forward when the editor is not able to read the source properly. What can be said?--Moxy 🍁 14:52, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
What exactly is this report about? A complaint that editors aren't agreeing with you? GoodDay (talk) 23:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

TO ADMINS: UPDATE. I am having to continually update this complaint, since Admins are not taking action. Users are harassing me in this ANI complaint now, as you can see. They pretend they can't read the complaint and are insulting. The Sr Guy is still making the same repeated disruptive edits to Religion in Hungary, after already been reverted twice before. Same violations as I've already outlined in my complaint. DIFF1 and DIFF2.

Moxy continues to attack me on Talk:Hungary, but his language skills are so insufficient (his "them" and "they" refers to me). Moxy and others, like GoodDay are confrontationally abusive. They make jokes at my expense. NinjaRobotPirate is another barrel of laughs. Mr rnddude and others like especially Moxy, the main initial subject of this complaint, continually try to discuss imaginary non-issues, that is, intimating a "dispute" where there is none, again directed at me as if they're children trying to get something out of their father, and I'm the father.

This is not what I signed up for, to nursemaid a bunch of immature users causing havoc and being as insulting as some teenagers might (though my own two teenagers don't behave like this). I find it astounding that WP allows this sort of thing to go on unchecked. I'm tired of having to monitor these two articles to revert vandals, trolls, abusive editors, disruptive, destructive, and unconstructive editing, WP:NPOV bias pushing editors who put up fake statistics that show an inability to do simple math, and slanted data designed to further their deceptive agendas. Both these pages need permanent administrative protection, and they need someone responsible to monitor them regularly (not me! I have too much work to do in my project pages), and troublemakers need to be summarily blocked and be done with it. Please respond now with action citing these users I've identified for their disruptions; do something constructive to take care of this situation please. I don't need this abuse and Wikipedia articles especially don't need this abuse either. LisztianEndeavors (talk) 00:12, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

  • I've blocked LisztianEndeavors for one week.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:26, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
I think he/she may require a mentor. GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Read over the discussion at LE's talkpage. What's he going on about, him & his wife not feeling safe on Wikipedia? This is a head scratcher. GoodDay (talk) 04:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Looks like Chuckstreet (talk · contribs) to me. Combination of List of compositions by Franz Liszt and bizarre rants. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:39, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
He went from being an old man living alone & scared of the FBI, to a fellow who is married. Entertaining stuff, to be sure. GoodDay (talk) 04:53, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Wego99 (talk · contribs) repeatedly inserts claims on Sheth and Shah (surname) that they are related, without citation or discussion. He has now taken to removing citations without explanation. Please would an uninvolved editor give him suitable advice. – Fayenatic London 08:39, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Notified (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Pinpointed by GSSEdit

Hi, admin. I am here to raise concern over my articles being purposefully proposed for deletion (Synergis and Kowloon Development Company) within 5 minutes. I don't know the motive behind the unreasonable consecutive proposed deletions of my articles (which I've already objected because they comply with GNG) of GSS and whether it is because he is not satisfied about my vote in AfD discussions. I wish you to notify him that his actions are disruptive I tell him to STOP targeting my contributions. Thanks a lot.--WikiAviator (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Since GSS is a new page reviewer, my initial guess is that they came across those pages while doing new page review, concluded that they were not notable companies, and tagged them with PROD. Looking at the two pages you linked, neither of those demonstrates that the subject meets GNG and I would have probably either draftified them or proposed deletion if I'd reviewed them. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 14:05, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I generally concur with this.
@WikiAviator: If you have access to sources that meet Wikipedia’s standards for notability (see WP:CORPDEPTH for excellent guidance) please do focus on digging them up during the AfD period rather than pursuing this claim of misconduct... because I’m not seeing any misconduct. While there’s sometimes disagreement over whether new page patrollers should seek deletion for pages on notability or A7 grounds within a few minutes of page creation, as far as I know it’s not against the rules. Particularly when there’s an assertion of a WP:BEFORE search done by the person nominating the page for deletion, as GSS has done.
Once again, please find sources that meet WP:CORPDEPTH and provide them in the appropriate place. If you do it within the AfD period the pages shouldn’t be deleted, but even if it takes you a little longer they can be recreated. (talk) 14:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
As a non-admin who used to check the new pages myself, I doubt it was strictly coincidental new page patrolling, as the pages were created a couple days apart. However, the first one that GSS proposed for deletion was Synergis, which is weakly sourced for notability (a single third-party source from 17 years ago, plus the company's own annual report and one line in a book from the stock market that the company trades under) and had already been tagged for conflict of interest. That combination makes it reasonable to check if we have a problematic page creator. Upon seeing Kowloon Development Company, which has weaker sourcing, I'm not surprised GSS was moved to propose that for deletion as well (references are a Bloomberg dead link, a "webb-site" database, and an announcement of a stock release.} Neither proposal for deletion is unreasonable, and even WikiAviator's initial defense of Kowloon on the AfD page is that "sources could be found". It looks to me like the problem is that WikiAviator is creating weakly-sourced pages, not that GSS is noticing them. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
NatGertler, It is common for a new page patroller to check an author's other creations to spot for possible wP:COI. So the fact that 2 of his pages were nominated is not shocking at all. The shocking thing here is ridiculous amount of bad faith accusations against an NPP reviewer. Based on my own discussion [74] with WikiAviator, it appears to me that he has trouble understanding our notability standards, and shows WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality against others. Perhaps this is a WP:CIR issue and other conduct issues of the filer must be investigated. ⋙–DBigXray 15:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Toomim and giving a voice to the alt-rightEdit

Toomim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

During the discussion at Talk:Race and intelligence, I commented that it was not important for Wikipedia that the voices of "conspiracy theorists, alt-righters, neo-Nazis, casual racists, anti-semites, etc" be heard, with User:Toomim immediately objecting [75]. A bit of a back & forth with NightHeron followed, as the latter attempted to convey to Toomim that alt-right was not equivalent to "right-wing" nor "conservative". NightHeron further clarified that "the term alt-right refers to the fringe wing of the right": [76] & [77]. In response, Toomim posted:

  • The alt-right is a political orientation that describes many millions of people. If you are arguing to block these people from editing Wikipedia, then you are in gross violation of Wikipedia's core principle of NPOV, and someone might report your account to administration. Tread carefully. [78].

For reference, Toomim's post I was responding to was this: [79]. The above statement advocating on behalf of the alt-right was concerning to me, given that the first sentence in Wikipedia's Alt-right article reads:

What do admins and other users think? Do we want to provide a voice for the alt-right on Wikipedia? --K.e.coffman (talk) 16:05, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Not an ANI matter. EEng 16:22, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) To be clear, Toomim also identifies as being liberal. It may be that you're in disagreement as to who the alt-right encompasses. Either way, I don't read Toomim's post as desiring to "give a voice" to a particular political group (let alone "advocating on behalf" of the alt-right), but that anonymous editors should still be allowed to edit within the topic area. In fact, the more I read into the context of Toomim's post, the more I find the entire premise claimed in this thread to be disingenuous. Even taking your complaint at face value, I'm not sure what sort of administrator intervention you're requesting. (talk) 16:30, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • The concerns of K.e.coffman are real, and are not "disingenuous," as this IP-editor claims. I'm not taking a position about what, if anything, can/should be done about it. But Toomim's participation in the Race and intelligence talk page has been problematic. At one point in order to explain why Davide Piffer's writings on race and intelligence are not RS, I quoted from RationalWiki: Piffer is a research fellow of the Ulster Institute for Social Research, a racist institute founded by Richard Lynn that publishes racist pseudoscience. In response, Toomim accused me of "McCarthyism" and conducting a "witch hunt," and said my behavior was "morally reprehensible." All this for opposing the use of an alt-right source. NightHeron (talk) 17:40, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
    • That’s fine, if there are other, serious problems with this person’s behavior, then bring it up in the OP instead of this out-of-context quote in a disagreement about whether an article should be permanently semi-protected. (talk) 18:30, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
      • You appear to be mistaken, the behavior happened all over the talk page not just in that one discussion. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
        • Then it should’ve been in the OP. If this person is being disruptive it should’ve been brought up in the OP. My analysis is based on the isolated quote and the reasonable interpretation of it. But I don’t buy the claim that opposing semi-protection means someone supports giving extremists a soapbox. I’ll note that in said discussion he never said that he supports letting extremists have a “voice” through Wikipedia. That said, I think it’s entirely appropriate to give a warning under AP2 given the clear argument that conservative viewpoints are being silenced in violation of NPOV. Whether a topic ban is appropriate is a different matter and requires more evidence than OP provided. (talk) 18:41, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
          • I interpret the OP as citing the entirety of Talk:Race and intelligence as evidence and then offering specifics on the most egregious statements. I may of course be mistaken in that interpretation. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
            • Diffs of misconduct are necessary, especially to establish a pattern. A vague wave to a talk page is entirely unhelpful and insufficient. All OP provided are a few diffs in one dispute over semi-protection that, for reasons I’ve already stated do not seem that “egregious”. For one, despite everyone’s claims to the contrary, he doesn’t seem to have said anything regarding giving anybody a “voice”. Yes, he made a claim that conservative voices are being silenced in favor of liberal voices, and that deserves a warning. But I don’t read his comment as meaning extremist viewpoints should be presented with equal precedence. This was after all a dispute about semi-protection of the talk page and not content in the article. (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
              • What do you think of these assertions[80]? Note that they are under a completely different section which is a dispute over article content. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
                • Unconstructive and unhelpful on his part. (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • WP:NONAZIS. Bishonen | talk 18:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC).
  • Giving a voice to the alt-right would be violating wp's policy on NPOV and WP:V. If these tools want a voice they should go to Facebook or 4chan or whatever cesspool they've made home now. Praxidicae (talk) 18:14, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
    • No opinion either way and I understand the NPOV part, but how would it violate V? Also have we established Toomim is a Nazi? PackMecEng (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
      • For the same reason using someones personal research posted to their blog would violate WP:V? We can't rely on such sources for facts. Alt-right are masters of twisting fact. Gold level mental gymnasts, I'd say. Praxidicae (talk) 18:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
        Gold level mental gymnasts, I'd say – Can't agree with you there. They're actually quite clumsy at it, but their audience's critical faculties are so dull that it doesn't matter that what they're saying makes no sense. EEng 22:28, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
        True facts. PackMecEng (talk) 22:29, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • The discussion at Race and intelligence has been problematic, Toomim has dismissed other user's concerns while demanding that their own concerns be treated with utmost seriousness. The accusations being leveled against other edits of McCarthyism etc are also inappropriate. Whether or not they themselves are a member of a fringe group they are certainly giving voice to much more fringe/pseudoscientific opinions than would normally be allowed per WP:FRINGE. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • This is fairly easy, actually, an WP:ARBAP2 topic ban seems most appropriate. I feel like it's very obvious why, but just in case: we don't give any group a "voice", we repeat reliable sources. Giving fringe groups a "voice" is not the purpose of Wikipedia or any encyclopedia; if you want your group to have a "voice", start a blog. Debating a group's prevalence in quality sources in good faith is fine, but insisting you're right and demeaning anyone who disagrees is what we have discretionary sanctions for. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree that nothing should be stated in Wikipedia's voice that supports the alt-right opinion, just as it should not support other opinions. WP:NPOV means that we are neutral, i.e. that we express no opinion, not that we create some sort of balance between different extremist positions. This means that we don't base article content on any sources that disregard the facts so as to make their opinion seem right. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • There is no viewpoint screening in Wikipedia. However, if alt-right editors fail to adhere to WP:NPOV and WP:V with tendendious editing, they can be blocked just like anyone. What is the point of this thread, to chastise Toomim for his definition of alt-right? The article says that the term is ill-defined so it might be unwise to continue that discussion here. Talk:Race and intelligence has 100 archive pages, so it might be a good idea to stop using it as a forum to discuss things like this. --Pudeo (talk) 20:04, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I will note that the overwhelming majority of Toomim's total edits are to the Race and intelligence topic area and in just the past several months, despite having an account from 2007. XTools shows 163 live edits, with 138 edits to this topic area. That is concerning to me from an WP:SPA perspective, though as WP:SPA notes it's not cause for concern entirely of itself. I also find their support for sourcing frequently used by those considered "alt-right" to be concerning. Toomim may be a well-intentioned editor just being WP:POINTy through unnecessary wikilawyering, but the being POINTY is tenditious editing and is a concern. As such, their overall behavior is stretching AGF a bit far, IMHO. A few folks have suggested that this isn't the correct venue, I believe that to be incorrect - the talk pages are for content-related issues, true - however, there is a case put forth for conduct issues which would be appropriate to discuss here and discussing it on the various talk pages would seriously detract from already contentious and problematic discussions happening there. Waggie (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • SPA is more troubling, editors like that typically have an agenda. It may be spam, a conflict of interest, it doesn't matter. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 02:20, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Toomim does appear to be rather straightforwardly arguing that the alt-right deserves a voice on Wikipedia, that it's not fringe, and that we should ignore NONAZIS because it is not a policy. Is this really a "good faith" editor who should be editing fucking Race and Intelligence? ~Swarm~ {sting} 02:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
And the alt-right has a history of pretending to be something else (hell, they started off as Nazis pretending to be something else). Anyone want some Flavor-Aid before they try to argue with this? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

OWN-y editor at Chris NothEdit

Nothing more to do here. User will make no more edits to the article for the next 7 days without a prior talk page consensus for their change. EdJohnston (talk) 04:33, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

At the discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Chris Noth regarding WP:BLP and fannish-trivia issues at Chris Noth, not a single editor agreed with these edits by User:Khawue and the consensus was that they were inappropriate. Nonetheless, Khawue continues to add portions of this fannish, tabloidy content about the subject's dating life here. He has been WP:OWNing the article, reverting consensus-derived edits not only by me but by another editor here. Despite discussions at Talk:Chris Noth and at his own talk page, and consensus by all other editors at the BLP Noticeboard, he appears to be intransigent about this dating gossip.-- (talk) 17:28, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

You can see this is not true. Reliable sources were used to discussion of significant relationships. This all began with suddenly 20 edits from an IP address on Feb 19 with no discussion. Then I had to repeatedly address false claims that birthdate of Noth's son was unsourced, etc. as you can see in the talk page and also my own talk page as well as aggressive and uncivil blanket statements about me. I tried to explain my approaches but was overwhelmed. I stated a number of times willingness to discuss the issues and the details but they were unwilling. I provided sourced, valid arguments but did not get detailed discussion from the these two editors as a response & ‎2601:188:180:b8e0:65f5:930c:b0b2:cd63, just mostly reactive statements. I have asked for Admin help on the BLP noticeboard.
-Khawue (talk) 17:50, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
A third editor, User:LakesideMiners, has now removed Khawue's contentious edits.-- (talk) 19:40, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
"the birthdate of Noth's son" does not remotely belong in the article, per WP:BLPPRIVACY regardless of how it is sourced. And neither does tabloid gossip about allegations of abusive relationships. [81] Khawue might do well to spend less time edit-warring gossipy content int biographies, and more time learning about how such biographies are actually written. (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
You can in the talk page "the birthdate of Noth's son" was placed by who insisted it was a BLP violation not to have a reference to it, and he added the People magazine ref and an Instagram post as refs for it. I've changed it back to January 2008, from the Oprah ref. I did not cite tabloids for abuse allegations. Yes I have reviewed how biographies are written.-Khawue (talk) 19:46, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Birthdates require citing, and children are a part of biographies. See, for one of countless examples, Kim Kardashian#Health and pregnancies. -- (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
No, birthdates of non-notable people don't belong in Wikipedia articles, regardless of sourcing. (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes I agree with User talk: Also, the last reversions were by only. Re: the reason for Orion's name was not a contentious edit nor was it a BLP and WP:PRIVACY issue, nor was it "excessive detail about the non-subject's pregnancy." There subject cites the pregnancy complication as the reason for his involvement in a high profile fundraiser.
Chris Noth knows all too well how scary it can be as a parent when things go wrong with your newborn child.
The Sex and the City star and his girlfriend had complications when their son was born 16 months ago...the experience clearly affected the actor and it’s part of the reason he’s taking part in the second annual One Night Live charity event taking place at the Air Canada Centre on Thursday.
The star-studded event features performances by Sheryl Crow, Sting, and the Canadian Tenors. Noth serves as MC for the night, the proceeds of which will go to the Women & Babies Program at Sunnybrook. -Khawue (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
“You don’t hear too much about pediatrics or this kind of hospital for pre-term babies being on the front list of benefits or for raising money. Having just had a son who’s a year old and having had complications when we were at the very beginning, I know how scary it is for parents. When you’ve got an institution like this that’s impeccable and first rate, it’s something you want to cherish,” Noth explained." -Khawue (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Also, Noth "credits his partner...for saving their baby boy after she was told the child wouldn't live" is noted in the Contact Music ref and the other refs. Tara's role in the incident is significant. There are things missing from the article like a part on charity work, which could help provide more context and rationale for edits but I have posted links above and also in the talk page and my own talk page on Feb 19 to explain but these were not acknowledged. As I've said, would better to discuss in detail each issue one at a time without blanket personal comments and ignoring of my points for less of this back and forth.-Khawue (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that this edit [82] by Khawue violates WP:3RR. (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

And all the edits by [[83]] [[84]] -Khawue (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Possibly. Haven't looked. 'Someone else is doing it too' isn't a valid reason to ignore WP:3RR. (talk) 21:36, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
There's not much to add to's report, except to reiterate. The issue may be a simple WP:CIR matter, but it's manifest in a series of willfully obstinate edits and lengthy threads at the article talk page and (now two) noticeboards, which require at least a half hour to sift through. Refuses to get that this is an encyclopedia, not Playbill. So the conclusion is less that this is a competence issue than a determination to steamroll a half dozen editors, not to mention WP:BLP policies and basic WP:NPOV guidelines. One of the more impressive WP:OWNERSHIP examples I've seen in a while. Requesting either a block or topic ban. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I posted on the talk page and the notice boards in response to other users also lengthy post and comments on numerous things. I posted here the quotes from the articles as I had just linked to it before on Feb 19 and it was not addressed in the talk page about the birth notability so it seemed that it was accepted but apparently not. I have explained many times that I am fine with working on trimming the details as I have been as I went along. I worked on different parts of the article, every few days so it was patchwork, also had extra details for WP:NPOV. I have not tried to steamroll anyone. I responded to constructive feedback, replied respectfully, tried to refine my understanding and made modifications e.g. on the BLP noticeboard my conversation with Zaereth and continuing today to modify statements about abuse allegation. I specifically asked you for your suggestions about rewording two sentences about the American Buffalo (play) which you misquoted and gave you the correct website with the actual article (I accidentally said and you used that to claim WP:PUFFERY) and you refused to engage, suddenly claiming WP:OWN. Zaereth said it was not a WP:BLP issue and I have not violated any WP:BLP. The initial claim that I violated WP:BLP by removing sources about his son's birthdate was false as I noted on the talk page and my talk page since posted on both on Feb 19 with the same claims. The Oprah ref provided January 2008 and was the at the end of second sentence following WP:REPCITE.
As stated, there were a number of rapid edits starting on Feb 19 by instead of discussing each issue so many things go lost and back and forth but just the general assumption that I don't know the policies and ignoring my valid points. Some things like MOS:SAMESURNAME that on Feb 19 I was accused of violated MOS about, I thought I already resolved, but then back and forth today with all the other edits when finally saw the ref with the Noth surname that I already posted on the talkpage on Feb. 19 and seemed to accept it. There has been obstinate refusal to just work out issues one at a time instead just blanket judgements and details get lost.-Khawue (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I was asked to look at the section in the article and did so without seeing what was in the history or on the talk page or here. I am not surprised to find so many people taking issue with the whole Orion thing, for instance. Having read over the talk page, where at least four if not more editors all disagree with Khawue, I can only chime in with those who tried to prune the article. If Khawue continues, they should be made to edit something else--this might be a nice occasion for a partial block, for edit warring, likely BLP violations, trivializing the BLP, and wikilawyering all over the talk page to keep celeb trivia in an encyclopedic article. Drmies (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
    • Thank you, Drmies. Much of your changes were quickly reverted. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
      • No, I did not revert changes. I provided a simpler source for the full name from OOOM as well as restored the Playbill ref for her full name with Noth surname which was accepted by today after no discussion since February 19 when I posted the sources that disproved his claim that I violated MOS:SAMESURNAME. This was not disputed, nor her employment as a bartender. [85]
      • Then I added that Tara's play, co-produced by Noth, would have it's world premiere at Berkshire Theatre Festival, which was not noted before although it is mentioned in the ref for full name [86]
      • Then I added the reason for moving to Sherman Oaks, L.A. for logical continuity from Theatre section which states preference to live in NY and that he still spends time in NY in a separate sentence with the source: OOOM interview: "Noth still spends a lot of time in New York" and also the SMH article from 2008 [[87]]
      • before there was one sentence about dividing time between LA and NY and reason for living in LA.
      • No, there were not "at least four if not more editors" disagreeing with the Orion birth details. On February 19, false claim that I violated BLP by having the January 2008 unsourced but it was in the Oprah ref the second sentence after it, which they did not see and put their own source with the exact date. I also provided links briefly as to the significance to refute WP:INDISCRIMINATE After that there were no reply until TODAY, removed it with their edits. Then I restored it after disagreed with having the exact date. Later Isaidnoway posted on the talk page about not having any details about minor children to which I replied with my sources explaining significance well as Angelina_Jolie#Children showing an example with the same level of detail. There was no further reply. It was a discussion and I could see both approaches.
      • The MOS:SAMESURNAME issue as I stated above, after February 19 after I replied with my sources to disproved violation of that, there was no reply. So again I thought it was resolved until edits again today but then accepted it.
      • No I did not violate or trivialize BLP. I did not "wikilawyering all over the talk page", I provided the information that I had and my perspective. -Khawue (talk) 03:32, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
      • No it is false that "Much of your changes were quickly reverted." Drmies, this is a false claim again. You can see the 3 things I did above. I added a few things as mentioned above and left the out the details about the children. Drmies removed the Playbill article confirming Tara's use of the Noth surname [[88]] with comment "article doesn't say they're having an affair, and it's unnecessary" not understanding that it was for MOS:SAMESURNAME described above, NOT to say they are having an affair, and said her play "needs more than a workshop for inclusion" [[89]] so I added the world premiere. -Khawue (talk) 04:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
On User:Khawue's talk page I've suggested they agree to take a voluntary break from editing the Chris Noth article or its talk page for a period of seven days. This might allow the various disagreements to settle down and avoid the need for any admin action. It concerns me that Khawue seems to be edit warring and that almost their sole interest since arriving on Wikipedia in January is editing this one article. EdJohnston (talk) 04:53, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
EdJohnston Due to limitations, I found it easiest to just focus on the one article which hardly had any references when I started. I did not do it for any advocacy or promotion which is what WP:SPA is concerned about. I have followed NPOV trying to get different perspectives which added details and trimming after I add as well. I have said may times I accept reducing the details. Every few days I would add things after coming upon information from research. I have been online more regularly dispute started since Feb. 19 numerous edits from an IP address where there was false claims about MOS and BLP violations which I posted about on the talk page and my talk page which I felt were "wikilawyering". I posted sources to prove my point on Feb 19 but maybe they were not seen based on edits today although the MOS:SAMESURNAME was eventually accepted by in the edits today even though I already replied with the same reference on Feb 19 on the talk page and thought it was resolved. After Feb. 19 I was just posting in the talk pages and notice boards where discussions were started, focusing on one topic of the article and then early this morning 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 and started numerous edits on the article.
So I have documented what has happened above. There were a lot of communication problems and misunderstandings and false claims. I am not intending to edit war. Back to the recent edits, you can see above, I explained the statement above to Drmies "Much of your changes were quickly reverted." is false. You can see I accepted the lower level of details and did not put my 3 edits back. I would want to discuss these 3 edits with you and Drmies. I want to be able to discuss specifics one at a time instead of blanket statements. It is not true that I put the birth details back against 4 people as explained above. -Khawue (talk) 05:33, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Khawue: please disclose both your conflict of interest and, per the terms of use, who is paying you for your edits. Many thanks, ——SN54129 06:22, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • It's like dealing with some climate denier--we are being trolled. The SPA makes a bunch of edits and inserts all the kinds of stuff we routinely do not insert, using gossipy sources and synthesis, reverts and reverts, clamors all over half a dozen talk pages and noticeboards, and we just let them do it? Drmies (talk) 14:08, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I have warned User:Khawue they may be blocked for edit warring if they make any further edits at Chris Noth during the next seven days unless their changes have received a prior consensus on the article talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • EdJohnston Okay sure. I am not trolling. When I mentioned Drmies above I was explaining the 3 edits which were none of the things he was mentioning. I always used WP:RS and not synthesis, and I acknowledge I wrote too many details and accepted trimming down. As I mentioned above and in talk page I saw Angelina_Jolie#Children as an example of different level of detail, there is discretion about this. I saw reverts as well of things I thought were resolved. I have also shortened sentences e.g. removed references to the West Hollywood condo [[90]]. So that is my perspective, it's not that I wish to re-insert details that were removed.-Khawue (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • EdJohnston I have read other bio pages and seen inclusion of details that Drmies objects to the spouse's occupation when they met, pregnancy complications, allegations, that the person divides their time between two cities, etc. e.g. mentioned Kim_Kardashian#Personal_life which has a subsection on Health and Pregnancies, Paris Robbery, etc. I did not insert "all the kinds of stuff we routinely do not insert". The sources I used were not unusual or "gossipy" compared to other celebrity articles. I think blanket statements and kneejerk reactions were made that have led to a certain bias.-Khawue (talk) 19:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Whether or not you want to call it trolling, the badgering is relentless, and moves from one talk page to the next [91]. EdJohnston, I saw this coming days ago in the user's behavior. Nothing short of a block will stop this delightful train. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I have warned the editor to drop the topic, and that a block is likely if they don't. JBW (talk) 21:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
EdJohnston JBW I was not badgering Melcous. That day EdJohnston had posted on my talk page a concern that I was edit warring and if I would voluntarily not edit or post on the article talk page for 7 days. Then I saw Melcous did 3 edits, I thanked them, pointed out a few things that I saw in each edit as they came and they thanked me. I asked specifically about four items missing with quotes from a featured article Julianne Moore that were maybe too long and it got lost what I was asking about. It just to show an example that for a role you have a brief description, brief description of the reception and maybe preparation for the role is not unusual (two of the missing items, I gave brief sentences as possible replacements), any awards (one of the missing items). The other item deleted was Noth went to college the following year. I will try to limit size of the quotes. As I replied to you on my talk page, I was not hostile or aggressive or trying to "impose" in any way as I explained to you [92] [93] I think a lot of things are getting lost in these talk page communications. I have done any edits and agreed to get consensus on the article talk page before any edits. I have not posted on the article talk page. Given the situation it I thought it was best to talk directly with Melcous as they were the one making the changes.-Khawue (talk) 00:43, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • EdJohnston With regards to the dispute with Drmies above "inserts all the kinds of stuff we routinely do not insert" ad the dispute with my last 3 edits and his edits before that (Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Media_biographies)Kate_Winslet#Personal_life has all the elements the Drmies removed on his own accord, and is much longer e.g. occupation of spouse & where they met, notable past relationship (one sentence), name of the two children
  • KW: "Disillusioned by the way the British tabloids portrayed her personal life, Winslet moved to New York.[78]..."In a 2015 interview, she described how much she enjoyed living in the countryside.[163]"
  • ->CN: Troubled by the attention he receives in public he moved with his family to the Los Angeles suburb of Sherman Oaks where he found it easier to avoid photographers.(3 interview refs, also said previously preference for NY before he was a parent)
  • KW: "The family divided their time in New York with frequent visits to their estate in the Cotswolds in England."
  • ->CN: He divides his time between L.A. and New York.(3 refs about it, significant to his work)
  • I don't feel I should be seen as "imposing my version" for questioning a deletion someone just chose to do. Or anything I do not is going to be seen as hostile. I just discuss the significance, the precedence, and the options in non-aggressive language. I will try to limit the size of my quotes, I think that is causing the confusion. I have not said anything on the article talk page. I think we should try to address the issues one by one. I understand the importance of being succinct and keeping significance in mind but not all personal info is "trivia" or "gossipy" as seems to be the mindset.
  • Again I messaged Melcous about two edits, thanking her. She thanked me, said I could correct grammatical mistakes & general comment that just because info is sourced that it needs to be included. I replied that I understood and asked about the 4 items specifically as explained above. There was a misunderstanding what I was asking I think due to the length of the quotes, so I listed the 4 items in a list without the quotes and she said such details should be on the article talk page. That was the end of that. I just replied, "sure no problem" to assure that I understand.-Khawue (talk) 02:30, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Hello User:Khawue. ANI is not the place for making content proposals, and I believe this thread is finished. If you want to make more suggestions for article content, make them at Talk:Chris Noth. Don't change the article itself unless you can get prior talk page consensus. Just because material is sourced is no guarantee that it should be included. Whether it belongs in the article is up to the agreement of editors. EdJohnston (talk) 03:02, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Hello EdJohnston, yes I understand. Yes as stated before I well understand that not all sourced material is to be included. I was addressing the fact that the above elements were deleted on the basis that it was gossip that is not acceptable to Wikipedia, BLP, etc. And I can see Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Media_biographies also contradicts claims made of being "promotional" to include description of roles and reviews. Yes I agreed to get talk page consensus before any change during the 7 days and to learn the available options WP:CON, WP:CCC-Khawue (talk) 04:25, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP spammersEdit

These IPs keep adding spam links to numerous articles. Akisuto Zeniko (talk · contribs), 2001:318:e011:f::/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), (talk · contribs · WHOIS), (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and (talk · contribs · WHOIS) have been blocked for the same behavior in the same topic area. I think they are the same person as well. Could someone block the IPs and/or protect the articles? (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/ reblocked for 3 months. Other one is a little stale – it hasn't edit in two weeks. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:58, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


Deepcruze is an obvious POV pusher, violating WP:SOAP and is dedicated to promote one-sided views about Dalits. He has been creating essay-like articles such as Dalit businesses, Dalit music as well as WP:HOAX like Dalit Lives Matter (AfD) in very recent times. Wikipedia is not for activism.

He also failed to address the concerns over his paid editing.

I could discuss with the user in question about these long term issues but it is clear from his talk page that he is totally unresponsive to any concerns addressed to him on his talk page or article talk pages, contrary to WP:COMMUNICATE. NavjotSR (talk) 05:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Xenagoras - WP:NOTHEREEdit

Xenagoras has been performing many dubious edits throughout the Wikipedia project since they entered in August 2019. They began their participation in the project by making multiple edits on the Tulsi Gabbard article and were temporarily blocked after violating rules set on that article. The user has also allegedly been invovled in covert email activity to other users in an attempt of stealth canvassing.

The current issue is on WP:RSN, a noticeboard that has the specific task of determining verifiability, reliability and preventing falsehoods from being placed in Wikipedia. Xenagoras has repeatedly promoted false material in WP:RSN discussions. In these incidents, Xenagoras promotes "unproven" and "false" statements about the White Helmets (Syrian Civil War) as being true. Before going further, I want to state that the incidents are not about the conduct of the White Helmets at all, but about Xenagoras' blatant disregard of what the source concluded and how they purposefully misconstrued what France 24 stated.

The WP:RSN incidents go as follows:

Xenagoras has received multiple warnings about their edit behavior, but the promotion of falsehoods on Wikipedia is unacceptable and dangerous to the integrity of the project as a whole. It appears that the user has received too many warnings for similar incidents for this to be accidental and that they are not here to build an encyclopedia. I do not take the placement of this incident on the noticeboard lightly as I may have only done this once or twice before and only use this for serious concerns. Any reccomendations are helpful and thank you for taking the time to review this situation.----ZiaLater (talk) 08:05, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Let me address the WP:RSN incident first: The only interaction I ever had with ZiaLater occurred in the RfC about the GrayZone Project, where I quoted France 24 to disagree [94] [95] with ZiaLater about the type of interaction/relationship between the White Helmets and al-Qaeda, because ZiaLater quoted other sources to say [96] that GrayZone disseminates propaganda and attacks about that topic. I quoted [97] France 24. In cases where France 24 concluded that allegations about an event were "unproven", they said they could not verify the location where videos about these events were captured. France 24 never disputed that the events in the videos did occur. In these "unproven" cases, I quoted France 24' decription of the events. In cases where France 24 concluded that allegations were "false", they said the military/religious rank of a person was falsely described or there was an incorrect translation from Arabic to English. In these "false" cases, I quoted what France 24 claimed to be true.
All things ZiaLater wrote in their first and last paragraph of this ANI report [98] are irrelevant to the disagreement in the RfC about Grayzone. Let me explain them:
  • ZiaLater's first diff links to an unwarranted and false suspicion against me that was raised without any evidence and without any reason to have that suspicion [99]. That other editor had also attempted to damage my reputation and discredit my future edits by making a false statement of fact about me [100].
  • ZiaLater's second diff links to a 31 hours block against me for an 1RR violation that I unsuccessfully appealed [101], because I attempted to make a series of consecutive edits that amounts to one revert. But I inadvertently failed to make this an uninterrupted series, therefore the admins ruled that I should take it as a reminder to be cautious editing articles under 1RR, so as not to even inadvertently cross over that line.
  • ZiaLater's third diff links to my misguided attempt to get an uninvolved editor to give his opinion on a stuck dispute. I am not yet familiar with dispute resolution procedures and was not aware that an unsolicited invitation to participate in a discussion is inappropriate. Nine days ago I started my first RfC, aiming to solve a stuck dispute.
  • ZiaLater wrote, I had received multiple warnings about [my] behavior, but gave no example. I therefore dismiss this claim as an attempt to discredit me. They also wrote, it appears that the user has received too many warnings for incidents [similar to promotion of falsehoods on Wikipedia], but gave no example for such a warning and no example for any promotion of falsehoods on Wikipedia. They also wrote, these alleged many similar warnings were too many ... for this to be accidental and that [I were] not here to build an encyclopedia. I have always been aiming to adhere to the highest standard of editing and conduct and I continue to improve my editing and conduct.
  • I firmly reject all accusations. The behaviour of ZiaLater amounts to casting aspersions against me and they are mischaracterizing other editors' actions to make them seem unreasonable, improper, or deserving of sanction. Addtionally, the lead of WP:ANI states, this page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems. This ANI report by ZiaLater does not concern any urgent incident, and it does not concern a chronic, intractable behavioral problem. The ANI lead further states, before posting a grievance about a user on this page, consider first discussing the issue on the user's talk page or try dispute resolution. ZiaLater did not discuss the issue on my user talk page and did not try dispute resolution. Xenagoras (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
From my observation, Xenagoras has been the kind of balanced, fair, and considered editor that Wikipedia seeks to attract. His acknowledgement of his missteps itself shows that as well. Humanengr (talk) 20:18, 22 February 2020 (UTC)


I am here to bring my humble request that pepperbeast is undoing my most edits with oppsing reasons for same sort of content on women in islam and Iddah. I asked him about it he explained me not. Furthermore he said that verse of Quran on iddah article which is added is unintelligibe though its commentary was also given, furthermore he removed a verse from womwn in islam page while similar verses are present. Please help me and make him understand. Thank you. I have given him notice on his talk page. Smatrah (talk) 08:33, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

As I have explained to Smatrah, we do not need lengthy quotations that say exactly the same thing as the well-written, secondary-source-backed article text. The Iddah article is already, IMO overstuffed with quotations, and what you inserted was full of spelling errors and a useless sort-of sentence "Main directive is following". I also strongly suspect that Smatrah has has been using several different accounts to carry out an edit war. PepperBeast (talk) 12:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear can you provide Diffs to prove that there were speling errors, furthermore, bro article is full of lengthy quotations

Why are you targeting selected ones. Furthermore if a handful of editors disagree with you it does not mean that it is sockpuppet. As there may be users who support you on other articles. 

Smatrah (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

  • As far as I know, Smatrah always had problems with lack of understanding about WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NPA. See the block log too. The issue was really premature and shows that Smatrah is not capable enough to deal with the content disputes. I would suggest an indefinite topic ban from anything related to religion for Smatrah. D4iNa4 (talk) 16:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I would not call D4iNa4 a sock puppet of pepperbeast just because he ia supporting him. D4iNa4! I came here to make myself immune from blocking. The point here is that pepperbeast says my wording was unitelligible, can he provide diffs to support his claim? Rather than threatening of blocking. Thanks, hoping a sane answer. Can you tell which section of these guidelinrs where i did no obeyed. Smatrah (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Smatrah: coming here does not make you immune from blocking. Indeed, it has quite the reverse effect, per WP:BOOMERANG, of drawing attention to your editing. Any editor who does not believe that an edit improves an article can revert, after which the next move by the editor wanting to add content should be to start a discussion on the article talk page, not here. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Do not make me immune from blocking, just tell which my edit do not foliow which section of wikipedia so mentioned guidrlines, so that i may improve. Furthermore pepperbeast was not explaining reason of his undoing even on his talk page but still undoing. So what i came here to seek justice. Smatrah (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The places to discuss that issue are Talk:Women in Islam and Talk:Iddah, not here. The issue is simply whether content belongs in the articles or not, for which there is no need for any administrative involvement, which is what this page is for. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:02, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Bro i discussed the issue on his talk page, he refused to listen and did not answer but continued edit warring. So i cam here, furthermore pepperbeasrt has already agreed to discuss here but not at their very taklk pages. 01:43, 23 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smatrah (talkcontribs)

Pepperbeast did reply to you. Not agreeing with you is not refusing to listen. But, anyway, Talk:Women in Islam and Talk:Iddah are the places o discuss this, as I have already said twice. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

No, you can check his own talk page i asked him there which guideline which section i am disobeying he did not tell but continued edit warring you can yourself check [[Talk:User:Pepperbeast]] Smatrah (talk) 10:34, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Smatrah, you need to stop. You don't have the freedom to go on doing whatever you please 'til I, personally, explain Wikipedia policy to you. But in this case WP:NOFULLTEXT. PepperBeast (talk) 10:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

If someone undoes edits, it is policy that he must explain, now can you pease explain what is lengthy. I mean how what is distinctive numeral in short and long. Viz how many minimum word or letters quotation will be deemed long thus unacceptable. Furthermore on iddah you said my edits are unintelligible which are not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smatrah (talkcontribs) 16:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Perpetual spamming by Md Moniruzzaman EmonEdit

The primary purpose of this user on Wikipedia has been advertising selected TV stations, in particular Ananda TV. The user keeps recreating the Ananda TV article, which has been repeatedly deleted or moved to the repeatedly rejected Draft:Ananda TV. This user also keeps adding a red link to the non-existing article to List of television stations in Bangladesh and List of Bengali-language television channels, despite the big "Attention editors!" warning on both pages ([102], [103]) that says red links are unacceptable. The user has been adding the red link for many months, and has received numerous warnings for it, including two level-4 warnings. Md Moniruzzaman Emon deliberately ignores them and keeps spamming even after the last warnings ([104]). The user is obviously not here to build an encyclopedia.—J. M. (talk) 13:39, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Blocking now. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Somalia/ Somaliland political disputeEdit

On a variety of articles related to Somalia there appears to be a battle going on between User:Lion Pappa and User:Aqooni (and also possibly User:Capewearer). Lion Pappa has accused the other two users of sockpuppetry, but I have told him that he must not make such accusations without evidence, and that if he has evidence he should present it at WP:SPI. Both Lion Pappa and Aqooni have made edits at WP:AN3 making accusations against each other, but in both cases malformed. I have told Lion Pappa and Aqooni that if they have a content dispute the starting point is to discuss on the relevant article talk pages, but they have not done so. Lion Pappa has repeatedly removed sourced text from a number of articles, and in his most recent edit he has deliberately falsified a reference title. I was rather surprised not to find the Somalia/ Somaliland dispute among areas covered by Discretionary sanctions, but in any case the current behaviour of this group of editors appears to be disruptive. I will leave those of you with greater expertise to decide how widely the blame lies. --David Biddulph (talk) 15:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

My edits to Issa Musse‎ and Oodweyne District (which I assume are the articles in dispute?) were only cleanup and reference fixes. Issa Musse in particular was a mess, and I cleaned it up. When a reference said Somalia, I wrote Somalia; when new references were added that said Somaliland, I backed away from editing, because I have no knowledge of or interest in the dispute over where any of the people or places are located. I'l add some supporting links from the edit history in a few minutes. Capewearer (talk) 15:29, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
My initial cleanup of Issa Musse: [105], [106], [107], [108], [109].
A little later, following some back and forth between Lion Pappa and Aqooni, a reFill format of three new bare references: [110].
And on Oodweyne District, my initial cleanup, just as neutral as in the other article: [111]; then a re-format of the same bare reference [112]; then added a reliable source to a poorly sourced article: [113], [114], [115]. Editor Lion Pappa, who in addition to their edit warring and inflammatory edit summaries has clearly stated at User talk:David Biddulph that he or she is "here for justice" [116], and needs to state clearly what I've done wrong in all this. Capewearer (talk) 16:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I have been accused sockpuppetry by User:Lion Pappa quite a number of times and I hope the administrators can do the necessary checks to verify the invalidity of such a preposterous claim. I want to point your attention that the user User:Lion Pappa has been vandalising multiple pages and removing sourced information on the article do not state. He has also made multiple editions WITHOUT any references. The user has been notified twice already and haven't stopped. Please refer back to the history section of these articles to see the horrific levels of vandalism:

[[117]] (Oodweyne District) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[118]] (Gadabuursi) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[119]] (Berbera) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[120]] (Sahil, Somaliland) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[121]] (Somalia) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[122]] (Zeila) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[123]] (Issa Musse) - Created an entire article without any references

[[124]] (Awdal) - Constant vandalising of this page without references

[[125]] (Borama) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[126]] (Lughaya District) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

[[127]] (Lughaya) - Constant vandalism of this page by this user and removal of sourced references

Aqooni (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

All three editors need to stop accusing each other of Vandalism (and perhaps read Wikipedia:Vandalism) - while you appear to be involved in a content dispute, and there seems to be some edit-warring, there does not seem to be any vandalism. Have any of you attempted to discuss the matters at the article talk pages?Nigel Ish (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
All three of us? I'm not in a content dispute, and I haven't accused anyone of vandalism. I'm here because a notice at my talk page said I may have been involved in this somehow. But as I explained in detail above, all I did was try to tidy up two pages. How about I just volunteer to never, ever edit another Somalia-related article again? Capewearer (talk) 18:07, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Being involved in editing in this topic, I thought I'd like to put my thought into this:

While all sides are engaging in an edit war, Aqooni has had a history of initiating edit wars, as proven by his history and talk page that is filled with blocks and reports. Aqooni seems to have a tribal bias and tends to remove any mentions of Somaliland despite Somaliland having complete, albeit unrecognized, independence from Somalia and Somali government control and despite promising Lion Pappa in Lion Pappa's page to leave articles alone, he's still at it if that's how I understood correctly.

I hope this resolves quickly. Mushteeg (talk) 18:35, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

As Mushteeq had chosen to join this discussion, it will be noticed that his recent edit changed Somalia to Somaliland, with an edit summary claiming "removed unsourced content", although the 3 references for the text in question all referred to Somalia rather than Somaliland. --David Biddulph (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Admins investigating this problem may wish also to consider User:Zaki199105 who was involved in editing many of the same articles (and undoing numerous edits by User:Aqooni) but is now blocked for sockpuppetry. --David Biddulph (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

And another doing the same (& also blocked for sockpuppetry) was User:MahamedHaashi; I haven't notified this one, as I assume that if one instance of the sock knows about this thread then there's no need to notify each one separately). --David Biddulph (talk) 22:37, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I apologized on my talk page. I should be more careful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mushteeg (talkcontribs) 19:35, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Just one thing I propose:

All towns and districts of Somaliland should have its flag and push-in map, however, it should come with some sort of disclaimer that states that Somaliland is a de facto country that's internationally recognized as an autonomous region of Somalia.

Now, the way to put it in the articles can be debated and wrong wordings would probably spark even more edit warring, but that is what I propose to put an end to this. Mushteeg (talk) 19:38, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Mushteeg that we need to aim at a long-lasting solution. Pinging Kzl55, who is the paramount authority on Somaliland that I know of on Wikipedia. A centralized discussion somewhere (probably not here) in the form of a Request for Comment seems like a sound approach to moving forward. El_C 06:41, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

On returning from a block for edit-warring, User:Lion Pappa has resumed his previous behaviour of deliberately contradicting 3 cited references. Mushteeg has been blocked for sock-puppetry, but it looks as if this conflict (on multiple articles) will continue for as long as User:Lion Pappa is allowed to edit. --David Biddulph (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging El C, I see we are back to square one on the Somaliland/Somalia question again :). This issue almost always draws excessive emotional/nationalistic responses, members of the community who are familiar with the project know all about how long it has been going. As such it would seem beneficial to try and discuss the facts on the ground, away from nationalistic rhetoric (on both sides). Somaliland is a self-declared but internationally unrecognised de facto state, meaning that it has physical presence and control on the ground with all the trappings of a state (currency, government, army etc) whilst not being recognised internationally as a separate state by any country.

There is another fact that is important to acknowledge here; just like Somaliland is NOT a full state in the complete sense of the word (owing to lack of international recognition), Somalia too isn’t a full state in the complete sense of the word. Yes, it is recognised as a sovereign state by the UN and most countries in the world, but its government is very fragile and exerts little control on the ground, relying on +20,000 African Union soldiers to exist. Therefore Somalia has the opposite problem of Somaliland, it is a recognised state de jure, but lacks full de facto control on the ground.

Note: I am putting aside the history of Somaliland and Somalia being two separate, sovereign states that chose to form a union for now, just focusing on the reality on the ground today.

As such the two ‘states’ are not full states in the conventional sense of the word, Somalia has international recognition but de facto controls limited area and requires the protection of foreign soldiers, whilst Somaliland is de facto in control of its territory but no other state recognises it. Its a very unique issue. The problem with presenting Somaliland as an "autonomous region" within Somalia is that Somalia already has autonomous regions within the framework of its federal system (e.g. Galmudug, Puntland, Jubaland..etc) of which Somaliland is not part of, that would not be helpful to Wikipedia readership.

I think as a community we have two options to try and resolve the issue:

- If Wikipedia articles are reflecting the neutral reality on the ground, then a nuanced approach is needed. Something similar to the treatment of Taiwan on Wikipedia in relation to the PRC, or that of Sahrawi Republic would be apt. By that I mean describing Somaliland in a neutral language that describes reality on the ground, e.g. "self-declared state that is internationally unrecognised". This would be satisfy those who believe statehood does not necessarily mean international recognition but instead mean existence and effective control on the ground.

- On the other hand if Wikipedia is strictly focusing on the status of UN/international community recognition, then a de facto/de jure treatment might be the way to go, e.g. "Somaliland is a self-declared state, internationally recognised to be part of Somalia".

Addendum: just hours ago, Somaliland rejected another proposed visit by Ethiopia's PM Abiye Ahmed accompanied by Somalia's President Farmajo to Somaliland [128]. Also, NY Times reported five days ago the first ever meeting between heads of Somalia and Somaliland, which happened in the office of Ethiopia's PM during the recent AU summit [129]. It is worth noting that both were accorded presidential welcomes in Adis Ababa upon arrival. Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Somalia, Somaliland: Lion Pappa reported by David BiddulphEdit

  Moved from WP:AIV: ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Lion Pappa (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) – On Djibouti (diff): vandalism after final warning. Obviously not a typo so a deliberately deceptive edit summary. Part of this editor's political campaign. David Biddulph (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Content dispute, still. Please use dispute resolution. Again, I recommend a centralized RfC. The Somalia—Somaliland dispute should not be decided through administrative intervention. El_C 16:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

In my view, repeated edits in contradiction of the cited sources, and edits such as this claiming "fixed unwarranted typo error" but in that respect obviously a deliberately deceptive edit summary, makes this a conduct issue, rather than a simple content dispute. Does the admin community regard this sort of conduct as acceptable? --David Biddulph (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
It's a bit more tricky and nuanced than "acceptable" and "not acceptable". Not all conduct that does not immediately lead to an indefinite block is "acceptable", and not all blocks are the result of a quick AIV decision. Continuing what appears to be a multi-page edit war after a block for edit warring made me move the report here instead of letting it be deleted by the bot. At the same time, I didn't find it egregious enough to take (then pretty final) action myself. I wouldn't focus on the edit summary too much; edit warring appears to be the main issue. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Now we have edit warring and disruption going the other way. That isn't going to be tolerated, either. El_C 21:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Confession I need to makeEdit

Um...well, I have a bit of stuff I need to get off my chest. I, Miles Edgeworth, have operated another account. I haven't posted on Wikipedia in almost 2 years, and I'm feeling guilty about what I've done. In February 2018, I retired from this account, because I wanted to have a fresh start. I created the User:MusicalKnight account. Why did I do this? Well, to be honest, it was to avoid scrutiny. In direct violation of Wikipedia policy. In the end, I didn't end up editing much with the MusicalKnight account (at least, not until today), and retired for good in November 2018. I started editing again recently, but I feel like I'm trying to hide my past using an alternate account. Back when I made it, I think it was to prevent my previous history (from being a new Wikipedia user) from following me if/when I ever applied for adminship. I regret doing this. I miss the people I used to interact with here. I used to think adminship would be like a trophy, when I was younger. Now I'm an adult, and I realize that it isn't a trophy. Well, this will probably be my last message on here, unless I somehow don't get indeffed for this. I never violated policy on either of my accounts (until now), and was embarrassed about my childish mistakes. Now I have to face the mistakes I made, and the punitive measures that will be imposed upon me. Either way, can someone here provide some clarity? The guilt is killing me. Sincerely, Ciaran M. –Miles Edgeworth Talk 22:56, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I think you deserve a barn star for you openness. Folks should forgive you. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Martinevans123, Thank you. Unfortunately, on the internet, your history follows you. I only made that realization a while back, and decided it's best if I revealed what was going on. I'm just a guy who tries to revert vandalism, however, I'm not perfect either. The pressure of being perfect is overwhelming though, and humans make mistakes. –Miles Edgeworth Talk 23:13, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Miles Edgeworth, if I may ask, what sort of scrutiny were you trying to avoid? I don't see any blocks on either account or anything on User talk:Miles Edgeworth to indicate you were in some sort of trouble that you wanted to get out of. Schazjmd (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Schazjmd, this is probably going to sound really weird, but I wanted to essentially have a perfect account. No faults. Why? My younger self saw rights on Wikipedia as a kind of trophy or something like that. So the next step was adminship, however I know how intensive the scrutiny there is (closely analyzing your entire edit history). I know now, that adminship isn't a trophy, and am not focused on achieving that anymore, until I have much more experience. Especially now though, I probably wouldn't stand a chance under the microscope, but I don't care because I'm not seeking that anymore. –Miles Edgeworth Talk 23:19, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Got made mistakes when you were a new editor (as we all do). I've got to admit it, I found reading your confession a bit painful, because I learned (mumblemumble) decades ago how corrosive the feeling of guilt is and so I could really sympathize with why you felt it necessary to come clean. Well, looking at the edits from both accounts, I can't see where you've ever tried to use two identities in nefarious or misleading ways (or done anything to harm the encyclopedia, for that matter), so I hope the end result is a brisk "don't do it again". We'll see what the admins say...   Schazjmd (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, guilt does last. Anyway, I just wanted to seek clarification from the admins about what happened. –Miles Edgeworth Talk 23:42, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Uh. I’m not seeing anything that violates policy leaping off the page. I don’t see evasion of scrutiny either. You stopped using this account in 2018 and almost immediately started using the other account... but I don’t see you being embroiled in drama around that time. If you’re not seeking adminship I don’t think you have anything to worry about (and even if you were, I don’t think having FRESHSTARTed would have held you back provided it were disclosed). I admit I could be missing something very obvious, but I think you might be overreacting here. (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
To tell you the truth, I probably am overreacting. I have problems with anxiety, so I do tend to overreact. :( –Miles Edgeworth Talk 23:42, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Don’t worry, I understand completely. (talk) 23:47, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Tag the alternate account with {{User alternative account banner}} and you're all set. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Why would you contact yourself on your sock account, about this ANI report? GoodDay (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
This is technically a discussion about an editor, so they are technically just following the required instructions. I mean, there is no exceptions listed for when the reported editor is yourself lol –MJLTalk 01:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
And rightly so. I mean, the sock might object to what's being said here. Then things would really get interesting. EEng 02:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
EEng, I object...that was objectionable! In all seriousness, I was just following Wikipedia policy. MusicalKnight (an alt of Miles Edgeworth) talk 02:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh good lord he really did. That is actually awesome. (talk) 02:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC), what do you mean? Are you implying that I'm accusing another random user of sockpuppetry? MusicalKnight (an alt of Miles Edgeworth) talk 02:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Nah, they're just saying it's sort of funny that you notified yourself of a discussion... about yourself :) ♠PMC(talk) 04:27, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Since absolution is being handed out so freely here, I too have a confession: I shot Kennedy. EEng 07:12, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@EEng: But did you shoot the deputy? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 07:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I shot the Sharif.

But no, I did not shoot the deputy. EEng 07:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I broke the dam. DMacks (talk) 07:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

User: (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

This is user User:, who is currently blocked for constant POV edits with misleading edit summaries. They appear to be back under this new IP, with the same MO as before. Tdc42 (talk) 04:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

  • Note that this is from the IP range of Georgetown University. A rangeblock is probably not a great idea if it can be avoided. (talk) 05:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Meetup- related MfD ban for WilliamJEEdit

User William has started an MfD seemingly to "attack" an meetup. I do not take this lightly as meetups are a major part of our community. I propose that he be community banned from creating XfDs related to Wikipedia Meetups. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 06:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Zppix is referring to Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Meetup:Kansas City/Women in Jazz March 2020, which I have speedy closed as it clearly isn't going anywhere and was a bad idea from the start. Having recently defended WilliamJE during his signature dust-up at AN, I'm disappointed to see that he's thrust himself right back into the thick of controversy. It seems hasty to me to jump straight to proposing a ban over a single MfD, but this one was a really bad idea. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 06:37, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Lepricavark, did he modify the confusing signature, as was explicitly asked in the closing statement of AN thread yet ? --DBigXray 08:32, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXray, he has unfortunately refused to make the requested changes. I do wish he would reconsider. This reminds me of a recent experience in which myself and several others were repeatedly rebuffed by one editor who refused to listen to anyone who didn't tell him exactly what he wanted to hear. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I am still confused why this specific article was up for MfD. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 07:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Zppix, did you discuss this concern with William before escalating it to ANI ? if yes, what was his response ? DBigXray 08:34, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXray I don't speak for Zppix directly but this ANI report was filed because the user was committing abusive deletion spam, failing to have ever explained it, and failing to even respond to all the pings on the MfD page itself all day. This is consistent with the user's overall behavior. This is not good faith behavior, or something that can be reasoned with. I hope that's informative to your question. — Smuckola(talk) 08:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Ok. Before MfD this was put on CSD, and denied. I also note that this user has a long block log. --DBigXray 09:01, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh my goodness that's even more extreme than I'd realized. How many blocks, how many instances of WP:BATTLEGROUND WP:TENDENTIOUS and grudges, until that's enough? What's the policy on this? Five thousand strikes and you're out? Today's was one of his more passive aggressive form of bullying; to repeatedly delete a component of Wikipedia itself, particularly a Meetup invitation which is our literal welcome mat to the world saying that Wikipedia is the place to be. A safe and decent place. That's what got deleted today. The librarian who built a world class art museum Meetup host for a curated orientation for Wikipedians, and promoted Wikipedia on the metro TV news, was met with a giant failure message in the ultimate WP:BITE. The user page, the behavior log, everything, is intolerable by civil society. Any regular person walking into Wikipedia for the first time and seeing any of this would be horrified that this behavior is routinely constantly enabled and tolerated at Wikipedia. And they'd never return. And rightfully so. Maybe just save yourselves, good citizens! It's like finding that someone has 10 DUIs. Just how?! At what point are admins effectively complicit in it? Should anyone feel safe going out, or bother to obey rule of law? I want to know the policy on how many hundreds of belligerent tendentious offenses until a permanent block. Thank you. — Smuckola(talk) 09:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Smuckola, I think you'll find that nothing was deleted. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Decency was. Time was. All the time and integrity wasted for all the people he insulted who either disappeared or who stopped him. A WP:TENDENTIOUS abuser was stopped by decent people—it doesn't matter. The ends justify the means—no they don't. That's not how anything works. Anyone who's making excuses is complicit and need not reply. — Smuckola(talk) 22:43, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


--OhKayeSierra (talk) 07:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Zppix. It was deletion spamming, with a speedy delete which was immediately overturned and then a MfD here which was immediately overturned. Both with nonsensical reasons given. In trying to delete a basic WP:MEETUP notice! I assume there's no way an experienced user doesn't know that this spam is an abuse of Wikipedians and of Wikipedia itself. I see the user's history is of open belligerence and polemic toward the community and Wikipedia itself, down to its very infrastructure and ability to operate, which is WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:NOTHERE. This is my first encounter, but multiple very senior Wikipedians have told me that the user is so hostile, belligerent, and tendentious as to be beyond reason, and to have bullied them into letting him go with it just to avoid him rather than even speak to him. On another point, the user page is advertising a personal business of Amazon ebooks, verbally soliciting commercial traffic, and bragging about sales. And the user page, and Wikipedia's image hosting,[130] are abused as a personal family photo album. This is a bunch of WP:UPNOT, such as WP:POLEMIC WP:USERBIO WP:NOTWEBHOST. Thank you. — Smuckola(talk) 08:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't see where he is adverting his books? All I see his him saying that he has made and published them. No links to any of the books. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 15:03, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Smuckola, I would hardly consider the following to be advertising: I have personally written twenty-five fiction ebooks. All of which are for sale at Amazon. Has anyone bought my work? I sold just over 100 ebooks my first month. The rest I'll let you guess. Also, you'll find that many editors have pictures of themselves on their userpage. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I have no idea why this is at ANI. Yes clearly the WilliamJE should not have opened that MfD. But as always, you should talk to an editor before opening an ANI. And by talk, I mean on their talk page. If you fail to do so, your ANI is generally an instant fail. I appreciate that talking to WilliamJE hasn't been successful in the past on other matters, but you still need to try. Also, even if you had talked to WilliamJE and they refused to accept they were wrong, I don't see how opening that single MfD is enough for any sort of topic ban. If there were a pattern here, maybe. But not just a single wrong MfD. P.S. That CSD doesn't seem to establish a pattern. Opening a XfD if you were wrong about CSD is the norm. All it shows is the editor was strongly mistaken about the page being unsuited for Wikipedia. Nil Einne (talk) 10:31, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, but it says above in headers that "Consider first discussing the issue on the user's talk page" not that "it is mandatory" to do so. Zppix can only explain why they did not "consider" it. As explained by Smuckola above, I would guess that outrageous anti-social behavior might be a reason. ⋙–DBigXray 10:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: is right I made a mistake. Not the first time at deletion discussions, which BTW I have a long history at. NE writes= "Opening a XfD if you were wrong about CSD is the norm." Have done that before. NE is also right, this MFD should have never been opened.
    • @Smuckola: Your diatribe concerning my User page is as disgraceful as it is untrue. Where in it is one mention of any book title of mine or the name of my business? There isn't any or anywhere else on WP because I have never mentioned them here. So your claim 'the user page is advertising a personal business of Amazon ebooks, verbally soliciting commercial traffic' is an 'absolute lie'. As for attack on me for image hosting, your diatribe is almost as bad. Personal photos aren't disallowed on WP, and two- The photo is being used in the biography of Gerald Barbarito. The only one WP has. Shame on you Smuckola for both these totally wrong attacks....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
    • @Smuckola: Smuckola's above comparison of my block history to 10 DUIs shows a utterly irrational vindictiveness in this editor especially when you combine it with the lies about my User page. DUI kills 30 people a day in the United States, posting or getting blocked at WP never will. I think this statement of theirs can compare to people calling someone a Nazi or Hitler, and we know what the community thinks of that behavior. Secondly, I don't drink and never been drunk in my life. Anyone who accuses me of such or compares me to people who do, deserve nothing but riddicule....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:37, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I would like to hear from @WilliamJE: before commenting further about their actions regarding this meetup page. Nick (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Nick he has said something above. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 14:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
LakesideMiners, looking at the timestamps, Nick had asked this question before WilliamJE responded. But WilliamJE edit warred to move his response up, against timestamp chronology. ⋙–DBigXray 15:01, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXray, no, I saw the timestamps things. that's why I told him. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 15:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
    • I didn’t bring it up on his talk page due to his anti-social behaviour and past history (block logs/past an thread/etc) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 14:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
After reading WilliamJE's response and invoking Godwin's law - I know WP:AGF but I'm not sure how here. Was an editor involved in this meetup also involved in asking him to change his signature recently? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Vernon Looking though quickly, no. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 19:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Vernon, how would you respond if someone compared your editing history to drunk driving? I agree that there are concerns with WilliamJE's demeanor, but some of the statements above are plainly unfair. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Lepricavark I'd look at my behavior to see what I did to draw such a comparison. I'd have probably considered my behavior long before I got that many blocks. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 20:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Vernon, that's a reasonable attitude and I do agree that WilliamJE should examine his own conduct. That said, the analogy was inappropriate and anyone could have predicted that it would lead to more heat than light. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Lepricavark One of the themes in this ANI is that WilliamJE has had a lot of chances to correct their behavior. The friendly feedback isn't working, even the more on-the-nose feedback isn't working. The request to change his signature to make it readable came across more like an intervention than anything else. For the record, I've nominated 94 articles for deletion, and even I don't understand what the point of this MfD was. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Vernon, I share your concerns. Having interacted with WilliamJE in the past, I regard him as a valuable, good-faith contributor. It's important to take feedback on board and I hope what I wrote here will be effective. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Vernon to answer your question, no, this is my tragic introduction to this user, and I'm the only person at the Meetup with any background in Wikipedia internals like this (beneath the articles), but still I avoid ANI like the plague because I know it's a WP:BATTLEGROUND in itself. I have only rarely ever pursued any administrative action except when it's a patent assault against Wikipedia or Wikipedians. And even that is super rare, because I have all but shut down my activity for years simply due to Wikipedia's infamously institutionally toxic culture like this. Like thousands of others have, I thought "okay, you want it, you can have it" and all but quit editing (instead of engaging in any form of community leadership until this Meetup). So I strolled into a beautiful friendly public facility full of new friends and we stepped on this guy's cyber-landmine. Two repeated deletion requests is not an accident or a valid mistake after 100,000 edits. Challenging the policy and nature of WP:MEETUP by destroying it is not valid behavior but abuse. Soliciting a deletion discussion with no discussion is abuse. The nonsensical premise of "wikipedia is not a social network" (he says in soliciting worldwide discussion among our networked society) is not an actual mistake or due process, but a destruction of WP:MEETUP which is effectively an attack on Wikipedia even more actively than is his signature against archival bots. He just now said in this thread that it shouldn't have even happened (unapologetically, but just out of having been caught). The analogy I stated was clearly made over the entire process here, and to everyone who isn't calling for a block, to consider whether they themselves are complicit with a chronic malignant abuser. One person in this thread even said that surely the user's good edits outweigh the bad—which means that we all simply need to spam 100,000 edits to reach wikigodhood, and we're above the law. Like a fine for a toxic dump, a block is just the cost of doing business. Look at the block log alone, to demolish any assumption of good faith. I clearly said that when you see such an egregious record, whatever the charges or reason or outcome (DUI doesn't matter at all, just a prime example), you just automatically know that the system has failed because everyone has let it happen. And you know that only once or twice was already enough. The particular charge or the outcome of the case doesn't matter anymore when it's gone this far, and anyone who doesn't call for a block has to critically consider how jaded and complicit they may be toward serious Wikipedia abuse. All that's needed is for decent people to do nothing, or just use bureaucratic platitudes to make themselves feel like they did something. So now we'll add WP:NPA within this very thread to this very thread, along with the countless such incidents named in the extensive block log already. It is already stated countless times in the block log and various discussions, this is a hostile anti-repentant anti-corrective WP:TENDENTIOUS abuser who sees criticism as a personal attack and instantly escalates to maximal (even Godwin) personal attack response in order to sabotage conversation and process. Beyond reason, beyond discussion. This is the opposite of Wikipedia, and can't be tolerated. This is the portrait of a way-past-endgame scenario of WP:TEND WP:NOTHERE. Hence this ANI, among others. The user is clearly not examining behavior except to creatively weaponize it—to use Wikipedia and the decency of its admins, as a personal WP:BATTLEGROUND. Even asking the user anymore to examine behavior makes no sense whatsoever to the point where I'd assume the user's abuse history hasn't been read at all. I know the system is insufficient, and I assume nobody here built it, but I want citation of the letter and spirit of how it's even being followed as is. — Smuckola(talk) 22:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Smuckola, no, I did not say that their good edits outweigh the bad. Please don't twist my words. And please stop being overly dramatic. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
This. WilliamJE's behavior was unacceptable, but wasn't so extreme or damaging as you paint it. He started a bad MfD that was an obvious non-starter and which was closed very quickly, and he made some comments in this thread in his own defense that were ill-considered and only hurt his own case. But with these two posts, you've done just as much to hurt your own credibility as you have in pleading your case. Certainly there are problems in the Wikipedia community, and I don't mean to deny that. But by painting this matter as emblematic of those very serious problems, you're serving to dilute the story of those who face those problems on a day-to-day basis. I think you might want to disengage from this thread, Smuckola. (talk) 00:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I didn't know such MEETUP pages existed, until today. Interesting. GoodDay (talk) 21:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

  • The stated deletion rationale is a legitimate argument, but not in an XfD nom. What I think WilliamJE should take away from this is that XfD is not an effective mechanism for creating or interpreting policy, particularly not on a piecemeal basis. It's more for applying policy to particular fact situations. This is something that should be teed up via RfC. (talk) 21:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
  • I find it difficult to understand this editor's insistence here that this is not a social media site, when he defends his right to use such social media paraphernalia as a customised signature. Both can't be acceptable at the same time. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
    ^Jorm liked this comment.--Jorm (talk) 22:42, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from GoodFaithManEdit

GoodFaithMan, despite repeated pleas and warnings on their talk page, continues to make edits that go against the accepted MOS for certain articles, specifically on Nine (Blink-182 album). 7 times to be specific - [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] despite being reverted each time with an explanatory edit summary and a warning/message on their talk page, which, just for February is starting to look like a christmas tree due to the amount of warnings. On top of that, they have yet to make any attempt at communicating with concerned editors leaving messages on their talk page. Here you can see IllaZilla making a personal plea that has blatantly been ignored. The only so called communication that has occurred from GFM are their increasingly insistent edit summaries that are shouted when they are reverted as can be seen here and here. I'd be most grateful if an admin could cast an eye please. Robvanvee 12:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Robvanvee, I agree that this editing is disruptive - they have been reverted by five different users at that page, and keep adding the same content without engaging with any of the arguments people have been making. I'm going to offer them a word of advice and ask that they self-revert their latest addition. GirthSummit (blether) 14:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
That would be most appreciated Girth Summit. Robvanvee 14:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Robvanvee,   Done. GirthSummit (blether) 14:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Enough. User is still at it Iron Maiden and Fleetwood Mac (1968 album). Taking this to WP:AIV - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 14:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Before I saw this, I've just given them a final warning too (and reverted a pile of stuff). One more edit, and that's it. AIV is probably not useful here, as it's not pure vandalism, simply disruptive editing. Black Kite (talk) 14:55, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Here they are adding more unsourced info, something I recently gave them a final warning for. Robvanvee 15:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Sock blocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Robvanvee 15:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Possible Template:Ds/alert abuse by DBigXrayEdit

No abuse, warning templates are a necessary part of the DS mechanism. Editors who receive (and issue) them should bear the editing restrictions in mind and behave accordingly. . Acroterion (talk) 16:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia Screenshot 1 of Djm's user talk page on phone, not showing any DS aware templates ⋙–DBigXray
Screenshot 2 of Djm's user talk page on phone ⋙–DBigXray
Screenshot 3 of Djm's user talk page on phone ⋙–DBigXray
Screenshot 4 of Djm's user talk page on phone ⋙–DBigXray

It will immediately be apparent there are tensions between my and DBigXray at the moment but my I ask the scope of this discussion should be kept with the scope of Template:Ds/alert and Template:Ds/aware. See also: Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, particularly alert.aware. I express concern DBigXray is inappropriately applying the Template:Ds/alert for the deliberate or inadvertent purposes of disruption; or possible to intimidate, coerce, or shame another editor.

DBigXray's discretionary sanctions alerts are given on this list: [138]. Not all are inappropriate, however in the following examples at least the tool was quite possibly used escalate a provocation:

I believe the Arbitration Committee was always aware of the risk of Ds/Alert abuse and actions against it need to be robust to avoid Ds/Alert being weaponised. I in particular see the Ds/alert applied to myself on 7 February 2020 as a stonewall abuse infringement and failure to immediately own a mistake had been made as extremely serious ... though of course I am a party in that dispute and perhaps indirect also have relationships to the other incidents. It may be noted other times DBigXray had issued a Ds/alert may well be justified, as may be the case for another issued on 07:35 23 February 2020. — Djm-leighpark (talk) 12:59, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

  • Proposal: DBigXray to be sanctioned to not apply Ds/alerts for the period of three months. Reasoning: The restriction has negligible effect on normal editing or discussion but stresses the care people need to take when placing Ds/alerts to ensure they are not used when the likely outcome will be to escalate tension. I have considered a softened alternative of the restriction only being in place when no XfD or content discussion is ongoing but pragmatically that could lead to grey areas. I would suggest that the option of DBigXray accepting a voluntary no-fault ban of setting Ds/alert would be most welcome early on; but should this debate become a procrastinated discussion with a very clear consensus to apply a restriction the community should in that circumstance reject a last-minute no-fault offer. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 12:59, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Reply by DBigXray I note that DJM did not bring this up on my user talk page before escalating this straight to ANI. I note that they are on an avowed revenge campaign against me [143], [144], [145], [146], [147]. I also note that reminding editors using the standard WP:ACDS alert that they are editing in the topic area under AC-DS is not sanction-able or even an offence. AC-DS requires the template to be given as it is. Editors who think that Those alerts are inflammatory need to say that in an RfC and get the templates removed or banned. As for the Alert on Djm, I did check their DS alert logs which did not show any alert in past 12 months, so I posted the alerts. However I note that it was not necessary since they had DS aware template, but I did not notice their DS Aware banner (that was crowded among other lengthy banners and never showed up on my phone screen, see phone screenshots I have uploaded here) until they SHOUTED about it in their response and I looked at their user talk on my desktop. ⋙–DBigXray 13:07, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more. He is aggressive and unreasonable and keeps on insisting my sources are not valid in the AfD discussion. I tried to explain but he said I was in bad light due to repeating to mention sources. I was just too busy to check and I thought that maybe he hadn't seen my sources and I reposted. However, he then threatened that he will publicize this on the AfD discussion. He really did and I publicized the conversation on the AfD page as a response and was just a bit sarcastic but I didn't attack him. He then gave me that alert and I was appalled. I asked him why but he asked me to read the policies. Of course I know the policies. He is insulting my Wiki knowledge. I replied by further asking his motive but he insisted that I read the policies and even implied that I am not civilized and my English is poor. I think that he has to be restricted of using this template to prevent him from further wreaking havoc and disrupting the normal wikilife of other users. Thanks a lot. WikiAviator (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
WikiAviator, it is expected that you provide WP:DIFF as evidence to back up your self concocted 'stories' ⋙–DBigXray 13:26, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any indication that DBigXray isn't using the DS alert in good faith. In my experience, their work in the contentious ARBIPA topic area often makes DS alerts to be an important function when dealing with fringe content (generally — not to imply that about the above editors whose contributions I am unfamiliar). El_C 13:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

^^^ and also, this is, not unexpectedly, turning into a bashfest against DBXr for anyone he has called out for POV pushing, poorly sourcing contentious material etc. While good faith suggets this is unintentional, it is the expected corollory to bringing an editor active in ARBIPA to ANI. ——SN54129 13:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
And looks like the invitations to this bash fest have already been sent. [148] [149] ⋙–DBigXray 14:16, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The DS alert contains the sentence, "It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date." How is that abuse? Phil Bridger (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

indeed. But they seem to be pissed off with these standard DS Alerts, due to the ongoing content disputes and are inventing excuses to grind their axes, to get back at me--⋙–DBigXray 14:26, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
A WP:BOOMERANG seems more likely than any sanction of DBigXray. The initial complaint is very confused and I can't even parse some of it but from the diff's provided, DBX is using the DS templates exactly how they are documented. They are not sanctions or warnings or anything else that Djm-leighpark is trying to claim they are. An editor who claims they are aware of the nature of DS templates (as Djm's talk page states) should know that and discard any spurious templates they receive. The "I'm aware of DS on these subjects" template is, at very best, a polite request. There is no policy or behavioral norm implicated by the actions complained of. There is a policy violation in spurious ANI reports, however. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:23, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The context in which these are sent is important. Specifically the sending of the Ds/alert when I had placed a Ds/aware is a technical no. It is a violation of the enforcement procedure document (as Wikipedia:ACDS aware.alert/aware.dup). While a one off I presume the response Lots of Laughs to that mistake is funny? It is not a direct devaluation of Ds/aware & Ds/alert ? The "A" response to that would have been ... "Sorry I missed your Ds/aware notice .... I see I've upset you please accept my apologies?". Will this turn into a DBigXray, probably looks like it now, but often perhaps this is inevitable as DBigXray often seems to badger in with the first and last word and divert into a bash poor victim DBigXray noresult fest; brilliant technique really. Okay Phil Bridger i'll take a WP:BOOMERANG if you like but perhaps it is a wake up call to how Ds/alerts can be poorly applied leading to escalation. So the admins who like the Gods in Olympus will look down on these matters and chew things. My understanding is I have no real option but to alert WikiAviator/Soman after they've been mentioned as they have. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 15:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
You SHOUTED and accused an editor who alerted you with std templates of WP:HOUNDING and abuse, for giving the alerts, and you have issues with LOL.
Djm-leighpark, did it occur to you that you can remove those DS Alerts from your page anytime, if you consider it inflammatory and it gets on your nerves ? The fact that you felt the act of alerting a user on ACDS, as something that is worth for a topic ban via ANI, just shows that you really really hate someone. Some kind of boomerang is indeed needed to end this "revenge campaign against DBigXray". ⋙–DBigXray 15:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXray, My current policy is generally to leave my talk page to auto-archiving; apart from Wikiloves, the incredibly rare barnstar, and sometimes foul language (which I may also sometimes collapse). I did manually archive an issue with an off-wiki email with a possible canvas etc. as one word I had said about with was possibly inappropriate, you are aware of the one as you blasted the guy with a warning on his talk page. I confess to eyeballing down his AfD raises for the day and he may have been trying to alert me to a media article he had up for deletion (because its the sort of thing (media in possibly suppressed country) I might tend to try to rescue. So it was quite possibly not a canvas but a good faith notification that would not have been inappropriate on my talk page. In general I take the stuff on my talk page and it stays. Look DBigXray, you do good work; you know guidelines, and policies, and point out your interpretation of them vigourously; (may sometimes skipping those that are inconvenient to your ends); you seemingly avoid the straight answer and divert; in many respects you are like my missus with trained counselling tricks; you love to play the victim claiming people hate you. You are almost a more troublesome Wikipedia editor than I am; but not quite; but clever enough to deflect peoples from the Ds/alert issue.Djm-leighpark (talk) 16:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Would both of you dial it back? Acroterion (talk) 16:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Since Calling for Topic Bans is in vogue these days, Can I ask Djm be one way WP:IBANned from interacting with me for his ongoing revenge campaign and more importantly for comparing me with his missus. ⋙–DBigXray 16:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you could set a positive example? I don't see that you did anything wrong with the template, but this ping-pong reply pattern isn't necessary. Editors do occasionally get belligerent when they receive DS notices, it's best ignored. Acroterion (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Acroterion, I already did. If you look at my conduct after his fiery reaction to my DS alerts, you will find that I already ignored him and tried staying away from any of his wiki activities. But based on the diff in my first response, you can see that he is going on and on about me, bad mouthing me everywhere on Wikipedia, and this frivolous ANI report clearly shows he is showing no signs of stopping. ⋙–DBigXray 16:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Then let others deal with it. I'm closing this, it's not accomplishing anything. Acroterion (talk) 16:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Boomerang. This is a waste of time.--Jorm (talk) 16:29, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Comment These templates are useful and serve as reminders. DBigXray is free to put one on my Talk page if it applies to me. This all seems like a misunderstanding of an editor on what this means and what the intent was. It's a reminder and so far there doesn't seem to be evidence of malicious intent. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 16:31, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


I have had in passing a stupid thought that the issuing of a DS at the top of relevant AfD's might be an alternative to someone involved halfway down an AfD discussion issuing them. Would need an RFC and more thought but it is stupid thought (wrong forum). Djm-leighpark (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

We have a community supported guideline to handle folks who get triggered with DS alerts and then drag folks posting DS alerts to ANI. That guideline is called WP:CIR--⋙–DBigXray 16:23, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks by User:AmauryEdit

At Big City Greens, I got into an editing dispute with User:Amaury. I admit that I probably let the dispute go on too long before starting an actual discussion on it, but after I finally started an RFC User:Amaury continuously talked about my conduct in the RFC instead of the issue on hand. I made it clear that it was the wrong place to be discussing that and if he had an issue with my conduct, he should bring it here. Not only did he ignore that, but he started making completely uncalled for personal attacks. See [150] and [151]. I removed the personal attacks from his comments, but left the rest of the comments up [152] [153] and warned him about making personal attacks, and again called for him to either start a discussion here about my conduct or just focus on discussing the actual topic on hand at Talk:Big City Greens. Instead, he just readds his personal attacks at Talk:Big City Greens [154]. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 14:42, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Amaury probably shouldn't have been so agressive in their responses to you. However, you violated WP:3RR in your insistence that you were right, which is a bright line no-no for Wikipedia. Slywriter (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I admitted as much. If he reported me, I would have accepted any consequences that came of it, and I told him multiple times that he can report me. However, just because I edit warred does not at give him permission to make personal attacks. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 15:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
You shouldn't have removed Amaury's comments. They were not the kind of personal attacks that need to be removed, and from the edit summary, it is clear that Amaury reinserted them because he felt you had no right to remove them ("refactor"). As for the comments themselves, they are borderline personal attacks. They are more inflammatory rhetoric and certainly uncalled for. In this lovely uncivil environment we call Wikipedia, I doubt they rise to the level of sanctions, although they probably deserve a warning.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
User:AussieLegend removed them after he re-added them [155], so apparently he agreed that they don't belong there. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 16:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Feenyfan2019 is a sock, but they were still right that this is not an isolated incident. [156] whether you're right or wrong, that's not an appropriate edit summary. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 20:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

For the record, I said I wouldn't be continuing the discussion at the article in question, much like IJBall, because it's pointless. Also, please take a look at my block log and tell me the last time I was blocked for personal attacks. I'll tell you now. It was way back in 2009, so I don't see this history of which you speak. And if you knew you were edit warring, then why keep doing it? In any case, if a warning is the outcome of this report, then I will gladly accept it, but this is really all I will post on the matter. Amaury • 21:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The history is the fact that you told another editor to screw 2 months ago in an edit summary. Just because you weren't blocked or warn for it doesn't mean that it's not a personal attack. And if you and IJBall want to actually discuss the topic at hand on the article talk page, there's nothing stopping you. However, all you two have been discussing is my editing conduct, which you can open up a report here if you want to discuss that, an issue with the separate episode article, which should be discussed at that article's talk page and personal attacks against me, which don't belong anywhere on this site. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 21:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Also, the claim that he hasn't been blocked for personal attacks since 2009 is extremely misleading if not out right false. In August 2019, he was blocked for "Edit warring and casting aspersions". Which is just a specific way of wording personal attacks. So there's evidence that this is a pattern on his part. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 22:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not trying to canvas here, but I really think that it would be helpful if NinjaRobotPirate could elaborate on why they blocked Amaury for "Edit warring and casting aspersions" in August because it could really help establish if he has a history of making personal attacks and being warned about them. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 01:28, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1015#Amaury - Accusing my account of being a Sockpuppet and giving no reasons why. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:44, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Good removal and endorse the warning issued by Aussie. Amaury's aggression had clearly gotten way out of control and it was appropriate for someone to step in. ~Swarm~ {sting} 02:04, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • After seeing why was last blocked, it seems like he has a history of attacking users instead of ideas when confronted when edit he doesn't like. He also seems more than happy to edit war when he feels that he's right, which is an issue that I also have, but it makes it pretty hypocritical of him to attack me for that when he has the same problem. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 02:32, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Three things:
    1. I really don’t understand Amaury’s comment, ... now you went running for an RFC because you weren't getting your way. Isn’t an RFC an acceptable form of dispute resolution when we don’t get our way?
    2. Amaury making and reinstating the statement ... you're a goody two-shoes and mommy's little angel. You probably never once misbehaved and always followed mommy's rules to the letter. is well over the line. Calling someone a momma’s boy is not only a clear cut PA, it also invokes outdated gender roles and stereotypes. It’s misogynistic and has no place in a collegial environment.
    3. Amaury’s statement above, In any case, if a warning is the outcome of this report, then I will gladly accept it, but this is really all I will post on the matter. is, in my view, totally unacceptable. We cannot allow editors to choose to make a PA and then “gladly accept” the warning. Editors don’t get to “trade” a PA for a warning. I would have agreed with Bbb’s suggestion of a warning above until I read this. Obviously a warning is not going to be enough to change Amaury’s behavior here; a stronger sanction is likely called for. Perhaps a one way interaction ban or partial block from the page where the PAs were made? If you’re going to make PAs against an editor on an article talk page, and refuse to stop or retract (“gladly” accepting a warning), then you shouldn’t be allowed to interact with that editor and/or edit that page. – Levivich (talk) 04:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Levivich:
    1. Exactly my thought. He was complaining that I was editing without discussion, but somehow when I did try to discuss I was still in the wrong.
    2. Exactly why I reported him.
    3. He already claims to have given up on that debate, so I don't know if blocking from that page is really going to accomplish anything. I don't really know how an one way interaction ban would work. While it's obviously not my decision to make, if it was, I would go with a temporary block and a warning that any further personal attacks would result in a longer block. But again, it's obviously not my call and I'm obviously biased here. JDDJS (talk to mesee what I've done) 05:07, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Kenji1987 WP:NOTHEREEdit

Kenji1987 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Their entire contribution history consists of attempts to whitewash articles on a small number of problematic academic publishers, except for a small amount of pointy argumentation (e.g.). Talk-page contributions consist of endless piles of civil POV-pushing. Essentially everyone they have interacted with has ended up querying them about COI/whether they are being paid -- whether or not that's the case, they are a pointless drain of energy on other editors in the academic journal space. I request an indefinite block per WP:NOTHERE. --JBL (talk) 17:52, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Kenji1987's same pattern of civil POV-pushing has also spilled over into my talk page, to the point where I explicitly gave up on responding, only to have Kenji1987 continue to try to extend the argumentation: see User talk:David Eppstein#Accusing me of whitewashing. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure if "WP:NOTHERE" applies, but there's certainly a problem with WP:IDHT and WP:CLUE an a general obsession with the questionable publishers (mostly Frontiers Media and MDPI). A topic ban around academic publishing might be warranted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:15, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I am trying in all honesty to contribute to improving the pages related to open access publishing. I might be overdoing it at times, but I find the general athmosphere quite toxic. If you look at the Talk page of MDPI, you can see that I am open for discussion about restructuring the pages, but its either ignored or I am accussed of whitewashing. JBL repeatedly asked me to "go away", and from day 1 I joined Wikipedia, I never really had the chance to join a discussion without being accussed of whitewashing. Whatever the result is of this proposed ban, its all documented, and while we can never see someone's true intentions, I am just an academic trying to do my part making information on scholarly publishing on Wikipedia a bit less biased. MDPI's page is graded of C quality, and there is a reason for that. There are a group of editors trying to discourage other users for making changes, upon we end to having this situation: a total ban. Im willing to have an open discussion about improving pages on open access publishers, and refrain from making further edits in the meanwhile, but then I need constructive arguments, and not discussions about me or my integtrity. On the other hand, if it is decided that I should be banned, then there is a lesson here to be learned, the reader is able to decide what lesson that is. Kenji1987 (talk) 23:29, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Headbomb, a topic ban would also be fine with me; since Kenji1987 has made 0 only a dozen or so edits to articles or article talk pages outside that topic area, I'm not sure I see any difference. --JBL (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Joel_B._Lewis That is simply not true. I have edited pages on universities, cities I like, and other odd pages. Not as much as academic publishing (maybe 95% of my edits?), but in order to have a right judgement, you cannot simply state things which are not true. Kenji1987 (talk) 02:35, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Although this is not WP:COIN, my immediate impression is also of a conflict of interest, despite the claims on the user page and repeating that it's not the case when asked. The reason for this is evidence: the history shows a lot of editing in relation to open access and particularly MDPI and the tendency has been to minimize criticism. It is not impossible that I'm wrong, but these are usually strong indicators, the same reason various other editors also suspect it... It is rare that someone will spend that much effort on a particular topic without involvement (which could even be as benign as publishing through it). Others can WP:AGF and assume it's not the case, but to persuade them, it would be a good idea to move on to other pages when contested, or even other topics, before an eventual topic ban occurs to enforce that, or even a full site ban... —PaleoNeonate – 03:00, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
PaleoNeonate, this has been suggested repeatedly to Kenji1987; the whining you see above ("woe is me! how cruel that I should be accused of whitewashing, just because I want to remove negativity! alas!") is completely consistent with the responses they've given before. --JBL (talk) 03:20, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
And for some reason "fixing" the page seems so urgent as to require the use of help templates... Moreover, the MDPI article itself has had a lot of previous COI editing issues before. If the goal was really to bring articles to GA status, why not try with less controversial pages? If not really COI, it's still at the point of disruptive editing. —PaleoNeonate – 03:37, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
I did, for example see Scientific Reports or Plos One. Kenji1987 (talk) 03:43, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Right: that's the small amount of WP:POINTy argumentation I mentioned. --JBL (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
I understand that editing one particular topic all the time can invoke the feeling of having a conflict of interest. The point is, from Day 1, I have been accused of that. Now, the MDPI wiki is particularly sensitive to users having a COI and I have made (and I am still making) novice mistakes (for example by assuming that doing your own research can be part of Wikipedia), but every time, I am trying to start a discussion (see the Talk page, I am repeatedly asking for input, suggestions, and even help) I have to defend myself, up until the point, that I am now discussing whether a total ban is justified or not. Now, I did not not know what civil POV-pushing was (until today), and I will try not to have endless discussions, especially if users tell me that they don't want that any longer (I have never received a warning about this), but at the same time, I am honestly interested in for example, what constitutes a newspaper style article and what is encyclopedic, what generally goes into a lead and what not, when is a source outdated and when is it not, and so on, and so on. I see for example a double standard how criticism is reported for Scientific Reports (a section I added by the way) and MDPI. For the former it is short, to the point, and no quotations used, for the latter, it is a whole essay about what editors felt, who rhetorically asked what, and which magazines called some of its articles "crazy" or "silly" or what not. Now, I do not want to start this discussion here (and I understand that this is not the place for these kind of discussions - it is discussing whether a total, topic or no ban is justified for me - and whatever the outcome may be, I have little influence over this), but these are some of the issues I am trying to raise. If this is against WP-policy, Ill stop doing it, and observe a little longer what is allowed in editing, and what not, but if this is reasonable, then I am willing to have an open discussion about how to be a responsible Wiki-editor. I honestly get triggered when people reduce my whole reply to simply "whining" or when discussions are cut off through saying things like "go away"[1,2,3]. Ps. I laid out my concerns, I leave it here now, I will hear later what the outcome is. [1] [2] [3] Kenji1987 (talk) 03:43, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

This was archived with no action, but I feel prematurely -- several editors have weighed in above to confirm the problems with the editing. I am not particularly tied to my original proposal, and would appreciate if any other administrators could take a look and consider an indef, a topic ban, or at a minimum administering a clear warning about the problematic behavior. (Given Kenji1987's response to previous feedback, I doubt that the last one will be successful in preventing problems.) --JBL (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I look forward to hearing about my "fate" - I have laid out my arguments, and I have nothing further to add, but at the same time, I would like to ask the administrators to comment on JBL's way of approaching me, since September 2019. I have added the links above (just search for "go away" in the page). Kenji1987 (talk) 02:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Endorse topic ban or WP:NOTHERE block. I formed the same conclusion myself based on edits to articles on my watchilist. Guy (help!) 00:16, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Maximus the GreekEdit

Speedy Close ANI is not for content disputes. The talk page is the appropriate venue. You may wish to post neutrally worded requests for other editirs to join the discussion on relevant wiki-project talk pages. See also WP:DR for more suggestions. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Seeking dispute resolution and asking for independent help; disruptive edits by two users, User:Khirurg and User:Dr.K. I will notify them of the posting at this notice board. Edion Petriti (talk) 17:06, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass attack at Indian IdolEdit

Got it. All good. El_C 17:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've requested page protection, but a response there could take a long time. This is a tidal wave of original research, unsourced content, vandalism and accusations. Needs to be protected, then cleaned. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Fer sure. No worries. El_C 17:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


OP blocked as sock at SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NedFausa is harassing me on my multiple pages. I have been accused of "not wanting to give a gay man his proper due" [[157]] now he is on my page calling me a sock and harassing me [[158]]. I have kindly asked to work with him to make Wikipedia a great website for all and still he continues. [[159]] I am asking for intervention as the comments are now multiple personal attacks. Mr. Awesome, PhD (talk) 18:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MmoatesBillHPike (talk, contribs) 18:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I am confident of the outcome of the sockpuppet investigation. That however does not negate the fact that NedFausa has harassed me on multiple pages including my own user talk page. Also, I am surprised that talk is trying to use the Sockpuppet investigation to excuse behavior that is clearly harassment and in bad faith. Hopefully this will all get resolved soon. I have nothing to hide. I don't appreciate the insinuating that I am a homophobe or that I am a sock. Mr. Awesome, PhD (talk) 18:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated vandalism from

Can you please block This user edited the Gonzaga Bulldogs men's basketball page and change the name of the page to "Yoeli Childs’ Sons" within the last 12 hours. As you can see on their user talk page, this IP address is known for vandalizing Wikipedia pages, and even changed the name of the Yoeli Childs page to "Gonzaga’s Dad" today as well as seen on their recent contributions, and this type of behavior has been documented since 2018 on this user's talk page. Can you please block this user for at least the next couple months? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorgeriverez (talkcontribs) 18:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

It looks like the IP was warned for vandalism today, but there hasn't been anything else since then. If the IP continues to vandalize, see the instructions at WP:VAND. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Trying to make a non controversial edit at The BandEdit

...And have been reverted twice and give an edit warring warning by FlightTime (talk · contribs). This was my second edit, slightly shorter than the first [160]. Please see my rationale in edit summaries and at the other editor's talk page, which is that the edits are copiously supported by article content. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

This is just a content dispute, so you should just propose your changes to the article's talk page. –MJLTalk 03:26, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
I have. I'm astonished that a non-controversial edit would be twice reverted and earn a 3rr warning. This is also about abuse of reversion tools and warning templates, as well as a willful suspension of policy regarding lede content that doesn't require citations when sources are plentiful in the body of the article. This was explained, to no avail. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:29, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
And as a content matter, MJL, have a look at the restored version. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I think ANI is premature, but I'm genuinely puzzled by FlightTime's attitude here. Wording changes to the lead don't require citations. User talk:FlightTime#The Band shows unwonted hostility over an edit that should have just passed without comment. What gives? Mackensen (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

  • You're probably right about my quickness to bring this here, but I'm so tired with trigger finger article scanners who have trouble with an IP making an edit of the least substance. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
I didn't notice it was an attempt to change the lead. My apologies 2601:188, it would seem this is a conduct dispute. (edit conflict)MJLTalk 03:54, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
@FlightTime: you have over 100,000 edits; out is phenomenally difficult to believe you are not aware of MOS:LEAD which is clear that citations are rarely required in the opening section, as it is merely summarising the contents of the article body.
As for prematurity, well, I'm not sure where one can else go, once one has already unsuccessfully attempted to resolve the matter at the user's talk page.
If nothing else, this was an example of misusing a templated warning. ——SN54129 08:45, 24 February 2020 (UTC)