Talk:Statue of Atatürk (Sheridan Circle)

Requested move 28 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Statue of Atatürk (Sheridan Circle) and Statue of Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington), as most CONCISE of the suggested titles, with disambiguators suggested by Ed Johnston and agreed upon in principle by others.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

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• Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Anahtar) → Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Anahtar, Washington, D.C.)
• Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Embassy of Turkey, Washington, D.C.) → Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Hall, Washington, D.C.)

– WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says: "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better." In this case, disambiguating by location is difficult because both statues are installed in Embassy Row, Washington, D.C. See related discussion here. I agree with User:Ham II's suggestion except I've used the title of the subject's name per the parent article: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. --Another Believer _(Talk) 22:38, 28 March 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 03:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 04:25, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom and my own earlier comments at WT:SCULPT. "Artist's name, Location" disambiguation is quite commonplace for works of art. Ham II (talk) 18:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
• Some page moves are required, but not the proposed ones. This sculpture - the one actually made from bronze, outside the Turkish Ambassador's Residence - is by the artist Jeffrey L. Hall, not by the architect Nuray Anahtar, so the title is doubly wrong.

  The one outside the embassy seems to be made from fiberglass (!) and is nothing to do with Hall. Even the Atatürk Society of America, not constitutionally inclined to objectivity in such matters, are rude about it.

  I would suggest this one goes to Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Ambassador's Residence, Washington, D.C.) and the other one goes to Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Embassy of Turkey, Washington, D.C.) - I hope that meets whatever rules are deemed to apply. Theramin (talk) 00:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  Theramin, Thanks for your help here. I would be fine with these titles. @Ham II: Opposed to disambiguating by location only? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  @Another Believer: Not at all, although these titles are getting rather long and there is WP:CONCISE to consider. Could "Mustafa Kemal" or "D.C." be cut out, or could "Embassy of Turkey" be shortened to "Turkish Embassy"? I think "Statue of Atatürk [...]" would still have "sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the general subject area". Ham II (talk) 07:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  I think that WP:SHORTFORM might also support "Statue of Atatürk [...]": "Where a topic has a long or disambiguated title, and a shorter form or abbreviated form of that title is recognizable when used in context, unambiguous subtopics of that topic commonly use the shorter form or abbreviated form for conciseness and naturalness." Ham II (talk) 08:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Ambassador's Residence, Washington, D.C.) and Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington, D.C.). -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:17, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Instead of the moves proposed, I recommend moving the new 2013 statue to a title such as Statue of Atatürk (Sheridan Circle), and the old one (if still considered notable) could be moved to Statue of Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington). User:Another Believer has mentioned the style advice in WP:VAMOS, which would recommend 'Statue of..' in the title). I'm also thinking of brevity, which makes it unnecessary to use Atatürk's full name in the title. Sheridan Circle is a unique name on Wikipedia, and 'Turkish Embassy, Washington' is fully descriptive of the location of the old statue. Nurey Anahtar is not the sculptor of the new statue so I am not sure why she should be part of the identifier. We don't know anything about the sculptor of the old statue, and it's very unlikely to be the work of Hall, so the second move to '(Hall, Washington D.C.)' doesn't make sense. Instead it should go somewhere identified by location such as Statue of Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington). EdJohnston (talk) 03:02, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  I very much like these suggestions for disambiguators – only two and three words long, respectively. I'd support moves to Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Sheridan Circle) and Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington): the overall length of the article titles was what concerned me before, so with shorter disambiguators we could use Atatürk's full name, per WP:CONSISTENT. Despite the latter statue's parent article having the title Embassy of Turkey, Washington, D.C., I think that "Turkish Embassy, Washington" would be better as a disambiguator because: 1). WP:CONCISE and WP:SHORTFORM; 2). the large inscription below the statue reads TURKISH EMBASSY; and 3). it's clear from the context that an embassy would be in Washington, D.C., and not Washington state. Ham II (talk) 10:42, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• This discussion seems to have come to a bit of an impasse. @Another Believer, EdJohnston, Necrothesp, and Theramin: How woud you feel above moving these articles to Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Sheridan Circle) and Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington), per the arguments in my post immediately above? Ham II (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Fine by me. Although it should probably be Statue of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish Embassy, Washington, D.C.) for consistency's sake. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:19, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I'd still prefer "Embassy of Turkey, Washington, D.C.", per Embassy of Turkey, Washington, D.C., but I don't feel strongly enough to oppose "Turkish Embassy". ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:11, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• Almost any of the new proposed titles would be better than the current one, as long as it does not perpetuate the error of saying the statue was "by Nuray Anahtar". It has been nearly a month now: can we please get on and move it to one of the acceptable titles, and possibly refine it later if necessary, rather than letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Theramin (talk) 01:08, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.