Talk:Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

Operation Al-Aqsa Storm MuhaFr (talk) 23:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Hostages are freed not from Be'eri only

HAMAS seized hostages from Ofaqim and Be'eri, add it in result Deus vult fratres! (talk) 09:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim with Be'eri massacre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was: Merge into Be'eri massacre, with the paragraph about Ofakim merged into Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. – SJ + 02:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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There is already another page on the Be'eri incident, i.e. Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim, which is more comprehensive. I suggest merging this into the more complete version. --Mhhossein ^talk 20:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre or keep separate. Judging by the number of victims, the merge, if it takes place should be the other way around (the stand-off article merged with this one). Also I'm not sure why the events in Ofakim are covered in the same article. Alaexis_¿question? 20:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Note:Alaexi's comment was transferred by me from the TP of Be'eri massacre. --Mhhossein ^talk 20:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Massacre merge into stand-off - Two different events...(Which is more an opposing reason that support...But assuming support becomes the majory reason...) The stand-off was related to a true military confrontation (both Israel and Hamas lost troops) and due to the hostages, had to enter basically a Mexican standoff to save the hostages. The massacre only involved Hamas killing civilians, followed by Israel coming in 12 hours later (amid the stand-off) to kill the militants. Basically, per the timeline of events, the massacre should be merged into the stand-off article, rather than the other way around. Note, I am opposed to merging the stand-off into the massacre article, as it would disrupt the basic timeline of events (Plus, the stand-off article has 38k views over the last 2 days and the massacre article was just created). The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre. The stand-off was the confrontation between the IDF and Hamas, with the massacre occurring during the stand-off. Articles mentioning the stand-off predominantly focus on the civilian atrocities that occurred during it, such as the hostage crisis in Be'eri. This WSJ article, this CNN one, and even Israeli media all mention the hostage crisis first. Jebiguess (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre. The Be'eri massacre is covered extensively in RS as a standalone event [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6], with the military confrontation as a secondary event, after the killing of 100+ people. Longhornsg (talk) 22:36, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

You do realize the massacre happened during the stand-off right? It isn't a secondary event, but the parent event for the massacre. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The massacre is more notable. So in case of the merge it should have stand-off merge into massacre. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 00:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Correct, but the massacre is more notable SuperSardus (talk) 22:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Merge the later spin-off page into the preceding parent conflict page. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, if these pages are determined to be suitably duplicative to require merging, it is customary to merge the newer content with the older - in this case the "stand-off" page holds precedence, and the other page should duly be merged here - discussions on the renaming should then proceed from there. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre. As per arguments made above. GWA88 (talk) 06:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge massacre into stand-off, then discuss new name. Most news articles discussing the massacre also mention the stand-off, and vice-versa. Currently, it is difficult to determine which title would ultimately emnerge as the agreed upon one. Thus, we should first merge the new spin-off article (the massacre one) into the older original title (the stand-off), and then start a renaming discussion to determine the correct title. Applodion (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge. This is all part of the same incident. Mike McGregor (Can) (talk) 10:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: There is a unanimous consensus here over the merger, which pretty much indicates the users believe both pages refer to the same incident. Also, Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim was created sooner than the other one. The creator of the massacre had to either expand the former page, i.e. Stand-off, or star a new one, with the mentality that the killings require a stand alone article. Now, everybody say there is no need for two pages. So, let's merger the newer page into the older one and then decide over the title based on the reliable sources. Needless to mention that in any case the redirect pages will be kept for both titles, unless they are deleted by discussion. --Mhhossein ^talk 20:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Let's go with consensus, here. Longhornsg (talk) 00:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre. The events of the massacre are more notable. SuperSardus (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment: If this a discussion on whether two articles are duplicates of the same event then the second article created, i.e. the actual duplicate, should be merged with the original. An article that duplicates an earlier article is more generally eligible for speedy deletion, per WP:A10; we are only here because the question of duplication is not clearly answered. The alternative is that it is a parent and child, in which case, the child rejoins the parent. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, redirect the later article into the earlier article, and then have a move discussion on what the article's name and scope should be.VR _talk 17:33, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Support stand-off merge into massacre. That appears to be both the primary headline and the more built-up page. --FeldBum (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m not sure what you mean by “more build-up page”, given that the stand-off article is larger in byte size than the massacre page & the massacre page has a more verification template while the stand-off does not. It would appear the stand-off would be the more build-up page in this circumstance. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Support As per consensus above. Rager7 (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

*Support Merge as, by now, it's a clear-cut case of WP:CONSENSUS. IZAK (talk) 02:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Be'eri and Ofakim are nowhere near each other geographically. What are you all talking about? These completely separate incidents. 70.181.74.117 (talk) 01:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support stand-off merge into massacre for all of this article's information regarding kibbutz Be'eri. The three sentences regarding the Ofakim-Urim area do not warrant a separate article (or inclusion in the Be'eri article) and already exist almost word-for-word in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 12:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support stand-off merge into massacre and remove coverage of Ofakim, per WP:COMMONNAME Marokwitz (talk) 18:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support stand-off merge into massacre per above and WP:RS and create a seperate article about the attack on Ofakim. IZAK (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support stand-off merge into massacre or keep separate. Massacre is more notable. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.