Talk:Spartan Race/Archive 1

Archive 1

File:Spartan Banner.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Making it less like an advert!

I thought it best to start a discussion on how to do this.

Should we remove mentions of things like receiving medals, perhaps? Or removing the calendar (instead including it as an external link)? EdwardRussell (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

calendar clean up

I agree that we should add a link to the schedule instead of the list. I wanted to go more into detail about the trainig required for the race but is hard to tell what works for eveyone. Any opinion on this?

Redircted page

Redirected page was wanted to: Spartan race (company). Consider to find the speedy deletion tag while use on it. Thank you. Bryancyriel (talk) 02:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Full event list is desirable

It looks strange, but getting full list of past events isn't easy. The official website (spartan.com) shows only 2013+ events and many non-USA events doesn't listed. There are national sites like spartanraceuk.uk, but again some events are missed. 88.147.152.5 (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Needs Cleanup of Wording / Please Remove Advertisements

This article contains wording that make it extremely difficult to read.

For instance, the intro text has a lot of parenthesis with the "+" symbol and it makes the reading flow very unprofessional and disorganized.

1. "The series include the Spartan Sprint (3+ miles of obstacle racing, 20+ obstacles), the Super Spartan (8+ miles, 25+ obstacles), the Spartan Beast (13+ miles, 30+ obstacles), and the Ultra Beast (26+ miles, 60+ obstacles - one of two marathon obstacle courses along with Mudderthon)"
2. "Children who complete the courses receive finisher medals, and bragging rights."
3. "Some trifecta qualifiers travel long distances to their race destinations just to achieve this title, but if you are in highly populated areas it will be easier."

I suggest removing the parenthesis and "+" symbols. Giving proper distances and numbers would clean that up nicely. Also, "bragging rights" sounds like a marketing term, and I would remove that altogether. Furthermore, "Some [...] qualifiers travel long distances [...], but if you are in highly populated areas it will be easier." This writing is so incredibly problematic. "It will be easier" shouldn't even be in there. Also, there is no talk of how one must "qualify" to compete for a Trifecta Medal. Yet, the article says "trifecta qualifiers".

A better way to write this without sounding unrefined would possibly be: "In hopes of achieving the Spartan Trifecta Medal, a large percentage of participants travel to out-of-state Spartan events. However, Spartan events near largely populated areas, such as San Francisco or New York City, attract the largest number of out-of-state participants. This leads to the majority of Spartan's Trifecta Medals to be awarded at those densely populated event locations." [With the appropriate references, which which undoubtedly will be extremely difficult to find, in order to support a statement of this magnitude.]

I recommend deleting large portions of writing in many of the existing sections, and perhaps speedily deleting the "Training" section. It looks like blatant advertising material, with text like "coaches are highly trained and qualified individuals who perform community and private training events". This is an advertisement. Jsslee (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Challenger's

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Timothyjosephwood , ScrapIronIV , and other vandals are challenged to meet Julian Kopald in a Court of Law. They are promoting false history and lies. Julian Kopald will meet them anytime and anywhere. Julian Kopald challenges them to reveal their real names and addresses. Why are they lying about the history and vandalizing the Spartan Race page? Jkxyz (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

We need help on this page. The vandals Timothyjosephwood , ScrapIronIV, are defaming both myself and Andrew Weinberg. I want to meet them in a Court of Law and resolve this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkxyz (talk • contribs) 17:09, August 24, 2017 (UTC)

Multiple editors have been trying to assist you with this issue for years. We have been patient, and generally kind. What you have been including is a violation of Wikipedia policies on biographies of living persons. This is an encyclopedia, not a social media site. Everything must be verifiable through reliable sources. Information which fails these standards may not be included in the article. It is as simple as that. Scr★pIron^IV 17:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Jkxyz has been blocked for ongoing legal threat shenanigans and BLP violations. For what it's worth, the only source I can find which only very partially substantiates Jkxyz's claim is this, which mentions Andrew Weinberg but not Julian Kopald. There's also a handful of links which Jkxyz posted up the page, which all point to an obviously and overtly biased source. There's also this source in Spanish, which I think is suggesting that Kopald and De Sena are co-founders, but not Weinberg. I don't know what to make of it all but we need better sourcing for these claims, not legal posturing. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This Page is a Fraud and has no integrity or relation to Truth

Desena did not create anything by himself and is even referenced on his own wikipedia page as the "co-founder". The real founders and references have been removed of both Andy Weinberg and Julian Kopald. This page is fake, a lie, and has no integrity.

https://www.fwweekly.com/2017/06/21/on-%E2%80%A8course/ https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/spartan-race https://www.exercises.com.au/spartan-race/ https://www.itlinnovatorsedge.com/companies/spartan-race http://www.spartanracewarriors.com/ https://www.justpodium.com/spartan-race-para-los-mas-atrevidos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.76.9.97 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Editors Engaged in Vandalism of this page and Defamation of the True Founders

(explicit legal threat removed

"Peak.com and Peak Races were founded ... From the Death Race, the Spartan Race series was born."

It isn't understandable without using some external sources. What is peak.com, Peak Races, Death Race? 88.147.152.12 (talk) 19:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Peak.com and the associated races were started in 2007 by Julian Kopald and Andy Weinberg while Joe sat around.

http://www.josephdesena.exposed/ http://www.joetherat.com/ http://www.josephdesena.org/ http://www.joedesena.org/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkxyz (talk • contribs) 21:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Wait, so Joseph De Sena wasn't one of the original founders of Peak.com / Peak Races / Death Race? And also, the transition from Peak to Spartan Race is not very clear at all. We should either delete this, or cleanup the writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsslee (talk • contribs) 14:06, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

"In 2008 De Sena began the Peak.com Corporation with Julian Kopald to promote endurance sports, including Peak and Spartan.[1]" The founders of the company and all the brands are Joe and Julian. Andy was also considered a founder, but he did not start the company with Joe and Julian. You can find the history of the Death Race and see that it began as the "Peak.com Death Race", then morphed into the "Spartan Death Race" as the Spartan series began to take off. Eventually, Spartan overtook Peak in popularity, so what was "Peak" simply morphed into "Spartan" since this became the focus of the company. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Founders (yet again)

Another editor has chosen to re-add Kopald and Weinberg to the article. I have again reverted, because the sources are (again) either primary, or do not support the contention that both Kopald AND Weinberg were cofounders. They mention either one, or the other. As these are the same sources as used previously, there is clearly no consensus here to use them as sources for this information. Additionally - as these are the exact same sources and exact same content, I am finding it hard to assume good faith in this situation - particularly in light of this edit here. Wikipedia policy is clear on what sources we use - and these sources do not support the claims being made here without performing synthesis of the multiple article. All anyone has ever asked for was a reliable source for this information. Scr★pIron^IV 21:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I actually gave multiple third party references. In no case does a reference need to state all parties involved. For instance, Rugged Maniac is owned by three members, but not all three are mentioned together in most articles. Many hedgefunds and lawfirms are owned by multiple partners, but in most cases only the senior partners are mentioned. If your reasoning is that both Kopald AND Weinberg both need to be mentioned in the same article, I'd say that's flawed. Chris Hughes, for instance, joined Facebook much later after Mark Zuckerberg started and was never mentioned in the early stages. Yet, he is now credited as being one of the founders. That only reference is a primary source. If you care so much about Spartan Race's founders, I also suggest you go remove Facebook's co-founders, or reference Facebook's article properly. Jsslee (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The first races were in 2007. This was when Joe, Julian, and Andy started things. It was Joe and Julian who started the company (Peak.com)(this is admitted on Desena's own Wikipedia), which was led by Kopald until 2013. Joe and Andy were the public faces of the company, because they are endurance sports legends. Kopald does not compete in races, he climbs volcanos, and was the guy who actually managed the marketing, strategy, and operations in the background. This is why Kopald is not mentioned, but rarely, because it was a strategic marketing decision to focus on Joe and Andy (as the faces of the brands). Yet, rest assured... in the background, Julian Kopald founded the company and ran the show. Joe Desena is scared of Julian Kopald today, because Kopald knows that Desena is lying about "Everything" related to how these brands began, and unlike Weinberg, Kopald refused to sign a confidentiality agreement when Desena sued both Kopald and Weinberg. In the end, Desena pushed both of the co-founders out of the company, changed the history, and only Kopald can now speak on it, as Weinberg took money and signed a confidentiality agreement. Kopald refused, beat Desena 21 times in Court, and that story is Last Race 3:16 (.com).

To summarize... Joe and Julian started/founded the company... and Julian ran the company until around 2013 when there was a lawsuit between the three characters... and since then, Desena has removed both Julian and Andy from the "official" history of the company (which is false).

This is why you wont see, or find "new" references to the actual history of the company. The "official" story from Spartan is fake and simply reflects the ego of Desena and his elimination of his co-founders and the people who actually ran the company in the early years.155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Not only do I know all three of the founders, but I highly recommend reading Last Race 316 if one is interested in the history of the company, because it's full of links to actual court documents and hilarious in many ways. You learn about how Joe and Julian rigged an Outside Magazine poll awarding Spartan "Best Race of the Year"(?)... there are actual discussions of the strategy between Julian and Joe (that the world now sees in existence)... and then there is the actual "drama", which is presented as some sort of wrestling fight... and it's totally gonzo. What happened in the background between Desena and Kopald (especially)(Weinberg too) to create what the world now knows as Spartan really gives credence to the notion that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

And this is exactly why it can't be included in the article. Without reliable, independent, third party sources, inclusion would violate Wikipedia's standards for verifiability. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - not a social media site, not a rumor mill, and certainly not a place to make accusations. It appears that your truth is already published on the site you have mentioned repeatedly, and you will need to be satisfied with that. Wikipedia will be happy to include such information when it is published in a reliable source which adheres to the encyclopedia's standards. Scr★pIron^IV 19:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

You're a vandal and have removed references repeatedly while lying about your ability to find the references. Furthermore, you have committed fraud by removing the founders. The true founders will be returned and you should be sued for fraud.

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Spartan_race https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/spartan-race https://www.funderbeam.com/startups/tracktivity?ref=teleport http://visitandorra.com/en/agenda/spartan-race-encamp-2017/ https://www.exercises.com.au/spartan-race/ https://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/5804627196bde6a46b8b4567/mengenal-spartan-race-ajang-olahraga-ekstrem-amp-tangguh/ http://www.jendelatanjungpinang.com/2016/11/serunya-menonton-olahraga-esktrem.html https://readjungle.com/front/lp/s1-md1?pubkey=1501404431&offerid=87583&dp1=gdcvo.ml&dp2=&dp3=&q=spartan%20race&hash=32364a74764f6667706a505148644446356d545948673d3d9ad9c https://www.fwweekly.com/2017/06/21/on-%E2%80%A8course/ http://content.wow.com/wiki/Spartan_race https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliankopald http://www.celebrityweightloss.com/300-workout-review/ http://sealgrinderpt.com/spartan-race/spartan-race-coupon-code.html/ https://www.itlinnovatorsedge.com/companies/spartan-race http://www.spartanracewarriors.com/ https://www.justpodium.com/spartan-race-para-los-mas-atrevidos https://alchetron.com/Joe-De-Sena-404873-W

155.186.103.65 (talk) 18:44, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Here's another reference that was removed by vandals posing as "editors". ScrapIron IV says this isn't a social media site, but clearly it is, because he posts and removes content while having no knowledge of anything he's editing. He was never part of Peak.com, LOL.

https://www.fwweekly.com/2017/06/21/on-%E2%80%A8course/

155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Additionally... there are no "accusations" being made beyond that this page is being vandalized by ScrapIron IV and others who have no knowledge of Peak.com or Spartan... and who are consistently removing references and the true founders. They know nothing about these companies and their editing is nothing more than "writing a blog, or doing social media" since they have no personal knowledge, no access to the characters involved, and no idea what they are speaking on. The founders are Julian Kopald and Joe Desena, and Andy Weinberg was also always considered a founder even though technically, he did not start the company with Joe and Julian.

So... again, until the real founders are returned... this page is not a true and complete history. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 20:24, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

There needs to be more sources stating that Julian and Andy are founders of Spartan. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot. Linkedin doesn't count as a source. If you find articles that say "Julian Kopald and Andy Weinberg are co-founders of Spartan Race", then we can add them in. Even if it's true, we need sources to back them up. I thought I had enough sources but they didn't explicitly say "co-founders of Spartan". They said "co-founder of Death Race". Your situation is unfortunate, but we need sources to back up your story. If you took him to court and won, bring out those court transcripts, perhaps? Jsslee (talk) 17:42, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

"The Spartan Race is the brainchild of Andy Weinberg, Julian Kopald, and Joe De Sena, who together started a series of OCR in 2007 called Peak Races." [2]

There you go Jsslee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.186.103.65 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Julian Kopald is the founder of Peak.com and Spartan is a brand created by Peak.com

The notion that there are no references to Kopald is a complete lie by ScrapIron and others who have been vandalizing this page.

Julian Kopald started Peak.com and everything to follow. any other story is complete nonsense. Kopald doesn't need to be in some stupid magazines or pose for pictures like Desena.

Desena admits in his deposition that the Death Race started in 2007, not 2004.... and it was held at Julian Kopald's house, LOL. This page is complete BS and nothing but Desena lies.

• http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Spartan_race - Wikipedia mirror, cannot use
• https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/spartan-race - user-submitted content, cannot use
• https://www.funderbeam.com/startups/tracktivity?ref=teleport - webpage about an unrelated startup? irrelevant
• http://visitandorra.com/en/agenda/spartan-race-encamp-2017/ - pulls data from user-submitted websites; unreliable
• https://www.exercises.com.au/spartan-race/ - WordPress blog; unreliable
• https://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/5804627196bde6a46b8b4567/mengenal-spartan-race-ajang-olahraga-ekstrem-amp-tangguh/ - public Internet discussion forum; unreliable
• http://www.jendelatanjungpinang.com/2016/11/serunya-menonton-olahraga-esktrem.html - a blog post by a participant; unreliable and probably COI
• https://readjungle.com/front/lp/s1-md1?pubkey=1501404431&offerid=87583&dp1=gdcvo.ml&dp2=&dp3=&q=spartan%20race&hash=32364a74764f6667706a505148644446356d545948673d3d9ad9c - registration-required website, cannot review content
• https://www.fwweekly.com/2017/06/21/on-%E2%80%A8course/ - addressed above
• http://content.wow.com/wiki/Spartan_race - Wikipedia mirror, cannot use
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliankopald - LINKEDIN IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE
• http://www.celebrityweightloss.com/300-workout-review/ - site with an obvious promotional conflict, also with an origin story that conflicts with every other source so far mentioned
• http://sealgrinderpt.com/spartan-race/spartan-race-coupon-code.html/ - site with questionable reliability, does not contradict the current reliably-sourced statements in the article
• https://www.itlinnovatorsedge.com/companies/spartan-race - user-submitted content, cannot use
• http://www.spartanracewarriors.com/ - someone's blog, publishes clear advertisements as blog entries with no apparent editorial oversight; unreliable
• https://www.justpodium.com/spartan-race-para-los-mas-atrevidos - site with a non-obvious promotional conflict
• https://alchetron.com/Joe-De-Sena-404873-W - Wikipedia mirror, cannot use

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.186.103.65 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Itemized responses to references added above in red. The summary is that the information we currently have in the article is cited to high-quality, independent sources of high reliability, while the information you want to add can only be found in a collection of blogs, Wikipedia mirrors, and sites trying to sell something. The fact you keep coming back here with these flimsy sources and bragging about your legal record while all reliable sources indicate that the matter was settled out of court makes me pretty sure that everything you say is some degree of falsehood. The fact you went to the trouble of looking up my full real name and threatening legal action against me personally doesn't impress me at all. Now stop harassing our volunteers and go do something else. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:33, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I think the FWWeekly article counts. Jsslee (talk) 22:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

It counts as much as the fake editor badges you have given yourself here. Unless you admit that you do not know the difference between "and" and "or" - you need both time in grade and accomplishments, not just one or the other. This piece was written by a participant, for a local newspaper. That doesn't cut it as a quality source. Scr★pIron^IV 23:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change to History subsection

Current:

Peak.com and Peak Races were founded in 2007 by Joe De Sena. Peak Races, the parent company of "Death Race", eventually went on to create the current Spartan Race series. The first Spartan Race event was held in 2010 at the Catamount Outdoor Center in Williston, Vermont and represented the city of Burlington, Vermont. Roughly 500 competitors had to "run, crawl, jump and swim" and overcome a variety of obstacles. All finishers received a medal, and prizes were awarded to the top athletes.

References

Proposed:

Spartan Race began as a spin-off of the "Death Race", a 48-hour endurance event founded by Joe De Sena and Andy Weinberg in 2004. Spartan was founded by De Sena, intended as a more manageable endurance race for a wider audience. The first Spartan Race event was held in 2010 at the Catamount Outdoor Center in Williston, Vermont and represented the city of Burlington, Vermont. Roughly 500 competitors had to "run, crawl, jump and swim" and overcome a variety of obstacles. All finishers received a medal, and prizes were awarded to the top athletes.

References

Rationale: the Outside Magazine source is the only one I've been able to find which seems to neutrally cover the origin and history of Spartan along with a discussion of the legal dispute between its founders, and seems to be a sufficiently reliable source to go by. I'm pretty distrustful of the "therichest.com" source, which is removed in my edit. I still haven't seen anything unbiased which mentions Julian Kopald at all so he is not mentioned in my edit, and I haven't added any details about the legal dispute which might be relevant somewhere else in the article, but I haven't gotten into it. Thoughts? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I believe that "TheRichest.com" shouldn't be used as a reputable source of information. It seems that someone associated with Joe Desena must have submitted a profile for "Joe Desena Net Worth" with some serious issues. First of all, the omission of Joe's net worth. Secondly, multiple misspellings, including his own name "Joe Decena". Jsslee (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I have no issue with the proposed wording, as it is supported by the cited article. I have also looked for sources which would mention Kopald, and have been unsuccessful in finding any. Scr★pIron^IV 21:18, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, per those same sources, Weinberg should be removed from the infobox as a founder of Spartan Race. The cited article specifies Weinberg as a founder of Death Race, NOT Spartan Race. Scr★pIron^IV 21:28, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with both of these comments. TheRichest.com does look like a profile submitted by De Sena or a PR firm, and especially doesn't seem to have been verified by anyone at all. I also agree that sources don't support Weinberg as a founder of Spartan but I think it's worth mentioning his involvement in the Death Races that Spartan spun off from. There's ample sourcing for De Sena and Weinberg co-founding Death Race. The only sources that mention Kopald at all are the two Spanish magazines, and they don't provide any context so I don't know where to go on that. Also, the video link is dead and I can't find a replacement, so I just tagged it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:17, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree that Weinberg founding Peak and Death Race is well-sourced. We can add that in. Seems like there's quite a bit of controversy and "he said, she said" going on in this company. Jsslee (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done - I've made the edit as proposed. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:01, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The Death Race and Spartan are brands created by the Peak.com corporation. Who started the Peak.com corporation? Julian Kopald and Joe Desena. The founders are listed on Desena's own Wikipedia page. The founders of all the brands are the founders of the company... this is basic logic 101. Until the real founders are returned... this page is fake. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

If you look at the Outside article... it very clearly says "*During the editing process, the fact that one of the defendants had yet to settle but was in discussions to do so was removed. Outside regrets the error." That defendant was Julian Kopald, who founded Peak.com, refused to settle when he and Weinberg were pushed out of the company by Desena, and Outside removed him from the article at his demand since he ended up beating Desena and proving that Desena had fabricated his claims. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

additionally... people can see that both Weinberg and Kopald list themselves as founders on their Linked In profiles

https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliankopald https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-weinberg-770404a5/

Either they both are engaged in fraud, or they both are founders. Kopald definitely is the/a founder because he started Peak.com, which created Spartan (and he did own a Llamma for years prior to starting Spartan, named "Spartan").

The editors of this page should ask themselves if they really believe that BOTH Kopald and Weinberg are committing resume fraud (?). Kopald has made it clear that he will sue and fight anyone who says he didn't start Peak.com (and Spartan, which is a Brand of the Peak.com Corp, along with "Death Race", etc) and he did beat Desena in Court over 20 times, so you guys can do the math on that. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

You guys really think this guy is lying? https://twitter.com/jayralez/status/850995018315812864 I don't. 155.186.103.65 (talk) 19:54, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Some more sources

Some more sources I came across while doing another search. Some might be useful here, I haven't time at the moment to review in any kind of detail.

• Spartan race raises money for Canadian soldiers, CTV News, 19 Jun 2011
• Disgraced Spartan Race founder resigns after falsely claiming to be Royal Marine, Inside The Games, 3 Jan 2014
• Endurance race organiser admits he lied about being an ex-Royal Marine, The Telegraph, 2 Jan 2014
• In Cold Mud, The New Yorker, 27 Jan 2014
• Spartan Race UK Have A New Leader – Interview With Dan Tuffnell, Mudstacle, 5 Nov 2014
• Empty charity promises from Spartan Race, WTSP 10 News, undated (I think we already discounted this one)
• Investigating Spartan Race's charity claims, WTSP 10 News, 14 Feb 2015
• Episode 127 – Selica Sevigny-Spartan Founder, Obstacle Racing Media, 24 Apr 2015
• Meet the Most Punishing Man in Fitness, Outside Online, 10 Jun 2014 (different from the Outside source we already have in the article)

Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Charity?

Any current references to the charity efforts? I can't find much on the Spartan Foundation. Mrsquat1300 (talk) 16:50, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

When I looked (see the list above) I didn't find anything more recent than the 2015 investigative news piece. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Types of races

Any benefit to delineating the type of races? I lean no.Mrsquat1300 (talk) 20:17, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Changed my mind after looking at some similar races. Mrsquat1300 (talk) 02:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)