Talk:Saponi

Tribal heritage

Note: The content in this site has no affiliation with the recognized Tribe of Sappony. The contributors are violating the cultural property rights of the Sappony by using the name and identity of an existing Tribe. The inaccurate content and affiliation should not be permitted. The information is grossly inaccurate and dismissive.

NOTE: Proceed with caution! The following info contains personal opinion and conjecture. Rife with bad grammar and inaccuracies, the majority of data provided here should be treated as "entertainment" to promote further study. Insitemobile (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I would like to offer a corrective here. The "Saponi" groups recognized today in North Carolina merely claim that tribal heritage. There is no proof that any are actually the descendants of the Saponi. Historical records from North Carolina, Pennsylvania and New York indicate the Saponi moved north from Virginia about 1744, merged with the Five Nations (or Six Nations, inclcuding the Tuscarora, from North Carolina) by 1753, and were essentially absorbed into several northern Iroquois groups. The last distinct Saponi village in New York was decimated during the American Revolution.

To date, none of the tribes in North Carolina, except for the Eastern Band of Cherokee, has any proven descent from Native American tribes.

This is not true. People who descend from the Chowanoke or Mattamuskeet Indians can very clearly prove their descent. The Chowan Indians were named in deeds as late as the 1820s, and the Mattamuskeet were enumerated as Indians in the 1850 census in Hyde County. It's very easy to demonstrate their descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7D0:87DE:7B80:A8F6:1DDB:226E:5E5F (talk) 12:34, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, the page doesn't say that today's North Carolina groups have proven their ancestry, merely that the state recognizes three groups and that some people claim ancestry, but it is controversial. Sounds ok to me. I think there is pretty good evidence (but not proof as far as I know) that not all the Saponi and related peoples moved north to the Iroquois lands. There's a fairly in-depth study on the topic published on the web here http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part2/index2_1.html or as a PDF here http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/NCArch/SIS_40(e-book).pdf ..some of which is summarized over at Occaneechi. In any case, I don't see anything about proof on this page, so I'm not sure what you would like to correct. Pfly 20:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually you need to do some more reading about the Saponi before you decide to make a statement like that. There is ample proof that the Tutelo that went to the 6 Nations were not the last of the Saponi or Tutelo, simply a small group that left. (See Richard Carlson) http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/fullcit/3115947

'Who's your people?': Cumulative identity among the Salyersville Indian population of Kentucky's Appalachia and the midwest muckfields, 1677--2000

His dissertation is one of several that show proof of the history and ancestory of our people. There are court records, census records, and even field ethnology reports about our people. Just because a tribe or people isn't recognized by the Federal government or even a state doesn't mean they are not a people or Indian.

Also the following from a very prominent field ethnographer Robert K. Thomas:

Here is the letter written to a lady in Coeburn, VA in 1980, submitted by Keri Conley: August 12, 1980 Dear Mrs. Stallard: I am writing to you to thank you and your husband for your kindness to me when I was in Coeburn last month. I am now finished with my survey of the Indian groups in the southern Appalachian area and am back in Michigan. Since you seemed interested in the history of the Collins family in your area, I will pass along to you what I know of their history. As far as I can determine, all the Collins of Northeastern Tennessee, Southeastern Virginia, and Eastern Kentucky are descendants of one household of Collins who resided in Orange County, N.C. in 1760: a family of Saponi Indians. I know that it must be “mind-boggling” to imagine that the thousands of Collinses in your area are all descended from just one household, but such is the case. Further, this is not so amazing as it sounds. It is common among pre-Revolutionary American families. For instance, all the Carters in the South are descended from three brothers who came to Virginia in the late 1600’s. Let me start at the beginning , with the Saponi Indians. The Saponi were an advanced tribe who originally lived on the Roanoke River about where it crosses over into North Carolina from Virginia. In the late 1660’s, they moved further west to the area of modern Clarksville, VA. Here they allied with the neighboring Tutelo and Occanuki Indians. All of these tribes spoke similar languages, a variety of language akin to modern Sioux of the Dakotas. In the 1670’s, they got into a war with Virginia whites, the so-called Bacon Rebellion, and moved west to the Yadkin Valley around modern Winston Salem. In the early 1700’s, the Saponi started migrating east, returning to their original homeland. In 1714 Governor Spotswood of Virginia established Ft. Christanna near modern Lawrenceville,VA and convinced the Saponi, Occanuki, and Tutelo to settle there. In about 1722, the Tutelo left and joined the Iroquois in New York , and during the Revolution, fled to Canada where they now live on the Six Nations Reserve near Brantford, Ontario. The Occanuki were absorbed by the Saponi in this period. About 1728, the Saponi became involved in a war with the Tuscarora and Nottowa Indians who lived further east. They fled from Ft. Christanna, and went to live with the Catawba in South Carolina. In the early 1740’s, the Saponi left the Catawba country and started north. By 1740, Collins and Bowling (Scien, Bolling, etc.) were common family names among the Saponi. One band of Saponi headed north to the Iroquois area and were adopted by the Cayuga and Seneca. There are descendants of the Saponi now on the Caltaraugus’s reservation near Buffalo; some of them named Collins. Another band of Saponi stopped in North Carolina and settled on the plantation of Colonel William Eaton, near what is now Henderson, N.C. The Saponi had fought with Eaton in the wars with the Ohio Valley tribes. Eaton’s plantation was on the frontier and the Saponi were, no doubt, his protectors. Around 1750, several tribes further east --- the Nansemond, Yeopin, and Poroskite --- lost their lands and began to fragment into individual family groups. These Indian families began to migrate to the frontier and settle near the Saponi. In 1760, Eaton died and the frontier had moved on. The Saponi lost their land base then and also began to fragment into individual families, and move west. In 1760’s, I can pick up the Collins in Orange County, on the frontier, west of Hendersonville, N.C. By 1790, many of these Indian families, including the Collinses, had “bunched up” in the counties of extreme northeastern North Carolina. Then in the 1790’s, they spread all over Northeastern Tennessee, Southwestern Virginia, and over into what is now Letcher and Knott Counties, Kentucky. Many of them , like the Bollings of Wise County, became prominent families in their areas. Then, in the 1830’s, Virginia became one of the more consciously racist and deliberately elitist states in the Union. First , most poor whites were disenfranchised by a property value requirement; most Virginians west of the Blue Ridge, as well as the poor further east, could not legally vote in Virginia. Further, a new legal category included citizen Indians, free blacks, and all non-whites. These “free colored” could not vote, bear arms, travel freely, etc. In southwest Virginia and neighboring parts of Tennessee, the more established Indian families “weathered the storm”. The Bollings in Wise County, redefined their status as being descendants of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, thus escaping the free colored category. Other families who were less wealthy, darker, and concentrated in one area, got caught in the free colored category; and, thus the Melungeons of southern Wise County came into existence. By 1840, the situation became intolerable for some Indians in Southwest Virginia, and they began to head for Kentucky, a less repressive social and legal atmosphere. In the 1840’s, three Collins families moved into Kentuckey, into Letcher County. In the 1850’s, two Collins families moved to Johnson County, just south of Paintsville (Grandpap William Collins and brother). {Frankie’s note here: This is where my 2nd great grandparents Griffin and Rachael Collins went also, and were listed as Mulatto on Johnson County census records} These Collinses were very Indian looking and dark. They must have been almost full-blood Indians.} In Virginia, Tennessee, and North Carolina, Indians were just another variety of “n----r” in the 1850’s, but Kentucky was much more liberal, at least in regards to Indians. By World War I, the situation had changed. Being Indian had almost a romantic prestige about it, and many families like the Collinses in Kentucky, had become successful mainstream citizens. It was at this piont that the Melungeons began to be seen as possibly being part black, in order to explain their low rank and exclusion. Of coarse, the Collinses did not stop in Johnson County. The lower Big Sandy drainage and Southern Ohio is full of Collinses who migrated to those areas from further south in Kentucky and Virginia after the Civil War. Not all the Collinses headed west in 1760 after Colonel Eaton died. Some few went south to what is now Robeson County, North Carolina, and became part of the modern Lumbee Indians in that region. The history of the Collins family is both remarkable and fascinating. They are almost an “ethnic group” all by themselves. There are Seneca Cayuga Collinses in New York, White and Melungeon Collinses in east Tennessee and Southeast Virginia, part-Indian Collinses all down the Big Sandy and into Southern Ohio, Lumbee Indian Collinses in North Carolina --- all, at least distantly, related and all descended from two or three households of Saponi Indians in 1740. Someone should write a novel about your family; at least, you should rent a stadium and have a family reunion. What an “outfit”! I hope this brief sketch of the Collins family history repays you for your kindness to me, some small measure. Sincerely, Robert K. Thomas

Further reading on Robert K. Thomas can be found here to validate his work on the Native American Indian experience:

http://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/

The Real Saponi

The photo on the Saponi wiki page is of the Guy family, they was Catawba, NOT Saponi.

Also the "Occaneechi Saponi" and "Sapony" tribes in NC have no proof of any Saponi decent. These two tribe's ancestors was not in The Granville area till around the late 1700's to early 1800's. They are using information about the Saponi and Collins family. The "Sapony" tribe descends from the Nottoway tribe while the occaneechi Saponi tribe descends from the Catawba tribe so they should NOT be added to this page which discuses the Saponi. If this page was about Catawba or Nottoway then the "Sapony" and "Occaneechi Saponi" would belong...however this is about the historical Saponi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 15:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Below is the letters sent to Indian Affairs by the Ancestors of the "Occaneechi Saponi". It specifically mentions the Guy family which is listed in the photo on this Saponi wiki page....it shows how that photo belongs to the Catawba not Saponi.

Feb. 1897, U.S. Senate Document #144, entitled "The Catawba Tribe of Indians", the report says that "Dr. Joseph McDowell, of Fairmont, GA, under date of October, 1872, stated that the Indians referred to, and asking relief of the Government, were "Catawba Indians, and 81 in number." Dr. McDowell (who had married one of the Guy women and wrote at least two letters to the Indian Office on behalf of her people) also provided a list of the names and ages of the individuals whom he said wished the government to assist them in moving west to Indian Territory. The report further states that "William Guy, of Granville County, Ga (sic NC), and Simon Jeffries, of Bellville, Virginia, Catawba Indians, served five years in the Army and were honorably discharged, and these people are their descendants." He further states in his letter of October 1869, addressed to Eli Parker, U.S. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, that "I take the Liberty of addressing to you a few lines on behalf of a remnant of the tribe of Catawba Indians…Some 60 or 70 years since they left their tribe and went to Greenville County, Virginia, and then removed to Orange County, North Carolina…they sold out in Orange and moved to Macon County, N.C. where they purchased land and remained every since." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 15:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

you might want to read this

http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1944/native_american_names.htm , William Guy claims Saponi/ Catawba. You see a persons " tribe": as everyone wants to call it had only to do with location not always was that your historical heritage/ that is not always about lineage nor were they really a tribe.. but just a city . But just locations of people of the same tribe-language , at the moment . we have to think of towns like they were clans of each other and they were all and had interbred for ages with each other . You are trying to make one people out of many people , and many kinds of people into one idea as if you can separate each city from it's nation into it's own thing , that would be a wrong way to think about it . LIKE Washington Dc isn't more or less " American" than New York or Hoboken it is still the same nation.. with yes tiny bits of differences. not that big.. Cofitachiqui (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)signed Cofitachiqui 15:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC) (this is my first edit , and someone please help me edit my addition info )

The Real Saponi part 2

27 Sept 1728 "Sir: The 27th of September John Carter brought Negro Cofey to my house, as he says, by your orders, for me to examine concerning what the Saponys have told him about the white people, which I have done, and he tells me: that Great George told him that John Sauano and a fellow called Ben Harrison was gone to the Cotobers to fetch one hundred of them to come and see why their Indians was put in prison, and if Capt. Tom was hanged they would carry their wives and children over the Roanoke River and then they would drive the white people and negros as far as James River, and he says that Tony Mack told him that if Pyah was hanged he and the Cotobers would come and take revenge of the English, and he says that Sapony Tom told him if his son Harry Erwin was hanged they would kill you and three or four more Gentlemen and then go off," The original document is held by the Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA and will give you a copy of the original.

In 1730, "William Bohannon came into court and made oath that about twenty-six of the Sapony Indians that inhabit Colonel Spotswood's land in Fox's neck go about and do a great deal of mischief by firing the woods; more especially on the 17th day of April last whereby several farrows of pigs were burnt in their beds, and that he verily believes that one of the Indians shot at him the same day, the bullet entering a tree within four feet of him; that he saw the Indian about one hundred yards from him, and no game of any sort between them; that the Indian after firing his gun stood in a stooping manner very studdy [steady] so that he could hardly discern him from a stump, that he has lost more of his pigs than usual since the coming of the said Indians; which is ordered to be certified to the General Assembly. " Orange county VA

1740: About this time a number of Saponi and the Majority if not all the Tutelo move to shamokin, Pennsylvania under Iroqious protestion.

1742 ""Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Saponi Indians being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother and on suspicion of stealing hoggs........" Orange county, VA (Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel 31, Va

"25 Jan 1745 Louisa County, Virginia Court: William Hall, Samuel Collins, William Collins, Samuel Bunch, George Gibson, Benjamin Brannum, Thomas Gibson, & William Donothan appear to answer an indictment for concealing tithables. Plead not guilty, Case continued."

1749: 3598 pg 384 WILLIAM MACKINTOSH 13 October 1749 200 acres in Johnston County on the S. side of the Neuse River on a place called Powells run near Sapony Camps, joining near the sd. run.

1751 near Orange county Va: A party of indians visit a Indian burial mound, Thomas Jefferson observed this in which he later dug into. "A party of Indians passing about 1751 where this barrow is, near Charlottesville, went through the woods directly to it, without any instructions or inquiry, and having staid about it some time, with expressions construed to be those of sorrow, returned to the high road, which they had left about six miles to pay this visit, and pursued their journey."" This was the county bordering Orange county Va.

1753: The Tutelo and some Saponi are adopted into the League of Iroqious.

1754: Granville—Willm Eaton Esqr Coll: of Granville county His Regimt consists of 8 companys 734 besides officers 2 Captns Simms & Jones are moved away the others Resigned He thinks the fines on delinquents should be fixed by a Court Martial. No arms or ammunition in the Stores There are about 12 or 14 Sapona men and as many women & children in the county Major Payne by Col: Eaton for Granville county recommends John Martin to be Captn over part of Sugar Jones Company & Willm Hawkins Captn over the other part above Shaws Road and John Hawkins Captn over part of Richd Coleman's Company & Willm Johnston over part of Willm Harris Company & Willm Paton Captn instead of Benjamin Sims moved away Capt Hursts Troop with officers 32. Report concerning the militia in each county of North Carolina Creator: No Author 1754 Volume 5, Pages 161 - 163. Found on Page 162.

April 19 1755: Abstracts of the Minutes of the Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions Rowan County, North Carolina 1753-1762 II:72 19 April 1755 Esquires present: Jas Carter, Jno Handby, Alexr Osburn & Thos Potts. … Whereas John Auston a Saponia Indian and Mary a Susquhanah Indian and Thos a Cattaaba applied for a pass to the Cataba Nation being now on their Journey to conclude a Genl Peace with ye Catabas in behalf of the Sd Nation and also presented 3 Belts of Wampum to Sd Court by which the sd Treaty is to be concluded. Copyright Jo White Linn 1977 Mrs. Stahle Linn, Jr. Box 1948 Salisbury, N.C. 28144 Stamped (Carnegie Public Library, Washington C. H., Ohio 43160)"

1761: A 1761 report counted 20 Saponi warriors in the area of Granville County, NC Quere 13 What is the number of the Indians inhabiting those parts of America lyeing within or bounding upon your Province? What Contracts or Treaties of Peace have been made with them and are now in force? What Trade is carried on with them and under what Regulations and how have these Regulations been established? Answer The only Tribes or remains of Tribes of Indians residing in this Province are the Tuskerora Sapona Meherin and Maramuskito Indians. The Tuskerora have about 100 fighting men the Saponas and Meherrin Indians about 20 each and the Maramuskitos about 7 or 8. the first 3 are situated in the Middle of the Colony upon and near Roanoak and have by Law 10,000 acres of Land allotted to them in Lord Granvilles District they live chiefly by hunting and are in perfect friendship with the Inhabitants

The Catauba Indians who are also in close friendship with the Inhabitants resided upon the Cataubas river near our Western Frontier near the Boundary Line in 35° No Latitude proposed to be laid out betwixt this and the South Province they consisted within these few years of about 300 fighting men but last year the small pox ravaged in their Towns which made them desert them and leave their sick behind them to perish; by an account from their King Haglar to me they are reduced to 60 fighting and about as many old men and boys and a suitable number of Women, upon which and the Cherokee war they removed farther West upon or near the Boundary Line where they have had a Town laid out for them in South Carolina but allege that they are still within this Government Mr. Glenn wantonly promised them a District of 30 Miles radius round their Towns, which wod have contained about 1,800,000 acres, but now as they are reduced I suppose less than 10,000 acres will content them. page 616 Report by Arthur Dobbs concerning general conditions in North Carolina Creator: Arthur Dobbs (1689-1765) 1761 Volume 6 [B. P. R. O. North Carolina B. T. Vol. 14. E. 53.] THE COLONY, ITS CLIMATE, SOIL, POPULATION, GOVERNMENT, RESOURCES, &c. An Answer to the several Queries sent by the Lords Commissioners for Trade and Plantations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Language Research

Has there been any independent research conducted to link the Person County group to the Sapponi? 155.84.57.253 (talk) 17:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

History vs culture wars

This article needs a lot of work, most of which I cannot perform, especially not in Illinois. I really don't want to get stuck in culture wars, though. While I appreciated the long letter included earlier on this talk page, I think the article needs lots of trimming, combined with citeable references and wikilinks. Quite simply, while in the colonial era, people of european descent and high social status probably thought more highly of Native Americans (possibly to justify unfair treaties), by the 19th century, anyone with any bit of African ancestry was lumped as Negro and discriminated against. Still, in this article, I think the focus should be on the Saponi, not discuss racism at length.Jweaver28 (talk) 03:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Change of name of the tribe

We are at an editathon at Chapel Hill, and tribal members have requested that we update this article to their preferred spelling, Sappony. This spelling is also used in the LEARN NC guide to teaching about North Carolina American Indians, which has been written and approved by tribal members. --Djembayz (talk) 00:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Saponi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

stub, needs expansion and separate language artifle if possible --Skookum1 (12 May 06) Also needs ethnobox --Miskwito 14:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 01:13, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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Theories of the origins of Haliwa-Saponi and Cherokees

A combination of native peoples of Eastern North America and from other continents before the discovery of this continent by Christopher Columbus in 1492. Sapon not only means "black" or "brown", there was a village called Japan, North Carolina displaced by a dam project in the 1930s had theorized their ancestors were East Asian (most likely of Japanese origin) who arrived in the west coast and traveled east into the Gulf and later Atlantic coasts over 1,000 years ago. And the Haliwa might be of Siberian (Turkic?) and Polynesian (similar to Hawaii and Micronesia) origins crossed western Canada and or the narrower Mexican peninsula roughly the same time. A DNA test can confirm this, but the Cherokee or anyone who claimed Cherokee and Haliwa-Saponi descent in DNA tests in recent years, find they were often of Scottish/English and other Northern/Western European, with some Spanish/Portuguese, Black or West African, even Sephardic Jewish and Moorish-Berber-Arab genetic lineage, with relatively few or absent Amerindian in them. 12.218.47.124 (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Removed section on community recognized tribal groups

After reading through the cited sources, I found nothing that supports the implied claim that the various mentioned groups have been recognized by any entity that would entitle them to be mentioned in this article, or that would support any claim to notability. - Donald Albury 22:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary, the midwestern groups are well-connected to and recognized by other tribal groups. The restriction of "notability" to only tribes recognized by the federal government, rather than socially recognized by other Indian tribes, is inappropriate. The references to the History pages of two state-recognized tribes, the Haliwa-Saponi and the Occaneechi Band of the Saponi Nation, fulfill this requirement; both pages explicitly state that a community of Saponi people from Granville/Alamance/Orange and from Northampton/Halifax/Warren counties moved north to Ohio.

"During the early 1800s these Indian descendants remained isolated in the Meadows area, home of the modern Haliwa-Saponi Tribe, and tried not to make waves, especially in the midst of government policies to remove all Indians living east of the Mississippi River. In 1835 North Carolina amended its constitution and barred people of color from voting and participating in the government. Many Haliwa-Saponi families reacted by migrating to areas north and west such as Chillicothe, Ohio, which had more favorable laws for non-white peoples. Other families chose to continue their lives in the Meadows." -- A Brief Haliwa-Saponi History (https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://s748557088.onlinehome.us/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/A-Brief-Haliwa-Saponi-Tribal-History.pdf&hl=en)

"The acculturated community occupied a small tri-border area in what are now Greensville County, Virginia, Brunswick County, Virginia, and Northampton County, North Carolina. Their settlement was also midway between two forts built for the Indians by Virginia, and about 10 miles south of a third fort, near modern-day Purdy, Virginia, that was apparently built by the Indians themselves, probably for defense against Iroquois raiders from the north. More precisely, the community’s land was located south of modern Emporia, Virginia (Greensville County), west into Brunswick County, and extending across the State line into the northwestern corner of Northampton County, North Carolina and to the Roanoke River. Researchers for the OBSN have documented the development of this community from the late 17th through the early 19th centuries, by which time emigration to the Midwest and other parts of the South had reduced it to a handful of families."

These groups are further identified in the following books, dissertations and journal articles: - MARVIN M. RICHARDSON: Racial Choices: The Emergence of the Haliwa-Saponi Indian Tribe, 1835-1971 https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/concern/dissertations/8c97kq961?locale=en (see: Chapter 1)

"A large group of Meadows Indians migrated to Ohio after 1835 and took advantage of fewer race-based restrictions. Their migration provided more economic opportunities, education, freedom of movement, and inspired Civil War military service as part of the U.S. Colored Troops. Those who stayed in the Meadows faced another challenge in 1865, after the end of the Civil War and emancipation. They developed social and religious institutions to maintain their distinct identity as Natives, while also exercising rights as Americans. Using institutions such as landownership, family, the military, and church, Meadows Indians debated the consequences of these changes and how they could keep their core identity markers alive." (pg 26, Chapter 1)

- BLAKE A. WATSON: Indian Gambling in Ohio: What Are the Odds https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/capulr32&div=16&id=&page=

- North from the Mountains: A Folk History of the Carmel Melungeon Settlement By John S. Kessler, Donald B. Ball https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=qX7gRuT1zyQC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=ohio+saponi&ots=oPfdFiHvyd&sig=Mw1xlcq3Ti7725TBI3J1lWXBZkE#v=onepage&q=ohio%20saponi&f=false

- PAUL TAMBURRO: Ohio Valley Native Americans Speak: Indigenous Discourse on the Continuity of Identity https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/7308

If desired, tribal name rolls, dialogue between tribal members and leadership, and tribal genealogies connecting the migrant Ohio groups to the state-recognized groups can probably be referenced here -- but these have not been made publicly available, and so special requests would need to be made.

Further -- the Federal Register Notice of Intent to Petition, submitted by the Saponi Nation of Ohio in 1998, is of note, as is the Intent to Petition submitted by the Saponi Nation of Missouri -- and their subsequent acquisition of a federal grant for Indian services, referenced in this GAO report (https://www.gao.gov/assets/600/590102.pdf).

2606:A000:4846:3300:7C7B:243B:5B6C:2419 (talk) 11:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Please note the requirements for sources to be considered reliable in Wikipedia. That content guideline states, "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." The websites of tribes recognized by the Federal and/or state governments generally have limited usage as sources, primarily to support non-controversial statements about the tribal organizations. While some of the sources cited in the article state that some Sappony moved to Ohio and other midwestern states, they do not establish that such people have continuously maintained their tribal culture and identity (generally necessary for recognition as a tribe), nor do they establish that any persons or any organizations in those states have been formally recognized by the Halaw-Saponi, Occanechee Band of the Saponi Nation, or Sappony tribes as Sappony. - Donald Albury 13:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Picture

Hey, guys, I found this old picture we might find interesting. It's old enough to be open domain, I just can't figure out how to add it, so I'll just post the link to the site. I saw the Eastern Siouan style headdress. The man is stated as Mohawk, but I think he might be Saponi. Look for the pic of the man kneeling.

http://iroquoisbeadwork.blogspot.com/2011/03/historic-images-of-kahnawake-3.html?m=1 Bobbotronica (talk) 04:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: I know for a fact the individual is Saponi, now & know how he got there. After the Revolutionary War, the Saponi living among the Iroquois split. Nikonha brought them up to Hale, but didn't know where they went. Some official named Kirkland found the rest living at Fort Niagara & when they moved, it's believed they went with the Mohawk. The image is the one with the man in the headdress, by himself, who is kneeling & staring off to one side. Those are likely our traditional clothes. The man was either a chief, or he was descended from one of the last chiefs & that is why he had those clothes. Just scroll down the page until you find it. I found the pic because someone used it as the cover of a book about the Iroquois & I did a reverse image search. Bobbotronica (talk) 12:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

The etymology section has had several issues. The main section of the article states correctly the Saponi spoke the Tutelo-Saponi language. The Tutelo wikipedia entry references the fact that the Tutelo-Saponi are recognized as a single Siouan group since the 17th century. Yet the etymology section of the 'Sappony' article references definitions of the name 'Saponi' that ignore what is stated in the Tutelo wikipedia entry. The objectivity of the sources and citations in the etymology section versus other sections in the same article show inconsistencies. comment added by Federer20201 (talk) 01:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Donald Albury please identify the trojan-infected website(s) linked from the edit of the Etymology section of the Sappony article. The previous revision has a citation that is original research and is not notable - http://www.native-languages.org/iaq18.htm. It includes another citation without including the reply which follows it http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/2013-June/009003.html. The first citation in the section fails verification.

Multiple existing citations reference Robert Rankin. Yet Robert Rankin's research directly contradicts the statement that Saponi means 'Red Earth People'. One of the citations I added http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130617/f5210805/attachment.pdf specifically addresses this. This citation also provides context to the citations from the University of Colorado's Comparative Siouan Dictionary. This dictionary includes Lakota. The Lakota-English dictionary is used in another citation in this section. What element of this is "original research" as you claim? Certainly it is not the reference to the words for red earth in Siouan languages. That is Robert Rankin's research. — Preceding Federer20201 (talk) 05:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 26 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Donald Albury 20:54, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

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Sappony → Saponi – Saponi is most common spelling used for the historical tribe in literature. Today several state-recognized tribes claim descent from the Saponi, the majority use the "Saponi" spelling, while one tribe uses "Sappony" as its official name. The name "Sappony" should be used for an article for that state-recognized tribe, as opposed to the entire ethnic group. Yuchitown (talk) 16:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Support And thanks to Yuchitown for cleaning up the article. - Donald Albury 19:01, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry that I made a hash of accidently moving the talk page but fortunately was able to move it back. Yuchitown (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

• Comment. I don't have the authority to make this move; an administrator has to do so. Not sure how to catch the attention of anyone with the authority. Yuchitown (talk) 16:17, 3 February 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move cleanup

I think I have caught all of the double redirects. A second look wouldn't hurt. - Donald Albury 21:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Fixed three malingerers. Thanks for doing this! Yuchitown (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Stop Saponi erasure

@Donald Albury You are being racist by continuing to put Saponi people in the past tense when we are still here ( lé: maini:naǫse) from a language you falsely claim to be extinct. Prior, the Wikipedia page has always stated that Saponi people are a current tribe but within the past few days it has changed which is highly suspicious. Saponi/Yesa people are still alive. They are not in the past tense. 3 Saponi tribes have state recognition. Saponi people are related to the Monacan who became federally recognized in 2018. Saponi bands of Ohio & in Missouri have had resolutions passed by both state senates recognizing them as Indigenous Nations. This is pure racism to continue to edit the Wikipedia page to say that Saponi people are in the past tense. Here are some links to credible sources below:

An Elder from the Saponi Nation of Ohio was interviewed by the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian (recent pottery/artwork by Saponi artists are also stored by the Msueum in exhibits) American Indian Culture and Research Journal: Vol 26, No. 3 2002

Native American Almanac (Pg 112) mentions Saponi Tribe

In 2020, the population of Tutelo-Saponi people is listed as 22,000 people 2018 Indian Country Today Newspaper Article about Haliwa-Saponi Chief

John Hayes Blackfeather Jeffries Collection on Occaneechi Band of the Saponi Nation

Congressman Don Davis Introduces Bill Calling For the Federal Recognition of the Haliwa Saponi Tribe of North Carolina

Bill Recognizing the Occaneechi Band of the Saponi Nation in North Carolina as an American Indian tribe with a recognized tribal governing body and as eligible for special Federal programs and services for Native Americans

2000’s DNA Study done on Saponi People 96.225.48.16 (talk) 16:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Concur. Despite a long history of Category:Native American genocide, Native groups within the boundaries of the US still exist as distinct peoples, whether recognized by the US and its political subdivisions or not, and whether or not they are themselves divided into (or unified with) separate political entities or communities, as many Tribes are. Present tense is appropriate, as is used in (for instance) Cherokee, Shawnee, Navajo, etc. There's precedent in Wikipedia and it's just common sense. Pyrocatch (talk) 17:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Toxic Native made the change from present tense to past tense, diff, so maybe they can speak to their rationale. It was present tense before, and no new citations were provided, so it should likely remain present tense. Just to be accurate, genocide involves killing members, removing children, or preventing births of a group. Paper genocide is a term for Virginia's lack of "Indian" as an option on census forms. Erasure is leaving Native peoples out of discourse. The validity of North Carolina state recognition is probably outside the scope of Wikipedia's purview. Questioning the continuity of a historical tribe and its connection to contemporary organizations is valid, but this platform is not a place original research. A little more scholarly interest in state-recognized and unrecognized tribes is emerging. (Addendum: Everyone here agrees that, of course, the Saponi endured genocide. However, someone editing a Wikipedia article does not constitute genocide.) Yuchitown (talk) 17:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

As a person whose family was put on Dr. Walter Plecker’s list, and has been inter generationally affected by racial reclassification and paper genocide, it is extremely irresponsible to undermine the true severity of the situation especially when today there are still people like @toxic native who are rewriting history to fit within a white supremacist narrative to erase entire nations from existence. Today, you are allowed to choose your race but back then you were put down whatever the census taker put you down as. Even certain Saponi people who self-identified as Native had that crossed out and changed to Black. I have multiple census records from my Native ancestors and on each year they had a different race on the census. Just to be accurate, Dr. Walter Plecker was also responsible for sterilizing plenty of Native American as well as other people of color in the state of Virginia and the history of Fort. Christanna is very well known. They forced Saponi and other groups of Indigenous people onto a reservation and began the process of attempting cultural genocide by forcing Christianity down their throats. Saponi tribes are still in Virginia to this day who still have been affected. This is why plenty of Virginian native tribes got recognized later because of those reasons. We went decades being told we do not exist because of census records that changed our race from Native to Black. With one stroke of a pen, entire nations have been erased. That is a paper genocide that other Indigenous nations have gone through as well. We as Saponi, have also went through a physical genocide as well. Plenty of Saponi people have been murdered, entire bloodlines wiped out so let’s not minimize this at all. I’m going to link some book suggestions along with other reliable sources from Saponi descendants telling our family history. I suggest you read that will give you more information about the true affects of paper genocide.

Books:

[1]https://iupress.org/9780253010438/that-the-blood-stay-pure/

[2]https://www.amazon.com/Afro-Indigenous-History-United-States/dp/0807011681

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Indians-William-Loren-Katz/dp/1442446374

https://www.amazon.com/IndiVisible-African-Native-American-Lives-Americas/dp/1588342719

https://occoneechee.org/pages/the-occoneechee-saponi-totaro-indian-tribe-of-virginia-and-the-saponi-reservation-in-brunswick-county-va

[3]https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/meet-survivors-taino-tribe-paper-genocide#:~:text=Paper%20genocide%20means%20that%20a,here%20reimagines%20that%20census%20data.)

[4]https://lssse.indiana.edu/blog/guest-post-native-american-exclusion-as-a-form-of-paper-genocide/

[5]https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/black-history-includes-native-american-and-african-american-generational-and-historical-trauma 96.225.48.16 (talk) 18:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Let's assess your sources to see if Wikipedia policies would consider them reliable. It isn't what you know is truth that matters or what I know is truth that matters. But before I do, we should almost never use past tense in regards to a culture or peoples existence. The first source is self-published and should not be used to verify the existence of anything or confirm/deny contentious and controversial topics. Same for source five and eight. Source seven is a blog post so it can not be used as a reliable source. Sources two thru four are considered generally unreliable but delving into it further they bring forward three legitimately published books however I attempted to find reviews for these books and could not. I mostly found regurgitated promotions for the books. The final source, a National Geographic article appears to be the only source with a thorough editing process and may just pass as reliable. --ARoseWolf 12:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Given the question is whether past or present tense should be used, and you first note that we should [almost] never use past tense in regards to a culture or peoples existence, it appears that everyone commenting so far is presenting consensus for using present tense. I'm unclear what need there is for an analysis or what conclusions are being drawn, otherwise. Pyrocatch (talk) 21:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm just one voice. I have not decided which side I would support only that I have no evidence which supports using past tense and I am not inclined to search for it given my personal position. yet I would encourage additional editor participation in the discussion before I would declare consensus. The IP editor above seemed to suggest a concerted effort to erase the Saponi people, their culture and people from history. I was pointing out that, if that is the case, Wikipedia can only cite reliable sources to state that and beyond that the section above is OR and unsupported. This talk page is not a forum and not to be used as a soap box for anyone's social justice agenda. There are places for that and the cause may very well be justified. Not here. --ARoseWolf 21:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

If you believe that cultures/people shouldn’t be erased or spoken about in the past tense you would not consider the oral history of Saponi people (which has literally been corroborated with plenty of reputable sources) as unreliable. You contradict yourself. This isn’t an agenda, this is simply reality and fact. Saponi people are still here and continue to exist which is a fact. If it wasn’t the case, I wouldn’t exist nor along with thousands of others. To talk about Saponi people in the past tense is not only incorrect but going against facts. This isn’t a soap box either, it is valid to question the reliability of Wikipedia when misinformation about Indigenous people runs rampant on this site and more times than not doesn’t get checked. This misinformation causes actual documented harm to Indigenous communities, which is proven fact by statistical data. You can search up the statistics yourself. Also, this is why plenty of accredited educational institutions refuse to actually cite Wikipedia as a reliable source for this exact reason. If you are going to be an admin for Native American pages on Wikipedia, it is your responsibility to do your due diligence to make sure the information you are releasing are accurate. It’s that simple. Cultural knowledge and lived experiences from the group of people you are speaking on are way more reliable than outsiders who do not come from that nation nor have any information outside of a google search about those people. As a person who comes from the people you are speaking on, I have every right to correct false statements erasing us from history. And I will continue to, this is definitely the right forum considering this page is speaking about my nation, my people. 174.206.225.206 (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Let me address some things to help you understand Wikipedia that I had to learn when I became an editor here. But first, let me give some background on myself. I am American Indian. I have helped organize protests, written letters to all sorts of government officials advocating for everything from sovereign nation recognition to federal status/state status and the honoring of treaties for many different nations. I have stood shoulder to shoulder demanding reparations for land stolen, genocides committed. I understand your fight. I support your fight. But when I come here I am an editor and I edit dispassionately and regardless of my personal beliefs.

I am not an admin on Wikipedia. We do not have admins only for specific articles or topics though some admins do have preferences like we all do. My responsibility is to ensure content is reliably sourced and follows Wikipedia policy. That is the responsibility of all editors. Cultural knowledge and lived experiences are only reliable if they are documented in reliable sources. While I respect your heritage, your knowledge and your existence (I would even fight for it) it is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. My cultural knowledge is not a reliable source.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source (See Wikipedia:General disclaimer). We don't advertise it as a reliable source (Reliability of Wikipedia). In fact we clearly say "Wikipedia articles...are not reliable sources...". See WP:WPNOTRS for full context. What Google or any other search engine does is not left up to Wikipedia. They control their own algorithms.

I have agreed with you that I believe we should not refer to any culture, people or nation in past tense whether someone thinks they exist still or not. So, for me, even if a source could be presented that said the Saponi people are extinct it wouldn't change my opinion that we should refer to them in present tense. The fact that a source doesn't exist means we can not say they exist but we can not say they don't. That's why a default present tense should be used. So that's a moot point to rehash with me. Others have disagreed and I am only one voice in this vast community and my voice alone does not carry more weight than any other.

This talk page is only for discussion on how to improve this article. It does not belong to the Saponi people, or any organization or people claiming to be Saponi, any more than a biography on a living person belongs to that person. We do not need walls of text on genocide, colonial affects or cultural erasure unless it is content that can be added to the article, properly sourced. The whole first paragraph above the sources you provided are expressly what Wikipedia forbids on article talk pages. You are telling us facts as you see them. We want facts as reliable independent third parties see them. --ARoseWolf 13:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The facts are that the Saponi and related groups are not extinct and are recognized by gov'ts that also affirm that they are not extinct -the NCAI even affirmed the rights of state-recognized tribes as members this year as well after a fierce debate -and yet someone decided random wiki editors who are supposed to be unbiased and neutral still needed to be convinced otherwise. That's a problem. Mwatuangi (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Classifying the question of whether to use the present or past tense for an apparently extant ethnic and political group as a "social justice agenda" seems like a stretch at best. The pushback against referring to Native peoples in the past tense is very, very well documented (that last link is perhaps particularly relevant), for many reasons, and it shouldn't be a surprise that, for the reason given in those and many other articles, Native people object strongly to being referred to as if extinct.

The requirement for reliable citations cuts both ways. If an editor came along and changed Latino (demonym) or US Citizens to past tense, would we require reliable citations that explicitly state "Latino people still exist" or "US Citizens still exist" before reverting? Or would we require them to support their edit with reliable citations that those groups no longer exist? Pyrocatch (talk) 01:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't just a question though was it? Because had it been just a question and that was all it was then you are correct and my statement would not been necessary. --ARoseWolf 14:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)