Talk:Rocca di Manerba del Garda

Educational Project Page

This page is part of an Educational Project by students of LIUC, Italy, with a course page at: https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/LIUC_-_Universit%C3%A0_Cattaneo/Digital_Technology_(Autumn_2020)/home The users of the group are new to the Wikipedia platform and are learning to edit following Wikipedia rules. They are open to any advice on improvements of the page in conformity to Wikipeida requirements and guidelines, and any help useful for the enhancement of the page will be gladly accepted. The student team User names are:.

• LIUCLaura4
• TheGodfatherVitoCorleone
• Walk.culture
• Milan20MA
• Luchino 1999
• Unklemerk

Limelightangel (talk) 15:58, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Topic relationship

There is already a poor page on Manerba del Garda. If you retain your draft topic, you will need to clearly differentiate it from the existing page, and include enough specific topic content to avoid it being labelled as a Stub and/or to be included as a section on the existing page. This might also involve editing or even moving content on the existing page, to clearly establish two different topic pages. Limelightangel (talk) 15:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

It is a different topic, Manerba del Garda is a city while this one is a fortress in Manerba del Garda, we are not going to talk about the town, but should we also add content on the specific article of Manerba del Garda, in order to link it in a proper way? Milan20MA (talk) 18:19, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I've added in Manerba del Garda article, more specifically in the paragraph: "see also" the reference to our article: Rocca di Manerba del Garda, highlighting the fact that we are still working on it, but that it will be realesed soon. I will check the talk in case it will be removed. Correct me if I've done anything wrong. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2020

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: Remove the See Also reference on Manerba del Garda. Add an in text blue/red citation to the text of the article linking to your draft. Add to the Talk page of Manerba del Garda that there is an active draft for the related page at Draft:Rocca di Manerba del Garda. Note in Talk pages you can 'ping' responses to other users, as I have done here. Also, indent threaded discussions, as I have here, using ':' Limelightangel (talk) 10:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

References, Sources and External Links

The content needs citations for all the content, so that it is clear where the information comes from. All editors need to add these at the same time as the relevant content. Use the Cite drop-down in the edit page, select the correct media format for your source, and complete as much of the template as possible. It was covered in the online training, and there is plenty of online help. Learn the differences between blue in text citations to other wiki pages, numbered references, and External Links. You have the same source for an External link and reference 1. This is not correct. Use the source for the numbered reference (as you have), but don't use the same source as an External Link. Nor is this example a relevant external link. These are usually external websites that provide context to the page, without duplicating your numbered references. They appear above the References section. Your numbered reference does not appear where it should - under References. Nor is just a URL an acceptable format for this type of reference: use the Cite template for websites, and include the page title, website name, author, publisher, data and data accessed. Look at some existing pages, and read the help resources on external links (Google 'Wikipedia external links'): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links.

Some other essential starting points are:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Referencing_for_beginners
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/1

Limelightangel (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: I was wondering from which site you have taken that information: "The site is archaeologically significant, with human occupation evidenced from the Neolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age and Roman periods. It was also the site of a medieval castle." Milan20MA (talk) 18:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: Good question, and you could probably add some e.g. from Scholar results. It is a summary introductory point that needs to be evidenced in the later text. Limelightangel (talk) 14:46, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: Can I ask you if you can add the references to the information you have added. Milan20MA (talk) 12:52, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: Of Course here is the reference : https://www.montagnando.it/ut/db/rocca-di-manerba/rocca-di-manerba.php . I will added myself in the refernces. User:TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 10:46, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Potential sources for Authoritative Factual content

The archaeological significance of this site needs a good summary/synthesis. Google Scholar has a range of academic articles related to this (there are 52, and not all relevant). You're not going to use them all, read them all, or copy from them. Use these and other good sources to look for facts that you can summarize and source - don't repeat/cut and paste detail from these or any sources. An example: look at how I used one of them to create a single referenced factual sentence under a new, and needed, page section on Archaeological Features - it's just an example. I didn't read the entire article source on Chalcothic cemeteries, just the article abstract/summary from Scholar. Look how I did the reference (Cite>journals>fill in template info). You may be using some good sources in Italian, so look at the rules here for referencing foreign language materials e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources/Archive_1#Non-English_references_in_the_English_Wikipedia_(copy_from_Village_Pump). Limelightangel (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Potential Sources

websites: https://www.riservaroccamanerba.com/it/ books: https://www.unilibro.it/libro/lunardi-costanza/pietra-acqua-rocca-manerba-paesaggi-colori-garda-ediz-italiana-inglese/9788873859796?idaff=googlebase-03 From Google scholar: research that talks about the structure of the Rocca, it might be another subtitle. http://www.bibar.unisi.it/sites/www.bibar.unisi.it/files/testi/testisap/19/19-01.pdf Milan20MA (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Some sources: http://www.cai-desenzano.it/joomla/PDF/2013/Attendamento/La%20Rocca%20di%20Manerba%20del%20Garda%20tra%20Storia%20e%20Natura.pdf http://www.parchibresciani.it/parco-archeo-manerba/ https://www.riservaroccamanerba.com/en/ https://search.proquest.com/openview/d767d924811480bfc4134c4b750e649e/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=36387 http://www.bibar.unisi.it/sites/www.bibar.unisi.it/files/testi/testisap/19/19-01.pdf https://search.proquest.com/docview/1298016404?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true https://www.lonelyplanet.com/italy/the-italian-lakes/valtenesi/attractions/parco-archeologico-rocca-di-manerba/a/poi-sig/1395803/1335818 LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

A source related to the trails : https://www.lecosmopolite.it/rocca-di-manerba-trekking-lago-di-garda/#Come_arrivare_alla_Rocca_di_Manerba TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 14:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

General Discussions

Introduction

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk:I ve added this paragraph,in case we should change it or discuss about it. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Location

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I ve added this paragraph, in case you got more info about it. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I've seen you have added some infos, I'm going to check them. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

History

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: do u believe that we should finally split the history in the pre and recent one, or just leave it like this?TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I think we should split the history as you suggested. LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I agree, it gives a structure to the history and then other users might add some other information. Milan20MA (talk) 15:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

.@LIUCLaura4: yes I agree on that too TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Civic Archaeological Valtenesi Museum

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: Do u believe we should add a link out to the specific website of the museum n this paragraph? TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: If you found it, it would be a good idea. Are you sure there is one? because I couldn't find itLIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: this are the website that I found related to the civic museum at the moment: http://museiarcheologici.net/index.php/it/musei/17-museo-civico-archeologico-della-valtenesi  ; https://www.visitasondrio.it/site/home/vivi/mvsa.html

Perfect, we could add the first one. LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:47, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Archaeological Features

I am adding the church of Saint Mary in the archeological features. Let me know what you think. Walk.culture (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture: It is completely fine. Milan20MA (talk) 15:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: Guys do you believe we should redimension and reposition the images related to this paragraph? TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I've changed their position, please tell me if it's fineLIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: Yes, it is. Thank you. Walk.culture (talk) 14 November 2020 10:49 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone and TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk:I've added a short paragraph that tells when the archealogical excavations started. What do you think? LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: Perfect, we should keep it. Walk.culture (talk) 12:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: What do you think about creating a new section dedicated to the churches instead of keeping them in the archeological features? I think the structure would be better organized. Walk.culture (talk) 11:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I've kept them under archaeological features but I've created a subsection. What do you think?LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: It's fine. Walk.culture (talk) 11:51, 24 November 2020

Churces

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I ve added this paragraph, in case we need to discuss some topics. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Flora and Fauna

TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) here the https for flora and fauna images: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Carpione_del_Garda.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/PikiWiki_Israel_3421_Geography_of_Israel.jpg TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 11:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: sign your talk posts using the tilde symbol x4 (~) Limelightangel (talk) 14:30, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: Guys should we consider deleting a part of the flora and fauna, as suggested? We have also to add some information history,@Luchino 1999: are you finding some information? Milan20MA (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA:I believe should be a good idea to highlight or select at least the best elements that represent flora and fauna near the Rocca di Manerba del Garda, creating with them a little paragraph. If everybody is fine with that, I should do it, because I was the one searching for this info? TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 18:16, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I agree with you, for me, it's totally fine. If you want there is a site, that we have already used for the archeological features, in which you can find the main ones. In addition, I was reading the last to parts about the curiosity, we should make some corrections, as sometimes the phrases are not completely clear. Milan20MA (talk) 08:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: http://www.cai-desenzano.it/joomla/PDF/2013/Attendamento/La%20Rocca%20di%20Manerba%20del%20Garda%20tra%20Storia%20e%20Natura.pdf this is the site in which you can find all the information about flora and fauna. Milan20MA (talk) 09:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA:Thank you, I will start today analyzing the website and adding some info, in any case, if there some mistakes or suggestions u team want to give me, feel free to do it here. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 11:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I've added to images, that shows either the grass and the oak present near the Rocca, could u tell me which one do u prefer the most? thanks TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 14:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I think we can keep both Milan20MA (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: Indent your threaded replies and put Talk threads in relevant sections so they are easy to find and review by topic. Limelightangel (talk) 14:27, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Visitor's centre

I've added the Visitor's centre, let me know if you think that we should keep it. Thanks Walk.culture (talk) 15:14, 10 November 2020

@Walk.culture: I think we can keep it, it is a good idea.Milan20MA (talk) 13:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Images

There are two images of the cross in the gallery do u think we should keep both of them or not? TheGodfatherVitoCorleone, 4 November 2020

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I will take a look and then I will let you know if I find it.Milan20MA (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: One of the cross images has a summit ruin. Why not move that one from the gallery to the relevant text for this? You can't use email info from a guide, but you can ask them for published secondary sources.Limelightangel (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: Sure we will either remove or switch the position of the cross image, still, the municipality of Manerba didn't answer me yet, on the copyright info for the publication of the trail image. Unfortunately, I've seen that at the moment their websites are having some technical update, so I don't know if they will have also technicals problems with the email. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 08:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I've discovered the way of dimensioning and changing the format of the image, is in the visual editing, once clicked on the image it shows u advaced on the top, there you can add a border or change format or either change dimension. I hope u will find it helpful, in case you find the way also of positioning two images one next to each other just answer me here, thanks. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:37, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: Thank you for telling it!LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:08, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:I saw it, thank you very much. Should we also add a caption under the picture? I will try to put one next to the other. Milan20MA (talk) 13:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: I think it will be better if we add a caption under the pictures.LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:08, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I am made some changes with the images in the section flora, let me know if it is fine. If you have ideas for captions let me know. However, we have to deal with the copyright of those images or they will cancel them. Milan20MA (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: thanks for your edit on flora images, sure we still need to adjust copyright issues. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: As regards the picture of the pile dwelling in San Sivino (the one that shows the ruins), I think we should change the caption. I thought we could write "The remains of the pile dwelling in San Sivino". Please tell me what you think.LIUCLaura4 (talk) 07:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: Yes maybe the caption clarify better the images related to the section itself. I believe you can change the caption of the dwelling pile, as long as it explains clearly the content of the image in a short and summarized way,TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:Thank you for your advice!!LIUCLaura4 (talk) 10:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Additional Images

@Walk.culture:@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I have found some additional images.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:La_Rocca_di_Manerba_del_Garda_con_l%27isola_dei_Conigli.jpg this is the link. Milan20MA (talk) 08:40, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

I believe it's a good picture, thanks for the suggestionLIUCLaura4 (talk) 09:46, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA:@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: Guys do you think we can add one of these pics https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chiesa_Santissima_Trinità_affresco_Trinità_Manerba_del_Garda.jpg https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chiesa_di_Santa_Maria_Assunta_Pala_Trinità_e_Sant_Angela_Merici_Augusto_Ugolini_Manerba_del_Garda.jpg related to the Church of the Holy trinity (archeological feature)? Walk.culture (talk) 18:28, 21 nov 2020 (UTC)

Although those are good pictures, there is the problem of copyright. The author wants to receive a message before others use it. I believe we should find other pictures of the church. LIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Mountainbike and Running Trails

@Limelightangel: Do you think would be a good idea to write to the email of Rocca di Manerba del garda asking for more info about it? it should be a good option to obtain further info. Moreover, if anyone can find out the duration of the trials and their precise length would be amazing.TheGodfatherVitoCorleone, 4 November 2020

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I'll try to find something about it. Walk.culture (talk) 19:05, 12 November (UTC)

@Walk.culture: I've written an email to the website of the Rocca, asking for some more sources and for the rights for the image of the trials, but anyway if you find some info about it, feel free to insert them in the table or even add changes. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 13:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:These could be possible resources. Walk.culture (talk) https://www.montagnadiviaggi.it/2020/01/rocca-di-manerba-sentieri.html https://www.tuttogarda.it/piste_garda_s11.htm

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: @Walk.culture: I believe that https://www.montagnadiviaggi.it/2020/01/rocca-di-manerba-sentieri.html isn't a source we can use since it's a blog, but maybe we can write the information written in tuttogarda.itLIUCLaura4 (talk) 15:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: I believe you are right TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:50, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

https://www.riservaroccamanerba.com/it/riserva-naturale/i-sentieri-della-riserva 16:16, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: @Walk.culture: I believe so too,I haev seen the website and seems to be not that relaible, thanks anyway, in case we have added it in the resourches let's remove it. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: The website of the rocca di manerba has answered me via email, saying that the image related to the trails has copyright and we can't use it, I propose to remove it, what do you think ?TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 11:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: You are right, we should remove it. Should we replace it with another picture?LIUCLaura4 (talk) 13:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@LIUCLaura4: Yes, I think it would be better.@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: Also, I've added something about the trails, some information is from the blog so I will revise it. Walk.culture (talk) 15:54, 15 November 2020

@LIUCLaura4: I believe we should find anouther picture that is reliable to those trials, let me know if you find one without copyright, if not i'm going to draw one myself. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Alright, I'll what I can find and I'll let you knowLIUCLaura4 (talk) 09:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture: I have seen your changes I will check out the informations and revise them too, thanks TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: Guys I deleted the second part of the text since it was not reliable, I'll try to find something to add. If you find anything please add it, thanks. Also, what do you think about this website? Do you think we could use it? https://www.komoot.com/discover/Rocca_di_Manerba_del_Garda/@45.5561700%2C10.5687300?sport=jogging Walk.culture (talk) 16:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I believe we can't use itLIUCLaura4 (talk) 10:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Curiosities

I have made some corrections in the second subsection of the curiosities. Let me know if it is more readable.Milan20MA (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: Yes, thanks, I ve seen the changes , i believe that section is properly written TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 08:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheGodfatherVitoCorleone: I have finished making corrections in the curiosities section, let me know if it is readable. Milan20MA (talk) 15:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: I think we could put the name's origin first and then the legend, let me know what you think. Walk.culture (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Walk.culture:I agree, thank you for the suggestion.Milan20MA (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: I believe the paragraph now has a more linear and clear structure, with a more appropriate style TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Categories

@Walk.culture:@Milan20MA:@LIUCLaura4:@Luchino 1999:@Unklemerk: I've added some cathegories to the page, check out if you can find out some more, thanks TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk page style, conventions, and help

Note the conventions, purpose, and 'rules' for using Talk pages. Don't be discouraged from using it regularly, but note the following:

• you sign all your posts (see those on this page and on other Talk pages)
• create meaningful section headings for the Talk page; don't just list a book/website URL
• the page is for discussion on article content; don't just list a book/website URL
• look at some existing talk pages to see how they work
• read and use the Talk page help resources, including:

 *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Talk_pages
 *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines
 *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Introduction_to_talk_pages/1

As an example: the two URLs below need a section heading, e.g. Potential Sources, some text context (what are they there for?), and the automatic signature of the person who has posted (it's easy: 4 tildes (~) symbols creates my signature and time stamp). You also need to sign replies and indent your replies in the same section. Limelightangel (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Issues to address 31/10/20

• as an Educational Project, equal and regular contributions are required by all team members, both to the draft and the Talk page. User:Walk.culture and User:Unklemerk have made no Talk page contributions and few or no contributions to the draft
• Use of Talk Page Sections: note the advice in the earlier post. Use existing sections to continue threads, and only create new sections if they do not already exist. For example, the section on Potential Sources needs moving to the existing section on Authoritative Factual Sources, as it is the same topic. Similarly, the section on Team Talk is also about sources, so should be moved to the existing section i.e. all the talk content/discussion on general sources is in one place.

@Limelightangel: The Talk page has been reorganized Milan20MA (talk) 15:07, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: Good, but it is still confusing. Look at all the diverse comments in subsections under Authoritative Sources.Limelightangel (talk) 14:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: We have restructured the team talk, it looks clearer to me. We are adding some subsection in order to make it not confusing and more understandable.Milan20MA (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• Images:

-provide better captions to images, not just 'view to the north'. The images reside at another location, and the caption needs to clearly identify/describe the image content. -there needs to be images located in the relevant text, and aligned with the text and section. -there needs to be some images of the archaeological features, as this should be a main focus for notability and content. - needs a detailed map of the location and sites

@Limelightangel: what do you mean with a more detailed map of the location and sites, we have added the location in the infobox. Milan20MA (talk) 15:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milan20MA: I mean a more detailed map of the site and features Limelightangel (talk) 14:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• References: see earlier post

- the sections on flora, fauna, origins, sacredness all have no references. The History section has one reference. There needs to be far more. - note the help on referencing. The current reference no. 6 is just a URL and in an unacceptable format - use the Cite web template correctly. See [[1]]. ref. 8 needs a date - you need to balance the Italian language references with some acceptable English references. The only English reference was by User:Limelightangel. - learn how to use Ref Group in the cite templates to reference the same source multiple times from the text, but list it only once in the references. There are two references for an identical source (currently references 3 and 10). See Help:Footnotes#WP:NAMEDREFS - use acceptable sources, and avoid sources like myBrixen, Hiwio, etc. See Wikipedia:Acceptable_sources

@Limelightangel: We have corrected all the references following your suggestions.Milan20MA (talk) 21:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

• Content:

- you need far more content on the archaeological and historical parts. These sections need defining and creating, probably chronologically. - the sections on History and Sacredness need re-writing/editing (and referencing) to make better sense. - the section on the museum needs to come after Archaeological Features. - the section on the chalcothic cemetry needs to be in the list below, and in the same format.

@Luchino 1999: I have added some subtitles as suggested by User:Limelightangel. We have to find some additional information regarding history and geology.Milan20MA (talk) 22:33, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

• Style and Writing:

-avoid subjective and journalistic style e.g. 'brilliant sacredness', 'brilliant scenography', 'these days we see', 'tourists admire', etc.

@Limelightangel: We have removed such journalistic style and replaced it with a more neutral one. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Linking: see [[2]]

- remove duplicate links to the same existing pages e.g. Iron Age, Lake Garda, etc. You link out once, where you first use the linked text. - understand the use, purpose and conventions with See Also links. remove irrelevant links here e.g. to Lombardy (Wine). See [[3]] - fix the issues with external links. Neither are good sources (Wikiloc, Tutto Garda) nor relevant external links for this topic; neither are displaying properly on the page. Fix them. See [[4]] - you are missing obvious relevant internal links e.g. to World heritage site, etc. Limelightangel (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: We have made some changes regarding this suggestion and when the article will be finished we will make a double check of every link. Milan20MA (talk) 21:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Issues to address 09/11/20

• as an Educational Project, equal and regular contributions are required by all team members, both to the draft and the Talk page.
• Use of Talk Page Sections: Note the advice in the earlier post. Use existing sections to continue threads, and create new sections if they do not already exist. Edit the Talk page structure to give clarity.

@Limelightangel: We have added sections for the talk page and tried to create the most linear structure TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• References: See earlier posts.

- learn how to use Ref Group in the cite templates to reference the same source multiple times from the text, but list it only once in the references. There are two references for an identical source (references 3 and 4). See Help:Footnotes#WP:NAMEDREFS - use a consistent format for references. References 1, 12, and 19 have UPPER CASE, which is not used in the other references - fix these.

@Limelightangel: We have corrected all the references following your suggestions, and used the same consistent formatMilan20MA (talk) 21:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

• Images: You are going to have significant issues with images, most of which will, as it stands, be removed. You all need to use the help resources on images, and as a team deal with the challenges. See Wikipedia: Images and related help resources. Some examples -

- you may lose the image of the Judas tree, which is taken in Israel, not at the Rocca. The caption is incorrect, and the image irrelevant for the page topic. - if you take a picture of someone else's work, you do not automatically hold copyright for it, as in the case of the medieval castle and the image of map running trails. These have been licensed by you as your own work when this is clearly not the case. Do you own the copyright here? The captions also need to be better, but the bigger issue is understanding acceptable image use. The pubscent [sic] oak and feather grass images (and some in the gallery) are explicitly not public domain and have usage conditions attached. The lake carp image is irrelevant to the page topic. You need to understand and deal with the requirements here for images and understand public domain licenses. - try to find an acceptable detailed map of the location and sites

@Limelightangel: we have deleted the images of the judas tree and the one of the carp, we are now working on the copyright and domain licences. we have now found a map, that highlight specifically the geographical area of the Rocca and we put it at the beginning of the really first paragraph. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Linking: see [[5]]

- fix the issues with external links. Neither are good 'See also' sources (Wikiloc, Tutto Garda), nor relevant external links for this topic; neither are displaying properly on the page. Fix them. See [[6]] - understand the use, purpose and conventions with See Also links. You don't duplicate links here that already occur in the text. See [[7]] - you are still missing obvious relevant internal links, particularly to relevant archaeological pages, pile/stilt dwellings, etc. - you still have multiple links out to the same pages. - you link out the first time you use the linked text. See World Heritage Site link.

@Limelightangel: we have adjusted the external links, considering just the relevant ones,and we have added more internal links TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Style and Writing:

- the sub-sections under Curiosities still need substantial re-writing and should be addressed as a team. Avoid 'seems to', 'then','generally', 'finally', etc.

@Limelightangel: We have re-write all the curiosities and now it is clearer. Milan20MA (talk) 09:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Content: Flora is now better. The large section on fauna needs similar re-writing and reduction, to remove generic and irrelevant content not specific to this topic. This is not the page where you describe all these creatures. How high is the summit? area in square klms?
• Structure: does geology come before mountain biking [sic] etc? History is different to prehistory, and is perhaps a second section, briefly describing prehistoric settlement, without duplicating the detailed section on archaeological sites. This section also needs chronological structure, rather than getting to the renaissance then returning to 4000 BC. The section on archaeological features needs structuring chronologically, incorporating the chalcolithic site, and duplication removed from other sections.

Limelightangel (talk) 15:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: we have been edited fauna as suggested and shifted geology under mountainbike. TheGodfatherVitoCorleone (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

As requested, a quick once-over

As requested on my talk page by Milan20MA, I am just having a quick look at this article to see if I can offer any suggestions. Although I cannot guarantee approval, it is looking pretty good so far, and at this point I am only going to offer a few minor copyediting suggestions.

GENERAL:

• If you add the template{{use dmy dates}} at the top (above Infobox), it should ensure that all of the dates in citations are in a uniform style.
• See MOS:REFSPACE - very minor, but ensure no spaces before or between your citations.
• See MOS:CENTURY (don't use Roman numerals). Also, MOS:DASH (there are various ways of creating a dash rather than using the hyphen on your keyboard).
• MOS:HEAD - for subheadings, use sentence case (initial capital letter only).
• I haven't checked every word, but noticed you used the US spelling of "center" and "meter"- so you might just want to check and decide whether you want it in US or British spelling and just ensure that it's consistent within the article.
• I see that you have a lot of Italian citations, so it's probably worth ensuring that each citation has the "language=it" (if in both, as you have one already, "language=en, it"). And the more English citations you can find, always nicer in the English WP, but I don't know how many are available.
• Ideally, when the article body is complete, see if you can review and ensure WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY - but if not, it won't stop you getting approval!

• Note WP:DAB links at the words "bronzes", "shelter", and "oratory", San Bernardo, San Sebastiano, Romanesque, Marbled White. (A tip: if you turn on the option under your Preferences, Gadgets, "Display links to disambiguation pages in orange", it shows you in preview if you've linked to DAB pages - very handy!)

• LEAD:
  • If the bit in parenthesis after the name is the English translation of the article title, I think there's a special way to do this as well, but I don't know it offhand and can't find the precise rule now... but you could just write The Rocca di Manerba del Garda (meaning "fortress of Manerba del Garda") is a...
  • A question/comment here (nothing that you've done wrong) - I see that WP has a redirect from Rocca Vecchia to Roca (archaeological site) - but this is in southern Italy. If you remind me when the article is promoted, I will add a template from that article back to yours which will guide users there.
  • Another question/comment: is the San Giorgio in your article any of those listed on the San Giorgio page? (If not, we can add a link from that page to your article afterwards.)
  • It's probably worth linking the word "hermitage" to this hermitage, if it is one of them.
• Flora and fauna
  • Use italics where the target page uses them for a species name, or use the common name - either is acceptable. However, where common name is used, lowercase unless it's derived from a name (such as Judas tree).
• Last few sections
  • Note MOS:ORDER, and I think that list of books belongs in a "Further reading" section below the citations and above the External links.

One last thing - I'd probably put the Geology section after History, as it seems more logical there. I think that's about it for now! As you can see, I've only mentioned a few copyediting tips; I haven't read and absorbed the content, but it all looks pretty good and well cited. I should think it would get through, based on my own experience of creating new articles (but I am not a new page reviewer, so can't officially pass it for you, sorry). Good luck! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 10:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Laterthanyouthink: Thank you for the suggestion and for your time, we really appreciate it. Milan20MA (talk) 14:28, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Laterthanyouthink: Many thanks for your kind and detailed help to my students here. Part of this educational project is about them learning about online collaboration, and this is a great example. Limelightangel (talk) 08:58, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@Limelightangel: No worries at all – I enjoy helping when I have the time, and it looks as if your students have done a fine job. Who knows, some of them might even become editors on one of the Wikipedias sometime! It's a great asset to be fluent in more than one language. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

disambiguation

I have fixed some of the links to disambiguation pages, but it still has a link to San Bernardino, which is a list of places named after the various Saint Bernards. If possible it wuold be better to link to the specific saint. ϢereSpielChequers 09:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The Bronze Age and early christian churches

I'm pretty sure that all of christianity except possibly Father Jack came long after the Bronze Age. So "Church of Saint Mary: Is the old baptismal church, a triple-naved church built after the Bronze Age" is not hugely useful. Unless the Church was originally a much older pre christian building that was converted in to a church? ϢereSpielChequers 09:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)