Talk:R. K. Narayan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Swamy or Swami?

The entry previously gave Narayan's second name as Krishnaswamy. According to the Ram & Ram biography and the standard library record, the spelling is with a final i, so I changed it. rdh

Rest of the family

We should also include the rest of the brothers and sisters. They were all very talented in their own way.... sb WAZ A FAJJIT ..................ISNT THAT NARLY DUDES —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.100.27 (talk) 22:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Birth

I remeber reading that RKN was born in Mysore and not Madras, not sure can anyone help, any idea??? --Sartaj beary 19:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• No he was definitely born in Madras. [See here] I remember something about his mother visiting his grandparents for his birth, in My Days probably..--Longhairandabeard 17:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

the Magnum Opus in the Infobox is ludicrous

I dont know which genius came up with the idea of including a Magnum Opus in an infobox but for a lot of writers, there is no one single, defining work or most famous work. Take Orwell -- both Animal Farm AND 1984. The same is true for Narayan.. Malgudi is famous for the entire range of books. --Peripatetic 00:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

--117.201.40.75 (talk) 07:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)HJUYFJGFFPKJGV ;JG .,NLN;KH BNLKHN LBL;

Language for names

Since he was born in, mostly lived in and died in Tamil Nadu and the fact that he was a Tamilian (refs in article show that), I've reverted the addition of Kannada script. -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 04:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

A person's birth place, domicile and ethnic heritage are not determinative of which languages to include in the article lede. For example, Salman Rushdie was born in and spent his early years in Bombay, later life in UK, and is an Indian (Kasmiri ?) Muslim, but it would be mindless to include either the Marathi or Urdu spelling of his name in his wikipedia article. Instead the languages to consider are the ones, (1) which the subject regarded as his mother-tongue, or (2) primarily worked in.

I am guessing that R.K. Narayan's mother-tongue was Tamil, rather than Kannada, so if there is a good source (his memoir ?) to confirm that, we can include the Tamil spelling. Barring that it is fine to just spell out his name in English, since that is the language he chose. Abecedare (talk) 19:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Just an add on point, I removed Tamil script initially, but added it back a few days ago after I noticed that he had some works in Tamil. -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 04:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, I didn't know that. Were these books, short stories, or just essays/articles ? Abecedare (talk) 18:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

From the refs I've seen so far, one was the Tamil film Avvaiyar where he was one of a few writers, another was Moondru Pillaigal; he also wrote another script for Gemini Studios apparently, but that never went to production. From what I have seen so far, his Tamil writings (outside of the film scripts) don't go beyond the odd use of a Tamil word within his English novels and short stories, which isn't significant. -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 18:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know about his film work. This interview with his brother R.K. Ramachandran discusses some of his work for Tamil films, although it's not clear if he actually wrote the dialogues, scripts etc for these films in Tamil. According to the last answer in the interview, Narayan never wrote in Tamil - although "wrote" is perhaps open to interpretation. I expect the sources you have consulted have more definite details; if so the film work can merit a sentence or two in the article. Nice work, so far! Abecedare (talk) 18:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

<undent> I found another curious ref in Gbooks while searching for the film script piece, this says he actually wrote a play called Avaiyar, I'm not too convinced of this, so unless I can get another ref, I'm not going to use it. However, in My dateless diary, (I think an earlier revision of My Days) Narayan talks about the script of the movie, unfortunately, I can't find my copy of My days, so until I can get that or check it up at a library, I won't be able to source and add this info.-SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 20:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Getting to FA status

Can you highlight issues that need to be fixed to get the article to FA status? Please add to the "to-do" list. -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 21:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• I think it needs a lot more work generally. I'm not sure it is near GA quality yet. Much more is needed on the work & critical reception for a start. Narayan sold well in the West - better than in India? - from early on, & this needs covering. Johnbod (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, I don't know about that, everything that I've been able to find so far indicates he was successful in the west and in India, but nothing to show that he was more successful in India or in the west, but I'll add in content on the actual success and beef up the literary review section. -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 22:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to add/expand to what's already mentioned on the to-do list: I think the content and coverage of the subject is actually pretty good, with minor additions like that mentioned by Johnbod above. The main need, in my opinion, is to tighten up the copy and narrative flow, which need some work. An overall copy edit is needed of course, but also there are some things that need explanation and clarification. There are several instances where attribution or more explanation would be helpful. For example, "his decision came to be respected." (by whom?). Priyanath ^talk 21:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

<outdent>I've expanded the critical reception section. How does it look now? What else needs to be added to this section? -SpacemanSpiff^{Calvin‡Hobbes} 17:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:R. K. Narayan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Drmies (talk) 02:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

GAN criteria, and their fulfillment

1. a. Well-written: yes. b. MoS: yes.
2. Factually accurate and verifiable: yes.
3. Broad: yes on both accounts.
4. Neutral: yes.
5. Stable: yes.
6. Illustrated: two illustrations is a bit meager, and I would love to see a couple of portraits, but this passes for GA status. Drmies (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Spiff, I'm going to make some random comments, to get my feet wet. I will give you something more comprehensive later, but I thought I'd give you an idea of which nits I like to pick.

For example: second paragraph of "Life", rm comma after "grandmother." (There are other erroneous/missing commas throughout the article.) In the same paragraph, edit third sentence: "...Laxman, the family conversed primarily in English..." "During their childhood" isn't really necessary; replace modal "would" with a regular preterite. Consider adding a comma after "avid reader." Consider replacing "12" with "twelve." Consider replacing "their family" (last sentence of same paragraph) with "the family."

Third paragraph, first sentence, reorder: "Narayan and his family moved to Mysore when his father..." Third sentence: "When he had completed", change maybe to "After completing..." Also third, comma after "Mysore." Fourth, comma after "however." Sixth, drop "albeit unpaid"--reviews are usually unpaid. (Or I'd be rich.) Next to last sentence, rm "that was" to make "an effort ridiculed by his uncle and rejected by a string of publishers" (parallelism). Last sentence, "ignoring" should read "ignored." In that same sentence, "the country" is a bit vague. And do you mean that the town is set in an India that wasn't ruled by the British? Drmies (talk) 03:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I've made all the changes above, and cleaned up the bio section per the recommendations. I'll take a closer look at the literary review section next. cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 06:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Under "Turning point," there is mention of non-Brahmins (wikilink the term). What caste was Narayan, and his wife? (if this is relevant at all.) In the same section, final paragraph, sharpen up "these books"--is there a general term in Narayan scholarship for these three early novels? Or consider saying "In these three early novels,..." Precision is appreciated here. How about "These three early novels highlight problematic but socially accepted practices." or some such thing? Drmies (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Brahmins are a caste (Narayan and his wife were Brahmins - Iyers to be precise). However, it isn't possible to wikilink non-Brahmins, it's just a term used for all castes that aren't Brahmins. Some critics/academics loosely group the books (1, 2 and 4 - 3 is excluded) as a trilogy, but it isn't a very well defined or used term. I'll get it to be more precise. -SpacemanSpiff 16:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added some context to this by linking Iyer. As for the bit about non-Brahmins/Brahmins, that's the subject of many scholarly works, but no wiki article yet, and unlikely for one to develop anytime soon. I've restructured the last paragraph to read a bit better. I still haven't found a term to link the three books, so I've used "first three books" instead. -SpacemanSpiff 18:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

In "The busy years," "although the protagonist in the novel continues to follow Narayan's main outline from his earlier creations" is not clear to me--"outline" is, I think, the problem here. Perhaps "trajectory" is a better word, but either way it needs a modifier of sorts. Are you talking about similar character development? similar character? similar fate? Sharpen that up (and I think there were one or two other places with similar phrases) and you will greatly improve the article. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Understood, I used the word to describe character development, not character itself. I believe I used similar descriptors for The Bachelor of Arts and Waiting for the Mahatma, I'll clean those out. -SpacemanSpiff 16:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I cleaned up the above two bits. I'll look for the other areas next. -SpacemanSpiff 18:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

In "The later years," opening paragraph--does this book have a name? And note the sequence of "Around the same time..." and then "The same year...": it goes from somewhat precise to really precise, but what year? 1980, right? Reverse the two statements, that might be better rhetorically also: recognition worldwide, then recognition even in Chinese. Next paragraph: consider tweaking "came out" (also further on in the paragraph, and a few paragraphs later)--a tad colloquial, and now also a double entendre. Remove the semi-colon before "all of them written..." Fourth paragraph, hyphen between "six" and "year" (compound noun used as adjective). Sixth paragraph, add comma after "fond of conversation," and one after "notebooks," and one after "2001." Drmies (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought I replaced the "came out" with "published", but maybe I missed another. I'll clean up this section, after my morning cuppa, it doesn't read as well as it did before bedtime. -SpacemanSpiff 16:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

That's how these things go. Coffee works wonders--almost as many as time, or an extra pair of eyes. Drmies (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Oops, don't know how I missed that, The Emerald Route added/linked. Punctuation issues addressed too. -SpacemanSpiff 04:27, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Literary review": consider adding more "According to..." kinds of phrases to the "writing style" section. For instance, "this objective style, rooted in a detached spirit, provides for a more authentic and realistic narration" is now stated as a matter of fact, but it is a matter of literary evaluation. Don't settle for the standard "some critics say that", but get specific: mention the name of the critic and wherever possible, give an indication of their status and authority, or where and when they said this. See examples at Geoffrey_Chaucer#Early_criticism, Geoffrey_Chaucer#Modern_scholarship. Conversation_poems#Critical_response is somewhat pedestrian (note the tedious alternation of "declares," "states," argues," etc.), giving only the names of the critics, but for GA status that should suffice, I believe. Moby-Dick#Critical_reception has decent elements. (I've been looking for a perfect example, but haven't found one yet.)

I think Faulkner and Greene might be over-wikilinked. "Critical reception": "One of his biographers, William Walsh..." needs a citation.

Part of the problem here is that lots of sources report "Critics saying this or that", I've added some attribution, I'll try to add some detailed attribution over the next 24h. -SpacemanSpiff 04:27, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Finally, "Selected Works" needs to be moved down the page; it breaks up the flow of the article. I am not sure if the works ought to be numbered: I have not seen it anywhere else. The columns are nice, but do try and wikilink the first occurence of every (notable) publisher. Tweak the third sentence of "Legacy"--it does not seem to be in a very felicitous order. "Some say the greatest" should probably go, unverified as it is--unless you have a real notable person saying this, in which case we need to know who. Introduce the Malgudi section with a topic sentence--and whose quote is that? Do all that and I think you're on easy street. Drmies (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I've moved it to just above the refs (I placed it where it was based on some other feedback, so now the adaptations section looks a bit out of place--maybe kill the section and add the content to the bio sections?) Publishers linked, although most are now acquired etc, one problematic one is Thomas Nelson - the British firm no longer exists and the link goes to the American firm where some of the history is covered. As for the numbering, this is an exhaustive list of originals (excludes all repackages/republishes), so I thought numbering would be nice. I can remove it if it looks ugly. Topic sentence added.

• But the heading says "Selected". If it is exhaustive, that's another feather in your cap--but then the heading isn't right. Which reminds me, I don't mind most of the somewhat impressionist headings, but "The ordeal" is a bit too literary (read: Kafkaesque) for me, and not entirely clear (I guess it relates to the death of his wife, but most of that section doesn't suggest his life and work were dominated by her death). Drmies (talk) 05:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Some say the greatest": a problematic, but IMO, a necessary inclusion. There are tons of sources (including The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Telegraph, The Hindu that say he is widely acclaimed to be the greatest; The Guardian and The Independent actually call him the greatest). Perhaps there's another way to address this? I added the quote attribution, it got lost when the cquote template was changed to quote template.

• I don't really think it's that problematic, but ChildofMidnight has a point: do modern critics still feel the same way? His objection, though unverified, is valid, and while in "GA mode" it's not that big a deal, it will be in the next step, where you will have to prove that the scholarship (and thus the evaluations of your subject's status) is current. For now, if you want to keep, say something like "According to Dr. X of the NYT and Dr. Y of The G, he is in fact the greatest...", followed of course by the references. But those Drs. better be highly notable and authoritative; the mere fact that the NYT or the G publish such a statement doesn't make it true. Drmies (talk) 05:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• I think I've fixed most attribution issues (the ref for William Walsh is the same as that for the next sentence on Anita Desai), list of works. I've also removed the "some say greatest" and left it as "one of the greatest of the twentieth century" as that is at least the lowest common denominator in all reviews. Let me know if anything else appears to be missing and any other changes you'd like. cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 04:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Oct 27

• I think you're well on your way now. A small thing is this: in the Harvard-style citations, I am positively puzzled by the lack of final punctuation. This is how they have the examples in all the templates--I don't understand it, it goes against all my MLA instincts. At least for aesthetic purposes, I'd include a period, so the note (see note 6, for instance) has one at the end.
  • Done. I was puzzled initially, but thought it was an MOS thing to differentiate notes.
• Another thing, and this is tedious (just as tedious as it was for me, when I was told in an FL review): you should list the name of a paper, for instance, under "newspaper" when you use the cite news template, not under "publisher." It's not so nice to do that now, for this article, but in the long run it will save you time: it italicizes automatically.
  • Done. Changed all newspaper refs to this format.
• A bigger thing is this, and I am glad I am aware of it now: according to WP:LEAD, with an article of this length (62k), you need a lead that is 3-4 paragraphs. I would suggest adding one in the middle, which mentions some of his works (the more notable ones, a possible series of books, etc) and gives some detail on some of them--this might then lead to the Malgudi reference in the third paragraph.
  • Ah, I wasn't aware of this. I'll expand.

• In earlier comments on the talk page, there was some commentary on his status in India vs. that in the rest of the world. That may be something to mention in the lead, somewhere. In "Critical Reception" you mention Indian and non-Indian criticism; it would be nice to have a kind of weighing of those issues, for comparative purposes, if you have a source that explains this.
  • I've struggled hard to find this information, but I can't do anything on this without synthesis. I split the section to talk about Indian vs non-Indian based on the TP comment, but I don't have a single source that actually compares the two.

• Finally, after another close look at that very section, I see some POV issues. I was looking at it and tweaked one of two small things, but then held back: some of the wording needs rephrasing. For instance, you speak of "lesser writers"--that is not NPOV enough. Third paragraph: the "Tharoor" sentence needs an "according to him" or something like that halfway through, after mention of Austen; right now it sounds too much like fact. The final sentence of that paragraph likewise needs rewriting. Besides, who is Shashi Deshpande? Why is her final word so authoritative?
  • Cleaned up this section to eliminate the POV, the "lesser" was actually lifted from the reference but (subconsciously) influenced by my opinion of Tharoor's book. I've used the term "later writers" -- I'd prefer something more descriptive, but can't think of any (younger doesn't provide the correct meaning, newer doesn't sound right for people), so if you have any recommendations, that would be appreciated. I've also added Deshpande to the passage as opposed to being part of the note. This would give credence to "later writers" as there's two of them now. One reason I'd asked many editors to review this section was due to my personal bias, which despite all good intentions doesn't go away!

• The same criticism applies to the fourth paragraph: too many of those sentences sound like accepted fact when they are value judgments--by authoritative persons, possibly, but still. (Or is everything in that fourth paragraph said by Naipul? No.) Same with fourth sentence of fifth paragraph. You should really go through each of these sentences and tweak them. Fix that section and you should be near the finish line. Drmies (talk) 03:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed this section with attribution and adjustments in delivery.
  • I'll go through another round of ce, expand the lede and let you know. cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 20:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

• Doc, I think I've addressed all the above issues. Let me know if there are any other changes you'd like to see. cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 20:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Other

I have some questions. Is this correct regarding the adaptation of Mr. Sampath: Miss Malini- 1947 was a Gemini film based on RK Narayan's famous novel Mr.Sampath... It was a story of a glib talker and a girl whom he lures into the filmworld. ? There is also a movie Mr. Sampat that some sources seem to link with the book and some don't. I can't quite discern whether it's related, but I don't think it is. Also, I find the film that was made in Hindi and another language confusing. It seems it was made in Hindi and then also performed (dubbed?) be another actress in another language? If you and Doc want to work on this without my interference no worries. Too many cooks and all... and I tend improvise. :) So, no worries if my input isn't appreciated. Just let me know! ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

One wasn't a dubbed version of the other. The Hindi version was made independently from the Tamil version. Unfortunately, all the reviews I find online are from non-RS sources, not surprising given that the movies were made over fifty years ago. The three main actors and the directors were different for both filsm; however, both were made by Gemini Studios and were hits. -SpacemanSpiff 19:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's a source [1]. The character of Miss Malini seems to have a lasting influence based on its current use (unless there's another source for the name?) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:30, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Belated comments

I had intended to review this article while the peer review was open, but kept getting waylaid by other on/off-wiki activities. That is unlikely to change anytime soon. So instead of postponing any further, I'll at least list my top points here for consideration.

Firstly, great job getting the article from this version to its current status. The GA status is well earned. Now. in order to get it to FA standards, some further refinements are required such as the ones listed at the peer review. To supplement those reviews, here are a few issues I see:

1. The language in the article, while grammatical, sometimes gets a bit informal or stilted. A few examples:
   • "getting publishers"
   • "highlight social context and provide a feel for his characters through everyday life"
   • "compress the narrative without losing out on elements of the story" (need an adjective before elements, because on compression you necessarily lose out on elements of a story)
   • "has also come in for criticism". Why not simply, "writings have also been criticized ..." ?
   • "did some of his studies at his" -> "studied at", "began his studies at" ... (the exact phrasing will depend upon the facts regarding when he was at that school)
   • "grammatical errors on the part of Narayan and his siblings" -> "ungrammatical speech" ?
   • "The book was reviewed as having a narrative ..."
2. The prose and intra-section organization doesn't flow well in some places. For example, the last sentences in the first two paragraphs in the Early life section seem out-of-place since it is not clear to a reader why they are being told those facts about Narayan's life, and how they are connected with the rest of the paragraph (except chronologically). Similarly, both the 2nd and 3rd paragraph mention RKN being a avid reader, but the two mentions are not linked, and no justification given as to why this fact bears repeating. Now, I know it is very hard to communicate what is mean by flow, but this review by User:SlimVirgin does a good job of expressing the idea. Worth reading.
3. Some of the reviews and praise for RKN needs better attribution and needs to be placed in context. For example:
   • The lede couples RKN with Mulk Raj Anand and Raja Rao. I think this is based upon this Outlook article and possibly the book R.K. Narayan as a novelist, which I don't think are good enough sources to make this statement without attribution. If we are to make such a claim, it needs to be based upon one or more scholarly articles or books that review the whole area of writing in Indian English, and not individual author profiles. Finer point: while I agree that the three listed authors are the leading lights of early Indian fiction in English, if one talks about Indian literature in English (as the lede does), it is hard to exclude Nirad C. Chaudhuri (of course, you need to rely eventually on what the sources say).
   • Similarly the claim that "The Financial Expert, hailed as one of the most original works of 1951" needs to be sourced to a reference that reviews the literature of that year thoroughly, since it is a claim about comparative worth.
   • The comparison to Faulkner also needs a better source. The comparison to Maupassant is better sourced, although it would be good to check if this is a singular observation by Lahiri, in which case it should be attributed, or if it is more widely held.

In terms of importance, I think it would be best to deal with comprehensiveness concerns expressed at the PR first, and only then take a look at the comments listed above. A copyeditor, who is disinterested in the subject, should be able to help greatly with a points I have raised, and User:Fowler&fowler and User:Awadewit would be among the ones I'd recommend. An article dealing with English literature is typically held to stricter 1a standards than say an article on a science or sports topic, so it is advisable to get this article into prime shape before nominating it for FAC. All the best. Abecedare (talk) 02:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Big house

I don't think the article should mention Narayans big house at least twice (including the year it was built) and his "new Mercedes Benz". It makes you wonder: which colour are his socks? How does his aftershave smell? ~Batty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.77.199.21 (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

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