Talk:Plaek Phibunsongkhram

Needs Some Editing

Just a quick alert: this page needs some editing for grammar, starting on paragraph four. I'd do it, but I don't know Thai history well enough to know if I was changing the meaning of the text. Jberkus 05:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Use official spelling

I have replaced the "Phibun" name to "Pibulsonggram". The whole word is his last name. Some may have mistaken that "Phibun" was the first name and "Songkram" was the last name. Also googling "Pibulsonggram" found that several of descendants use this spelling for the last name. -- Lerdsuwa 12:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I once did a series of replacing which got reverted by Mark, who said "His usual name in English is Phibun. What he's called in Thai is irrelevant." (Not that I agree.) I intended to look a bit into this, but haven't had time yet. From what I've seen though, this misconception(?) might be mainly based on usage in Britannica. --Paul C 18:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Most books (in English) I have read uses the shortened name - as does a number of Thai academics that I know. The former case seems to have stemmed from the fact that wartime documents (Allied, Japanese) used too the shortened version.

That said, either way of spelling is fine by (while I prefer Mark's version, I'm just too lazy to change anything). I'll just simply advocate "Phibunsongkhram" and "Phibun" through my soon-to-be published books. --The King Maker 07:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

In the 1920s and 30s, the man in question was commonly called (by us Thais, that is) "Luang Phibun". While "Jomphon Por", Field Marshal P., became popular with the public following his self-promotion to that rank; his opponents and all foreigners continued the usage of "Phibun" (note that the honourary title had been rejected). --The King Maker 08:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Name

Plaek, meaning "strange" - because of his unusual appearance as a child - because he was jug-eared, though I don't have a reference for that.

honorary title of Luang from King Prajadhipok in 1928, becoming Luang Pibunsongkhram. Pibunsongkhram = พิบุล or พิบูล ว. กว้างขวาง, มาก broad, much + สงคราม น. การรบใหญ่ war. Definitions are from RID; award was due to his having excelled in his academic study of war. Don't have a ref. Anybody else? --Pawyilee (talk) 11:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, doesn't "songkram" mean "war" in Thai? Perhaps it is "Pibun the Warrior". Also there is that strange Thai transliteration practice of using "l" at the end of words that are actually spoken as "n". Pibul is pronounced Pibun in Thai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.237.161.221 (talk) 00:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The literal meaning of Pibun pronounced with even tones on both syllables, the first short and the second short or long as given above, is from a Pali/Sanskrit term meaning broad, expansive; suffixed with Thai for war, it implies broad[ly knowledgeable of] war[fare]; and was a one-off award by Rama VII to Lt. Plaek for excellence in his military studies in France. There is, however, a phonological connection to holy warrior (and to messiah prior to Christianity's having given it a different meaning.) Give the first syllable a long, rising tone for Thai ghost, spirit (ผี) and make the second short and even for merit (Buddhism); holy; virtuous; pure; sacred (บุญ), and you get Buddhist monks who incited or led popular revolts; one did so immediately following the fall of Ayutthya, and some others did in response to Rama VI's administrative reforms. It was in this context that Rama VII had dreamed up the secular title for the academic award of Pibulsonggram, as was the revolutionary Plaek's adoption of it as his surname. As this is OR, I can't incorporate it into this article. Nor do I know where to find good historical references to the revolts of the many messianic monks known as Revolts of the Pibun กบถผีบุญ.

PS Google search returned only Thai, for example:

กบถผีบุญ นายศิลา วงศ์สิน เมื่อปีพ.ศ.2502 [Pibun revolt of Mr.Sila Wongsin AD 1959]

ก่อนอื่นขอเล่าเรื่อง กบฏผีบาป ผีบุญ หรือ กบฏผู้มีบุญ ให้ฟังคล่าวๆก่อน เพื่อเชื่อมโยงเหตุการณ์ให้เห็นภาพ กบฏผีบาป ผีบุญ เกิดขึ้นประมาณปี 2444 – 2445 ....[Before anyone else asks, to give a picture of Pibun Revolt or Revolt of Phoo Mee Boon heard to have leaked out before, the Revolt of Evil Piboon broke out around AD 1901-1902....]

--Pawyilee (talk) 11:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

---

Plaek Pibunsongkhram → Plaek Phibunsongkhram – Phibunsongkhram is both the most common transcription in English-language publications (see NGram) and the correct transcription according to Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS). It is also the only common spelling used in combination with the first name "Plaek" (NGram) The spelling that is currently used in the title is completely unusual (0 hits in the NGram), probably a self-made transcription by a Wikipedia user. RJFF (talk) 13:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

• Go ahead, but "Pi-" instead of "Phi-" is historical, not some Wikipedia user's concoction. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. The current title is an original blending of various transcription systems. Britannica has "Luang Phibunsongkhram", so it seems that "Phibun" is the modern spelling. When the subject was prime minister, he was "Pibul Songgram," as you can see here. Kauffner (talk) 22:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support either Plaek Pibulsonggram or Plaek Phibunsongkhram: The page was spelled Plaek Pibulsonggram until last December when it was moved by User:Aristitleism. Pibulsonggram appears to be the spelling preferred by most of his descendants (particularly Nitya Pibulsonggram, whose article I've modified as such). Contemporaneous Western news sources, as far as Google News shows, used various spellings: the New York Times[1], Chicago Tribune[2] and The Age referred to "Field Marshal Pibul Songgram", Christian Science Monitor[3] used "Field Marshal P. Pibulsonggram", the Sydney Morning Herald[4] used "Plack Bipul Songgram". "Phibun Songkhram" was also used. Notably most uses modified his surname into a two-part name itself. These were from when even the King's name didn't have a consistent spelling, so perhaps they shouldn't carry much weight. Though I don't believe RTGS should generally be used to determine the spelling of person's names, since sources discussing him in a historical context mostly use Phibunsongkhram, that may be the best spelling to follow. (I also note that it's rather unsurprising that "Plaek" doesn't show up much in results, since he himself preferred not to use his given name in full.) --Paul_012 (talk) 07:41, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New museum in his honour

Hi! I have no idea how to edit, so I just contribute to the Talk page. A new military museum has opened in Chiang Rai named after this person. I think it opened last year (2012). The museum has no English signage and is VERY sparsely appointed. Exhibits are few. It seems a most interesting development. Why now and why here? Numanonja (talk) 03:22, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

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Denis Kearney

Any sources that Phibunsongkhram's ideology was inspired by Kearney in particular? It doesn't seem that are references to back up the claim in the article itself, and a quick glance at Google Scholar reveals nothing. Magnimik (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)