Talk:Pink tide/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Alejandro Toledo

If Alejandro Toledo, ex-president of Peru, is a moderate leftist, then why wasn't he in the article until I PARTIALLY added him?Mausebru (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• I think he is under the conservative wave as he has neoliberal policies during his presidency and he is on the right

RfC about social democrats on the Pink Tide

Should social democrats presidents be included in the Pink Tide? Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

To further explain: Social democracy has a long history in Latin America as it has it in Europe and Canada and lots of social democratic parties have had governments since the 30s. Social democrats are generally considered moderate center-left and yet some were included as part of the Pink Tide. Alvaro Colom on Guatemala and Luis Guillermo Solís/Carlos Alvarado in Costa Rica were removed for that reason, but others remain like Laurentino Cortizo (PRD) in Panama and Michelle Bachelet and other Concertación governments in Chile. Chile for example has currently a frontrunner who is truly left-wing, Daniel Jadue of the Communist Party of Chile who, if elected, will be a true Pink Tide case. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Include Checking a few RSs, I see that "pink tide" is almost always described as electoral victories by "left and center-left" candidates. I would say that's grounds for including social democrats. But I suspect the real discussion will begin with the efforts of defining how center-left and individual candidate has to be in order to be included. Especially since social democracy is a term wide enough, with different definitions around the world, to basically have its own political spectrum. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I would say:

Stay	Remove	Add
Argentina: Alberto Fernández* (2019–present) Brazil: Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva* (2003–2011) Dilma Rousseff* (2011–2016) El Salvador: Mauricio Funes* (2009–2014) Mexico: Andrés Manuel López Obrador* (2018–present) Paraguay: Fernando Lugo* (2008–2012) Peru: Ollanta Humala* (2011–2016) Uruguay: Tabaré Vázquez* (2005–2010; 2015–2020)	Chile: Ricardo Lagos* (2000–2006) Michelle Bachelet* (2006–2010; 2014–2018) Dominican Republic: Leonel Fernández* (1996–2000; 2004–2012) Danilo Medina* (2012–2020) Luis Abinader* (2020–present) Panamá: Martín Torrijos Espino* (2004–2009) Laurentino Cortizo* (2019–present)	Suriname: Dési Bouterse (2010–2020) maybe: Guyana: Cheddi Jagan (1995–1997) Janet Jagan (1997–1999) Bharrat Jagdeo* (1999–2011) Donald Ramotar* (2011–2015) Irfaan Ali (2020–present) Saint Vincent: Ralph Gonsalves* (2001–)

References

so these presidents which will be removed are either have moderate positions (and don't had good/better relationships to other "pink" countries; PRD (Panama)), turned their party into third way (or are members of centrist organizations like Center-Democratic Integration Group; PRD (Dominican R.), PLD, PRM) or are close to centrist parties than to communist/socialist parties (Convergencia) Braganza (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Stalin990, Dentren, NoonIcarus, Son of Kenway, Roycebellion243, Bageense, Angele201002, and Sumanuil: what do you think?

• We should include heads of state who are actually mentioned by RS as being part of the pink tide, irrespective of assessments of their specific political tendency. To do otherwise is original research. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I add different sources of a few minutes of research from all where I could get google results quickly Braganza (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, FWIW I think most of the current entries on the list are likely fine (with the only obvious exception to my knowledge being the Cuban heads of state). But our methodology should be to go straight from RS descriptions to entries, not to attempt to assess the specific political tendencies that these leaders/governments belong to and then infer which ones are pink tide governments. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

True, changing to sources would make it easier, I think we wont find sources for the DR since all the big parties (PLD, PRM, FP, PRD) are quite similar and have a common origin and therefore you cannot speak of international waves Braganza (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Braganza's suggestion on keep, remove and add. Regarding sources should be remembered that because of Onus probandi we should be able to source that someone is a part of the Pink Tide, not that someone isn't as you are not obligated to prove a negative. In that sense unless a reasonable number of reliable sources say so, the leader should be excluded by de-fault. In the cases above I only see one source supporting Lagos and Bachelet as pink tides and I can't read because is for suscription (I think there was a recent rule about non-free sources?) thus is pretty bleak at the moment. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of which, are you fluent in other languages Braganza? Because it might be necessary to have the same discussion in the Spanish article for example. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Sry, i don't speak spanish, it also seems to be ineffective because most of the users were either not logged in or (Ochentero) banned... [1] But i can try it with a translator Braganza (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks for the ping. The proposed list looks fine overall, but I have to join Rosguill and ask to be careful to make any changes unless here are reliable sources that support them to comply with the verifiability policy and prevent original research (which I can see is already currently noted in a tag in the article). Personally I'd only be reluctant to remove Bachelet, as from what I gather she's usually included as part of the pink tide. I'd also suggest to watch out for changes after 2010, since I understand that the pink tide is usually defined as a period up to the earl 2010s at most, without prejudice of expanding further on this in the Resurgence section. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok I think we are getting to some consensus. I would say we agree on keep the first column, remove most of the second column and add the third column based on rs.

Regarding Lagos and Bachelet I personally would remove them but can be re added if further sources are provided, but do not oppose keeping if others want to. Any thoughts? Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

how about if Lagos and Bachelet stay, but with the note that we already use for the Dominican presidents ("The XY in which AB belongs to has a centrist position.") Braganza (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Could be, a similar case to Mel Zelaya, althoug Im still dubious on how left wing Bachelet and Lagos really were. Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary. My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. Dereck Camacho (talk)---

I see that there are indeed references that include Lagos and Bachelet and see no problem with the inclusions of Surinam and St. Vicent.

I also see that the same discussion is taking place in Portuguese.

My only doubt now is whether Cuba should be included, as someone puts it in Portuguese, is neither part of a wave nor pink. Anyone opposes removing it? For the opposite reason that the social democrats, is not moderate enough.

Also Braganza I think is ok for you to make the suggested changes on Spanish if no one comments. Dereck Camacho (talk) 02:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Dereck Camacho: If we are keeping parties that are members of the Foro de São Paulo (the maps are based on that) as part of the pink tide, we need to keep it. Also, you say that it is not moderate enough but Díaz-Canel and Maduro are not too different. The PC is a member of the Foro and COPPPAL (as well as ALBA). The same reasoning works for PLD (and even PRM with the Foro although PRM is quite far from pink). The problem is that it is a media grouping and different sources will include different countries. I think another question is the inclusion of SVG without any sources claiming them to be part of the pink tide. If we include them, why don't we include Barbados (centre-left), Dominica (ALBA, COPPPAL), Belize (COPPPAL), etc. Angele201002 (talk) 09:56, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Angele201002 what should determine who is included and who isn't is reliable sources, not the pictures we add, if that's a source of controversy is better to remove the maps all togheter. Souces and maps may disagree, for example Toledo's party (Peru) is not a member of the FSP and is incluided whilst Cortizo's party (Panama) is a member and is not included as no source was found that included Cortizo as part of the pink tide. Add what you want as far as there are RS, but taking the map as basis is incorrect, if the maps cause trouble the best thing is to remove them. Another option would be to just make a whole new map about the pink tide for this article only. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 11:09, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dereck Camacho: Fully agree however I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Anyways here is a Reuter’s article putting Raúl Castro as part of the pink tide https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/another-pink-tide-latin-americas-left-galvanized-by-rising-star-peru-2021-06-21/ and also the SVG source doesn’t seem to mention Gonsalves as pink tide only that ALBA is a result of the pink tide Angele201002 (talk) 14:11, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, personally I found strange to count Castro as part of a "wave" but if the sources say so, fine. If the other is not included I see no problem in the removal. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 06:35, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Tip: There's a fully referenced list of "Head of the states and governments" and timeline in the Porutguese Wikipedia: pt:Guinada à esquerda. It may contain fewer items, but at least they're all properly referenced. --Bageense^(disc.) 03:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Very good I will import them. Im thinking in closing this RfC around wednesday as it will be a week since openned unless further debate emerges. Dereck Camacho (talk) 04:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

French Guiana

Gabriel Serville won the election, should we include it? Braganza (talk) 10:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

It is not part of Latin America Liberaltarian12345 (talk) 14:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Guyana and Suriname?

It looks like in the past few months Guyana and Suriname were added and then removed from the list and timeline, with the following leaders in question:

• Guyana:
  • Bharrat Jagdeo* (1999–2011)
  • Donald Ramotar* (2011–2015)
  • Irfaan Ali (2020–present)
• Suriname:
  • Dési Bouterse* (2010–2020)

Jagdeo, Ramotar, and Ali are all members of the People's Progressive Party (Guyana), while Bouterse is from National Democratic Party (Suriname). It looks like both parties were originally left-wing parties that have drifted closer to center-left.

Is there an official stance on whether Guyana and Suriname were part of the pink wave? --BadgerPriest (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Hard to tell honestly, I know very little about those countries. I personally do not have a position in favor or againts their inclusion. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 07:03, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

and both Panama and DR recognized Guaido while Guyana supported National Assembly (despite very bad relations to Venezuela) and Suriname recognized Maduro

@BadgerPriest and Dereck Camacho: I wouldn't even count the (today's) PRM+PLD+PRD (Dominican R.) and PRD (Panama) to this "pink wave" because they are centrist parties and are part of the Center-Democratic Integration Group, while PPP/C+PNC/R and NDP are clearly left Braganza (talk) 08:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I have no objection with the removal of the Dominican parties that you mention. I'm more doubtful about Panama's PRD as is a member of the Sao Paulo Forum. Do you have any sources that says that is indeed more right wing? Dereck Camacho (talk) 09:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know too much about politics in Panama, so I may be wrong, but I see no reason to leave out the NDP while Dominican centrist parties are listed in even though similar parties (APRA and PAIS) are for that reason not listed or even listed in the conservative wave
To cut a long story short, I suggest replacing DR with Suriname (and maybe Guyana) Braganza (talk) 09:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

No objection on my behalf. We could discuss a little the issue of Panama, maybe even Chile as Concertacion is not that different either. I will open a request for comment. However I see no problem with replacing RD. Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Guatemala should be here with Alvaro Colom.Not so sure about Panama and Dominican Republic,but Suriname,Guayana and Saint Vincent should not be here cause they aren't latin countries.They mostly belong to the british commonwealth,speak non-latin languages,are mostly different ethnically and have an altogether different history.

They are not part of Latin America tho https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be Liberaltarian12345 (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Guyana,Suriname or any other Commonwealth caribbean country should be listed.

Regardless of the fact that these countries have indeed been ruled by the left,the term Pink Tide refers very specifically to a Latin American phenomenon,and Anglo or Dutch caribbean are not part of Latin America,as the very Wikipedia page on Latin America defines it. Moreover,Suriname and the commonwealth caribbean countries do not share the historical or social traits that are common to Ibero-America nor do they speak a latin language (like Haiti,for example),therefore i strongly suggest that Guyana,Suriname and Saint Vincent and Grenadines be removed because their inclusion mischaracterizes the whole article.

Lsiai-OA9U\AJn (talk) 05:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

My Take/Suggestions of the matter

There has obviously been a lot of debate with this subject. I would like to address them point by point to try and streamline it.

First of all let us identify WHAT IS THE PINK TIDE. Pink Tide: "a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century" buy that notion Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent, and Cuba should not be included because A: Cuba is not a democracy B: Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Saint Vincent are not Latin American countries https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=JN9zndL_eCA&feature=youtu.be

Who counts and who doesn't: Even excluding the countries that are contentious, there seems to be debate on who counts as Pink Tide and who doesn't:

Some people think the Center-Left should be excluded like Ricardo Lagos and Michelle Blanchet. My case for them remaining is that due to Pinochet essentially being one of the founders of Neoliberalism, the shift to the Left is a part of the Pink Tide.

Alejandro Toledo seems to have contention about shifting to the right during his tenure, however people like Daniel Ortega and Ollanta Humala do not seem to have that problem. The explanation there is that Toledo's party was not really explicitly leftist, meanwhile Ortega and Humala's were. And unlike someone like Lenin Moreno, the shift was not drastic enough to be noticeable and they still campaign as Leftists

MY PROPOSED PINK TIDE LIST: Néstor Kirchner (2003–2007) Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007–2015) Alberto Fernández (2019–present) Evo Morales (2006–2019) Luis Arce (2020–present) Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (2003–2011) Dilma Rousseff (2011–2016) Ricardo Lagos* (2000–2006) Michelle Bachelet* (2006–2010; 2014–2018) Rafael Correa (2007–2017) Mauricio Funes* (2009–2014) Salvador Sánchez Cerén (2014–2019) Manuel Zelaya (2006–2009) Andrés Manuel López Obrador* (2018–present) Daniel Ortega (2007–present) Fernando Lugo* (2008–2012) Ollanta Humala* (2011–2016) Pedro Castillo (2021–present) Tabaré Vázquez* (2005–2010; 2015–2020) José Mujica (2010–2015) Hugo Chávez (1999–2013) Nicolás Maduro‡ (2013–present)

I have no prefrence on whether or not Martín Torrijos or Laurentino Cortizo remain on

I strongly agree,adding Guyana,Suriname and so on is a very crass mistake. On the other hand,due to the very conservative political stablishment in Guatemala,i'd add Alvaro Colom,that's because i dont think the spirit of the Pink Tide is not wheter the government was radical or not,but simply if it moved the counttry leftwards,doesn't really metter how much.177.66.106.14 (talk) 01:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

There is also the interperetation that Pink Tide leaders associate with eachother frequently that might make some people reconsider their choices. That is only partially relevant in the matter Liberaltarian12345 (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on this dispute one way or another, but I will note that the above arguments are largely original research; the be-all end-all of whether we should be including a government on this list is if reliable sources describe it as part of the pink tide. If governments of Guyana and other "non-Latin" countries are not described by reliable sources as part of the pink tide we should not include them in the list; if RS do describe them as pink tide governments, then we should include them, regardless of whether they are "Latin" or not in our judgment. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:26, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Maybe we should delete this list altogether,the more important names are mentioned elsewhere on the article 177.66.106.14 (talk) 22:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

But would that not contradict with the Definition of Pink Tide? Liberaltarian12345 (talk) 23:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

what ? inserting non latin countries ? or mentioning center leftist ? I mantain that since there's no consensus,we delete the list of rulers,the article is fine without it.177.66.106.14 (talk) 01:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

"The Pink tide (Spanish: marea rosa, Portuguese: onda rosa, French: marée rose), or turn to the left (Spanish: giro a la izquierda, Portuguese: guinada à esquerda, French: tournant à gauche), was a political wave and perception of a turn towards left-wing governments in Latin American democracies moving away from the neoliberal economic model at the start of the 21st century. As a term, both phrases are used in contemporary 21st-century political analysis in the media and elsewhere to refer to a move toward more progressive economic or social policies in Latin America" With that deifinition in mind,we should include all the governments that were generally considered leftists,no metter how much.What seems to me that is up to decide is what countries belong to Latin America or not...Guyana has been on the hands of leftists of one kind or another almost the entire time since independence,Suriname had as a military dictator in the 80's a man who is listed here as been a part of pink tide in his democratic return to power,other small caribbean nations have had center-left parties who regularly won elections since there was self government,like Bahamas or Belize.That can be sketchy,because those countries have largely diferent political histories than those more widely recognized as latin countries who gained their independencies in the 19th century,so very probably at the same time you'll have credible sources who define latin america only as the 20 countries who speak latin languages,credible sources that say pink tide is a latin phenomenon and credible sources putting anglo and dutch speaking countries in the pink tide,they will contradict themselves

Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a Pink Tide Adjacent/Disputed section where you can put the Countries that do not fit exactly with the definition of Pink Tide. The Latin countries can be listed as Pink Tide Proper then countries like Guyana and Suriname (As well as disputed leaders) can be put in a separate section. I may or may not edit the page in order to test the idea out, and feel free to revert it if you all do not like it -Liberaltarian12345

Seem ok,but not ideal,to me .177.66.106.14 (talk) 02:40, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Great, if u think it should be reworded better just do that Liberaltarian12345 (talk)

Should Dominican Republic be part of the Pink Tide?

Take note that during the Presidency of Leonel Fernandez and Danilo Medina, their party the Dominican Liberation Party was part of the São Paulo Forum despite their centrist position. So should we move it to the official or put it in the Disputed position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizen Marc Christian (talk • contribs) 01:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes,and Panama should be in the disputed section also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.66.106.89 (talk) 21:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Rename

Maybe the artcile should be rename to Pink tides, in plural, instead of the current one. A tide by definition is cyclical and the Conservative Wave did interrupted the first Pink Tide of the 2000s having what many consider now a second Pink tide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.64.166.208 (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Chile

Should Chile be considered as part of the Pink tide considering Gabriel Boric's victory 2001:56A:F4D9:B000:DCA9:E982:4F63:7936 (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 7 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

---

Pink tide → Pink tides – Several authors consider that we have experienced more than one "tide" of pink, with at least one from lat 90s early 2000s, later interrupted by the Conservative wave, and then followed by at least a second pink tide in more recente years. References 186.64.166.208 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 15:50, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Per WP:PLURAL._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 15:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
  • But it explicitly allows for plural titles if the article is about "a group of distinct entities that are nevertheless often considered together". The question is, are the two tides distinct to each other, and are they grouped together in general parlance? (Not supporting or opposing, but wanting to clarify how PLURAL is to be interpreted here). — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

    In this case I assume it's talking about the concept of a "pink tide". Even if there are multiple ones, it remains a similar concept and should be singular. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 21:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

    Appreciated. I just was tired of seeing people citing policy shortcuts in RMs without actually forming an argument or evidence supporting or opposing a move. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 15:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

New pink tide

The portuguese article pt:Nova guinada à esquerda already exists, in case anyone wants to translate it. I've added some content today (there was just one paragraph before), and it is now worth translating. --Bageense^(disc.) 04:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that a new pink tide needs to be acknowledge, either as a separate section in this article, moving this article's name or creating a new article altogether can be up for discussion. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 10:13, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Change of map

Shouldn't we mark Colombia red since recently inaugurated Gustavo Petro's Historic Pact for Colombia is a member of Sao Paulo Forum? I'm asking because I see no one is doing it yet. 91.150.125.252 (talk) 02:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)