Talk:Pickathon

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I thought this was a really good intro about what the festival is all about. However, I was a little confused about the sustainable ethos. I thought maybe you could have dived in a little more about the festival message. Also, Have you thought about putting in a section for notable acts that have performed there? as a reader, I think that would be really cool to see.

Thanks for sharing! -Maxlydon WR121

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 October 2019 and 11 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cook.tanner. Peer reviewers: Maxlydon, Stardiff9.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

COI / paid public relations editing highly likely

Special:Contributions/Bigupbigdown Graywalls (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC) The user names and image authorship presented in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Northwestbornandraised is also a strong indication of public relations activity. Graywalls (talk) 17:36, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

While reviewing edit history, I noticed that PR whitewash effort in 2023 by a single purpose account scrubbed out reliably sourced info about deaths which was originally added by some volunteer editor , so I just restored that. Graywalls (talk) 18:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Someone from Ireland added a photo on July 2023 that was ripped from the festival's website copyrighted in 2022. Special:Diff/1163064976, an activity quite indicative of public relations activity. Graywalls (talk) 23:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Disputing removal of bands and sustainability info

First off, I'm an admitted Pickathon fan but have no commercial interest in the festival besides paying to attend. I have made some good-faith efforts to improve this page, including adding a short list of notable bands (which @Maxlydon WR121 suggested above) and additional detail + and illustration about the token dishware system. This dishware system -- replacing ALL plastic and single-use containers --- stands out in my mind as one of the most significant innovations in the festival, and I'd argue deserves to be highlighted. @Graywalls keeps removing such additions and says a list of sample bands is UNDUE and needs to be lifted from a news article. I'm happy to source the bands (there is no shortage of news stories) but wrote the list to highlight those with Wikipedia pages.

In short question, two questions I'd love for others to weigh in on:

Is it UNDUE to make up a list on the fly of bands that the average reader may recognize?

Is it fair to include more about the sustainable dishware token system, including a graphic illustrating how it works?

Monkeywire (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia would be big mess if everyone decided to include what they felt should be included and referencing the article subject's own website, people's website, Instagram, YouTube and such. Please see WP:PSTS, WP:BLOG and WP:ABOUTSELF. The article will be bloated with things the article subject wants emphasized and minimize what they don't want emphasized.

The use of company/person's own site as a source should be done very minimally. It's ok to verify primitive facts that is useful for every article. For example, who founded it, when it was founded and where it's located. In order for anything to be included, it needs to be reliably WP:V, but not everything verifiable belongs. If it's not discussed in mainstream corporate media, it generally shouldn't go in. Graywalls (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree about personal feelings but there are many news articles about Pickathon's sustainability practices, including some that aren't referenced in this section (which I can add). I added at most a sentence or two to explain how the dish system works and you simply removed it and the illustration. Monkeywire (talk) 21:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

https://music.mxdwn.com/2018/04/26/news/pickathon-announces-2018-lineup-featuring-built-to-spill-broken-social-scene-and-tinariwen/ also, the paid ad placed by the festival is not a secondary source. The event flier shouldn't be used as a basis of inclusion of listing out bands per WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTAWEBHOST. Graywalls (talk) 23:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Also please note this removal by by an admin Materialscientist , and re-inserted by the public relations single purpose account. The insertion likely represents what the organizer wants to emphasize. So, anything introduced into the article by the obvious PR account should likely be removed.Graywalls (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Maintenance tag removal

@Monkeywire:, please explain why you removed the "better source needed" template next to Travel Portland as a reference, which bills itself as "We are a promoter and steward of this evolving city and its progressive values, which have the power to transform the travelers who visit us.". This is clearly a partisan promotional source. Graywalls (talk) 23:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant to replace it. Fixed now. Monkeywire (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

COI template

The template has been placed, because I am starting to see "festival guide" type contents of the kind previously dumped into this article by single purpose editor Bigupbigdown slowly restored into place, but with different sources, some being completely unacceptable self published source like blogs. Graywalls (talk) 15:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I have no clue who other contributors to this page. Pickathon is almost entirely volunteer; literally hundreds each year. Your policing of sourced, fact-based and noncontroversial material as if we're talking about Watergate is out-of-step with other music festival pages. Monkeywire (talk) 15:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Monkeywire:, please stop re-introducing similar contents previously removed for NPOV issue. Discuss to get consensus. It's already disputed. It specifically involves your latest introduction of materials substantially similar to what was introduced in the series of public relations editing by one time single purpose account in 2023. Graywalls (talk) 15:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a request for a Wikipedia:3O in this matter. I used Google News, not this entry's history, to add sourced material and, before yesterday, have never contributed to this page and do not know who has. (I have, however, attended Pickathon and saw Lake Street Dive and Avett Brothers before they became huge.) Monkeywire (talk) 16:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

While @Graywalls and @Netherzone have been cutting the page to remove positive (sourced) material and added the NPOV tag to encourage more cutting, I would argue that it's tone is currently (1252938792) negative and unreflective of the enthusiastic news coverage/reviews of this event. I'm also a little mystified as to why this particular music festival is getting treated as if it's Watergate or some controversial issue. Monkeywire (talk) 16:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm unsure what "(1252938792) negative" means, however please try to understand that WP is not a place to share enthusiasm, it's an encyclopedia. Please use social media or Fandom for enthusiasm. One of our most important key Content Policies is: Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

This source -- which, like the country music blog, notes a number of now-popular bands who got their start at Pickathon and also discussess volunteerism -- was removed. But Paste is a respected source for music coverage. The info about sustainability you removed was from Billboard.

Let's be clear: I am disputing the removal of sourced material and statements connected to those sources, not writing a bunch of puffery. In addition to other points named elsewhere in Talk, you took out the point that free childcare is offered. Monkeywire (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, free childcare at a festival is not at all unique or a distinguishing characteristic, it's run-of-the mill.

Regarding Paste as a source, this article is about a Pickathon LLC's event, it is not about the bands themself. Pickathon is a limited liability company, and sources should be of the highest quality, independent and verifiable. If you can find a better source please feel free to add the bands back that were previously listed. Netherzone (talk) 17:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think "free" in this contexts is considered a "price" in terms of WP:NOTPRICES. Buy 1 for $10, get 2nd for free means practically the same as $5 each. The difference is that it ensures more revenue per purchase. You pay $10 even if you get 1. The ticket and parking prices are absurd and they're listed in https://www.koin.com/local/clackamas-county/could-pickathon-2023-be-the-festivals-last/ but including those prices are likely not appropriate per WP:NOTPRICES.. and so is naming all these amenities made "free" with expensive upfront cost. These heavily advertised "free" amenities are sales pitch. Graywalls (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Removal of blog source

I am disputing the removal of the sentence sourced by Save Country Music and would like to reinstate it reworded. This blog by a freelance music writer is an established source for news related to indie country music, admittedly a niche field:

"A number of acts played Pickathon before their rise to prominence, including Sturgill Simpson, Lake Street Dive, The Avett Brothers, and Langhorne Slim. " (as stated more directly here) Monkeywire (talk) 16:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Save Country Music is definitely a blog, and per WP guidelines Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living persons (which would include bands with living members) It goes on to state: "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs.. Netherzone (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sourced sentence on dishware

I'm disputing the removal of a sourced sentence explaining how the dishware system works: After a patron pays the fee to use the dishware, they get to keep a set.

To remove this piece is to leave out what makes the system work for patrons -- they have a momento as opposed to just paying a fee.

Other music festivals don't do this and charge fees for plastic, disposable water bottles. I assume that this doesn't seem significant to @Netherzone and @graywalls but it has been covered by a number of national news sources. Monkeywire (talk) 16:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm....? The sentence says: Patrons can either bring their own tableware and water bottles or pay a fee to use plates, utensils on site, through a token system, which attendees can keep. Neutral, descriptive and encyclopedic. WP does not care if "patrons" have a "momento", WP is not a venue for advocating, advertising, promotion, etc. it is an encyclopedia. Please use social media for promotion. Thank you! Netherzone (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The fact that they get to KEEP the things they pay to use is significant and was cut. Few people would want to pay to use dishware otherwise. Monkeywire (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand how this sentence contradicts that Patrons can either bring their own tableware and water bottles or pay a fee to use plates, utensils on site, through a token system, which attendees can keep. It clearly states that attendees can pay to use the dishwater and utensils and then keep it. The only error in the sentence I see might be the word, "Patrons". Netherzone (talk) 16:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's grammatically wrong. It also is a significant-enough practice (no other music festivals have been found to do this) that it merits two sentences, Monkeywire (talk) 17:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You also removed the fact that water is available free throughout the site. (Almost all music festivals charge for bottled water.) It's an unusual practice, was sourced, and merits a sentence. Monkeywire (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this is an unusual practice, and given the problem of Heat illness, I wish that free water were required by law.

But what matters is more about the number of reliable sources, rather than my sympathy for it. I had a look in Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library, and found these descriptions of the event:

• "Discover newer artists (The Beths) and watch indie folk royalty (Damien Jurado) take the stage at this plastic-free jam session in the woods just outside of Portland." – Sunset (magazine)
• "For years, some of America's best festivals have made their names passing over superstars in favor of adventurous programming in cool settings.... PICKATHON (AUGUST 1ST-4TH), in Happy Valley, Oregon, puts a hippie spin on avant-gardism: Phil Lesh and the Terrapin Family Band will tend to the Grateful Dead flame alongside cosmic jazz (Makaya McCraven), Thai-inspired trance-funk (Khruangbin) and rootsier acts like Nathaniel Rateliff and the Night Sweats." – Rolling Stone
• "Broadcast programmes such as One World: Together at Home, organized live-streamed concert series such as those sponsored by Pickathon in April 2020, and databases of upcoming streamed performances by organizations such as NPR supported musicians by guiding listeners to live music in the early US lockdown stage of the pandemic (Global Citizen and World Health Organization 2020; [16]; [ 9])." – doi:10.1386/ijcm_00045_1
• "The rare lineup that doesn't feature Jack White or Outkast. Nickel Creek, Warpaint and Angel Olsen are slated for this quaint festival in Happy Valley, Ore. Aug. 1-3" – Time (magazine) (2014)
• "If you're looking for something different, something to do with the entire family or have already seen OutKast four times, head to Happy Valley, Oregon for the annual Pickathon. The festival brings an impressive roster of indie talent to Pendarvis Farm for a relatively intimate (it's capped at 3,500 people) event. The festival offers a more family-friendly vibe, including an entire schedule of events for kids, and food trucks that rival any food festival (or festival food) options, although you should pack your own dishes; Pickathon has a unique eco-friendly approach that virtually eliminates waste. This is Oregon, after all." – Time (magazine) (2014)
• "Nature Commode, a startup that makes compost-based portable toilets...The Nature Commode is constructed with sustainable materials and uses the waste produced for compost rather than adding chemicals to flush it away...Current customers include the OMSI Maker Faire, Pickathon and Willamette Week's Beer Pro/Am." – Oregon Business Magazine (2017)
• "PICKATHON, HAPPY VALLEY the Now two decades old, this most Oregonian and, specifically, Portlandish of festivals is charmingly unabashed about reflecting its environment - a hip, eco-minded, uncrowded, smallscale, indie-inflected late summer gathering spread around a farm just outside the city." – The Daily Telegraph 2018
• "Pickathon is an admirably decentered, medium-size festival with an emphasis on communal, progressive values — from the bands, which all play twice, a welcome festival rarity (and some of which camp out, too), to the sustainability-minded dining options, to the quirks particular to the earthy Pacific Northwest (craft beers, washing stations with free Dr. Bronner’s soap, $30 for 30 minutes of acupuncture)... The festival has eliminated single-use cups.... Food was served on reusable dishes..." – The New York Times (2014) [1]
• "With a zero-waste ethos, the Pickathon festival combines art, architecture, food and music. Its Treeline Stage is designed annually by architecture students using sustainable materials (last year’s stage was later used to build homeless shelters). This year, the lineup includes Nathaniel Rateliff and the Night Sweats, Phil Lesh, and The Preservation Hall Jazz Band, and will be bracketed by morning yoga, late-night dance parties and a street art showcase." – The New York Times (2019) [2]
• "It [the Big Ears Festival] is not the only putatively free-form or outsider-music festival in the United States — not even close. (Hello, Boomslang; hello, Pickathon; hello, Neon Marshmallow; et cetera.)" – The New York Times (2014) [3]

So that's ten sources, two of which only namecheck the festival as an example, and four of them mention the something about eco-friendly decisions. The music gets more attention, but the sustainability is a close second. I therefore think the article ought to have a couple of paragraphs about this.

That said, I'm not sure that "pay a fee to use" is the right wording here. A wine-themed art festival near me does something similar, and people call it "buying a souvenir glass". If you pay for something and get to keep it, then in plain old English, that's called "buying", regardless of how the payment is made. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing:, where are you getting that it's the "number of sources"? Recently, a family restaurant chain Shari's Cafe & Pies abruptly closed all the stores in Oregon abruptly and a bunch of local outlets are parroting more or less the same thing, although I don't see the justification of that to cover pretty much everything talked about in the closing notice because it's covered by a dozen outlets and devote much of the article to the closure. The depth of coverage in (https://archive.nytimes.com/artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/popcast-parsing-big-ears/?searchResultPosition=7) New York Times you named is so thin there's no way to really use it as a source.Graywalls (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm also confused about the NYT suggestion, the only words in the article are "Hello Pickathon". What would be the purpose of using that source? I haven't checked the others that WhatamIdoing kindly provided, when I find a moment or two will have a look. Netherzone (talk) 19:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like neither of you are reading the sources. First, I linked to three (3) different NYT articles in two (2) different years. Second, I posted direct quotations from all 10 of these sources, so if you aren't finding the words I quoted on this page, you're not looking at the sources. The last in the list is one of the two that I said amounted to no more than a namecheck. The information I get from this particular source is:

• Not every source that mentions Pickathon thinks their eco-friendly nature is the most important point to mention
• Pickathon is one of multiple "putatively free-form or outsider-music festival[s] in the United States".

The 2014 NYT article connected with the slideshow (login to Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library first and then try this link) is 393 words long, which is a respectable length for a news article.

Graywalls, when the goal is Wikipedia:Balancing aspects (part of NPOV), you need to know if something is commonly said about the subject. That means considering whether lots of sources say something. If a large fraction of sources say the subject is eco-friendly, even when they aren't saying much else about the subject, then the Wikipedia article should say something about that characteristic, too. By contrast, if nearly all the sources don't mention that at all, but one source goes into depth about it, then it might not be worth mentioning, or else the mention should be brief. It's not important if Ultimate Sustainability Eco-Friendly Niche Magazine writes a feature-length article saying they're eco-friendly. It does matter when a large fraction of sources mention that characteristic.

On the off chance that you've been thinking about the WP:CORPDEPTH concept, that's a question for whether the subject gets an article at all. Once the subject has an article, the rule is that Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists, and the content is determined by NPOV, particularly DUE for viewpoints and BALASP for facts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The current wording on dishware piece suggests that patrons would need to buy plates whenever they want to eat (which would be LESS sustainable) or a PITA (if expected to wash them and carry them around). This is not the case. The price covers dishwashing service and does not require patrons to either clean their own dishes or carry them around. This was clearly stated in two sentences in an earlier edit. Monkeywire (talk) 17:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

P.S. I am sorry for overstepping my boundaries on Pickathon. I crossed a line into promotion. I'm pressing on this particular issue because it's an example of someone successfully addressing the single-use problem... it's applicable not only for festivals but weekly urban events such as Smorgasburg, where public parks and spaces are taken over by food trucks or huge farmers markets. A token system could conceivably be adapted by many zoos, amusement parks, etc. Monkeywire (talk) 17:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Apples and oranges. Smorgasburg is not a festival. If you feel a sense of urgency about this, and I think you do, which I respect, you might want to consider contacting the organizers or Smorgasburg, and sharing your suggestion with them. Respectfully, WP is not the right place to advocate for token systems. It's an encyclopedia. I don't mean to diminish your good ideas, but I'm not sure that you understand the purpose of an encyclopedia. Netherzone (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

As explained in my long post in the section below, these are details that belong in the Festival Guide, or on the festival's website, or in reviews of the festival or on social media or in off-media advertising. In a nutshell, basically customers buy the plates and utensils and can keep them, instead of bringing their own. It does not matter if they are "branded" with Pickathon's name or logo, or if someone else washes the dishes. That is trivia. Encyclopedia articles are not an indiscriminate collection of information, nor do they include every single factoid about a subject. On encyclopedic content: Information should not be included solely because it is true or useful. An article should not be a complete presentation of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Readers can easily click on the Festival's website, or on the citations for more information. As to the "free water", yes drinking water is free, however shower water is not free. Both of these are also trivial content better suited to the Festival Guide. Netherzone (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a event promoting guidebook. WP:NOTPRICES discourages talking about product price and availability, which includes amenities. article should not include product pricing or availability information, and highlighting something as "free" counts as a price. Not one bit of the inserted contents was about the expensiveness of the ticket or parking. The prices are shared in KOIN https://www.koin.com/local/clackamas-county/could-pickathon-2023-be-the-festivals-last/. Rattling off free amenities that organizers want to highlight is a form of promotionalism. Graywalls (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes there is no practical difference between "the objective facts" and "facts which reflect well on the subject", aka "promotionalism". We don't ban saying that things are free; in fact, we have thousands of articles describing certain subjects as being free, e.g., everything in Category:Free goods and services.

What concerns me about the free water is that very few sources mention it. That suggests to me that it's not necessary to include it in the article at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion moved from Netherzone's talk

Moved from User Talk:Netherzone

Can you give feedback on this? Special:Contributions/Monkeywire and Pickathon. They're denying COI, but I'm not really convinced given the article's history... It's following the pattern of the one we know very well. Trying to restore same type of promo contents and hunting sources to go around what they want to say. Also courtesy ping to @Axad12:. Graywalls (talk) 15:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls, If there is off-wiki communications occurring re: the photos, it is doubtful that the email discussions were only about the images themselves. It would stand to reason that the festival reps that were contacted would communicate their preferences and suggestions for the article - in particular to diminish the accident/deaths, and to bolster the popularity. The article still has a promotional tone even after the recent clean up - it's written like PR piece. I think you are correct that there is a COI going on, but I don't see enough evidence to conclude that it is UPE, Monkeywire seems like a fan. Would you like me to take a pass at doing additional clean up? Netherzone (talk) 15:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're making some incorrect assumptions. I've contacted a few folks off wiki over the years, including subjects of articles, and I've never gotten any feedback on "their preferences and suggestions for the article" beyond the question(s) I've directly asked, plus once pointing out a simple factual error. In my own experience, an e-mail message has never resulted in unsolicited PR requests.

"Promotional tone" is a subjective viewpoint. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Also some of the sources are not so good, like Vice and others that are being flagged as "orange" or "yellow" with the citation quality tool I use. Netherzone (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

They're slowly re-introducing contents added by throwaway Special:Contributions/Bigupbigdown... which was actually purged by Materialscientist at the time, but reverted back on. More independent third party input and edits from outside editors is always useful :) Graywalls (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you my friends for copying me in here. I am always happy to pitch in when I can.

I'm about to pack up for the day and have recently been feeling somewhat frazzled after inadvertently getting myself involved in this [4] and this [5] after my heavy involvement in a contentious long thread at COIN.

I will hope to be of use to you later in the week.

Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Have a nice rest from the drama, Axad12. Netherzone (talk) 15:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls, I've done some clean up of the tone, trivia, and PR/promo, as well as removing some of the low quality sources. One of the clues that seems COI is the repetive use of "Pickathon" rather than referring to it as "the festival" or the "event" - this is a strategy used by some SEO/black hat firms to get more hits on Google or for something to rise to the top of a search. Cleaned that up too. Netherzone (talk) 16:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls, did you see this[6] - it seems UPE-ish. Netherzone (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

And this Caroline Girvan by the same editor. Netherzone (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if this has been noted yet...

User Monkeywire claims to have no association with either of their 2 recent preoccupations, Pickathon and Hoffman Construction Company. However, a Google search of the 2 terms indicates that the latter entity sponsors the former in some capacity. Both are based in Portland OR, but surely that still constitutes quite a coincidence - especially as the edits to both articles are not NPOV. Axad12 (talk) 20:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

When editing the Wiki Pick page yesterday and getting info from the Pickathon website, I saw Hoffman Construction, looked them up, and made what I considered to be copyedits on that site. I (stupidly) removed the NPOV tag separately but did not dispute its reversal. I was also genuinely curious why the projects list was unacceptable, though I also didn't bother to look at its cited sources. Monkeywire (talk) 20:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered maybe making some copyedits to the article on Gaslighting? Axad12 (talk) 21:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Monkeywire it's the external communication (noted in their edit summaries) on Commons that's the most suspicious. I've come across many PR editors who will get permission to use image for Wikipedia page purposes, but when asked to get permission to get the copyright owner to irreversibly release it under Creative Commons, it often gets turned down. Graywalls (talk) 21:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You've gotta be kidding me. I spent many days trying to get permission to use historic images for those pages. It took an insane amount of my time...and for PR? Ha, I wish!

I'm done with Wikipedia. I've put in a good-faith effort here since starting in June but am realizing why more women aren't on here. Monkeywire (talk) 21:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls I don't understand how Bob Ingersoll could have taken those photos, since they depict him, and these were the days long before selfie culture, plus his hands are full of chimpanzee. So who actually is the author/creator of the photos? Were they also contacted for "permissions"? Even if Monkeywire contacted Ingersoll (they'd have to submit such evidence to VRT), it would be still be unclear if he actually owns the copyrights and would have the authority to release them with an appropriate license. Netherzone (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe his romantic partner is the photographer and he says he holds the copyright. Similar photos and video of him have been licensed via him in a number of primate books and in the Nim documentary. I made it clear that he'd need to put it in the public domain, and apparently a number of his images are under CC licenses in a new book he published that I don't have.

I'm going to stop responding to your questions now. It's exhausting defending against bad-faith arguments and personal attacks, and I think an honest reading of my edit history would reveal to any reasonable human being than I edit in good faith with and eye toward building Wikipedia as an open, public resource. Monkeywire (talk) 22:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=841474731302660&id=100063204219847&_rdr indeed... Graywalls (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• 19:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC) over at Commons: Northwestbornandraised uploaded File:Woods-Saturday-Valerie June-Brud Giles-scaled.jpg

That's an image that was downloaded off the festival's website.

• 19:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC) IP edit from Galway, County Galway, Ireland

While I can't be certain if the above two is connected, it sure seems odd someone's uploading the identical photo from the festival's page, then a minute later, someone uploads it logged out from Ireland.

Monkeywire edits:

Special:Diff/1252718282 "As an outside reader with no expertise in architecture, Hoffman, or the Pacific NW

Special:Diff/1252746113 "I am a huge fan of Pickathon and have attended 3x as a music fan

So many things that don't make sense. Interesting how Monekywire didn't simply just upload images they took at the festival as a fan.. someone who's been there not once, but three times. Graywalls (talk) 21:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

This is getting comical. I need to explain why I didn't upload personal photos from Pickathon? How about because my personal photos suck? I never claimed to be a photographer. And what is that crazy stuff about Ireland? I made the Caroline Girwan page because I liked her weightlifting workouts, she had over a million followers, and women in general are under-represented here (and in weightlifting) Monkeywire (talk) 21:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Did you notice the edit summary to this edit [7] earlier today, removing one of your posts and asking you not to post here again? I'm not sure that anybody here is particularly interested in your running commentary of self-justification. You clearly have a promotional agenda in relation to some article subjects where you have undeclared connections. Axad12 (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're making inappropriate assumptions here. It's easy to dismiss other people's personal interest areas as "undeclared connections", but you're basically running down an editor because it's impossible to prove a negative. We had a conversation about this just six weeks ago: anyone can make accusations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The evidence is in the promotional edits.

At COIN you accused me, baselessly, of being an WP:SPA. Consequently I'm genuinely not convinced that you're in a position to accuse me of making 'inappropriate assumptions'.

Next, I'll be accused of having an undeclared CoI in relation to the Hippopotamus Defence, on the basis that I wrote almost the entirety of the main article text. Axad12 (talk) 23:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

No, the "evidence" is in edits that you personally – based on your own values, beliefs and experiences – perceive as promotional. Your personal perception is not proof of reality. The editor has self-declared (=opposite of undeclared) being a fan. Enthusiastic fans sometimes make edits that seem promotional to non-fans, but enthusiasm is not evidence of an "undeclared connection" or "having a promotional agenda". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

In fairness, it is not only my opinion that the material is promotional. Two other editors (Graywalls and Netherzone) have also recorded the same opinion above. Also, as has been observed elsewhere in this thread, there is an amount of further circumstantial evidence suggesting a promotional agenda.

Furthermore, the user has already been blocked by Star Mississippi from directly editing the article, because (according to the block note) they have edit warred and because your edits give the feel of someone who is here to promote the event rather than edit it neutrally.

So that makes 4 editors, including 1 admin who took action on the matter, who agree in relation to the promotional nature of the edits, which is a consensus (based on opinion).

If we were to simply accept the denials of COI made by editors who edit promotionally then the encyclopaedia would have a serious problem.

So, arguing that it is a 'personal perception' is rather akin to denying the validity of the Olympic 100 meters record on the basis that Einstein observed that time is relative to the observer. Nothing is ultimately proof of reality, so let us not wander into philosophical speculation or sophistry. Axad12 (talk) 07:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

To expand on the general point, ultimately I find it rather difficult to take comments such as the following at face value: When editing the Wiki Pick[athon] page yesterday and getting info from the Pickathon website, I saw Hoffman Construction, looked them up, and made what I considered to be copyedits on that site. I (stupidly) removed the NPOV tag separately.

Given that copyedits could not conceivably have had a bearing on NPOV, and also that the unjustified removal of tags by that user was not simply a feature of that article, but also of Pickathon, and that properly sourced adverse material had been removed from both articles and apparently promotional material added, evidently some kind of value judgement has to be made at some point. That is all the more the case when there is a demonstrable financial link between the two article subjects.

Also, despite Monkeywire's suggestion, the following removal (shown in bold within square brackets) was not simply a copyedit (as it was incorrectly described in their edit summary [8] and also above): Hoffman Construction was issued a warning by the City of Portland in September 2020 for having utilized a subcontractor which obtained women-owned status fraudulently [so they can be awarded jobs as a subcontractor on Portland city government projects under a program designed to help disadvantaged business].

The idea, as expressed by Monkeywire that "Promotional tone" is a subjective viewpoint is ultimately true, but that does not prevent action from being taken based on reasonable concerns. Users whose edits display these kind of issues, and who persist after it has been pointed out, will inevitably face suggestions that they have a conflict of interest. Axad12 (talk) 08:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:VICE is flagged by some scripts because RSP lists it as "no consensus". If memory serves, it's generally accepted for music/arts/culture but some editors object to its politics coverage. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Graywalls, for moving this from my user talk to here, where the discussion belongs. Editors, let's try to keep it on point, meaning discussing ways to improve the encyclopedia rather than getting into personal disputes, if you don't mind. I think that will help us to move forward. We all agree that the music festival is notable, so that is not a concern whatsoever.

The article already has numerous reliable and verifiable newspaper sources to work from; additionally @WhatamIdoing has kindly brought additional sources above; thank you for doing that research. I wanted to say, that I strongly believe we should use the best sources possible, and there are plenty. To my way of thinking, VICE is a subpar source when there are so many other superior sources to back up the information to which VICE was sourced. It was not necessary, and to my mind, the article was headed directly into ref-bomb territory. Note that my edit summary when I removed it was "not a very good source", I did not say it was poor or deprecated. It was unnecessary, which informed my action to remove it. It was not a controversial removal. The article topic is a music festival and it also addresses the company/corporation by the same name. Because of this hybrid quality, I felt that using the very best possible available sources was good encyclopedic practice. Rather than bicker about VICE could we please focus on improvements.

My thoughts on the article when I first read it were aligned with @Axad12 and @Graywalls that it read promotionally. I am allowed to have that subjective viewpoint and it is grounded in my editorial experience here, and prior to that, from when I worked in the advertising industry in NYC many years ago. While advertising strategies have changed, I have a pretty good nose for PR, promo, native advertising, outright advertising copywriting, press releases and covert advertising. And here on WP I usually can distinguish some of the subtleties between COI, UPE, fancruft and boosterism. In this case, the article was teetering between COI and fancruft.

An encyclopedia does not need articles that are indiscriminate collections of information, and things like childcare, water bottles, shuttle busses, free bike parking and other such "services" that many, many festivals throughout the world have; these are superfluous details for an encyclopedia article. They are perfectly suited for Pickathon's website, or social media, or in off-wiki advertisements for the festival, or in reviews of the festival but not in an encyclopedia article. Especially when WP already has a problem with promotional and self-promotional editing on current music subjects. All one needs to do is look at the stream of new articles flowing into AFC and NPP to understand that promotional editing (including COI and UPE) is a vast and widespread issue.

Sorry this is so long, folks, please forgive me for the wall of text! Netherzone (talk) 15:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

About things like childcare, water bottles, shuttle busses, free bike parking and other such "services" that many, many festivals throughout the world have: Can you name five that have childcare? Actual childcare, not just a play area where the parents can watch their kids. I can't. The website for Newport Folk Festival doesn't mention childcare. Big Ears Festival doesn't mention childcare. Bonnaroo doesn't. I checked half a dozen festival websites. None of them mention childcare, and only one mentioned a separate play area for kids. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)