Talk:Northern Thai language

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The reason that Northern Thai people consider Yuan to be pejorative is that they don't know what it means. They confuse it with the now-pejorative term for the Vietnamese, which is a homophone, though the two are spelled differently. In point of fact, the Northern Thai (khon mueang, whatever) never referred to themselves as Yuan or Tai Yuan. The term is a purely literary one, derived from the Pali word Yavana, which in turn is derived from the Greek Ionia. In the original Pali usage Yavana referred to (1) speakers of the Greek language, and (2) the Greco-Bactrian kingdom in what is today Afghanistan/Pakistan. The name was later applied to the Chiang Mai region in the Pali-language chronicles (such as the Camadevivamsa) as part of a general trend to re-map the classical world of Indic Buddhism onto southeast Asia.

--Mrrhum 22:10, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Any Fluent Speakers of Northern Thai Here on WP?Edit

Are there any Fluent Speakers of Northern Thai here on WP? I'd love to see this article expanded to resemble the "Isan Thai" and "Standard Thai" pages. I'd also like to see an article on the tua mueang script.--WilliamThweatt 03:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm semi-fluent in Northern Thai in that I've heard my mother and family members speak it often. (Thus, I've only been introduced to the spoken aspects. I have no clue about the written language, except that I've seen it written on temple signs and have mistaken it for Laos.) I know that students in Chiang Mai learn a few Northern words in school, although mainstream (central) Thai is officially taught.
I've expanded the article to include vocabulary differences, but I don't want to take this article the wrong way. I may be treating it as a subset of Thai, rather than considering it a unique language or dialect (not more associated with either Thai or Laos).
Wikky Horse 09:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to make at least a reference to the dialect spoken around Pitsanulok ans Sukothai which is half way between Central Thai and Northern Thai with even some influence of Ysaan words. Local people have a name for their dialect but i forgot how is it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Front or back vowel?Edit

Does anyone know which of the open vowels /a/ in คำเมือง front [a] or back [ɑ]? I changed the transcriptions so they're consistent with the Thai script page. Also, how do you add a macron to "ɑ" to make it a middle tone? We can replace the "˧" tone symbols. Wikky Horse (talk) 01:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

They're not really front or back. In this very common case, the rule is to use /a/. Now, you might want to argue that the short vowel is actually slightly higher, [ɐ], but that should be a sourced aside. For phonemes, we should just keep to /a/ v. /aː/. RichardW57 (talk) 01:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Thai YuanEdit

The tern Thai Yuan is considered pejorative, but I've yet to find a published source to state specifically why. One may get a sense of why from the article on the Dali Kingdom. I added:

Historians, however, relate that the "traitor" was the last king of Dali, himself, who first fought and then surrendered to the forces of Kublai Khan, to be spared and later appointed by Möngke Khan (also known as Mengu) as the region's first Native Chieftain.[1]

  1. ^ Du Yuting; Chen Lufan (1989). "Did Kublai Khan's Conquest of the Dali Kingdom Give Rise to the Mass Migration of the Thai People to the South?" (free). Journal of the Siam Society. Siam Heritage Trust. JSS Vol. 77.1c (digital): pp. 2–4. Retrieved March 17, 2013. ...Duan Xingzhi, the king of the Dali Kingdom, who originally showed resistance but later was willing to surrender, was bought over and made use of. As a result, the measures taken by the Mongolian aristocracy towards the king of the Dali Kingdom rapidly took effect. In 1255 and 1256 Duan Xingzhi was presented at court, offering Mengu ... maps of Yunnan and counsels about the vanquishing of the tribes who had not yet surrendered.... line feed character in |quote= at position 33 (help)CS1 maint: extra text (link)

Du Yuting; Chen Lufan (1989) give ample reason to surmise the last king of Dali was the first Thai Yuan, and that the term subsequently applied to native chieftains subservient to the Yuan dynasty. —Pawyilee (talk) 14:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Gedney BoxEdit

We ought to include a Gedney box. Should it go under 'Tones' or 'Similar Words'? If we put it under 'similar words' we can compare and contrast the Siamese and Northern Thai tones. There are two different categories of tone differences - regular differences and irregular differences such as Siamese หญิง v. Northern Thai ญิง. In this particular case, Lao has both forms! RichardW57 (talk) 01:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I put the potentially final version in today. I put it in under 'Similar Words', but I may shift it to the section on tones. The applicability to Chiang Rai would benefit from such knowledgeable input, if only for some citations. RichardW57 (talk) 23:43, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Challenged Word KamnoetEdit

I'd like to see a source for the tones and meanings of the NT word /kàm.nɤ̀ːt/. There's no guarantee that the meanings in Khmer and Siamese have transferred to Northern Thai. I can't find the word in the Maefahlunang (MFL) dictionary of Udom Rungruengsi. We could always replace it by by the simplex form /kɤ̀ːt/ ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨯ. RichardW57 (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

/kàm.nɤ̀ːt/ is a noun in Northern Thai, although it can be used idiomatically as verb. I know this from my knowledge of Northern Thai (dialect spoken in Wang Nuea District, Lampang and Wiang Pa Pao District in Chiang Rai). I don't see it in the (rather rudimentary) dictionary I have on hand though, so all I have is OR right now. It would be fine to replace it with the verb form /kɤ̀ːt/, which is in my dictionary and would still represent a borrowing from Khmer. It's probably better anyway as it would be more easy for the reader to verify as well.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:52, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Challenged Word Khuan chaEdit

I can't find /xūan/ in my dictionaries. I'd like to see a source, or at least a check, that it isn't a mistake for /kūan/, which I can find. /kuan/ is the form that one would expect, but perhaps it has been replaced by the Siamese form. RichardW57 (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Thai-centrism of the articleEdit

Perhaps a de-thaification is needed for this article. It is called 'Northern Thai' but that is a neologism, and anachronistic. Since this is a language and not a dialect, it would be best to start with its own definition and history rather than seeing it as an offshoot of Central Thai. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 05:38, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

As most English-speakers who encounter Northern Thai will first encounter Thai, it is useful to have comparisons. The tone identification section on for Chiang Mai helps make sense of the Thai script spellings given. (Possibly we should have some Chiang Rai Tai script spellings as well - there is a very strong bias in the information around towards Chiang Mai speech.)

I've got some regional tone charts and other material to slot in which I'm working on at [User:RichardW57/NT draft] - it's a slow business doing the tables and footnotes, so I'm preparing the material on a temporarily separate page. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:39, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree and disagree (to OP). on a pure definition, "northern thai" is wrong. But language conveys a meaning. And because of the fact of countries and borders, it is intuitive to refer to a Thai-family language of an area inside Thailand, that is currently more influenced by modern Thai, and currently uses Thai script, as "northern thai language".
One might consider though to change the title and use various redirect links.
What should be the headline?? Kam Mueang?? Lanna? I know both of those, and I will only use kam mueang. but we are writing English here unfortunately, and no headline is clearer and easier to access in English than simply northern Thai. Jazi Zilber (talk) 12:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Lanna script not working apparently.Edit

I am not sure where the programming of it is located. and not sure why.

Did the whole "lana" script thing in wiki got deleted somehow? Or some changes in html coding?

anyhow, it now cannot show all those lana script letters along the whole article, which is a pity Jazi Zilber (talk) 12:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

It's still working in Firefox 64.0 on Ubuntu 16.04.3, so what have you changed? Or when did you last see it working? The text (in Unicode) is wrapped in {{script|Lana|...}}, and at least on my machine that expands to, for example:

<span style="font-family: 'A Tai Tham KH New', 'A Tai Tham KH', 'Tai Tham LN', 'Noto Sans Tai Tham', 'Lanna Alif', 'Lanna Unicode UI';">ᨣᩴᩤᨾᩮᩥᩬᨦ</span>

You may have a problem with the lack of a generic fallback if you have none of those fonts on your machine, and I think all those fonts have problems with Windows. A few years back, HarfBuzz switched to the Universal Script Engine, and that broke the Lanna fonts that used script-specific OpenType shaping. Firefox was already using HarfBuzz at the time.
Just possibly, you had been relying on a web font. Those don't seem to be be provided any more. --RichardW57 (talk) 16:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
on the following systems it is not working for me: (forgive me for not checking more extensively)
Windows 10 - Chrome latest. IE some version. Firefox some version.
Android latest - Chrome latest.
I am not sure I understand your webfont term. I am a programmer by history, but not updated..... Jazi Zilber (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. Has the script display previously worked without the user having to install fonts on their end? I don't remember. Anyway, you could add the relevant CSS to call the relevant Noto font to your user style sheet, e.g. as I have done here, to enable it for your user. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:33, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
What Tai Tham fonts do you have installed on your devices? Do you also get a massive failure with incubator:Wp/nod/User:RichardW57/sandbox. I ask for confirmation, as to my surprise that worked with iPhone and a fairly recent version of iOS. (I don't have access to the iPhone at the moment to check this page.) The font looked like Noto Sans Tai Tham.
A webfont is a font that may be automatically downloaded to enable the reading of a webpage. It is supposed only to be used for that page. For example, one test page [1] downloads the fonts it tests browsers against. (It also tests the browser's default font for Tai Tham.) --RichardW57 (talk) 17:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Can see it on my iPad now. iOS 12 or 11 relatively new device Jazi Zilber (talk) 14:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Return to "Northern Thai language" page.