Talk:Night of the Trains

Removal of irrelevant and misleading information

There were several articles there were pushed as "main article" for the operation that do not even mention it. In fact, it should be the other way around those articles, when they will have a section about the operation should have a link to this article as the main one. Mashkin (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Your disruptive deletions

Main articles: List of Irgun attacks, Lehi, and Palmach

See Also

• List of massacres committed prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war in Mandate Palestine

References

• In the Beginning, There Was Terror, Ronald Bleier, Americans for Middle East Understanding

First you try to delete main page links, you claim they don't even mention it. If they are not mentioning it they should be added, maybe even you should add them. The tree armed gangs that lead the operation are Irgun, Palmach, and Lehi(Stern Gang), so can you explain how that titles not related. Yet if you also List of Irgun attacks that is not good faith. Since this is an Irgun attack and the page is a devoted Irgun's attacks page.

Second List of massacres committed prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war in Mandate Palestine is directly related to the topic, that holds a record of both parties' massacres and public attacks

Third you even delete the main reference In the Beginning, There Was Terror, Ronald Bleier, Americans for Middle East Understanding from the page, and that shows no good faith at all. The reference is the best reference available on the issue until you add a better one. Without putting it as external link, you just try to delete it completely. Very bad edits. Kasaalan (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

As I wrote, even when the said articles will be "complete" they would not be the main articles for the event, but the other way around. The "massacres list" of course has nothing to do with the event. The Bleir article is (i) Not from an RS. (ii) Does not give any particular insight about the event. Stop being so disruptive and read a book about the period. Mashkin (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

"Since its establishment in 1967, AMEU has published 34 pamphlets in its Public Affairs Series." In the Beginning, There Was Terror, by: Ronald Bleier, July - August 2003, The Link - Volume 36, Issue 3. Good and reliable published printed source with clear and verifiable reference list, by an association that founded in 1967. Listed under UN NGO list therefore notable, gets review by Middle East Policy Journal of Blackwell Publishing therefore credible. Actually you are the one that trying to delete only reference of the article, according to your personal political thoughts. Kasaalan (talk) 22:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You trying to add official papers of an armed gang as a reference, "The Palmach - Its Warriors and Operation, Uri Brener, special edition for Palmach national convention, 1978", "Palmach: Plugot Hamahatz shel Hahaganah, 1941-1949 Meir Pa'il, Avraham Zohar and Azriel Ronen (Hebrew)", yet trying to delete In the Beginning, There Was Terror, Ronald Bleier, Americans for Middle East Understanding, Volume 36, Issue 3, the only reference that the main text relies on, since you don't like it. Kasaalan (talk) 22:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You are not being particulary helpful by repeated calling the Palmach "armed gang". The sources I provided are (i) Detailed and relevant to the issue at hand (ii) Published by a reputable press and considered scholarly. This of course does not mean that they are irrefutable, just that they are proper sources and ones you want to point the reader to. Mashkin (talk) 23:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I prefer a light weight term as armed gang, they are worse than that, as you know. Still you claim using their own papers for the article, yet not a criticizing one. You act POV. This is a reliable and informative printed source with references, but you try to delete it because you don't like the content of it. Kasaalan (talk) 15:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Relevant and Reliable Printed Information

In the Beginning, There Was Terror by Ronald Bleier, Americans for Middle East Understanding, July - August 2003, The Link - Volume 36, Issue 3

Dynamiting a Public Building

One of the most notorious examples of Jewish/Zionist terrorism in the post-war period 1945-1948, was the bombing of the King David Hotel on July 22, 1946. The bombing developed out of an atmosphere where the Zionists were enraged when the British Labor party’s sweeping victory in the summer of 1945 did nothing to liberalize the previous government’s policy on Jewish immigration. British insistence on maintaining their restrictive immigration policy led to the unification of the three major factions of the Jewish fighting forces into a United Resistance. The three forces comprised the Jewish Agency’s Haganah led by David Ben Gurion, the LEHI, the Stern Gang led by Nathan Yellin-Mor, and the Irgun led by Menachem Begin, who in his book “The Revolt” bragged that he was “Terrorist Number One.” At the end of October 1945, they formally agreed to cooperate on “a military struggle against British rule.” 5

Their joint attacks, including the Night of the Trains, The Night of the Airfields, the Night of the Bridges and other operations, were so successful that they led finally to forceful British retaliation. Immediately after the Night of the Bridges, June 17, 1947, British Army searches for terrorists were conducted, arrests were made and Jews were killed and injured in clashes. A much larger British operation that came to be known as “Black Sabbath” began two weeks later. Thousands of Jews were arrested. British troops ransacked the offices of the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem, seized important documents, arrested members of the Jewish Agency Executive, and carried out searches and arrests in many kibbutzim.

As a direct result of the Black Sabbath operation, the Haganah command decided on July 1 to conduct three operations against the British. The Palmach (the elite Haganah strike force) would carry out a raid on a British army camp to recover their weapons. The Irgun would blow up the King David Hotel where the offices of the Mandatory government and the British military command were located. (The LEHI task, blowing up the adjacent David Brothers building, was never carried out.)

Just at this moment came an appeal from Chaim Weizmann, President of the World Zionist Organization, urging that the armed struggle against the British be halted. As a result of his appeal, the supreme political committee decided “to accede to Weizmann’s request.” However, Moshe Sneh, the Haganah liaison with the Irgun and LEHI, strongly opposed the Weizmann request and did not inform Begin of the committee resolution but merely asked him to postpone the action.6

The King David Hotel was brought down by means of 50 kilos of explosives, placed beside supporting pillars in the hotel’s “La Regence” restaurant. Timers were placed for 30 minutes. After the bombers made their escape, telephone messages were placed to the hotel telephone operator and to the Palestine Post. The French Consulate, adjacent to the hotel was also warned to open its windows to prevent blast damage, which it did. 7 Some 25 minutes later, a terrific explosion destroyed the entire southern wing of the hotel— all seven stories. The official death toll was 91 dead: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews, and five others.

The printed source is good, reliable and verifiable. If you claim the info in it is false, first you have to prove it. Kasaalan (talk) 15:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

No criticism means, no balanced and neutral article, linking official Palmach site that attacked and bombed the railways is fine, yet you cannot remove criticizing sources in any way you like. Kasaalan (talk) 20:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)