Talk:Native American fashion

Native American Fashion

@Treetoes023: This article is mainly about Native American tribes (United States) so it makes little sense to move the article, especially without discussion.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 04:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@Oncamera: Okay, I reverted my move. – Treetoes023 (talk) 06:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Scope

I see that this was Indigenous fashion of the Americas before it was unilaterally moved. Do editors prefer to delete all the non-Native American content or change the article back? Yuchitown (talk) 17:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yuchitown I was the initial primary author of the article and have explained probably each time that a discussion has come up, that this is 1) not an article about North America or the US, 2) not an article about traditional Native clothing (except in as much as it informs high fashion design), 3) is an article about high fashion Indigenous designers in the Americas - all of them, 4) is an article about how Native motifs and traditions have influenced fashion design. I don't think there are enough Native fashion designers to break them out by various countries, but if that would solve this being a recurring issue then perhaps that should be done. I don't really have a strong opinion on what the name of it is as long as the scope remains intact because there are a lot of Indigenous fashion designers who are notable and this serves as an anchor article, so to speak, for them and their works to be highlighted. I truly cannot figure out why the name has been changed or discussed so many times, but it seems to be a big issue, because it happens every few years. SusunW (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

This article was always Native American fashion before being moved to that very long title by a novice user who ended up getting told to stop moving article titles because they felt Native American was somehow offensive. There's two discussions there, about merging the Wikiproject groups and removing Native American.[1]  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Throughout Wikipedia, Native American is almost always defined as Indigenous peoples of the United States, so that's likely where all the commentary/confusion comes from. Indigenous peoples of Canada are the main folks who do not want to be called Native American. If you all want to keep the scope to cover all Indigenous peoples of the Americas then it would seem that the name should reflect that, a la Visual arts of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas, Ceramics of Indigenous peoples of the Americas, Photography by Indigenous peoples of the Americas, etc. Yuchitown (talk) 19:12, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Alternately, if South America is outside the scope of this article, it could become Indigenous fashion of North America. Yuchitown (talk) 19:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I rather keep the current title and remove any outside the scope.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense, then the content from other countries could become a second, broader article. There's a lot of activity among Indigenous fashion designers in Colombia, Bolivia, and Brazil. Yuchitown (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I'm pretty sure the US is at the top of the list for fashion consumption of all countries, which Native designers are a part of, so that's why I think it should stay separated due to the high "success" rate and emerging designers in the field. I'm seeing more and more Native fashion shows and models in the US as each year goes by.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 20:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm assuming that by "remove" you don't mean simply deleting it from the article, but instead splitting the article into two focuses, US vs. the world? I would not be in favor of simply deleting the info. Too many hard hours of research to recreate the content would be lost. To me, it seems really weird to have the US split from Canada and Mexico (the other major countries in North America), but as I said, I don't feel strongly either way. I'm happy to defer to the expertise of the Wikiproject. SusunW (talk) 20:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Mexico or Canada are considered high fashion countries like Fashion in the United States. But they should have their own articles, even if they're stubs. The cultural influences are different and unique enough to warrant them being their own pages too.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 20:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't dare make a qualitative judgment about the relative merits or success of the Indigenous fashion designers from various countries; that's well outside Wikipedia's purview. I just wanted to find out what was going on here, since the article didn't match the title. No, I definitely wouldn't want to delete good content, User:SusunW, or undo your hard work. I can propose a proper split, so the content all goes to the proper places (and everything is crosslinked). Then folks can decide what to do. Yuchitown (talk) 20:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

The article isn't about fashion centers/countries either. London, Milan, Paris, US - where ever doesn't matter if an Indigenous designers' works have had success there. If an Indigenous Peruvian's designs took over the fashion scene in Berlin and we have RS that say that, why would we care if that place is or isn't a fashion center? It's about designers, plain and simple. It doesn't need to be complicated with a bunch of qualifiers, to my mind. Thanks Yuchitown. You understand me and my sometimes difficulties in communicating. I am always appreciative of our collaborations. SusunW (talk) 21:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

I propose that the material about fashion by Native Americans in the United States stay as Native American fashion, while the content about Indigenous peoples from outside the United States be split into a separate article called Indigenous fashion of the Americas, with extensive crosslinking. Yuchitown (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I support whatever position the majority supports. SusunW (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Support. Just based on a naming perspective that would make more sense since "Native American" typically refers to the Indigenous peoples of the United States. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment: If a new article is created as a result of this discussion, it should be considered for addition to the disambiguation page Native American clothing. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 07:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Done. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I'll make the split. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

My apologies that I haven't done this earlier. I've been slammed IRL. I could still do it in the future, but if you want to, that is greatly appreciated! Yuchitown (talk) 18:20, 4 December 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

No worries, Yuchitown; it's done. Also notifying @SusunW and TechnoSquirrel69.

1. I copied over 2 paragraphs from the lead as they seemed to make sense in both articles. I'm not an expert with this topic so someone else should review and make whatever changes (in both articles' leads) seem appropriate.
2. Make sure everything that should have been split out of this article has been split out. If not, and if you'd like me to make the split (to assure attribution), just ping me. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:43, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

To Do: I'm not sure about the Refs -which to delete and which to keep- in each article. As I don't want to make a mistake, I will leave the remainder of this task to others. cc: @SusunW, TechnoSquirrel69, and Yuchitown. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)