Talk:National Aeronaval Service

Nederland interceptor for 2017

Informations in french : http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/le-panama-sequipe-dintercepteurs L'amateur d'aéroplanes (talk) 11:01, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Panama infobox

to "Perform protection, surveillance, security and defense of Panama. The country may not have a standing army, but Naval and Air operation are a component of military forces. The fact that their aircraft [1] [2] [3] carry roundels puts in a military category. It’s a similar case to United States Coast Guard. - Even World Air Forces 2020 has them listed - They’re not quite like Costa Rica, there they do carry Police titles [4] - FOX 52 (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I think we should use LEA infobox instead of military unit infobox for SENAN, because of :

1. Refer to lead section of Template:Infobox military unit, which state A military unit infobox may be used to summarize information about an individual military unit or formation, such as a regiment or division. While Panama have abolished military in 1990, so SENAN is not military unit and it's defense responsibility didn't justify to categorize SENAN as military force. As it's primary role are in law enforcement, border control and border control.
2. Roundel or similar marking isn't exclusive to military aircraft. police, gendarmerie, coast guard, customs or other gov't agency aircraft may also have similar marking. Costa Rica's Air Vigilance Service also can seen with such marking.
3. IMO, United States Coast Guard should also use LEA infobox. While it is military branch, it is mainly performing maritime law enforcement role and only perform military role during wartime.

Ckfasdf (talk) 00:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok don't confuse emblems (sample) & seals (sample)- for roundels. And I don't to many police aircraft that are camouflaged. I think you're a bit confused on the concept of what is intended for the LEA template (ie L.A.P.D. - Fairfax County Police Department) - FOX 52 (talk) 05:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Roundel, emblem, or seals... they are all can be used for aircraft marking as seen on example above. and yes, there are not many police aircraft that camouflaged 1 2 3 but they dont justify to categorize it as military unit. Military unit infobox is for Military unit, where SENAN is not. SENAN role is as public security entity in the maritime, air, port and airport spheres throughout the national territory. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Edit: Forgot to address this point. I think it was you who misunderstood concept. LEA infobox is intended to be used for law enforcement agency. Police is law enforcement agency, but it is not the only law enforcement agency (see List of law enforcement agencies). Ckfasdf (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No you're using aircraft marking under broad stroke roundels or Military aircraft insignia more specifically is what is being referenced. And just to be more clearer Panama's aircraft are with roundel, camouflage & do NOT carry the Police titles. Also World Air Forces 2020 has them listed (which is reserved for armed forces from around the world). - FOX 52 (talk) 04:49, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Roundel is not always exclusive to armed forces (example : police, coast guard, border guard, customs). Even camouflaged aircraft, with no police marking, and with roundel do not guarantee that aircraft belong to armed force (example: border guard Russia here). WAF may categorize it as air force, however since Panama dont have military, it doesnt change the fact that it is not an air force. Also refer to its role SENAN is more into law enforcement agency. Btw, since it's may really going nowhere, So...I may ask other opinion on this matter. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:15, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Flightglobal also acknowledge that Panama dont have air force (source). For comparison, they also used to include Costa Rica on WAF. Ckfasdf (talk) 11:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, recent (2019-onwards) SENAN's aircrafts are spotted without roundels. For example : AN-140 (Oct 2017 - your example vs Jan 2020), AN-144 (Aug 2018 vs May 2020), AN-040 (Jul 2012 vs Oct 2019May 2020). Other example: AN-177 (May 2020,Aug 2019), AN-114&AN-117 (Feb 2020). So, you may be right.. roundel are supposed to be only used by military, and SENAN is just realized it in 2019. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

If no further objection/discussion, I will revert infobox back to LEA infobox. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:54, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

No you have failed to establish, the separation between law enforcement vs. Panama's defense, and which is more prevalent - FOX 52 (talk) 04:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, let's back to you arguments, why SENAN should be categorize as military and use military unit infobox:

• You said SENAN uses roundels (Military aircraft insignia).
  I have provide evidence that roundels are used by non-military aircraft, and evidence that SENAN seems to no longer use roundels starting 2019. So roundel/military insignia arguments cannot apply.
• You said Flightglobal listed Panama in "World Air Forces / WAF" (a compilation of air force inventory), but didn't listed Costa Rica (another country without military), So Panama considered to have "military".
  I have shown that Flightglobal said the one that Panama have is the remnants of the air force, but they still mention in WAF anyway, also Flightglobal also used to mentioned Costa Rica in WAF. Again, WAF arguments also cannot apply.
• You said SENAN roles in defense is more prevalent as it was mentioned in the lead section of article.
  I have provide you link to SENAN function that show 17 functions. 5 of 17 (4,6,7,13,14) is law enforcement related, 5 of 17 (5,9,10,11,12) is related to support other institution, 1 related to constitution, 1 related to public policies, 1 related to others function, 1 related to int'l cooperation, 1 related to search and rescue, 1 related to panama canal authority and only 1 related to defense.
  

You didn't refute my counter-arguments above. And yet, you still insist to categorize SENAN as military because defense role is more prevalent? How so? Ckfasdf (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Per article 1 and 2 of SENAN act, SENAN is police forces. Since one of your argument is only police force can use LEA infobox, so the infobox will be changed. Ckfasdf (talk) 04:58, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

On article 310 of Constitution of Panama, aside from prohibit Panama to have military force, it also explicitly stated that in the event of "External Aggression", Panama can establish temporary special police force (temporalmente servicios especiales de policía) for defense purpose. This implies that defense function is not under any branches of Public Force (SENAN, SENAFRONT, or PNP), but on "temporary special police force". Since "defense" argument to justify categorization as military also can not used, so the infobox will be changed. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on this discussion on my talk page. From my perspective, I'd suggest not worrying about whether the infobox is designed for articles on a military or a police force, but consider what best suits the content. Template:Infobox organization might work better than the police or military infoboxes given the unusual nature of this organisation. Nick-D (talk) 07:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment @Nick-D:, I have tried to use infobox organization (see my sandbox). It's was somewhat similar to LEA infobox, but I don't think it'll work better as it lacks some parameter specific to infobox military unit or LEA, such as |country=. I guess i'll go to WP:DRN Ckfasdf (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

You have a PDF that references the "National Border Service", this article is for the "National Aeronaval Service", so that will not suffice. - FOX 52 (talk) 05:31, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Please read carefully, that PDF consist of 3 laws: law no.7 for "National Aeronaval Service", law no.8 for "National Border Service", and law no.9 for security council. Ckfasdf (talk)

Its still basically the countries defense -Which yes includes drug interdiction ops, just like the USCG. They train with the US military units [5], [6] (not our local police Dept.) - cops don't throw to many grenades. Enforcement is part of their doctrine, but that goes hand and hand, with all of their other missions. (Which are conducted in a military manner) - FOX 52 (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

USCG is military unit because the US Code said so -> so military unit infobox used, meanwhile SENAN (and other branches Panamanian Public Forces) is police force because the law said so -> so LEA infobox should be used. As simple as that. Also, there is difference in Police with anglo-saxon model (commonly seen in the US) and Police with continental model (seen in europe and its former colony). It's not uncommon for law enforcement with continental model to have militarized nature; see Gendarmerie. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The USCG not a police force? that wasn't your postilion here (the precursor to the CG) - Don't change your argument to justify another. Your Gendarmerie point doesn't change the fact that those counties also have dedicated armed forces. - So yes the Gendarmerie could possible fall under a LEA box. - FOX 52 (talk) 01:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I never said USCG is or is not police force there, but I did said that it is law enforcement agency. Please note that Police force is law enforcement agency, but law enforcement agency is not always police force. And you missed my point, firstly police in the US and UK cannot be compared with most police on the rest of the world, as they only operated on local/regional level whereas most police forces are on national level. secondly, please see Militarization of police, so it's not really uncommon to see police/LEA to use military equipment. The consensus that was accepted on that page is to refer to its status (USCG -> military first). So, I am using the same logic here, which is to refer to its status, SENAN is police force specialized in air and naval operation (explicitly written on the first sentence of article 1 of the law). Ckfasdf (talk) 03:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The LEA box dose NOT have the parameters to meet the needs of this unit. And it's still follows more the just law enforcement - FOX 52 (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Such as? Isn't it the another way around military unit infobox do NOT have certain parameter for this agency. Why are you keep adding arbitrary standard on this infobox? Ckfasdf (talk) 06:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Because your box is erroneously matched for the service: (1) their roundel is placed in the "badge" entry - You've placed their racing stripe as their "logo" - you have "Facilities" subheading for their list of aircraft/boats, which makes no sense. - As opposed to the Milbox which used "Equipment" for a subheading. - FOX 52 (talk) 08:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

The same can be said for military unit infobox. Anyway, regarding your comments :

(1) Refer to Template:Infobox law enforcement agency, description of |patchcaption=,|logocaption=,|badgecaption=,|flagcaption= clearly said : "....This parameter and the corresponding image file name can be retyped to another useful image, for example overridden to "coat of arms"." So, there is no problem to use roundel/racing stripe/or any other insignia on that parameter.

(2) I don't think it's appropriate to complaint for usage of "Facilities" as subheading of list fixed assets (station, vehicles, boats, aircraft, etc) owned by that agency here, as the issue affected all other pages that use LEA infobox NOT specific to this page. You should suggest for revision of subheading title at Template:Infobox law enforcement agency. LEA infobox itself have specific parameter for aircrafts |aircraft1= and boats |boats1=. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

"Facilities" is a better word to describe their equipment, as opposed to the word "equipment"? - Given. Also per your source (Panama) "essentially a military transport service." - FOX 52 (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

No, I am saying that the issue of name of subheading is not specific to this page, but to Template:Infobox law enforcement agency as it affected other pages that uses this infobox (such as Los Angeles Police Department. On that page, cars, boats, helicopters, planes, dogs and horses are also listed under "Facilities" subheading). If you think the name of subheading is inappropriate, your are welcome to propose changes on LEA infobox. Again, since the issue is not specific to this page, it can't be used as argument for not use LEA infobox on this page. Ckfasdf (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Because this unit is more than the typical police force, the variety of roles they have is why it was originally placed in a milbox. (they don't have a badges) their equipment is more specific, than your typical police unit ei: cars, dogs, aircraft- FOX 52 (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually the topics that we discuss here (starting your edit dated 08:18, 25 June 2020) is about the name of subheading (named "Facilities"). So I guess, it's not a problem anymore since LAPD page also use "Facilities" subheading for their list of cars, boats, helicopters, planes, dogs and horses. And you don't have any problem with that. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

No because the article is about the air & maritime service which is specific to the unit. (Aircraft & boats only) - FOX 52 (talk) 01:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Isn't it double standard? "Facilities" subheading for LAPD is OK, but "Facilities" subheading for SENAN is not OK. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

No actually its a misuse of the word, if you expand the index, (LAPD) you'll see it's meant for the specific patrol areas. (which was its intended purpose) - but regardless its doesn't fit as the SENAN has more roles aside from LE. I understand English is not your first language, but your just not grasping the concept here. - FOX 52 (talk) 03:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

"Facilities" subheading on LAPD contains "Area" (parameter stationtype = Area | stations = {{collapsible list |title=21<ref name="LAPD Organizational Chart"/> | Central |..| Topanga}}), there is no problem with that. However, just below "Area" there is list of cars, boats, helicopters, planes, dogs and horses. Afterall, LEA infobox categorize stations, airbase, vehicle, boats, aircraft, animal under "Facilities" subheading. In case of SENAN, we can also use |stations= to list it's base/stations on the infobox. So, there is no issue with the parameter of LEA infobox. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@FOX 52: I created {{Infobox law enforcement unit}} that may be suitable for this article. If it was used only the shield image would be shown and not the roundels. The use of the Branch parameter with "Navy and Air force" in {{Infobox military unit}} is confusing while the new infobox has an Agency parameter that can have Panamanian Public Forces.--Melbguy05 (talk) 10:32, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Melbguy05: I disagree to use infobox law enforcement unit on this article for reason mentioned here. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:27, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

lead section

Refer to recent edit by FOX 52 on some area includes lead section. I'd like to discuss the wording to be used here. The table below is comparison of both me and FOX 52 proposal, with my comments.

Ckfasdf Proposal		FOX 52 Proposal
Wording Proposal	Comment	Wording Proposal	Comment
a branch of the Panamanian Public Forces responsible for carrying out maritime, aerial, port and airport police functions.	taken from the first sentence article 22 of the law, also quoted by other sources such as http://www.aeronaval.gob.pa/?op=funciones and RESDAL report The wording is concise and properly sourced.	a branch of the Panamanian Public Forces which is responsible for carrying out naval and air operations.	possible paraphrasing from ??? Focus on maritime and air ops and ignores functions at port and airport.
Its primary missions as stated in the law is to protect rights and freedoms of people, maintain public order, prevent and investigate crimes, and protect the air and maritime jurisdictional areas.	paraphrasing from the article 3 of the law mission is better to describe it's role as it's more general than forcing one functions as the agency's role	Its role is to perform protection, surveillance, security and defense of the air and maritime jurisdictional areas.	verbatim translation of function #2 of article 22 of the law, ignores other functions mentioned on that law.

So, which one is better? Ckfasdf (talk) 02:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The wording needs to flow, not to be duplicated lawyer lingo. Wikipedia is here to give readers a general overview of a topic, and we should avoid excessive amounts of redundant text- Also Ckfasdf do not use translated text directly, as translations don't always display proper (English) tense & sentence structure. FOX 52 (talk) 04:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I’d like to reiterate that the introductions are meant to be a brief overview - it need not be totally comprehensive. With that said, I’m inclined to support FOX 52’s wording. The law itself can be expounded upon in more detail in the text, but Fox’s wording is more appropriate for a lead that is meant to be an overview of the most important or notable functions. Garuda28 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Is it applies for both sentences? The wording of perform protection, surveillance, security and defense of the air and maritime jurisdictional areas. is also direct translation of the law. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm on the fence with this one. I really don't find @Ckfasdf:'s version as wordy or inaccurate as it does state that their mission includes port and airport police functions. The Panamanian Public Forces is interesting though. They kind of remind me of the Japan Self-Defense Forces which was originally established as a paramilitary/security force shortly after World War II, but the big difference is, that the JSDF evolved over the years and is now recognized as a military force, while the Panamanian Public Forces currently is not; they are recognized as a security force. So if there is a verifiable source of of significant involvement of SENAN in port and airport police functions, then I believe that it would okay to add that to the head sentence, but only if there is a verifiable source. I tried Googling SENAN about the exploits but came back with precious little. Neovu79 (talk) 07:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Per Garuda28's idea - good to expand details in the article ie: "Introduction section" - FOX 52 (talk) 07:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Neovu79: True, news/source of involvement of SENAN in port and airport police functions are scarce... but it's not non-existence, such as 1, 2, 3. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Be sure not to use translated text directly, as translations don't always display properly. As shown here- "is created as police forces and a permanent and civilian of component of the Public Forces attached to" that's a few too many "and"' / "of"' - FOX 52 (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

My proposal is stated on table above. So, I assume we are all OK to change the first sentence. How about the second sentence? Ckfasdf (talk) 11:52, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

No, just to be clear you can expand your details in the "Introduction section" leave the first lead paragraph as is. And again correct text above that i pointed out. FOX 52 (talk) 14:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ckfasdf: While you made valiant attempt we most definitely do NOT need a lawyers laundry list of laws for the article. - FOX 52 (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

As there is a consensus to use the LEA infobox on the Icelandic Coast Guard page, and considering the similarities between the Icelandic Coast Guard (ICG) and SENAN, it seems reasonable to apply the same approach to the SENAN page. Both organizations are somewhat militarized forces but not actual military entities, given that Iceland and Panama do not maintain standing armies. Additionally, the day-to-day missions of both the ICG and SENAN primarily revolve around maritime law enforcement and search and rescue operations. Given the limited interest from other editors on the SENAN page, it appears feasible to implement the consensus reached on the ICG page due to these shared characteristics. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)