Talk:Murder of Mellory Manning

I've partly updated but article still needs work

Due to some recent attention in NZ of the poor way FASD is treated in NZ, I heard about Fawcett and was shocked to find this article failed to mention the charge against him being dismissed. I dealt with this as best as I could feeling I had done an okay job. However after doing so I realised that an earlier section discuss her murder treating Fawcett's involvement as factual. With the appeal and dismissal, we clearly can no longer do so.

While I could have just removed his name, it looked to me like a lot of that details wasn't based on physical or otherwise undisputed evidence but instead simply based on what Fawcett told police. Since Fawcett's interviews are now considered unreliable I don't think they're very useful for this article. At best, perhaps we can very briefly mention stuff he said but I'm unconvinced even that is useful.

In any case, until someone can be bothered to do the work, I feel the best solution is simply to remove anything that appears to originate from what Fawcett told police and so I removed everything from after Manning was last picked up [1]. I imagine some stuff about what happened to Fawcett may be clear from other evidence so it's likely we can expand the section a bit but I'm not sure how much. Note it's also possible that some other parts incorrectly present what Fawcett told police as factual, I didn't notice anything but didn't look that carefully.

One difficulty is I suspect at the moment there are very few good sources. Most of the sources were likely written at a time when what Fawcett said was being treated as true or likely true. According to the sources, Fawcett was first interviewed on 10 August 2009 so I think we can treat any sources before then as fine. But any sources from then until the dismissal need to be treated with caution IMO. Although Fawcett wasn't charged until 2012, it seems possible that some of what was told to the media was based on statements made by Fawcett which both accepted as true even though they may not be. It's even possible some details which might be correct may have to be excluded until a source come about which looks carefully at what we know or can reasonably suspect and what may be misinformation given the limits of WP:OR etc.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

One thing which could be added is how she was killed. With my removal, the metal pole & knife wounds etc stuff are only mentioned in the infobox and lead which isn't good writing. But while this stuff must be undisputed based on the physical evidence I wasn't sure how to re-incorporate it so I've left it be. It's possible it might be better to move into the investigation section as findings from an autopsy. Nil Einne (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Change of name in title

Sources indicate her name is spelt Mellory not Mallory. Can someone change that please. Clooless (talk) 08:55, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Early reliable sources used the "Mallory" spelling[2][3][4], although this seems to have been corrected to "Mellory" as the case dragged on. I've created a Move discussion below. Muzilon (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Who is the subject of this article?

This article could be about the murder of Mellory Manning -although I'm not clear why it is so notable that it deserves its own page. Most murders in NZ and anywhere else in the world do not warrant their own page in WP.

I am more inclined to think the name of the article should be titled The wrongful conviction of Mauha Fawcett - similar to the Wrongful conviction of Alan Hall. Clooless (talk) 09:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The case does appear to have been the subject of WP:SIGCOV in scholarly books and journals. Muzilon (talk) 05:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is consensus to move the page to the correct name but no consensus concerning the “Killing of…” raised by 162etc. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 14:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

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Murder of Mallory Manning → Murder of Mellory Manning – Majority of reliable sources now spell victim's name as Mellory (rather than "Mallory"). Muzilon (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 07:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 07:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Mauha Fawcett's murder conviction was overturned, and the charges against him were subsequently dropped. Per WP:DEATHS, the better title may be "Killing of". 162 etc. (talk) 01:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  The flow-chart given at WP:DEATHS is a Wikipedia essay rather than a policy. Reliable sources are still referring to her death as "murder" or "unsolved murder".[5][6][7][8] (Cf. Murder of Harvey and Jeannette Crewe, which is called "Murder of" even though the conviction was later overturned and the homicide is currently classified as unsolved.) Muzilon (talk) 07:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Muzilon There are plenty of comparable articles, where the label of “murder” hasn’t been considered (or re-considered) against a lack of conviction. In cases I have seen in recent years, an RM often leads to following the guidance at DEATHS and removing the label of murder. It may just be that the Crewe murders article needs its own RM, given that the question of “murder” being a crime was never raised at the last one. — HTGS (talk) 07:38, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  What would you propose re Bain family murders? Muzilon (talk) 07:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  I have for a long time now left that one alone because I have mixed feelings there, tbh. And similarly here, I do prefer “killing”, but I am not that bothered by “murder”. — HTGS (talk) 08:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  I'd personally keep all of these examples at "murder" even though the murderer is as yet unknown. What we can't do is name any person as the actual murderer until there's a Court verdict.Daveosaurus (talk) 06:46, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

  If the murderer is unknown then, on some level, the act itself is unknown. “Bill murdered Sally” is not the same as “Bill killed Sally”. — HTGS (talk) 06:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, ealand Wikipedians' notice board, WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/Sex work task force, WikiProject Biography, and WikiProject Women have been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 07:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting this to establish a consensus. Reading Beans 07:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Mellory at least; seems uncontroversial. No reason the nature of her death can’t be discussed as a separate issue if we don’t have clear consensus for it now. And although I do not support DEATHS as iron law, I do support the application of it here, per 162’s comment. — HTGS (talk) 07:24, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Support Mellory per HTGS. Not opposed to changing the rest of the title in principle but I think that doesn't need to be settled for the victim's name to be updated. Turnagra (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.