Talk:Molokan

Introduction

The Molokans (Russian: Молока́не) are a "Biblically-centered" sectarian religious movement

To me, this phrase has a clearly anti-Molokan bias, and is therefore unfit for a serious encyclopedia entry. Rephrase.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.216.146.55 (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Done. --Orange Mike 21:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mordvins

Dalmatov carried this sectarian belief into Moscow, where a group of sojourners from northern Russia (near the Finnish border), which were Mordvins, heard his message of spirit and truth and embraced it.

Something is fishy here. Mordvins don't live near Finnish border. Where does all this text come from? mikka (t) 02:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Wheeling

Dalmatov was later martyred by Orthodox priests in a monastery prison by being placed upon a device in which two large wooden wheels with iron spikes would spin in opposite directions thereby pulling the individual’s body apart from the inside out.

Check Wikipedia's article on "wheeling" as a method torture and execution. This lurid description given "wooden wheels with iron spikes", is taken from "Lives of Saints", and repeated in Rudometkin's writings. All we do actually know is that Dalmatov was tortured and executed by wheeling, very likely done in the conventional manner, since that was in the habit during Ivan the Terrible's time. Ordinary wagon wheels were easy to obtain, fanciful "wooden wheels with iron spikes" would have been too costly and outlandish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.134 (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

sounds like this editor is a Molokan

I don't usually get involved with religeous articles, but stick to political ones. I was wiki-link serfing and happened on this one. I thought it looked like it was written by a pro-Molokan or a Molokan. I've never even heard of Molokan til now, but I couldn't resist challenging this article for its objectivity. No wonder it has unbalanced template at its top. If some of it is to stand, then it must have additional language like: according to 'bla bla' the Molokans did whatever. Or according to Molokans or Molokans believe 'so and so' prophesied this or that. Sorry, I'll be more specific as the dialouge continues. Neutral nobody 04:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

looooool.. ??????? He foresaw the prophecy and thus he walked to mount ararat (or whatever)?????? What is this?????? It is fishy alright, and that's an understatement :)) Baristarim 21:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Who better to know and understand the history of the Molokans than a Molokan? All this talk of objectivity is nonsense. All that has been written thus far is essentially correct. I would know, as I am a full blooded Molokan, and have had the priviledge of being able to talk with very old Molokan men who lived through some of the toughest times leaving Russia during the beginning of the fall of the iron curtain. There is actually far more horrific stuff that happened, and (what?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.124.190 (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

Blehhh

"The message of truth blah blah" This article has an irky stench of partiality. All religions claim that they have the truth. Stick to the facts that can be prouved, and if you cant, just dont write anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.115.27 (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

Most of what is written is true, true to the extent that after a couple of hundred years and not much formal history, the tellings of old men can somtimes be skewed. However as a Mordovian Molokan I can tell you that most of it can be close to the truth, as I have never researched or visited this site or any other site about Molokans or Mordovian Molokans before but yet have the knowings of all the information in it, all from my grandparents who were told by their grandparents etc. So before critising the information about my people ask yourdelf how much you know about yours. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.45.75.48 (talk) 07:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC).

Molokan Photos

I am a Molokan, and have many Molokan photos, but I do not know how to put the photos on the article. If anyone could help me, I would appreciate it very so much.

--Sammysk (talk) 02:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Great! The Milkwoman (talk) 10:43, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed work group

There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with this subject, among others, here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 17:37, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! The Milkwoman (talk) 10:40, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Conscientious objectors

Someone who decides to work on this article will find interesting material on Molokans as conscientious objectors to U.S. military service during World War I. See: Christopher Capozzola, Uncle Sam Wants You: World War I and the Making of the Modern American Citizen (NY: Oxford University Press, 2008), 55ff.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 15:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like this inserted into the article. The Milkwoman (talk) 10:39, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Bogomil reference a bad idea

So little is known about the Bogomils and other Manichaen "heresies" that it is probably not helpful to suggest them as a common ancestor. They have been put forth as spiritual ancestors of everything from the Bosnian Church to the Albigensians, but this is primarily because so little is actually known about them. The link to the Molokans seems theologically and geographically flimsy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.145.229 (talk) 07:05, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Addressed. Good point! The Milkwoman (talk) 10:31, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

religious or ethnic group

After reading the article I'm a bit confused as to whether this is a religious group or an ethnic group. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:23, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Molokans are a religious group, which originated in the lands of the Russian Empire. Just like Roman Catholics originated in Rome. It is as strange to refer to Molokans as an ethnicity as it is to refer to Roman Catholics as an ethnicity, so I don't think it is right to use the term ethnicity in respect to religious groups. Anyone can be Molokan. The Milkwoman (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Naming conventions in USA

It seems autor have hard time to explain, and possibly did not understood well, Russian naming conventions. (ie Patronyms). I believe that references should be re-written. --Dalibor Đurić (talk) 17:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I have inserted a request for more references as per your request. The Milkwoman (talk) 10:37, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Wrong link corrected

Link to trojan horse and worm infected site from holidays removed. Put in place link to taxonomy instea190.79.153.106 (talk) 17:44, 4 December 2013 (UTC)d.

Thank you! The Milkwoman (talk) 10:38, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Keraites Milk and Molokans

The following sentence appears to be WP:OR as it is about the Keraites, and has no link to the Molokans:

Milk-drinking practice during these fasts was first sanctioned by the Nestorian Church in the 11th century in order to accommodate the conversion of some 200,000 Karaits, who lived on meat and milk, to Nestorian Christianity.

I propose to delete it.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Holy days

The list of holy days includes several days or times explained by Jewish roots, but does not mention the similarity to the traditional Byzantine calendar. For example, Sept. 1 is "indiction" in the Byzantine calendar. "Forgiveness Sunday" is identical (as far as is written) to the Byzantine "Forgiveness Sunday". Richardson mcphillips (talk) 11:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Pryguni [Прыгуны]

@1qaz2345: Is there a reason you keep removing the Russian word "Pryguni" [Прыгуны] from the article? It means "Jumpers". Given that this is a sect that originated in the Russian Empire, and the article uses lots of other non-English words for religious sects, it would seem sensible to have that word too.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Toddy1: Yes. However none Russian speakers should have the privilege of reading the article in their own language. There is not a problem with using the Russian transliterated label once and providing the Cyrillic counterpart. After that it should be in English for an English speaking audience and on an English Wikipedia page. We are using the label consistent with an article written by Dr. Eugene Clay at ASU, in his work titled [http://www.academia.edu/2457405/The_Woman_Clothed_in_the_Sun_Pacifism_and_Apocalyptic_Discourse_among_Russian_Spiritual_Christian_Molokan-Jumpers The Woman Clothed in the Sun Pacifism and Apocalyptic Discourse among Russian Spiritual Christian Molokan-Jumpers. 1qaz2345 (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Immigrants to Los Angeles in 1905-06

1qaz2345 removed the following sentence.

All Spiritual Christian who arrived in Los Angeles from Russia in 1905 and 1906 for simplicity were falsely relabeled simply as Molokan to sell them as ideal white colonists.

The source for this sentence appears to be the following web page: www.molokane.org Dukh-i-zhizniki in America, an update of Molokans in America (Berokoff, 1969) Chapter 2, by Andrei Conovaloff, since 2013, which says:

Demens chose the City of Los Angeles for them, and falsely renamed them "Molokans." These Spiritual Christians were escorted, personally diverted from Canada, to Los Angeles by Russian-American tycoon Piotr Alexeyevitch Dementiev (American name: Peter Demens) who provided jobs in his lumber yard and commercial laundry in Los Angeles; and, with his Russian friends, helped them negotiate farm colonies in Hawaii, Mexico and California; and explore many sites in North America.

It should be noted that this paragraph in the web page is an interpolation by Andrei Conovaloff. It does not appear in Chapter 2 of Berokoff's book Molokans in America.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:49, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Toddy1: Yes this is correct. The Molokan-Jumpers have always been labeled as "Molokan". Mr. Conovaloff is trying to rewrite history by citing his own interpolations on his own independent website as fact. There are government records and personal diary's written by members of the Molokan Jumpers written pre-1900s, they always refer to themselves as Molokans. The Molokan-Jumpers sect originated in 1833.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 1qaz2345 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

You have misunderstood the meaning of the paragraph you deleted.

The paragraph does not mean that the origin of the name "Molokan" was in 1905.

It means that some of the so-called "Molokan" people who arrived in Los Angeles in 1905-06, were not really "Molokan", but were of other Spiritual Christian groups.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Toddy1: My objection is with the statement that ALL Spiritual Christians in Los Angeles in 1905 were falsely relabeled as Molokan. This is simply not true. However Mr. Conovaloff in his use of the term Spiritual Christian, is really using the term as a synonym for the Molokan Jumpers in this context.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 1qaz2345 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

How do you know that Mr. Conovaloff was using the term "Spiritual Christian", "as a synonym for the Molokan Jumpers"?-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Toddy1: http://www.molokane.org/molokan/Berokoff/Chapter-2.htm Mr. Berokoff in his book, "Molokans in America" deals primarily with the Molokan Jumper faction, as well as other Molokan groups. You will see Mr. Conovaloff on his webpage (linked above) has relabeled every reference to Molokans and inserted "Spirtual Christians" in its place. Spiritual Christianity consists of many different sects, the term Molokan is not synonymous with Spiritual Christianity. 1qaz2345 (talk) 23:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

German Heufers

This connection with the Jumpers branch of Molokanism is extremely dubious. Please provide timeframe of supposed influence and evidence of direct involvement with the Molokan Jumpers in the early 1800's near and around the Crimea. For now the statement has been removed as it is unsourced. 1qaz2345 (talk) 04:55, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

"Jumpers"? Is there no better term? Do you mean those who jump pews during a church service, prone to extravagant emotional displays, jumping up & down & howling w/ "holy laughter"? Is there a group that calls itself jumpers? If not, then does this import a pejorative description from outsiders, like "holy rollers"? (PeacePeace (talk) 18:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC))

Molokans split from the Doukhobors! (not vice versa as Wikipedia erroneously states)

The Molokans split in 1779/80 from the Doukhobors be­cause they believed that the Doukho­bors ne­glec­ted the Bible in their belief that God had placed the Word directly into their hearts. The Mo­lo­kans, however, held the written Bible into the highest regard. The founder of the Molokans, Se­men M. Uklein, was a son-in-law of the Dou­kho­bor leader Ilarion Poberokhin (1720-1792). See O Beznosova ("The Perception in the Religious Space", 2016): "Soon (approximately in 1779-1780) a group broke away from Pobirohin's disciples.It was led by his son in law Simeon Uklein who did not share the mystical spirit and self-deification of the former leader and defended the need for reliance on the Gospel texts in the organization of church life (Margaritov, 1914). This group (called "Molokans") became a "rational" direction of. Spiritual Christianity, as opposed to the "mystics" - "christoverchestvo" adherents, "Doukhobors" and "skoptsy"." (p. 322) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.175.137.215 (talk) 15:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Delete Proselytize for NPOV

Terms like proselytize should not be used unless they refer to the practice of making converts to Judaism (which is justified by Biblical reference). Otherwise, the term proselytize is a slur word, often used to denigrate Christian missionary activity. Proselytize is largely a pejorative term which Christians do not use for their missionary activity, but is used by those who are opposed to Christian missions. "Proselytize" should be deleted for NPOV. (PeacePeace (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC))

Revision is needed of "Spiritual Christians" and "Spiritual"

Rightly used, "Spiritual Christian" refers to those who are walking by the Spirit (not carnal, walking by the flesh) 1 Corinthians 1. A Christian may be in one of two modes at any given time: spiritual (abiding in Christ, wearing Christ, filled with the Spirit, walking by faith, new-man-mode) or carnal (fleshly, wearing the Old Man, out of fellowship, exercising the lust of the flesh). Thus being spiritual is a desirable state for any true Christian, and there is no sect which has members who are always spiritual. And no denomination has a patent on spirituality. The term is not appropriate to a discussion of denominations or sects, as if some sect is "Spiritual Christian." Did the author of this article mean to say Pentecostal or Charismatic? Did he mean to refer to those who reject scripture in favor of an "inner light"? Is the editor referring to pietists or mystics? Then there are those who use "spirituality" as some kind of substitute word for "religious," perhaps claiming that religion is bad, but spirituality is good, with a very nebulous definition of spirituality (maybe even atheistic). Probably the intent of the phrase in this article is to imply a dedication to inner reality instead of superficial religiosity, anti-ceremonialism. I hate to edit it out, since I know very little about the Molokan movement (and even an obtuse article on this subject is better than no article). But I ask that somebody who does know about it, find some different and more accurate terminology. Can you find a better expression than "inner-sincerity Christians"? (PeacePeace (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC))

External links modified (February 2018)

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Armenian Catholic Priest

"Turkic Molokan Pastors still use the term for an Armenian Catholic Priest (Russian: Гахан, Ukrainian: Каган).[citation needed]" Yes, citation needed indeed. And also, if it is an Armenian word, why not put it in Armenian? Or even Turkic if it is now a Turkic word?--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)