Talk:Men's pole vault world record progression

Untitled

Was the pole vault record really last broken in 1942? Agentsoo 23:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I asked myself the same question. Going to the pole vaulting page the current record is over 6 meters set not to long ago. There is something terribly wrong (or incomplete) with this page. So hopefully someone who knows more about the subject will fix this.

Bold?

Why are some lines in the table bold, and some not? The table deserves a caption which explains the meaning of the escapement. Mikeblas 04:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Indoor/Outdoor?

I think Lavilennie's record has not its place here : the records mentioned on this page are only indoor records. If not, why Bubka's 6.15 m are not mentioned, while they are here? Furthermore, this page is linked in the Template:Athletics record progressions by "men outdoor". Please take a look to interwikis (French or Spanish for example) if you are not convinced. Is there any reason why "indoor" is not mentioned in the title of this article to avoid confusion? - Pmiize (talk) 17:11, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Lavillenie's record is the world record and the world indoor record, cf. List_of_world_records_in_athletics#World_records. Bubka's 6m15 was not the world record because it was set before 2000, when the rule was changed by IAAF. There is no official "outdoor record" anymore, only "world record" (both indoor and outdoor) and "world indoor record". Withenemies (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you ! Maybe this should probably be mentioned here in addition to the world records in athletics article. - Pmiize (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

This information was already on the page, why Bubka's 6.15i was not here, and why indoor records can be treated as world records. Note 3 quotes rule 260.18s. As for there being no official "outdoor" record, there never has been such a category - there are "world records" and "indoor records," the latter which have only been recognized in recent years by the IAAF. Further, only the pole vault can have an indoor mark stand as a the ultimate world record as well.

With this amazing record by Lavilennie, the text of the note needs to be amended, so that is what I will do now - I inserted the text there several years ago, after all! Canada Jack (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll object to the phrase "only the pole vault can" in the above paragraph. It is possible for any other event to set the record indoors. With tighter turns on shorter laps indoors, track records are less likely, but with Genzebe Dibaba recent 3000 metres breaking into the times of the single race that dominates the world list in the event, it proves it is possible. With the more controlled conditions of a pole vault without wind being more advantageous, it makes this event more likely. Trackinfo (talk) 05:11, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe you are correct on that, Track. Track specs are such that very few - if any - indoor tracks would meet the technical requirements for a World Record. They need to be 400m or so, for example, and banked surfaces are not allowed. Correct me if I am wrong on this. Otherwise, you have a point. Some of the field events other than the vault can be set indoors as well - all the jumps, I'd imagine, and the shot. Indoor javelin would be an... entertaining addition to indoor meets! Canada Jack (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) does not unify the results achieved in indoor and outdoor athletics. If you visit its official website, you will find two separate lists of the all time best results in the event indoor and outdoor. Please note also that even here on the English Wikipedia we have two different articles on the world record progression in this event. It's not our business to say how it should be when we already have a given definition by the main governing body of the sport which applies worldwide.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

They didn't change "outdoor record" to "world record" because it was the same... until Lavellenie broke a record indoor. This is the official list : http://www.singaporeathletics.org.sg/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/01/IAAF-World-Records-as-of-1-Jan-2014.pdf There's no official "outdoor record". The world record can be set outdoor or indoor (rule 260.18a). Withenemies (talk) 18:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

There is a lot of confusion on this, in part because the IAAF hasn't updated the outdoor list. But just in case there is any doubt, here is what the IAAF said:

French pole vaulter Renaud Lavillenie set a world record * of 6.16m at the Pole Vault Stars meeting in Donetsk, Ukraine, on Saturday (15)...

The previous outdoor world record was 6.14m, set by Sergey Bubka in Sestriere, Italy, in 1994; while the indoor world record was also held by the legendary Ukrainian vaulter with 6.15m in Donetsk, which he cleared just a week shy of 20 years ago on 21 February 1993.

The IAAF confirms this is a world record. Lavillenis broke both records - the world record and the Indoor world record. Canada Jack (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected. If you look at the outdoor list, Lavillenie's mark will not be found there. But this confuses the distinction - those heights were achieved outdoors, his mark was achieved indoors. BUT indoor marks can be world records. So, the separate lists distinguish between marks achieved outdoors and indoors, but for this event and some others the distinction is between world records (can be set in or out) and indoor records (only set indoors). On the women's side in the vault, multiple world records have been set indoors, but none of those marks appear on the outdoor lists, for example, Isanbeyava's 4.86i which was a world record in 2004, does not appear on the outdoor list. [1] Canada Jack (talk) 19:26, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

It's a very unusual and problematic issue that now we have an article listing the ultimate world records and the other one listing only those set indoor. We should still wait until IAAF officially ratifies this world record. A possible solution, however, might be to rename this article to document the world record progression outdoor as it appears to be on the official website of IAAF.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Kiril, with respect, you are confused on this issue. There are World Records and there are Indoor World Records. There is no "outdoor" world record category and there never has been. World Records can be set both indoors and outdoors (as long as the specs are respected - most indoor tracks don't meet those specs, I believe). Indoor World Records can ONLY be set indoors. The IAAF maintains separate indoor and outdoor lists but World Records can be drawn from BOTH lists for certain events. Hence the confusion. This has been the case in the Women's Pole Vault for more than a decade.

The page you referred to on the IAAF website is an all-time list, NOT a record progression.

As for waiting for ratification, there is no need to do so, we routinely list records newly set, though we should add an asterisk to indicate awaiting ratification, as. Canada Jack (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Distinction between "world records" and "indoor world records" does not exist anywhere else except for the English Wikipedia and it thereby is worth considering as example of WP:OR. You can challenge my opinion by presenting reliable sources on such distinction, but the lists announced on the official website of the governing body in the sport are definitely enough to support something else. The first association of athletics for most of our readers is "outdoor" athletics but not an aggregate of all athletics events.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:57, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Kiril, there is no "OR." You are misunderstanding the distinctions being made here. If other pages on wikipedia only have the record on the indoor lists, THEY are engaging in "OR" as the IAAF itself is calling this the new world record! Here is the press release - from the IAAF - which describes Lavillenie's mark as the new "World Record," surpassing Bubka's 6.14, which was set outdoors some 20 years ago:

French pole vaulter Renaud Lavillenie set a world record * of 6.16m at the Pole Vault Stars meeting in Donetsk, Ukraine, on Saturday (15).... The previous outdoor world record was 6.14m, set by Sergey Bubka in Sestriere, Italy, in 1994; while the indoor world record was also held by the legendary Ukrainian vaulter with 6.15m in Donetsk, which he cleared just a week shy of 20 years ago on 21 February 1993.

Please note the phrase "the previous outdoor world record was 6.14m..." Saying "previous" indicates there is a mark which has surpassed that old record. And that new mark is the one set by Lavillenie. Further, here is the text of the rule as interpreted by the IAAF itself, from one of their list of record progressions: "From 2000, IAAF Rule 260.18s (formerly 260.6.a) was amended to say world records (as opposed to indoor world records) can be set in a facility 'with or without a roof.' So far, only one event - the women's pole vault - has been affected by this change, which was not applied retrospectively." We can now add a second event - the men's pole vault - which has been affected by this change.

So, you can do the other language wikipedia pages a favour and correct this error, that the 6.16 is "only" an indoor record. And while at it, you might also correct the wrong distinction between "manual" and "electronic" times found on so many pages. That consistent error - found everywhere on the internet - suggests that marks set pre-1976 were "manual." The requirement following 1976 was that marks in sprint events had to be electronically recorded did not mean all the previous marks were manual - it simply meant manual timing was no longer accepted for record purposes. Many records pre-1976 were ratified by the electronic time, rounded to the 10th of a second. Canada Jack (talk) 02:22, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

My point was made by changing the blurb on the main page to clarify the world record was set indoor. If you insist on keeping this article, my suggestion is to make it clear in the intro that it lists all kind of world records set outdoor, indoor or whatsoever. Many of our readers may be deluded about the scope of this article without more detailed clarification.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:17, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

??? Kiril, the IAAF now ratifies indoor vault records as world records. Obviously, you didn't know that. Even though the press release was clear on this point, you said we were engaged in "OR." The note has been on the page for years, I know, because I put it there. On the women's side, there are NINE world records set indoors, and the same accompanying note, with no hue and cry to add something to the lede. There is no need to rewrite the lede as if anyone questions the mark, there is a note attached explaining the IAAF's rule change from 2000. We don't generally describe rule changes in the lede, and, frankly, I don't see the point of it. Canada Jack (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Please also consider modifying the template ! Skull33 (talk) 22:03, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Unit conversion

The IAAF may be biased in favor of the metric system (though I doubt it was for the entire period covered by the chart),but those of us who prefer to think in feet and inches and don't live where there are laws against this would find the article more informative if there were a column giving the records as converted to those units.The World Almanac gives equivalents!--L.E./12.144.5.2 (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

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Confused about Vigneron progression (possible mistake?)

The table shows Vigneron first breaking world record with 5.75 m in Paris on June 1, 1980. Then there's a second measure from June 29 in Lille. But it's still marked as 5.75 m. How is that a progression? Equaling a record shouldn't count as beating it, am I right? At least, I don't see this being the case elsewhere in the table, this is the only repeated measure. I checked the source, and at page 211 of the PDF there's the reported data, but it could easily be a typo. I suspect the second measure should have been 5.76 m. Which would make sense, since then the following progression is 5.77 m. We should find a way to double check. (By the way, the first venue that's reported as Paris in the Wiki page, it's actually Colombes in the source, and Colombes is outside Paris proper.) Kumagoro-42 22:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Kumagoro - sorry I didn't see this till now. First, Colombes is the Olympic stadium from the 1924 Paris Olympics. Probably should be updated as, you are correct, it's just outside of Paris... As for Vigneron's second 5.75, I double-checked the far more detailed version of the record progression from the 2015 IAAF handbook - which describes jump sequences, places and often the particular circumstances of the record in question. Vigneron indeed jumped 5.75 m on that second record. And yes, tying a world record is still a world record. Check out the 100m progression lists [2] where numerous athletes held the record when it was ratified to the tenth of a second. As for whether this is a "progression" or not given the record doesn't improve in this case, you may have a point in terms of semantics, but that's how the IAAF describes its lists and it would be OR to apply a "correction" to those marks which don't "progress" the record in question. Canada Jack (talk) 20:44, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Table Format

The table format for 1992 looks messed up - I'm not sure how to fix tables. SquashEngineer (talk) 22:09, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

doneMontell 74 (talk) 18:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Table columns

Two new columns should be added to the table. One for the length of the pole used. Second column for the material used. ie wood, metal, fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc 71.1.149.191 (talk) 04:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)