Talk:Matt Cardona

Requested move 16 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus that Zack Ryder is still the common name. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

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Zack Ryder → Matt Cardona – He was well known in WWE as Zack Ryder, but hes built a name for himself under his real name Matt Cardona, hes currently wrestling in Impact under his name, and since WWE holds the rights to the name Zack Ryder he won't be using it any time soon if ever again. HeelPerfection (talk) 06:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Oppose He is best known for his WWE career, so it's the WP:COMMONNAME. He worked with WWE, a worldwide promotion, for 11 years as Zack Ryder. WWE had millions of viewers each week, Impact has 140.000 or 120.000 per week. 1.150 results for Ryder vs 28 for Cardona. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support, we should prefer the current name, and he has been wrestling as Matt Cardona for over a year now. 162 etc. (talk) 14:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Working over a year in promotions with less reach than WWE. A few dates with AEW, but Impact has less scope than WWE (where he wrestled for 11 years) --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I note that you supported the move to Renee Paquette, who also left WWE around the same time and returned to her birth name. Wouldn't you agree that this is a very similar situation? 162 etc. (talk) 18:48, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I think every wrestler is a unique case. Ryder has worked for a decade in WWE, a promotion with a worldwide search. For a decade, he has been known as Zack Ryder so, for me, is weird to change the name to a new one when he worked in a smaller promotion. He won the IC title in front of 101,763 fans. For millions of fans who don't watch or even know about Impact, he is best known as Zack Ryder. Even if it's the current name, I think common name is bigger. About Paquette, she worked for WWE less time and other user pointed that big websites call her Renee Paquette. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I think I need to highlight the weakness of that argument. Policy is that we should prefer the current name in the sense of WP:NAMECHANGES only. The onus of proof is on those advocating a move to produce evidence of this. Andrewa (talk) 22:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not following. WP:NAMECHANGES says that If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. A look at Google News reveals that "Matt Cardona" is the name routinely used by sources. "Zack Ryder is dead" was even a part of Cardona's recent angle with Nick Gage. [1] 162 etc. (talk) 01:00, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Did you make a research on sources outside pro wrestling? How Cardona is known between people outside pro wrestling who don't watch a independent promotion like GCW? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, I personally think NAMECHANGES it's hard to apply to pro wrestling. "Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name", while in pro wrestling is "quite often". Just in 10 years, Jon Huber had six name changes. (Brodie Lee, Luke Harper, Harper, Luke Harper, Mr. Brodie Lee). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Good points. It should be obvious I think that kayfabe of any sort is a primary source. Andrewa (talk) 23:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I looked at your link... did you look at the hits rather than just counting them? The first few I got were all kayfabe. Then I gave up. Andrewa (talk) 23:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a wrestler. The sources are wrestling news sites. Why would these not be reliable? The point is that today in 2021, Matt Cardona is the name used when referring to this individual. While he was known as Zack Ryder while in WWE, we should give preference to his current name. 162 etc. (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

these are reliable, but don't cover the general audience. Maybe he is known as Cardona for wrestling fans, but as Ryder for a general, no wrestling fan audience. Wikipedia is for everyone--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

We do give preference to his current name but that is as it appears in reliable secondary sources. If these wrestling news sites are close to the industry or even part of it, and are just repeating the kayfabe, they don't count. Similarly, neither does a news story which simply repeats a corporate press release describing a promotional rebranding. We go by what other people call the subject in preference to what they call themselves in cases where there is a difference, BLP not withstanding. Andrewa (talk) 02:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

If we were looking at a hockey player, then would hockey news sites be reliable secondary sources? Of course they would, and as we are discussing a wrestler, then obviously he is written about on wrestling news sites. Nowhere in this rebuttal have I seen a recent (2021) source of any kind that refers to the subject as Zack Ryder. 162 etc. (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually, when referring to the Google News search you suggested above, 6 of the first 10 results that come up make reference to Cardona as Zack Ryder within the articles. Even if it does make it clear that Ryder is his former identity, it's to help the casual reader/fan who may not be familiar with the lesser known Cardona name that he's using now. Zack Ryder remains his WP:COMMONNAME. For that reason, I too Oppose changing the name. NJZombie (talk) 20:03, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Evidence above is that the current name is more common and likely to remain so. Andrewa (talk) 22:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 3 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There's consensus that, for purposes of WP:NAMECHANGES, Matt Cardona is the name that reliable sources are currently using. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

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Zack Ryder → Matt Cardona – Per WP:NAMECHANGES. Majority of the sources covering Cardona use his real name. It should also be noted that it really doesn't matter how long he worked under WWE as Zack Ryder, the new sources and reports cover him as Matt Cardona. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 09:51, 3 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Same reasons, "He is best known for his WWE career, so it's the WP:COMMONNAME. He worked with WWE, a worldwide promotion, for 11 years as Zack Ryder. WWE had millions of viewers each week, Impact has 140.000 or 120.000 per week. 1.380 results for Ryder vs 26 for Cardona." His WWE has more predominance and weight for general public than his independent career. Even his GCW career has less scope than his WWE career. For a general audience (no-wrestling fans) he his best known as Zack Ryder. No reason to change a name known by a general reader for a name just known for wrestling die-hard fan. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

12.700 ryder with pro wrestling specific sources, 7.140 for Cardona. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:08, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Did you even read WP:NAMECHANGES? "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well."

Sources do go by Matt Cardona (sometimes FKA Zack Ryder) proving the point. It doesn't matter how long he spent in WWE as Zack Ryder and if he has a billion old sources refering to him by that name, new and reliable sources refer to him as Matt Cardona. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 14:37, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Sources about pro wrestling readed by pro wrestling fans. For a larger scope, he still's best known as Zack Ryder by a very big difference. Range and number of sources also matter. The first source when he changed the name is 28, the last of his WWE career 147. That means, he is, at least, called Zack Ryder by 119 (probably more since I'm not talking about Other Media and Championships) in a 205 sources article. Again, Wikipedia is readed by every one, including no-wrestling fans. The name used by general sources is, by far, Ryder and not Cardona. Even if he has a independet career only covered by specific wrestling sources (no general sources), the biggest part of his carrer, with more weight, it's the WWE career as Zack Ryder. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:24, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Oppose. Same reason that HHH Pedrigree said, WP:COMMONNAME plays into effect here. PedigreeWWEFigz87V2 (talk) 14:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

But so does WP:NAMECHANGES.... ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 14:49, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support. I argued strongly in favour of this last time, and I won't repeat it all here. In a nutshell, WP:NAMECHANGES asks us to use the name that reliable sources are using; and reliable sources use the name "Matt Cardona". 162 etc. (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NAMECHANGES, unless it can be proven that the majority of sources since leaving WWE still refer to him as Ryder. — Czello 09:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support Most sources refer to him as Cardona now, so therefore wikipedia should follow suit. I mean, I know a lot of people still know him as ryder, but when you look at major wrestling sources such as f4w or fightful, he's called Cardona, although they do make sure to mention that he was fka Ryder occasionally.

Mogar101 (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support I'm going to cite examples such as P. J. Black and Miro here. If Cardona was only performing on the independents I would lean towards no, since his most relevant body of work (AKA notability) would be WWE. However like Miro and Black he's appeared in other major promotions since his WWE release under his new name. The current name has appeared on both AEW and Impact wrestling, both of which are large enough to warrant the name change being "official" enough. Point blank, because he's appearing weekly on nationally televised show under this name, it should be changed. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 15:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Support a good example would be Daniel Bryan as his article was changed to Bryan Danielson, even though he was with WWE for 11 years. It just makes a lot of sense as Matt Cardona is the name he's using now and he's getting very popular at the moment and getting more well known with this name now. Gorrrillla5 21:50, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.