Talk:Marian Anderson (punk musician)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TDow.19.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:33, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources added, copy edited

Added citations to reliable sources, but film and video sources would still benefit from having the times added. I will remove the tags for those items.Aatist (talk) 05:49, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi, User:Onel5969, Yes, the mos says "After the initial mention of any name, the person should generally be referred to by surname only." Please note the word "generally." As it also states in Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Essays/Primer for creating women’s biographies, "Dealing with women's names presents special problems." Your edit removes the initial and only mention of the subject's full birth name, Marian Jennifer Holloway, leaving the reader wondering, who is this "Holloway" person? So I am undoing your revert. If you choose to make further edits, please consider how to do so without omitting this important information. Thank you. Aatist (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:52, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the two sources you use to cite her maiden name are both non-reliable sources. I know this may seem counterintuitive, since one of them is her birth record, but there is no way to verify that the birth record is her birth record. Similarly, youtube is generally not considered a reliable source. And the video you linked to is not one which would meet the narrow definition of when YouTube can be used as a reliable source. While there is no list of Non-rs, you can go to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and put YouTube in the search parameter and it will bring up numerous discussions. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:50, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Finally found the exact MOS guideline: MOS:BIRTHNAME. Hope this helps. Have adjusted the article to correctly reflect the policy. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 21:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the reliability of the video, the source being cited is not "Youtube." The source is a feature-length documentary film, Last Fast Ride: The Life, Love and Death of a Punk Goddess, written and directed by Lilly Scourtis Ayers, featured at the Slamdance Film Festival, reviewed in the New York Times and Variety., and available for purchase or streaming from Amazon. I know this may seem counterintuitive, but the film meets standards for reliability, despite also being available on Youtube, and Andserson's birthname and date are appropriately sourced and cited.

The name guideline to which you link, MOS:BIRTHNAME,states "...if her most commonly used name does include her husband's surname, and you're discussing a period of her life before her marriage, it is often best to refer to her by her maiden name." The section on her early life, before she is married should call her Holloway, not Anderson. As it states in Wikpedia's Primer for creating Women's Biographies, "...excluding the birth surname, effectively has written women out of history, and should be avoided." Furthermore the use of "née," while acceptable by Wikipedia standards, is extremely old-fashioned and inappropriate in this context. Hope this helps. Aatist (talk) 13:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Here are several examples of articles using the name by which a woman is well known in the lead, and the complete birth name in the more detailed Early life section, as the article was formatted before the edits of User:Onel5969:

Laura Ingalls Wilder

Ursula K. LeGuin

Betty Friedan

Another option is to use "born" or "birth name," which has the advantage of supplying the subject's birth name to the reader sooner, treating female and male subjects equally (see Jack Benny). "Née" is a holdover from the days when a woman was supposed to be a lady, her name appearing in public only at her birth, marriage and death. I hope and expect Wikipedia will evolve to discouraging its use. In the meantime, there are better options. Aatist (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the source being cited is YouTube, which has the underlying video. The reason this is important is that because it's on YouTube, we don't know if the video has been edited, and if so, to what extent. Additionally, not sure the actual video would qualify as a reliable source. What were it's editing oversight? Also, the Primer for Women's biographies is an essay, and not guideline. The Guideline I linked to is the standard which should be used, and trumps any essay. Nee, is not only acceptable by WP standards, it is to be used according to Wikipedia's guidelines. Therefore anyone's opinion on whether or not it is old fashioned is irrelevant. Citing other articles is a case of WP:OSE. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:48, 15 March 2018 (UTC)