Talk:Manuel Rosales

Expand bio

Can someone expand the bio ? http://www.gobernaciondelzulia.gov.ve/lista2.asp?sec=1103 Sandy 12:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Resolve ?? his bio says seven children, but LA Times says eight children. Sandy 18:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

On his campaign website it says eight. That is more then good for me.

Something about parasites

I'm removing this insertion to talk page for deciphering:

Venezuelan State Television presented a video of a news show in Miami where Rosales referred to 33% of Venezuelans or "chabecitos" as parasites living off government subsidies. A statement he flatly denied, stating he had never offended a single venezuelan.

The first problem is that I'm not sure what it's saying in English; the second problem is that it relies only on biased sources. Are there any unbiased, reliable sources, which discuss this issue, hopefully in English, so it can be deciphered? (new account ---->) SandyG 16:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

What policy are you citing for deletion? the source is what it is a reliable source with video evidence of him calling chavistas parasites, I will see if I can spruce up the prose.Flanker 21:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's a secondary RS[1] JRSP 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thansk, JRSP - I'm going to be traveling, when I return, I'll read that and see if I can figure out what the passage is trying to say, since I still can't decipher it in English. SandyG 20:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I read the new (Miami Herald) source while traveling - not sure how to help here because, as noted by Enano275, the old references are dead (I never got to read them, as I was waiting for a reliable verification), and the Miami Herald source doesn't support the text (subsequently removed by Enano275). I have a very slow connection - maybe someone can find a new source? Has anyone searched El Universal ? SandyG 01:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

References

A New Era (Un Nuevo Tiempo)

The actual name of the political party is Un Nuevo Tiempo. Shouldn't the english translation be inside the paranthesis instead of the original name? I also corrected the spelling of Misiones. (72.181.194.88 22:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC))

POV

Serious POV was introduced into this article by these edits. The article is unbalanced and incomplete, painting Rosales as a criminal with scarce mention of his accomplishments or that he has been a victim of human rights violations. I removed the most egregious BLP violation, and the non-reliable sources, but an update and rewrite is needed. I will add sources over time to be incorporated:

• Romero, Simon (2006-12-01). "As Crime Soars for Venezuela, Chávez Coasts". The New York Times. Retrieved 2010-02-01.
• Romero, Simon (2006-11-12). "Venezuelans Square Off Over Race, Oil and a Populist Political Slogan". The New York Times. Retrieved 2010-02-01.
• Romero, Simon (2006-12-04). "Chávez Wins Easily in Venezuela, Showing Wide Support". The New York Times. Retrieved 2010-02-01.
• "Profile: Manuel Rosales". BBC. 2009-04-22. Retrieved 2010-02-01.
• (in Spanish) "Human Rights acusa a Chávez de neutralizar al Poder Judicial". El Universal. 2010-01-21. Retrieved 2010-02-01.
• Familiares denuncian un aumento de los represaliados políticos en Venezuela por el Gobierno de Chávez EuropaPress

More later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I will work on this article later today or tonight, as I'm able. If anyone has additional sources that should be worked in, pls post them here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added info from the sources above, but haven't been able to finish up the frozen assets part, as it seems not to be as straightforward as presented by the VenAnalysis article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Assets

• http://deportes.eluniversal.com/2009/04/16/pol_ava_ministerio-publico-s_16A2293727.shtml
• http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/04/20/pol_ava_tribunal-difiere-aud_20A2298381.shtml
• http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/07/21/pol_ava_inician-expropiacion_21A2526963.shtml

I'll leave this for another day; it looks like the "frozen assets" thing isn't quite as straightforward as VenAnalysis made it appear, so if anyone can locate a source, that can be finished. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Temporary removal, for discussion

Zulia State Governor Election, 2004 Results Source: CNE data

Candidates Votes % Manuel Rosales 483924 54% Alberto Gutiérrez 397927 44%

Zulia State Governor Election, 2000 Results Source: CNE data

Candidates Votes % Manuel Rosales 325733 51%

Pending discussion and article cleanup, I've moved these templates here. The article needs to be restructured, rewritten, and expanded, and these templates are causing layout problems and are hard to edit around.

Is this info still relevant? Or can/should it be summarized in text? If the templates are useful, I'll add them back to a Governor section once the article is restructured. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:07, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Temporary removal, for expansion and sourcing

On 24 November 2006 Venezuelan state television made available to the public a copy of the regional newspaper La Verdad dated 13 April 2002 where Rosales can be seen flanked by military coupsters and the representatives of the Catholic Church. He was also quoted as saying "From Zulia we have to back the government junta and its president Pedro Carmona, because at this moment they are our conductors, they are our leaders." He was also quoted as saying "Any Mayor or Governor that disavows the new institutional order, must leave his post... Because we do not want them in Venezuela".

The paragraph above is sourced to the Venezuelan government, with no balance from neutral, external reliable sources. It is also not neutrally worded ("flanked by military coupsters") and may reflect quote mining to make him appear in the most negative light. We need to locate other accounts of this event, and balance the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

References

To be checked

Is this the correct name? Where is it? (State, city, something to describe it.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

To be sourced

In 2006 Rosales appeared on Mega TV's Polos Opuestos where he said "there is roughly 33% of what they call chavismo, or whatever this government system is called, the majority of them are parasites who live off the government and are subsidized by the state". Venezuelan State Television made the video available. He later flatly denied having called anyone a parasite, stating he had never offended a single Venezuelan.

This is all sourced to government, and is radio; it was well covered in the hard print media, and can be sourced to mainstream reliable print sources, so we make sure we're not doing original research. I've left it in the article for now, but better sources are needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I see I mentioned the same problem years ago; I'll do a Lexis-Nexis search, unless someone else finds hard print sources first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:38, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Moving to talk. I searched google, google news, Lexis-Nexis and eluniversal.com and find no mention of this, only reported by Venezuelan state sources, moving here for discussion and better sourcing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

In 2006 Rosales appeared on Mega TV's Polos Opuestos where he said "there is roughly 33% of what they call chavismo, or whatever this government system is called, the majority of them are parasites who live off the government and are subsidized by the state". Venezuelan State Television made the video available. He later flatly denied having called anyone a parasite, stating he had never offended a single Venezuelan.

References

Charges

I am not able to easily locate information on the background and nature of the charges against Rosales (probably because I'm not sure what Spanish keywords to search on); if anyone has sources that give more detail on the charges against him, please list them here. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Children

The Spanish Wiki says he has nine children (not eight), but gives no source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

2002 coup

In addition to the sources present in the old version, here's Alvarez (2006), "Social cleavages, Political Polarization and democratic Breakdown in Venezuela", STOCKHOLM REVIEW OF LATIN AMERICAN STUDIES, Issue No 1. November 2006: "Rosales explicitly supported the 2002 coup d'état led by powerful businessmen and right-wing military." He was the first signatory to the Carmona Decree [2],[3]. Rd232 ^talk 14:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

"accused by Chavez sympathizers..." "signed out of confusion". Yeah. And all the decree foresaw was "the temporary removal of President Chávez." This is so neutral it makes my teeth hurt. Rd232 ^talk 14:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering that is Alvarez's phrasing, he doesn't appear to be a very neutral or objective writer; does his text include no mention that Chavez resigned under *popular protest* (nothing to do with "powerful businessmen and the right-wing military") over the issue of troops firing on peacefully protesting countryman? His view could perhaps be included if attributed as one person's opinion (in contrast to multiple reliable sources), but I'm not sure this is the place for it (the coup article still needs a full discussion of these differing views); the BBC's language is clear and neutral ("However, some point out that Mr Rosales was one of those who signed a decree declaring Mr Chavez deposed during the short-lived coup of 2002.") I will be out most of the afternoon, and hope we can have a productive dialogue later, but I suggest that these "coup" vagaries should be sorted in the coup article rather than here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Alvarez is a Professor at UCV, so clearly Chavista through and through. The source from which the quote is taken is here (PDF) No, he doesn't mention Chavez "resignation" (probably because Chavez didn't actually resign). Rd232 ^talk 15:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Rd, please remember that Wiki presents text from reliable sources, giving due weight to them. Our personal opinions should not enter into our editing; there are differing views as to whether he resigned, and we should give due weight to those views. If you could set aside the sarcasm, we could advance more quickly here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Your willingness to dismiss any source not fitting your views as "unreliable" or "cherrypicked" (or merely undue) makes it bloody hard to avoid sarcasm. Rd232 ^talk 15:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh Sandy! I seriously laughed out loud at this: 'Chavez resigned under *popular protest* (nothing to do with "powerful businessmen and the right-wing military")'. I don't even know where to begin with that, but please keep such comments to a minimum whilst I'm still here, or you risk making me change my mind about semi-retiring. Rd232 ^talk 15:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, we use reliable sources, according them due weight, and our personal opinions shouldn't affect our editing. I continue to suggest that the best way forward on the coup issues is to explore the differing views within the body of that article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

From this exchange it sounds like anything not fitting your opinion is an unreliable source. Alvarez (2006), for instance. Rd232 ^talk 16:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

No, as I've said, his opinion could be attributed to him, and explored vis-a-vis the preponderance of reliable sources; it's a question of using sources correctly. (For example, notice how the BBC says "some point out that ... " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:07, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

"preponderance of reliable sources" is a clever way of letting the proximate media reporting ("the first draft of history") settle truth forever. Later neutral analytical sources have the same weight as a TV station broadcasting as part of its support for a coup: yeah, that's the spirit of WP:V and WP:RS. Rd232 ^talk 16:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Retrieving deleted, sourced material from 27 Dec 2009:

On 24 November 2006 Venezuelan state television made available to the public a copy of the regional newspaper La Verdad dated 13 April 2002 where Rosales can be seen flanked by military coupsters and the representatives of the Catholic Church. He was also quoted as saying "From Zulia we have to back the government junta and its president Pedro Carmona, because at this moment they are our conductors, they are our leaders." He was also quoted as saying "Any Mayor or Governor that disavows the new institutional order, must leave his post... Because we do not want them in Venezuela".(ref)Radio Nacional de Venezuela 24 November 2006 Revelado caracter golpista de candidato Manuel Rosales Retrieved 24 November 2006 (in Spanish)(/ref)

Rd232 ^talk 22:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Globovision/BBC cites

PS, I'm not following your concern here; can you please clarify as needed in another section? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

the placing of the BBC ref makes it appear to support the entire sentence, when it contains merely a brief allusion to the "confusion". The quotes are from Globovision (renowned as a reliable source). Rd232 ^talk 15:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I will look at this later; real life beckons. I'm hoping JRSP will weigh in on some of the other issues above, as he is usually able to access Spanish-language sources faster than I am (I am slowed down in searching Spanish sources, since I don't always know what keywords to search on). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

PS, with all of my text reorganization after I got things added, it's quite possible I got some text disassociated with the correct ref. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

No doubt, it happens, I was just trying to fix it quickly, and discovered I couldn't. I'll leave it to you. Rd232 ^talk 15:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I will get to it as soon as I'm back home later today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe I've fixed this now with these changes (I also expanded some of the charges from that same BBC source, but I'm still stalled on expanding the charges, pending more Spanish-language input from JRSP). Rd, I hope you'll realize that some of what you objected to was my attempt to avoid plagiarism and quoting too much (which I already do here). So, I've added the exact wording in quotes. On your objection to Globovision's neutrality, that is sourcing an exact quote from Rosales, so differing views on their neutrality shouldn't play a part in what they're sourcing. Please remember that the press is censored in Venezuela, so if anything, those sources that you call "biased" have to be extremely careful in what they write. Please check my changes? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes are fine, but the result still underplays Rosales role in the coup, not least in the removal of sources noted above. And BTW, "the press is censored in Venezuela" - WP:RS for that? Seems unlikely when they're still so "careful" that they get away with calls for "military solutions" to the political crisis and the like. PS it wasn't an international arrest warrant it was a red notice. Rd232 ^talk 18:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I kept the Interpol wording that was there when I came to the article; if we can source and add in red notice, that's fine with me. One thing at a time :) I'm sure you're aware of the multitude of sources that discuss press freedom in Venezuela; if not, I wish you would become aware, because that absence is causing POV problems in quite a few articles. I continue to suggest that the coup article needs to be expanded and neutralized to include a full and neutral accounting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The BBC source is correct in the body; it's misleading in the headline and intro. Yes, I'm aware of lots of hooha about press freedom, including some potentially problematic laws, but nothing qualifying as actual implemented censorship (unless you count RCTV, which I'm sure you do and I'm sure you can guess I don't). But this is a discussion to be had at Censorship in Venezuela, with appropriate sources. Rd232 ^talk 18:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Which headline? Where? I'm almost out of time for now ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The BBC headline... well more the lead bit. Anyway the red notice is not an international warrant, it's a request for international cooperation in executing a national warrant. The difference is that extradition proceedings are still required. Rd232 ^talk 19:16, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still confused; is this what you mean? I split the two sources; does that solve it? Red notice looks good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Hardly. I mean that the old version quoted Rosales explicitly supporting the coup.[4] The current version attributes claims of his involvement solely to "government supporters", repeats Rosales' ridiculous claim that he didn't know what he was signing (I believe there may be video which contradicts the claim, but it's prima facie ludicrous), and doesn't explain the nature of the document he signed. It's minimising his involvement as much as possible without actually deleting all reference to it. PS The German Wikipedia entry has made reference to the Colombian hitman story since September 2009 [5]. Rd232 ^talk 21:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

If you can provide a neutral source for that, we should certainly add it. JRSP may be able to find something. Many people didn't understand the implications of what they signed that day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Tilted and highly biased

The artcicle is tilted and highly biased. Prime example being the section on corruption, which begins with declaring the charges illegitimate. Furthermore, the section on Rosales' participation in the coup is highly biased, and totally devoted to bringing Rosales' version of the story to the forefront. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucky to be me (talk • contribs) 10:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources so your issues can be addressed; you've provided not a single reliable source, nor indicated what changes you want made. This is Rosales' bio; controversy about the coup is covered in the coup article, not here. Unless sources are provided so that changes can be made, the tags will have to be removed. Also, please stop adding opinion pieces to the article; reliable sources are needed, and high-quality ones for a WP:BLP. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Second request, please provide high-quality reliable sources that you believe are not reflected in the article, in order to justify the tags and POV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

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