Talk:List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region

Some thoughts

Graphics It would be nice to have some graphics similar to what is available this page, or this poster. I'll see what I can do with MapPoint.

Columns I was trying to think of some columns that could be different than List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that would be more "geography" focused. I was thinking we could include the numbers of wards/stakes included within the temple district - those kind of things. And leave sq ft and style off.

Flags I mean flags in the sense of small graphics to indicate status - maybe we could use a Green Dot for completed and operating, a red dot for underconstrution, a orange dot for being renovated, a red circle for announced but not under construction or something like that. We could also do the same to indicate size/construction style of the temples

your thoughts? --Trödel 14:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the idea of the graphics is nice, but I personally dislike the graphics that you are putting in. It's mainly the fonts - the Comic Sans Serif and the Script fonts both make me ill when I look at them, they seem so unprofessional and tasteless. Otherwise, the graphic looks all right.
Bhludzin 04:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Mexico

Unless the Church hierarchy officially defines it as a part Central America for its own internal purposes, Mexico should be moved from Central to North America. Neither Mexicans nor Central Americans see Mexico as belonging to Central America. Bolivian Unicyclist 13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. I am workingn on some maps, so will change it when I get to it.

I see you re-ordered Mexico, but I see Federal District is at the top and not in the list alphabetically. Is there a reason why? Bytebear 17:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Combination of a couple of factors: the D.F. is "officially not a state", so I thought maybe it'd be better not to mix it up with the states. Also, I wasn't sure whether to alpha-sort it by "D" or "F" (although, as things stand, that's not an issue until Durango gets a temple). No argument if you want to move it. Bolivian Unicyclist 18:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Makes no difference to me. I just figured you had a reason, being specific about the order, otherwise. I was thinking of moving Utah, California, East US and West US to separate sections, to coincide with the maps. This isn't a real need so if you have objections, I won't bother. It just seems odd to have the Utah map so far from the Utah entries. Bytebear 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean about Utah and California. If my opinion counts for anything: Go for it! Bolivian Unicyclist 14:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Maps

I added all the maps finally. I tried to be consistant, but had to hack a few of the maps to get them to look right, so please don't complain if the borders aren't correct (or even there). I also am having problems with the labels on the Oceania map, so if you know how to edit maps, please help. I may add some global maps to tell you where you are, but I think people should be able to figure it out.

I also made the maps, and the geographic lists a template, so they can be used on the temple pages easily. I hope you like. Bytebear 00:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that it looks great! Bhludzin 23:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Style

I have been thinking about this particular list, and I think that maybe the Style column should be dropped. The Style column is on the comparative list and that list can be sorted geographically if anyone wants to look at the temple architectural styles relative to geography. In this list, the Style column data looks too crowded, and it pushes the map image off to the right. When I made the list, if I had envisioned the maps, I would not have included the Style column, but now that the list is a collaboration I feel obligated to ask before removing it. Any objections or thoughts? Bhludzin 21:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Standards for Temple Data

I setup a page to outline the standards for the data going into the temple here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Temples

It will effect this page in the following way:

• The data on this page will no longer be needed but will be a subpage of the talk page of each temple.
• A new template {{LDS Temple geographic}} will need to be created to house the formatting for the geographic list

Please comment on the standardization WikiProject talk page, and please edit the proposed standars where appropriate. --Trödel 00:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Notice

The standards that are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Temples have been implemented for the first 10 temples and the new templates are used on the other list pages List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Comparison of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The are also used for the Infoboxes on the individual article pages for the first 10 temples (see Salt Lake Temple for example). Please register any bugs/concerns on the talk page. Thank you --Trödel 06:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Billings Montana in Wyoming?

I notice on the map that the Billings Montana temple shows up in Wyoming. Anyone care to change? -Visorstuff talk 18:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

Template use

I have created a way to use the same data that is on the other list pages. This is a sandbox demonstrating the usage. Please provide feedback - yea/nea/etc --Trödel 20:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "edit" button... If it could be just a bit larger (like the size on the other two lists) it would be legible. Also, I think it would look better right-justified in the cell (with the temple name staying left-justified). Other than that, it looks great. – jaksmata 04:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't figure out a way to right justify text within the cell (that is the way that I would prefer it as well) - without splitting it into two cells which then creates additional problems - do you know of a way? --Trödel 15:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I just updated to use two cells and supress the border between them - how does that look. --Trödel 15:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I updated User:Trödel/Sandbox3 to reflect the right justification. I also split out the US into 4 regional areas, West, Utah, Southwest, East - and updated the manual table of contents to reflect that change. --Trödel 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that looks good. I was thinking of using html "div" tags and thier "align" property, but I understand that not everyone likes doing that. – jaksmata 13:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Warsaw Poland

This temple: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Warsaw_chapel.JPG exists, but is not included on any of the two English wikipedia lists... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.159.98 (talk) 20:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

That is not really a "temple" as defined by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a chapel used for regular, weekly worship services. There is no temple in Poland. – jaksmata 20:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. Maybe some day Warsaw will have a normal temple. Diversity as far as religion is concerned is much neaded here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.82.20 (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It not that the building is abnormal, it's just that it's a meetinghouse, not a temple. However it is nice example of modern meetinghouse design (see commons:Category:Meetinghouses of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Warsaw for more pictures of it). From the size of the building, and the style of the steeple, it's probably either a stake center or intended to become one. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It is not a stake center, there is not stake in Poland. Temples are special buildings that have very different uses than regular chapels. There are only 141 operating temples world wide, but there are 3,000 stakes, and the LDS Church probably owns in the neighborhood of 10,000 chapels, while using several thousand more rented buildings, although the last two figures are total guesses (the 3,000th stake was formed last November, and about 10 more have been organized since).John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

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Urdenata Temple

The Urdeneta Temple is incorrectly placed more around where Ilogan is. Urdenata is further south and more to the west.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Indianapolis not yet operating

The Indianapolis Temple is under constuction, it is not yet operating.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I would also point out that the Philadephia Temple should be shown in Pennsylvania, and the Washington Temple should be shown just north of DC in Maryland.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Europe map shifted

All the dots on the Europe map are north-west of where they should be, so Hague is in the middle of the north sea and Kiev in Belarus.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Tucson Temple missing

The Tucson Arizona Temple is missing from the southwest US map.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Arequipa Peru Temple missing

The Arequipa Peru Temple was announced last October but is still missing from the South America map.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Brazil Temples

Newly announced Belem temple is on the map but not in the chart.

Rio de Janeiro temple is in the list but not on the map.

Serkul (talk) 05:35, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Bangkok Temple

Map	Country	Image	Temple		Location	Status / Dedication date	Floor area
Phnom Penh Hong Kong Bengaluru Shanghai Fukuoka Okinawa Sapporo Tokyo Russia Seoul Busan Singapore Taipei Kaohsiung Bangkok Dubai Philippines Temples class=notpageimage| Temples in Asia Red = Operating Blue = Under construction Yellow = Announced Black = Temporarily Closed
	Hong Kong		Hong Kong China Temple	edit	Kowloon City, Hong Kong, China	May 26, 1996	51,921 sq ft 4,823.6 m2
	Japan		Fukuoka Japan Temple	edit	Fukuoka, Japan	June 11, 2000	10,700 sq ft 990 m2
			Sapporo Japan Temple	edit	Sapporo, Japan	August 21, 2016	48,480 sq ft 4,504 m2
			Tokyo Japan Temple	edit	Tokyo, Japan	October 27, 1980	53,997 sq ft 5,016.5 m2
	Philippines		Cebu City Philippines Temple	edit	Cebu City, Philippines	June 13, 2010	29,556 sq ft 2,745.8 m2
			Manila Philippines Temple	edit	Quezon City, Philippines	September 25, 1984	26,683 sq ft 2,478.9 m2
			Urdaneta Philippines Temple	edit	Urdaneta, Philippines	April 28, 2024	32,604 sq ft 3,029.0 m2
	South Korea		Seoul Korea Temple	edit	Seoul, South Korea	December 14, 1985	28,057 sq ft 2,606.6 m2
	Taiwan		Taipei Taiwan Temple	edit	Taipei, Taiwan	November 17, 1984	9,945 sq ft 923.9 m2
	Thailand		Bangkok Thailand Temple	edit	Bangkok, Thailand	October 22, 2023	48,525 sq ft 4,508.1 m2

I noticed that the Bangkok Temple is displayed at the location of Dhaka, Bangladesh on the Asia map. I tried to solve it, but didn't succeed. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 21:03, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Have they announced a specific location for it yet? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:52, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

They haven't, but it would be misleading to show its location on the map in Bangladesh. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 20:24, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Looking at it more closely, all of the dots on the Asian map are off on their coordinates. I poked around a little, but the coords in the templates seem to be accurate, so I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@Tristan Surtel and Nihonjoe: there was a serious problem with all the markers in Template:List LDS Temple World Map. basically, they required manual placement by changing the |x= and |y= parameters. I updated it to use the latitude and longitude values provided by the data templates instead. for places without a definite location, you can use |map_coordinates= to specify the pin placement. I will have a pass at adding this parameter for some of them. and, I still need to make a corresponding update to the regional maps ... Frietjes (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@Frietjes: I added the map above so we can see what's happening. Please let us know once the regional maps have been updated. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:26, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: I had this great plan to have the points automatically placed on the map, but then ran into the template complexity limit with transcluding pages landing in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. so, for now, you just have to manually place the points in the map template, see Template:List LDS Temple Asia Map for the map above. Frietjes (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@Frietjes: Okay, I think they are all where they should be now. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:42, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Phoenix still open

Why is the Phoenix temple marked as closed? pbp 00:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

A number of omissions

Among the announced temples are Russia (location unknown), India, Sierra Leone and Port Moresby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.23.187 (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

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Completed

The Quito Ecuador Temple status is "completed" which is a status not previously listed. I've added it to the color scheme as a blue icon rather than the default red since it's status is located between groundbreaking and dedication. Blue is already used for "under construction", "dedication scheduled", and "dedication postponed". Color schemes are handled by Template:LDSmap.-Dmm1169 (talk) 21:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Operations suspended

The Kyiv Ukraine Temple status is listed as "Operations suspended". I've assigned the status color as "Black" which is also used for "Closed for renovations" and "Rededication scheduled". The church still owns the temple, it hasn't been destroyed/operated by others, and therefore I would have to assume that it will reopen once conditions warrant. Color schemes are handled by Template:LDSmap. This change is needed as may be used more frequently in the future for other temporary closures due to political unrest, disease outbreaks, and renovations. Black refers to temporary closures and does not apply to temples permanently closed, destroyed, operated by others, or delayed/suspended before initial dedication. See Template:LDSmap for more info.-Dmm1169 (talk) 23:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

New fields, removing unnecessary fields

Proposal to add rededication/open house fields and merge/remove unnecessary fields in the process. These fields may be used in infobox templates, the extended list template shown in LDS in [Country]/[State] pages, possibly the temple comparison pages, and potentially future pages. The fields cannot be added until all LDS Temple templates have it included, otherwise it will cause an error in the display. See Template talk:LDS Temple#New fields, removing unnecessary fields for discussion. -- Dmm1169 (talk) 12:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Memory Issues

This page is getting close to reaching the maximum memory. I noticed this after I had added links to icons in the page Template:LDS Temple Map World. I added "|link=List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region#[Page Section]" to each temple listed in template. This was added so clicking on the icon will bring one to the section the temple was in. Unfortunately, this resulted in templates not being displayed in Philippines and Oceania sections (last two sections).

Most memory usage is in the templates. The most commonly used templates (used 300+ times in this page) include:

• Template:Location map~ are used for maps. I like the use of Template:Location map~ with its ease of plotting using geographic coordinates than finding x,y coordinates for each temple for each map. Because there's generally 2-4 temple icons per temple, this template is used roughly 1,000 times in this page.
• Template:LDSmap is used to automatically change color according to status. This is used for each temple icon and uses a single switch command.
• Each temple template (ie. Template:LDS Temple/Salt Lake Temple) is applied roughly 3-5 times in this page; at least twice for map (header, local, and many times also used for regional and vicinity maps of nearby areas), and once for table. Most Wasatch Front temples for example are used for icons in Word (header), USA map, Utah Map, Wasatch Front map and Table. The Smithfield Utah temple is used on the Idaho maps in addition to what's stated above. Multiplied by 335+ temples, it gets used a lot (roughly 1,300 times). This number doesn't include the repeated use of this template within Template:LDS Temple geographic.
• Template:LDS Temple geographic is used once for each temple; including former temples or suspended announcements.

There's been about 35 temples per year announced in recent years so at some point this memory issue is going to come up again if nothing is done. Simplifying these templates can save memory, although the maps are essential. Also, had the name of the page been shortened to something like "LDS Church Temples by geographic region", this issue may have also been avoided in the short term due to its frequent use in some of the templates.

Issue corrected in similar pages: This use to be an issue List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and with Comparison of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as of Early 2022. Replacing the table to a simpler format removed the memory issue. Dmm1169 (talk) 04:42, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Splitting the page such as what's done with Membership Statistics pages when it got too big may also be a solution, and likely the most favorable solution. Have a main page and split the United States Temples on another. This is the option I'm leaning towards and will implement it if there's no objection. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 09:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Is the topic here even notable? It seems like the notable topic is List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and this is just a different way of arranging the same information. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back, In short, these are two different pages, and the content mirrors the topic of their respective page. The right portion of the table is the same information but the left hand side (the main purpose of this page) is not. Nor is section organization, listing order, etc. the same. The entire purpose of this page is to provide that information. List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not show it geographically, no maps (other than the one that links to this page), no geographic groupings, etc, nor provides that search/sort option. Having multiple lists for similar content with but with different presentation is generally acceptable and common. For example, the entire content for List of states and territories of the United States is found on several other lists. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 16:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to be an encyclopedic purpose, I can see having a list for all of them or a list for a given geographic region (List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Africa for example) but I see no justification for what we currently have. As for List of states and territories of the United States which other lists would those be? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back, Please read my comments above before replying. I'm not looking at splitting every continent off from the main page. Splitting off the US should suffice and seems like the best option. This would leave page for US States and a page for world countries (as explained above).

Another option is reducing the size of the page through reducing template size. Is there some redundancy in the coding that can be removed? I haven't been able to remove much without removing functionality or content. Since I've started editing this page, I've changed the maps, I've removed redundancies I've found in coding, but I have not changed the overall content other than additional temples or split the page. This is what I'm trying to get feedback on before editing.

"which other lists would those be?" A number of pages listed in Template:US state and territory lists and a number of others use the content stated in the page. Again this is one of many examples.

If you're talking about geographical lists with content that can be found in nongeographical lists: List of battles by geographic location, List of United Nations organizations by location, Lists of tunnels, List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent, List of accidents and incidents involving airliners by location are some examples. There's other pages that have a separate geographical list on the same page, but these temple pages are already too big on their own (a reformatting of List of Temples was done last year to reduce that page's size), let alone combine, which is why it's separated into multiple pages.

As for content, this is not all the same content (as explained above). There's more to the content and intent for this page than the text you're referring to.

There's no time limitation to challenge a page, but looking at the Talk page above, you're the first in more than 17 years of this page's history to challenge the validity of this page's existence. To put it into perspective, this page was created five years after the launch of Wikipedia. Thanks. - Dmm1169 (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have comparable examples? Other lists of places of worship? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

If splitting the page (likely a page for US States and a page for world countries), what should be the name of the new page?

• LDS Church Temples in the United States
• Temples in the United States (LDS Church)
• List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region (United States)
• List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (United States) - which is similar to Membership statistics format
• Something else?

I noticed some LDS Church pages uses the full name of the church and some uses LDS Church. Is there a standard for page title? I noticed MOS:LDS explains use within the page but doesn't specify how the title should be presented. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 19:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

A split by continent would seem to make the most sense because sources tend to do that (LDS in Africa, LDS is Asia, LDS in South America etc). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

So the main page would just provide links to continents? Is there a need to split by continent? I saw one reference to Africa having the fastest growth, and major divisions for this Wikipedia is by continent, but I don't think it needs to split that way.

The main reason I think the US should break off is page structure. Here's why:

1) Keep current page page structure intact. The US page is created with this being the main page. All US Temples will be located on the US page and not this page. Links to each other's pages appropriately placed. This would be similar to what was done during the breakup of Membership Statistics in 2008. Links to the US page would be in header, world map template, and where US section would lie. The US page would link back in Template:Main and link in map.

If split by continent, would this page be a disambiguation page? Would the "see also" for List of Temples page need to accommodate all of these pages?

2) Separating out the US will simplify the TOC dropdown menu for existing page and newly created page. Currently one has to scroll past all US states to click "Mexico" and will still be the case if "North America" page was created. All US state subsections would move up a level making it possible to expand/collapse the list of states.

3) A US breakoff would consist 2 pages (1 world/ 1 US) rather than 6 pages (one for each continent). All temples in countries outside the U.S. will be on the same page.

4) A U.S. split will solve the memory issue for the foreseeable future. Not an advantage over the continent split, but just as feasible.

At current rate of announcements at 35/year (highest it's ever been, but has been at that level for a few years now), it will take at least 6 years to meet today's memory capacity on the main page. The US page would take much longer. While 35 newly announced temples is possible for next year, the current pace of announcements I think is unsustainable for several years unless there's active membership growth/attendance to back it. Plus with potential advancements in memory capacity over that time, it's going to take quite some time, if ever, to max memory capacity again with the current usage per temple.

5) Lopsided demographics by continent. Not a significant issue in my opinion for page split (other than needing to split off enough so the memory problem isn't encountered again in the near future), but thought to bring this up.

Current breakdown for all 335 temples announced, under construction, and dedicated:

• 55% North America (41% of all worldwide temples are in the U.S.). The demographics would be further lopsided if former temples/efforts suspended announcements were included.
• 16% South America (71% of temples are in the Americas)
• 9% Asia
• 7.5% Africa
• 6.5% Europe
• 6% Oceania

Asia+Africa+Europe+Oceania = 29% < 41% in US > 30% Americas outside the US

2023 Announcements (35 announcements). While there's some shift where its being announced, it's still geographically lopsided.

• 15 North America (12 in US)
• 8 South America
• 6 Asia (3 in the Philippines)
• 4 Africa
• 1 Europe
• 1 Oceania

Asia+Africa+Europe+Oceania = 12 = US announcements > 11 Americas outside the U.S.

If you have reasons/advantages where it would be better to split via continent, let me know. Thanks! - Dmm1169 (talk) 15:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm assuming when you stated LDS in Africa, LDS is Asia, LDS in South America you weren't stating page name. This page is specifically talking about temples and not the church as a whole. I think this would confuse it with [LDS in Country/State] pages.

I would assume page name would need to include the "Temple", identify which church, what location, and possibly geographic location purpose, although specifying the location may already indicate geographic purpose. Is it better to have the official name or the abbreviated form used in Wikipedia? (See examples above) Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I think splitting by region would suffice. We could go by the geographical areas of the Church or by geographic region. If we just want to split off the US temples for now, I can get behind that. As far as a name for that page, I'd suggest List of temples in the United States (LDS Church). The first line of the new page can then reference the full name of the Church, which is consistent with the MOS. Jgstokes (talk) 18:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Jgstokes, Thank you for your input. So are you recommending split into US and rest of the world or split page among regions of the world? I would not use church area as a region in this case as many of them would require custom maps to be created. Four church areas cross continental boundaries (Caribbean, Europe Central, Europe East, and Middle East/North Africa). In addition, church areas are prone to change much more frequently than political boundaries. Going by continental or political boundaries would be the easiest in this case as locator maps are already available for them.

I'm going to move the US temples just to get the page operational for the time being. I'll use your idea for name. This isn't necessarily the final arrangement or name as that will come hopefully by consensus. Modifications can be easily done at any time if consensus dictates. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 01:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

All of that sounds good to me. Thanks. Jgstokes (talk) 01:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Something else just occurred to me: Should we consider renaming the new page? I was wondering about splitting it off by continent. If we were to do that, then we'd include Canada and Mexico in with the United States as all of them are geographically considered part of the North American continent. And moving Mexico and Canada to the new page would free up additional space here. It's also worth mentioning that I've heard a great deal about future temple construction, and if even 10% of the feedback I've received from various sources is accurate, we will probably have to look at sectioning off other regions into their own pages as well. Would any of this be worth taking into account now? Thanks. Jgstokes (talk) 07:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The United States is a country, not a geographic region. Do you have a proposal for geographic regions to break this list into? Also note that we try to avoid Americentrism so a split into "America" and "rest of world" is a non-starter. I would also caution you that your editing appears to be bleeding into promotion of the LDS church which is strictly prohibited. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Like I said, I could see Canada and Mexico joining the US page as a North American region. I'd suggest South America, Asia (including the Philippines), Europe, and Africa be their own pages as well. Thanks for your concern, but I've edited articles about the Church and other subjects for 16 years now, and for the most part, my objectivity has never been questioned. My editing history speaks for itself. If you see my edits here as "promoting the LDS Church", that's your prerogative and you can report me for it if you like. Your call. Jgstokes (talk) 18:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

That was a response to Dmm1169 not you. Didn't know you had a COI here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I assumed you were talking to me because your comment was directly below mine. To avoid such confusion in the future, it may be wise to address your comment to the editor to whom you're replying. And being a member of an organization shouldn't preclude anyone from editing on any subject of which they have knowledge, as long as those edits follow Wikipedia's policies. Bandying about accusations of potential COIs willy-nilly could be interpreted by some as a failure on your part to assume good faith. I don't see it that way myself, but can see how others could potentially interpret it that way. That said, as I stated in my last comment, dividing this list into several articles by world region may be the best possible solution. Just my thoughts, which you can take or leave as you choose. Jgstokes (talk) 02:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I indented appropriately, a competent editor would not have been confused so no corrective action is required. Do you also have a COI? Having a COI doesn't mean you're prohibited from editing on a topic, most don't rise to that level... Promotion however is prohibited whether or not you have a COI. What exactly is your COI? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back, A country is not a geographic region? Dmm1169 (talk) 03:49, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

In the context of wikipedia lists we use country to mean country and region to mean something larger than a country. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Northeast United States is also a region so is Southern California, yet they're smaller than a country. The boundary between the US and Canada is a geographic boundary, so is the US border with Mexico. The page Geographic Region Is still divided into Continents. Countries were used as a subsection of continent. However the U.S. spans multiple continents (North America and four temples in Oceania).

Before the split the page was over capacity to the point where it was functional. As a temporary measure (as mentioned above was to move the US out of the main page so the page can be functional again while discussion continues. This can change again depending on what consensus determines. A page move and copy/paste additional content is not that difficult if consensus decides something else.

The main page (not including template use) had 134,195 bytes prior to the split. Since the split and at time of writing it was 77,646 bytes (World) and 56,874 bytes (US). Again, this was intended as a temporary measure until consensus determines otherwise.

I prefer to see input from more than two other users. I don't know how it can be called a general consensus if the discussion just between the three of us. Dmm1169 (talk) 02:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

And I prefer that editors with significant COI not edit articles which fall under their COI, but we get who shows up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Linking: I'm ok with splitting by continent as long as I know the practicality of doing so. What would be the best way of doing so? Do we split by the six populated continents, or just pull North America out? How are other pages, navbars and other templates going to link to these pages? Do they need to provide links to all six pages for continents, or to a disambiguation page? What will be the ease of getting to and around these pages? Are we making it harder to do so be separating it like this. I've got other but more minor concerns and these able to be handled/tolerated if consensus goes one way or the other. So, if the issue of linking can be addressed, I'll be ok with continental split for pages.

Titles: Whether we decide to keep the current arrangement or do something else, should we rename this page to List of temples by geographic area (LDS Church), List of temples in Africa (LDS Church) etc. to keep naming consistent between these pages? Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 02:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment: A two-page solution for breakup in my opinion is best. This could either be done by either breaking off the US or North America as a whole. If a North America page is created, "United States" needs to be a section and not a subsection. This does make a North America page feasible which is desired by both Horse Eye's Back and Jgstokes. However, I don't see a need for every continent to be a separate page as temples on these new pages are going to be more hidden than those on the main geographic page. Also there's currently a stark difference between titles of both pages that need to be address.

Details for my comment

2-page options: Removing North America from current page reduces this page to 69,592 bytes. This is a reduction of a little more than 8,000 bytes. This is partly due to Canada and Mexico using templates for map data. This would mean the North America page would have roughly 65,000 bytes making the split roughly half of the page. Looking at recent growth trends, 34% of recent announcements are US temples and 42% are North American temples.

Whether the break is done by breaking off the U.S. or all of North America, it's not anticipated to max out memory anytime soon with either page with either setup. However, it is more evenly split as a North America page instead of a US page. To prevent excess scrolling in TOC dropdown on top lefthand side of page, the "United States" section can be a section but not a subsection of the page.

3+ page options To try to evenly break data to thirds by data, It would be one page for US, one page rest of the Americas, and one page rest of the world. This would make the US page a grandchild page of the main page (hiding US temples even further), and the Americas page a child page of the main page. This is because the US (stateside) alone is 41% of existing temples, 42% of before-split page data, as well as a 1/3 of recent announcements (1/3 of recent growth). Consequently, breaking this into thirds for data-break purposes doesn't appear the ideal option unless absolutely needed.

Titles I think there needs to be consistency in format for titles between the two pages.

List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region and List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (United States) (original page format)

List of temples by geographic area (LDS Church) and List of temples in North America (LDS Church) (as recommended by Jgstokes)

Dmm1169 (talk) 17:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The idea is that there won't be a main geography page... Why would there be? Also just a technical note but this page is not overloaded (only 70k), we're not even half of the way to where we would generally consider a split to be required (200k). Perhaps I should have started by being clear that this page is not close to reaching maximum memory. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back, Prior to US temples breaking off it was 134,195 bytes. I'm seeing >100k as "Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed." in WP:SIZESPLIT and WP:AS. The 134,195 didn't include template usage. That's why the page wasn't able to fully load prior to split. Where are you seeing the 200k requirement?

You and Jgstokes suggested it be split by continent, and currently just the US had split off. That's what I was checked feasibility of splitting North America off and including US temples with the North America page. I saw this feasible as long as "United States" is a section and not a subsection, and with caution that those temples going to the new page will be slightly more hidden/less viewed than the main page. However I still suggest against making every continent a page as I see page linking as an issue. You were quick to make that recommendation for every continent a page without addressing the linking issue. The current US only split is also feasible and I thought keeping most temples on the main page was best, but I was alone in that recommendation. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 13:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thats 100k of readable prose which is generally about half of the total (and here appears to be even less than half, for example the page currently only has 777 bytes of prose). I have no problem loading the older/larger versions. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you explain what the linking issue is? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The navbar and oceania temples were not appearing at the bottom of the page prior to split (still like that in the before-split verison in "view history" in my browser). This was fixed with the split made last week and expected to work for the foreseeable future. I tried but couldn't find a way to reduce the page without reducing functionality, let alone handle future announcements of temples. This is the only reason I recommended and executed the split. If you know of a way to noticeably reduce the memory usage without reducing content and functionality, let me know - I still prefer that over the split.

Linking issue is for the number of pages with existing links to this page. Ya'll proposed to split this page by the six populated continents without addressing where these pages, navbars, and other templates should link. Should the "North America" page be the main page and the disambiguation page for the rest since it has more than half the existing temples? And, how is it better than what been done already? You never addressed this. Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2023 (UTC)