Talk:Lincoln's Inn

Chancery

Lincoln's Inn has historically been particularly connected with Chancery practice, I believe; why no mention of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.52.191 (talk) 19:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There is now, see 'Overview' 79.75.31.166 (talk) 12:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)Tony S

Age of Lincoln's Inn

As a member of Lincoln's Inn, I would say that the tradition among the four Inns of Court (Gray's Inn, Inner Temple, Lincoln's Inn and Middle Temple - listed alphabetically!) is that none of them claims to be the oldest. While the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple are celebrating 400 years since grant of the land upon which they are situatied by James I & VI, neither does so on the basis of a comparison with the age of the other three Inns.

The Lincoln's Inn website is careful to say only that its records go back to 1422 and that this is earlier than any of the other three. Its points out however that the Inn had been existence for some time before that date, leaving open (because nobody knows) the date upon which it is founded. I have therefore deleted the claim to it being the oldest of the four inns of court.Informed Owl (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Informed Owl

I agree with both comments above - but there is considerable doubt as to where the name 'Lincolnsin' derives and it might not be as illustrious as having a senior magnate as sponsor, but simply from a property that was occupied with that name - see entry for Thavies Inn. 79.75.31.166 (talk) 12:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC) Tony S

Photos

Can somebody please remove the photo of the arms of the Inns' of Court School of Law, which is at the head of this article. The photo looks tacky, on the miserable brick background, and it isn't the arms of the Inn, anyway. If there are no arms, it would still be better to remove this unsightely photograph. (Francis Hoar (2001 Call), member of the Inn)

Architecture

There was the usual confusion about which of the 'Gilbert Scotts' was involved on this site - I have corrected this to 'George' from 'Giles'. 79.72.17.57 (talk) 10:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC) And I have had to do so again today - overall this complete re-write is not very good and full of errors and is out of date at the time of the re-write. Tony S 89.168.1.154 (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Then perhaps you could provide references with your additions? Ironholds (talk) 18:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I have added references. Most of the previous references are lifted from the website, which is old stuff and out of date - is that not copyvio? But these references of mine were removed before as a copyvio!! citing a ref is not a copyvio. Anyway all of the latest publications will no doubt be used eventually to up-date the website. As a member of LI, I attend talks and socials regularly. I think you will agree that Giles GS who was born in 1880 could not have been involved with the Inn's buildings in 1882; the library extension was designed by his grandfather George GS in 1871 and the other work in the Inn was designed by him but implemented by George Oldrid Scott on his father’s death by 1882. Frankly the references in the text to these is garbled and confused - the discussion on the G-Ss related to Hardwick's work is inserted in the bit on Stone Buildings. Also that Inigo Jones could not have been involved with the building of the Chapel between 1620 and 1823 a remarkable career of over two centuries !! (this is just poor editing which most of the article suffers from - attention to detail please). The photo is of the Gateway onto LI Fields, but it is referenced as the 'Gatehouse' on Chancery Lane, and the text is about that. My edit distinguishes these and references them. Nor is the Gatehouse the oldest structure in LI the Old Hall is earlier as indeed the article says, it doesn't matter it was rebuilt, so too was the Gatehouse, one cannot have this argument both ways.(The other photo of a gateway entrance on Chancery Lane is not either of these) etc etc. Tony S89.168.1.154 (talk) 21:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Err.. no, lifting text is a copyvio. Using a text as a reference and rewriting it as not. Some of the statements you've added are still unreferenced, and the referencing style is completely out of line with that of the rest of the article. Could you reformat them, please? Ironholds (talk) 21:52, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

!! So you believe that Inigo Jones had a two centuries work on the Chapel and Giles GS was involved when he was 2 years old!! The references and deletions were there. I have clearly explained why I made changes above and each of these were referenced by me in the article. Why have you deleted those that are clearly referenced? I spent considerable effort referencing each of my inserts. And which statements do you regard as unreferenced? In order that you can indicate this clearly here is my text below - we can delete this from the discussion page once done. Tony S89.168.1.154 (talk) 06:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

"The first mention of a Chapel in Lincoln's Inn comes from 1428 when it was the Bishop of Chichester’s Inn chapel. ref>The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p6/ref>.

The current Chapel was built between 1620 and 1623, with a design attributed to Inigo Jones, being openned with a speech - sermon by John Donne, who had been the Inn's Preacher but was then Dean of St Paul's ref> The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p16 for the re-building project/ref>.

Repairs took place in 1685, after consultation with Christopher Wren. It was extensively rebuilt in 1797 and in 1823 then extended by two bays to its west-end and refurbished in 1883 ref> The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p19 /ref>,

1915 and again subject to major renovations completed in 2009 ref> Lincoln’s Inn Newsletter invitation to Chapel openning October 2009/ref>. The Chapel is built on an exposed undercroft ref> The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p36/ref>.

The Chapel features a new organ installed in 2010 replacing that of 1820 ref> Lincoln’s Inn Newsletter invitation to special Concert to celebrate new organ’s installation, March 2010 and Support Concert May 2010 featuring The Sixteen/ref>.

The Bell, housed originally in a small chamber and now in a turret next to the Chapel is said to date from 1596, although the date on it is 1616 ie prior to the current Chapel's construction, ref> The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p38/ref>.

It is this tradition that is referred to by Donne in his Sermon before the members which is usually titled 'The Bell Doth Toll' with the celebrated final sentence " ... therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee" ref> The Chapels of Lincoln’s Inn since 1422 by Stella Barker pub Lincoln’s Inn 2008 p38/ref>.

The Gateway onto Lincoln's Inn Fields, by Hardwick As part of the general developments on the west-side of the Inn by Hardwick, the new Hall, Library etc, a new formal Gateway in the same style as these was erected as a grand entrance from the Fields. ref> A Portrait of Lincoln’s Inn, Ed A Holdsworth pub Third Millennium for The Hon Soc of Lincoln’s Inn 2007; p36-39/ref>

The Gatehouse on Chancery Lane leading into Old Square, is one of the the oldest parts of the Inn, and was built between 1518 and 1521 ref> A Portrait of Lincoln’s Inn, Ed A Holdsworth pub Third Millennium for The Hon Soc of Lincoln’s Inn 2007; p38/ref>

Stone Buildings were designed by Sir Robert Taylor the money coming principally from the sale of Thavies Inn ref> A Portrait of Lincoln’s Inn, Ed A Holdsworth pub Third Millennium for The Hon Soc of Lincoln’s Inn 2007; p33/ref>. The" Tony S 89.168.1.154 (talk) 07:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, those need to be formatted properly. In the original article you had the Office of the Six Clerks, which wasn't referenced (there were multiple sub-clerks at the Chancery, so if you want to be specific you need to show it's accurate) - that was the sort of thing I was talking about. You'd shoved it in the middle of the sentence and made it look like the references already there were verifying it, which they weren't. The text you plan to insert is also problematic - "celebrated final sentence"? Read WP:WEASEL. Ironholds (talk) 07:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh I see the phrase "celebrated fianl sentence" which has entered the common speech is problematic, but a 200 year old Inigo Jones and a two year old Giles GS are perfectly OK - where are the references to these exactly? Why don't you do something about them first? Tony S 89.168.1.154 (talk) 09:59, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I did; the first was a typographic error (an 8 instead of a 6) and the second not added by me. Ironholds (talk) 10:19, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio

The entire article has, for over two years, been a massive set of copyright violations. I have been forced to revert back to a "clean" version. Luckily I was in the process of drafting a rewrite anyway, so it shouldn't be in this state for more than a week. Ironholds (talk) 12:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I added things to this piece which were certainly not copyvios, as I did the research and writing myself. This piece is inordinately short, especially compared to Gray's Inn, today's featured article. I hope this piece can be restored soon to some semblance of normalcy. Its brevity is a discredit to the subject. Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The article on Gray's Inn was also a discredit to the subject - hence why you got it to FA. If you did do such research, it was overwritten by the IP and others who copied off the Lincoln's Inn website. A Lincoln's Inn expansion is currently being worked on, but I can't really find any historical sources. Ironholds (talk) 10:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Famous members

I wonder whether this section is ripe for review?

It has become something of a disparate list of members and former members. Fame is a relative concept. A person who might be of note in one part of the world, might not be of note elsewhere. Where does the list logically stop?

I note that the article on Inner Temple adopts a far more restrained approach to the question of listing former members.

Do bare lists have any place on Wikipedia? I am posting similar observations in the discussions pages of the other two Inns of Court. Informed Owl (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

Correct that! I see that the page for Gray's Inn has a separate link to a page specifically listing former members. Although the observation remains as to the use of such a page, is it perhaps an option for this article? Informed Owl (talk) 12:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

I've been planning one for rather a while; the normal standard of "fame" is "notable enough for an article", so it's kinda self-fulfilling. Iirc you're a member of Lincoln's; are there any sources in the library you could get your hands on? The article is godawful, but I've been working on a draft rewrite; the problem is the scarcity of sources available to me. Ironholds (talk) 14:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I have had a go at creating a new page for this aspect of the article. Informed Owl (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

I think Ironholds does him or herself an injustice. The proposed re-write adopts a good structure and could perhaps be the basis of a re-write for the whole article.Informed Owl (talk) 12:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

Him, and thank you kindly! I'm planning on using that structure; it's the same as Gray's Inn, now an FA. As a member, I assume you have access to the Lincoln's Inn Library? We could do this as a collaboration; there should be some books on the Inn, as well as the Black Books. Ironholds (talk) 20:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Re-write

I have brought into the article that which Ironlhold modestly described as work in progress. I think it gives the whole article a much better structure. I have tried to fix as many links as I could which were lost in moving it across (down, solely, to my own lack of IT prowess!).

I think the article is in good shape now. Clearly some references need to be added. In particular, I have not been able to get a picture of the crest uploaded. I do in fact have one of my own (which I have taken and in which therefore I own the copyright. I shall try to upload it. If I am not able to work out how to do so, could I email it to a volunteer who might be able to do it for me?Informed Owl (talk) 11:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

It's fairly self-explanatory, but feel free to email it to me if you can't work it out. A quick note; Wikipedia's contributions always have to be attributable, which is part of the purpose of the "history" page - we can tell who wrote what. As you posted my text under your account, it now appears that you wrote it (although the edit summary is helpful in that regard). Ironholds (talk) 17:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Good point (as regards it looking as though I wrote it). My apologies, that was not my intention at all.Informed Owl (talk) 19:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)Informed Owl

Ehh, that's alright. Do let me know if you can find any sources in the library. Ironholds (talk) 02:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Gatehouse

Why is it in four years the picture of the Gate House by Philip Hardwicke, Victorian, on to Lincoln's Inn Fields from New Square is not correctly captioned and that it appears to illustrate the section on the ancient Gate House on Chancery Lane into Old Square? Tony S 85.210.2.117 (talk) 13:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Gatehouse confusion

Why is it in four years the picture of the Gate House by Philip Hardwicke, Victorian, on to Lincoln's Inn Fields from New Square is not correctly captioned and that it appears to illustrate the section on the ancient Gate House on Chancery Lane into Old Square? Can somebody who has accesss to this article recaption the picture or replace it with a picture of what the section is about? Tony S 85.210.2.42 (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Coat of arms

Can we get a better picture of the coat of arms? The one we have is the wrong colour, and the caption is basically just an apology and correction. Richard75 (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2022 (UTC)