Talk:Lebanese Arabic

Arabic

- Syrian Arabic is almost identical to Lebanese Arabic and no one in Syria says it's not Arabic. The term is diglossia wherein, like other languages, the written is different from the spoken. I could go on and on but Lebanese is Arabic and such unscientific notions should not be part of documented, scholarly sources

<I am sorry but it seems to me that most people who answered on the talk page have barely any or no knowledge at all in Linguistics. To truely understand where a language comes from, a person must read a lot of history , cultural history as well as the history of evolution of the culture/language. One cannot ascertain,based on confusing facts (for those who dont know),what a language is and what a language is not. Aramaic is a language that exists no more in its initial form known at the time of christ. Aramaic branched into seperate semitic languages that evolved and mutated over time. To explain it better for those who cant easily imagine or understand, look at Latin. French for example is a separate language from latin, even though it comes from latin. French is simply a language that came from Latin, evolved with time grammatically and vocabulary wise (Latin words changed form and became what they are now in french language, and this is a very important component of evolution in a language).. But French is not latin.. Learning latin does not mean you can speak or understand French.. And learning French does not mean you can read, write or understand Latin... Same relation between languages that have similar vocabulary , Grammar but are not the same, namely French, Italian , sPanish.... The relation between ARabic and Lebanese is the same in this propsect.. Just because a lot of vocabulary comes from Arabic (same way a lot of french, spanish, italian vocabulary comes from latin) does not make lebanese = arabic or lebanese = arabic dialect (the same way French, spanish, italian are not the same as latin and certainly are not merely dialects of latin).. Its a totally independent language that has had its own independent evolution(and here comes the history factor) and became what it is today...... Lebanese started with the mixing of Syriac (aramaic dialect spoken in Mount Lebanon and syria at the time) and the arabic dialect spoken in the coastal areas, and evolved from then on to be where it is today with words changing form and actually mixing with several other languages along the way (Turkish 17th century.. french 20th century)... It seems to me actually that the people who responded on this page do not want to acknowledge what the facts really are just because they cant accept (most of the muslims are such) that they are muslims and do not speak arabic the language of the Coran... PLease remember language is one thing, religion and so on is another thing.. but the problem is , as maybe not all people know "One of the main tenets of Arab Nationalism is belief in the linguistic unity of the Arab people".. Thats why they refuse , evidence or not to say that they dont speak arabic... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.83.244.129 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 20 July 2006.

What you write is a common misconception popular among some Lebanese. Aramaic and Syriac influence on Lebanese Arabic is minimal, and it clearly belongs to a continuum of colloquial Levantine varieties of Arabic. — Gareth Hughes 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Obviously' Garzo or Gareth Hughes relies on the common mistake which does not take the philology and lexicography of Lebanese language into consideration. Anyone who knows the first thing about Lebanese and ignores the fact that too many Lebanese words have no basis in Arabic but are continued usage of Aramaic or Syriac. Examples of such words are: shala7 (undress), jowwa (inside), barra (outside), ru7t (went). Words which are often misinterpreted as far as origin are those that seem to come from Arabic but they pre-date Arabic by thousands of years. Words such as Mot (death) or Bet (house), for example are assumed to come from Arabic while they pre-date Arabic by thousands of years, yet almost everyone believes they were taken from Arabic.

"no basis in Arabic"!! Apparently u haven't checked those words in an Arabic dictionary or Arabic literature. Shala7 : make bare. Ru7t (1st person singular of Ra7a): I went. Juwwa and Barra occur in Classical 6th century Arabic literature in the forms of Juwwani and Barrani meaning Inside and outside respectively. Furthermore, "Juwwa" & "barra" are also used commonly in Saudi Arabic, Egyptian Arabic and Yemeni Arabic. Just because u strongly want something doesn't make it true. And that doesn't justify lying to make it true!! Linguistics is the most important factor in determining the origin of a language, not history. Xevorim (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I know Aramaic, and Lebanese is not Aramaic. I do know that some Lebanese put about the idea that their language is not Arabic, but no respected linguistics publication has ever supported it. A few words that cannot be found in Fusha does not make Lebanese not Arabic: exactly the same claim could be made for Moroccan if it did. — Gareth Hughes 15:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Gareth (and his opponents:})I dont know any Aramaic so dont know how much of an influence it plays on modern Lebanese Arabic/lebanese language, but dont you think that the word "Arabic" covers a wider divergence in linguistic variety than most European language titles do? I mean to say that it is possible to argue the case for more than one language to have descended from Al Fusha Arabic, just as the "City of Westminster" is contained within the "city" of Greater London. Also I would point out that there is an equal pressure to define everything as a unified linguistic variety from the opposite side of the political argument. I remember trying to learn Arabic from an Egyptian flatmate who kept telling me how only Egyptians can speak perfect Arabic. I think that even if an alien landed and defined what language was what, there would still be a bias involved in their demarcation. I would define Lebanese Arabic, as an Arabic language, just like Egyptian Arabic could be seen. In other words, a language seperate from Al Fusha, which although largely descended from classical Arabic, can be legitemately defined as a seperate living language.80.192.59.202 07:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"One should not think that a dialect is a "badly spoken" language: it is indeed a full-fledged language, with a specific grammar and lexicon. If however it is said today that Italian, Spanish or French are languages, it is not because they are richer, handsomer or better structured than Leonese, Napolitan or Picard, but because they have acquired more prestige by becoming literary and official languages for constituted States. The idioms that were the starting points of these three languages, respectively the Tuscan dialect of Florence, the Castillan dialect and the dialect of the Ile-de-France, were themselves, originally, but dialects spoken on a reduced geographical area."

Henriette Walter Just a little bit of education for you :) Zerolando 09:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.}80.192.4.73 23:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

here here! 80.192.4.73 23:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Although it is a highly contencious topic, this is (I would dare to suggest) an example of how the words "dialect" and "language" are actually interchangeable, depending on ones' viewpoint. modern Norwegian as far as i can ascertain, was developped out of the dialects of danish that were the furthest from the way Danish was spoken in denmark (as a deliberate nationalist/romantic project) in the 19th century, yet this doesnt stop it being a new language from some linguist's point of view. However it is noteable, that the further away from Europe one travels, the greater the language change has to be before it is considered a seperate language from the standard written variety (Chinese "dialects" are as different as German and English!) Im not saying Lebanese is a language, but it could be described as such. Just as a "large town" or "small city" could both be defined as "thriving villages". "languages" seem to be the dominant dialects in any dialect continuum, and it is understandable that Muslims would take more pride in al fusha as their "language", even if they speak the same "dialect" as the Christians.80.192.59.202 22:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the publications of the accomplished linguist, scholar and historian Dr. Anise Frayha? Don't make claims if you cannot support them. The proof that classical Arabic and Lebanese are not the same is very simple. The fact that children of Lebanese immigrants who never learned classical Arabic but know Lebanese, do not understand classical Arabic AT ALL. I know it from my own family. As to Moroccan, Algerian for example, these languages are not pure Arabic either. They contain much of the same mixture of languages. Though I had studied Arabic from kindergarten to the university level, I am obliged to speak French with a Moroccan or Algerian because their languages are beyond me, unless they speak classical Arabic. It seems to me, Rev. Gareth, your argument is political swayed by anti-Lebanese sentiments. If you want to get a clear picture of the real unadulterated Lebanese, you need to go to the mountains, especially the North, and study what the people speak there. I am certain you would change your mind and get to know a different authentic Lebanese. It was not a long time ago when Christian communities of the Middle East gave up their original languages and adopted Arabic. Shankarees

U certainly don't think that Lebanese children who haven't studied Classical Arabic or Aramaic are more likely to understand Aramaic than CA?! And do u think ppl of the north mountains of Lebanon will understand Aramaic if they hear it?!Xevorim (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Nobody's claiming that Lebanese Arabic is the same as Classsical Arabic. The fact stands, though, that Lebanese Arabic is manifestly descended from CA. That doesn't mean it's CA, or that it's mutually intelligible with CA, any more than the fact that French is descended from Latin means that it's the same thing as Latin or mutually intelligible with Latin. The presence of Syraic or Aramaic loanwords in LA doesn't prove descent, any more than the presence of French words in English proves that English is descended from Latin.

In other words, you're arguing here against a straw man; the overwhelming linguistic consensus is that LA is descended from CA, and not Aramaic or Syriac, so all your arguments that LA is not the same as CA are moot. YBeayf 23:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I love the way you put it.. Overwhelming linguistic consensus.. which I am sure you mean encyclopedia and informative books you read which have nothing to do at all with expert linguistic opinion.. Because there is no such consensus :) Zerolando 09:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It is the other way round. The Lebanese language was influenced by Arabic but its roots are not in Arabic. The overwhelming linguistic consensus is wrong, just as the overwhelming ethnic consensus that Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinian are of Arabic blood is wrong. The National Geographic Y-chromosome study proved that and rubbed the consensus in the faces who said otherwise. This is the same.

You mention the overwhelming linguistic consensus: well, that is what Wikipedia is here to represent, rather than personal opinions. Minority views get a mention as such, and I think the article represents that. Please do not re-insert the comment about linguists: it is false. I am one such linguist, and have never come across a linguist arguing for Lebanese being descended from Aramaic.

I am sorry but you are not a linguist :)Zerolando 09:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Lebanese is vastly different from CA. As are 'Palestinian', 'Syrian' and 'Moroccan' etc. But the modern varieties of Arabic are in a dialect continuum, so on a linguistic basis it is not possible to say Lebanese is a different language from Syrian or Palestinian. The ethnologue treats it as a variety of the macrolanguage Arabic, and while that's a little messy, so is the reality.--Drmaik 06:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying Lebanese language is different from Syrian or Palestinian. In fact, what is referred to as Lebanese is actually eastern Mediterranean, and yes it is a different *language* from Moroccan. You do not monopolize philology and linguistics. As to Wikipedia, it is a major cluster of rubbish and intellectual spam and not a serious reference. It is mainly controlled by a bunch of stiff-necks who keep on changing information to suite them and their dictatorial way of thinking.

this is a great article.

This article desperately needs a rewrite -- the entire thing is premised on the assumption that Lebanese and Arabic are two separate languages, when this is by no means an accepted fact. I can see this turning into a useful article if the differences between Lebanese Arabic and standard Arabic are explained, and the cases presented on both sides for it being an Arabic dialect and it being an Aramaic-descended language in its own right, but as of now this article is just shilling for one particular political-linguistic position. YBeayf 03:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Agree. I am not a linguist but this is not an article, it's an argumentation. --equitor 19:45, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

My attention was drawn to this article from a discussion on the Aramaic talk page. I am clear that Lebanese Arabic isn't Aramaic, and that is divergence from classical and standard Arabic is of the same magnitude as that of other colloquial dialects of Arabic. I'm sure we are all aware that there are political reasons why it might be suggested that Lebanese is not a colloquial Arabic language, but the linguistic arguments for this are not convincing. Gareth Hughes 18:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

seems that someone wrote this who dont like to be lebanon arabic...

This last response represents the typical mentality of those who refuse to discuss anything other than on a political level.

There is no linguistic argument for Lebanese being a descendant of Aramaic. This is a matter for academic linguists, not politicians. - Mustafaa 12:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian are overwhelmed with Aramaic and Syriac, yet none of you are willing to acknowledge it for political reasons. You are the ones who are thinking politically not academically. The whole population of the area were speaking Aramaic up till very recently when economics forced their hand to adopt Arabic. The few who did not are still living in Maalula. The Maronites were forced to adopt Arabic by decree from their Patriarch over 200 years ago. In fact, the first Arabic books published in Arabic were done using the Syriac script at the Monastery of Quzhiya. Further, the first Arabic printing press was made by a Melkite Byzantine monk called Zakher who made the press himself. Finally, the Qur'an itself is full of Syriac and you all deny it.

It looks better now, thanks mustafa.

About the statement "Normally, Arabic letters are used to write Lebanese." Well normally it's not written, it's a spoken language... The only exception I am aware of is the Internet, but I think that most people use latin characters in this case, for practical reasons: keyboards are generally in English and a lot of software do not support Arabic very well.--equitor 02:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Mustafaa has covered this in his edits, but a lot of the time ordinary people use Arabic letters as well - look at any Arabic satellite TV channel that accepts text-ins and you'll see a lunatic mix. I suspect Roman letters are more common among the Lebanese, relatively speaking, but has any research been done on this? Most keyboards in Lebanon are in both scripts, in fact I can't recall seeing one that wasn't. Also, when Lebanese and other Arabs use Roman letters, they tend to use numbers to represent missing Arabic letters, e.g. 7 for haa', 3 for `ain.

Should we not mention that it is a form of Levantine Arabic? Palmiro | Talk 15:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The title of the form should be more inclusive. It should be renamed "Languages of the Eastern Mediterranean"

To sum up

Can we perhaps agree on the following?
1. Lebanese is not a language out on its own, but part of the Syrian/Lebanese/Palestinian continuum.
2. This language, in all its forms, is strongly Arabic in grammar and vocabulary, but is formed round an Aramaic substrate; just as French is largely Latin in grammar and vocabulary, but was formed round a Celtic substrate. This is common to the whole group and is not something peculiar to Lebanon.

well lebanese is a dialect not a language, so is Syrian and Palestinian, it is important stress on the different dialects because even thought they might sound similar there are some differences in basic syntax, words , and pronunciation. We should also keep in mind that Lebanese Arabic , is influenced also by Syriac especially within the christian populations and to some extent the Muslim population. Also there are some basic differences within the Lebanese dialect, Muslim Lebanese dialect is a bit more influenced by fosha ( or is it Fusha is english) , and christian Lebanese Arabic is less influenced and seem closer to a language. also dialects change significantly from region to another in lebanon. Hence it might be tempting to consider Lebanese Arabic a language in its own right. Also it might be tempting to merge into a single Lebanese-Syrian-Palestinian Arabic but is more fitting to consider Lebanese dialect as a dialect and keep the current article and an article for Syrian but its important to site differences and similarities.

( and as a side note Palestinian is also heavenly influenced by Jordanian and is closer to Jordanian then to Syrian-Lebanese especially in the west bank, but Palestinian refugees of 1948 from what is now northern Israel is close to southern Lebanese) ---jadraad] 10:57,March 9 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 20:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC).

From JORDANIAN? Are you serious? I think only people who knows what they are talking about should write here. Kamah12aa (talk) 22:15, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

French

I think that there should be something in this article about the many French words that are substituted for Arabic words by the Lebanese. e.g. nobody says toilet in Arabic, they say 'toilette', and they say 'merci' instead of thank you in Arabic. 211.30.104.199 02:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

not only the Lebanese say toilette, I'm Iraqi and I say toilette for toilet --Babychimp16 (talk) 19:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

well its not a matter of few words but several , well thats normal for nation that were under mandate ( in this case the french mandate to absorb words from the other nation .jadraad —Preceding undated comment added 20:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC).

Few minor edits: explanations

I have made a few minor edits to explain a bit of the controversy between Lebanese as a distinct language, vs. as a dialect of Arabic. I don't want to promote or dispute either side, because I know that such controversy will not convince either side, either way. However, for the sake of the article, I feel that we should explain the controversy in unbiased terms so outsiders who are unfamiliar with Lebanon and/or the Arab world can understand it. Nimur 21:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarification on "Standard" vs "Classical" Arabic

Most references to so-called "classical" arabic in this article are incorrect. The author(s) is confused between Standard Arabic (MSA or Fusha) and Classical Arabic, which is found in the Qur'an.

The difference or lack there of tends to have much to do with geography. In the west a differentiation is made, in arabic speaking countries they're one in the same. Aside from some minor grammatical changes made in the 11th and 12th centuries as well as newly introduced vocabulary, they are more or less the same. Al-Fusha also refers to both MSA and Classical Arabic not just one or the other.179.12.158.42 (talk) 11:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

What?

"In Arabic, "look inside" is translated as /ʊnðˤʊr fɪdːaːχɪl/, or in the feminine, /ʊnðˤʊri fɪdːaːχɪl/. However In Lebanese Arabic, as in Syrian and Palestinian, it becomes /ʃuːf ʒʊwːɛ/, or in the female command form, /ʃuːfe ʒʊwːɛ/."

What are those weird characters and how is anyone supposed to read them? Keep in mind, the majority of readers don't understand this type of transcription (if it is transcription). Needless to say, it needs to be changed or deleted. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

"What are those weird characters and how is anyone supposed to read them?" - International phonetic alphabet.

"the majority of readers don't understand this type of transcription" - the majority of readers don't understand algebraic chess notation or bra-ket notation, but they are standard, precise and useful if not irreplaceable in their own fields.

"Needless to say, it needs to be changed" - can you suggest an alternative that is standardised, equally precise, and with verifiable use in the literature? Knepflerle (talk) 00:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

How about an alternative that doesn't require us to learn a new alphabet? I have seen examples of easier to read transliteration [1]. Qalam and UNGEGN are more reader-friendly transliteration standards. We can keep the IPA for those few who can understand it, but supplement it with other transcriptions. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 02:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

well in standard Arabic Look inside is : Onzor Fi al dakhl/onzory fi al dakhel(fem) in the Lebanese dialect its : choof joowa/choufeh jouwa(fem) jadraad —Preceding undated comment added 20:35, 9 March 2011 (UTC).

External links

I removed some external links that I felt were not appropriate. One of the links was an ordering page where one would buy learning materials. Others were not informative or advocated a minority opinion (that Lebanese is not an Arabic dialect).-Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 20:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

As a Lebanese person I dont think u have the right to dictate what our language is. You are biased ya Falastine fee Qalby and ur hate towards Lebanese is quite apparent. There is no harm in keeping external sites because SCHOLARS do debate on whether Lebanese is a language of its own or a dialect of Arabic.

It has not been ruled out that it is not a language of its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.116.192 (talk) 00:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Article needs to be deleted

There are no in-text citations and the article is completely unverifiable. The unreferenced tag has been there since 4/07 and no one has made an effort to fix this mess. Only one solution, delete this article. That's the only way to get people working. Where are those Lebanese nationalists when you need them? --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 20:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Chill out. If we deleted every article that had the "verification" tag, Wikipedia would be about one-third its present size. The entire article is not "unverifiable", just parts of it. (Taivo (talk) 23:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC))

"Wikipedia would be about one-third its present size" I don't know about you but I like the sound of that. Wikipedia suffers from an extreme amount of plagiarized/copyvio text, inaccurate information, biased information. Just do a verifiability check on a random article and you will know what I mean. So a lack of in-text citations makes me nervous for good reason. BTW the editors of this non-verifiable article were given almost 2 years to fix this problem. I don't see a single valid in-text citation. Deleting the article will get people that needed motivation to produce a good article. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 23:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Inline citation isn't the be all and end all, even though it is best practice. Have you checked that the information you question isn't contained in any of the texts marked as "reference"?

As Taivo says, the subject matter is certainly verifiable and notable. Remember tags are only seen by those who click on to the article - far more productive here would be to spread awareness about the problems with this article. There's two WikiProjects who have "claimed" this article with tags at the top - leave messages at their talkpages, and let's see if they actually live up to their promises of supporting these articles! WP:LING could help too, and maybe there's people at Wikipedia:WikiProject Arab world who will help. There's a lot of avenues to explore before AfD. Knepflerle (talk) 00:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't read French so it would be futile for me to check the sources, only one of them is English btw. The list of references does look impressive, more impressive than the short article itself. Hard to believe that all those seven sources were used for this article. References is not the same thing as further reading, right? Anyway, those portals look dead, I didn't bother with them. But if you insist, I might bring it to their attention. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 02:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Artistic values

What are the artistic values mentioned at the bottom of the last sentence at Lebanese Arabic#Examples. I want to know and understand, what is so artistic in pronouncing /aj, aw/ instead of /e, o/? --Mahmudmasri (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

What is the name of the dialect in Arabic?

Hello, everyone,

I'm going to translate this article and expand on it for the Russian Wikipedia. It seems there's no Arabic name for the dialect in neither of the several different-language Wiki editions. Arabic edition says لهجات لبنان, is that the only name?

Could someone please write the name of the dialect in Standard Arabic as well as in the dialect itself (what do the Lebanese call their language?). Transcription for the Lebanese name would be good to have too. Thanks a lot in advance. Zumrasha (talk) 07:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

lebanese arabic?

I will give the editors of "Lebanese Arabic" one month to explain what "Lebanese arabic" is and use reliable sources to stabilize the article, then I will start by first editing the name of the article and then use more verified content.

Wikipedia articles should be based on scientific/historical facts built upon reliable and verified sources. Not wishful thinking or legends used within minorities of diffrent religions and ethnicities. Nor should it be based on political conviction.

The arabic language is one language, then there is diffrent accents with unique differentiation (sometimes, not always) from the pre-arabic history. Also the constitution of respective country should be put in consideration.

And please dont use; in lebanese we say "toilette" or "sofa/kanaba" or "merci" and so on, to proof a point. As this makes an editor seems idiotic (im sorry) for obvious reasons! Kamah12aa (talk) 22:16, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Title Change Request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 16:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Lebanese Arabic → Lebanese Language – I am sorry to reopen the discussion here after such a long time, but I really need to say that in my opinion, Lebanese is not Arabic. Of course, it has a considerable roots in Arabic but it is mainly Aramaic, Syriac, and Canaanite. If Arabic is a -let us say- large part of Lebanese, it does not make of it a "vernacular", an "accent", a "lahjeh" of this language. Said Akl -who was the leader of the fight for the separation of Lebanese from Arabic- has always refuted the above statement. >>Now, take the Maltese example. I have studied connections between Lebanese and Maltese for months and I have found that, even thought the language of Malta is strongly influenced by Arabic in a proportion equal or even superior of that of Lebanese, it is still considered a language à part entière. Note that for me -Lebanese, thus native speaker of Lebanese- it is not so hard to "decipher" and understand Maltese. It is also good to know that the first people to have arrived on the island of Malta were Phoenicians who had set sail from the port of Byblos/Jbeil and so who were speakers of Canaanite or a pre-Canaanite language.>>I then request changing the title from Lebanese Arabic to Lebanese Language. >>Respectfully Youssefbassil6 12:06 PM (GMT+2). Youssefbassil6(talk • contribs) 09:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think you ought to first expand and add references to Lebanese_Arabic#Lebanese_as_a_Non-Arabic_Language. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
• The title should be "Lebanese language". --Article editor (talk) 02:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• >>I am working on the expansion of Lebanese_Arabic#Lebanese_as_a_Non-Arabic_Language. Also note that replacing the title from Lebanese Arabic to Lebanese Language does not mean deleting all of what has to do with Arabic in the article. In addition, I find that the to-be title is perfectly neutral and hides any political or ideological opinion regarding this language. P.S.: If anyone has any information that they may find important and adequate for the Lebanese_Arabic#Lebanese_as_a_Non-Arabic_Language paragraph, please inform me. >>Respectfully. --Youssefbassil6 (talk) 12:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I consider that the title should be changed to Lebanese Language. And as Youssefbassil6 said, this title would be a better way to keep the article neutral and unbiased. SFarid-S (talk) 12:51, 24 July 2013 (UTC) — SFarid-S (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Opppose. (I'd be curious as to how many of the previous comments are socks of one puppetmaster.) This language is clearly a variety of Arabic and is virtually universally acknowledged as such. I know of no reliable scholarly linguistic source that lists it otherwise or uses any other name than "Lebanese Arabic". Indeed, it is so integrally part of the Arabic system that it isn't even a separate variety, but is included with Syrian Arabic in "North Levantine Arabic". Calling it "Lebanese Language" is the equivalent of calling American English the "American language". It's a meaningless, political statement of nationalism and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. It is unscientific flag-waving. --Taivo (talk) 19:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I do understand Taivo that Lebanese is considered a variety of Arabic by the ISO-639 classification system but not all of the linguistic community considers that Lebanese is a branch of Arabic. Because the debate is still open on the identity of the language, it is better to pick a title more neutral, showing less bias. Youssefbassil6 (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

  Evidence? — Lfdder (talk) 20:30, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

  Evidence? --Taivo (talk) 00:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

  Evidence: There are still many books written by historians and linguists (such as Franck Salameh, "Language Memory and Identity in the Middle East", Lexington Books, 2010 – and if proving you that the debate is still open requires more argumentative works or essays please tell me because there are plenty I can cite). Many organizations give themselves for mission the separation of Lebanese from Arabic (e.g: Lebanese Language Institute; Lebanese Aramaic Learning Center; a handful of minor political parties; etc.). And while the official language of Lebanon is still Arabic and not Lebanese Arabic, there is no OFFICIAL affirmation that Lebanese is Arabic. In addition, me being Lebanese and living in Lebanon gives me a better understanding of things: some people name the language Lebneneh (Lebanese), and others Arabic. Youssefbassil6 (talk) 06:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

  Perception of the language is irrelevant to its classification and irrelevant to what this article should be called. 'Lebanese Arabic' is COMMONNAME; it predominates in literature. — Lfdder (talk) 11:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

  Lfdder, Lebanese Language might not be recognized, but it does not mean that it does not exist. Some countries in the Middle-East do not recognize Israel, but Israel exists. Do you see what I am trying to get to? There is a difference between recognition and existence. And THAT is my fight. I want (or should I say: WE) the Lebanese Language to go from merely existing to becoming a recognized language, regardless of what Arabs think. Youssefbassil6 (talk) 07:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The name is fine because it avoids calling it a dialect. There are many varieties (note: I avoid the term "dialect" here) of Arabic that are distinct enough to be separate languages, but because of some sociolinguistic factors they are all considered "Arabic". Likewise, many varieties of Chinese are as or more distinct than the Romance languages, but they are all considered "Chinese", which is reflected in their article titles (which does not equal calling them dialects). --JorisvS (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

  JorisvS, the name is not fine just because it's not being called a dialect. De facto, whether the title was Lebanese Dialect, or as it is the case, Lebanese Arabic, I would have requested a change to Lebanese Language. So the point here is that we do not refuse a title, but we request another one. Youssefbassil6 (talk) 07:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Lfdder, you have been my greatest protractor in this whole story. I would like you to please stop the constant "picking". My paragraph Lebanese_Arabic#Lebanese_as_a_non-Arabic_Language is complete with its citations in the Bibliography at the bottom of the page. I am going to undo you deletion, and I want you to explain to me, here on talk what is wrong with the paragraph or the citation before we can get to an accord on what to delete and what to correct. It is a modest demand. Regards Youssefbassil6 (talk) 07:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • "was the architect of the spirit of the language and fought for the recognition" and "battle for the recognition" are very unencyclopedic and it focuses on one man's point of view. --JorisvS (talk) 08:58, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Thank you JorisvS. That is how a correction should be made. I will work on fixing that issue. Youssefbassil6 (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I've seen no demonstration that the common name is Lebanese vs. Lebanese Arabic. Lebanese Arabic gets no shortage of hit[2], so I'd like to see the countering argument.--Labattblueboy (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

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Dialects OF Lebanese Arabic

I believe that there are WAY too many 'dialects' of Lebanese Arabic in this page. These variations are better discribed as rural/urban accents or merely as variations instead of the common-but-innacurate use 'dialect' for them. Mark Enlightenment (talk) 04:05, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

While I agree with you on the fact that the word "dialect" is a bit too excessive, both Ethnologue and Glottolog list them as such. Of course, today most Lebanese people speak the same dialect with some accent differences based on the region, however the listed dialects don't just refer to accent differences but also to grammatical differences (such as the use of the suffix "-ish" as a negative, which is specific to certain dialects). Nehme1499 (talk) 11:42, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Al-Jallad's Research

Just to put here that the theory that Lebanese "descends" from classical Arabic has been debunked by Ahmad Al-Jallad and others. Same with other vernaculars. My mentions in the text have been reverted. I misplaced my Wiki password and am editing from IP.185.42.34.46 (talk) 07:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Jallad is just one of a few people who believe that. All valid linguists are of the idea that Lebanese is indeed a variety of Arabic. Not only that, but also most reliable linguistic codes (such as IPA and Glottolog) list "Lebanese" as "a member of the macrolanguage Arabic". Changing "Lebanese Arabic is descended from the Old Arabic" to "...is assumed to descend from...", as well as phrases like "However modern research has debunked the idea of descendece from Peninsular Arabic dialects, such as work by Ahmad Al-Jallad" makes it seem as if Al-Jallad had absolute authority over the status of Lebanese Arabic. I want to make clear that I am very much not a pan Arab, however I do believe that we should stick to research by more authoritative linguists. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:55, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

From Al-Jallad's Manual of the Historical Grammar of Arabic (p. 33): The story of the modern dialects is one of contact and convergence. The spread of Arabic did not happen only one time during the initial Arab Conquests of the 7th century. The first dialects implanted during this period lie buried under waves of later Arabics, all converging in different ways with each other. Ancient forms of Arabic, such as those attested in the northern Old Arabic dialect continuum and Old Ḥigāzī mix with later innovations that emerged in the medieval period. In addition to this, Classical Arabic casts its distinct shadow over this process for over a millennium, and influenced the development of the dialects just as much as it did other Islamicate languages. While the effects of Classical Arabic on, say, Persian are rather obvious, it is sometimes more difficult to distinguish intrusions from the literary language in the modern dialects, except for the latest phase of contact where such loans tend to have distinct phonological characteristicsJadhimah (talk) 06:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

"Lebanese does not descend from Classical Arabic" is not incompatible with "Lebanese is a variety of Arabic", both being facts. Valid (+historical+Arabist+etc.) linguists also understand that our textbook standard of Classical Arabic is a sister evolution to today's Arabics rather than an ancestor to them, and Al-Jallad isn't unconventional or a lone wolf in this respect. This doesn't relate specifically to the edits in question, though. M. I. Wright (talk) 23:12, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Levantine Arabic FAC

Levantine Arabic has been nominated for FAC. Any feedback would be more than welcome :) A455bcd9 (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)