Talk:Kansai dialect

Distinctive features

Need to run that through someone more knowledgable, but one very distinctive feature of Kansai-ben, not covered yet, seems to be heavy tendency to use うち as 1st person pronoun, neglecting all others. mathrick 21:37, 24 July 2005‎ (UTC)

Use of hen

I don't have an official source (maybe a native Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben speaker can confirm), but during the year and a half I spent in Osaka, I definitely noticed the use of hen instead of the standard Japanese plain negative nai in everyday speech.

example: wakaranai -> wakarahen ["don't understand"]; tabenai -> tabehen ["don't eat"]

Can someone confirm this? --Gar2chan 07:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that REALLY needs to be in there if it's not already. The past tense is usually henkatta and it's used incredible frequency all over Kansai, and in conjuction with other patterns as well. I won't put that in there yet, b/c i think someone needs to give orginization of the article a bit second thought (moreso the Japanese dialects article though). Also, if the n at the end of verbs isn't in there, that kind of goes in there with hen. That pattern is made by taking the base used in the nai pattern and putting n where nai would go. Past tense can also be done as nkatta, as in orankatta, meaning someone wasn't there (oru is common to be used in place of iru in Kansai regions as well).Alan 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

the "orankatta" isn't specific to Kansaiben though, it's used as far north as in Gifu. And south? I think it stretches even further.

On above topics

Uchi is often used as a first-person pronoun by girls and young women.
Wakarahen as "don't understand" and taberarehen as "can't eat" are ubiquitous. Wakaran is just as common but more casual. Wakaran is a contraction of the older Japanese wakaranu rather than a contraction of wakaranai. This applies to all words with negative -n endings.
In Osaka I also tend to hear -te harahen (e.g. itte harahen, isn't here) as the negative form of -te haru. I'm not sure if this is possible in Kyoto as well. I don't know if orankatta is widespread outside of Kansai, but I know that using oru as "you are" (kanojyo oru? "Do you have a girlfriend?") is not the standard usage (first-person humble).
If anyone can give more feedback on these things, I'll work a bit on the article. Dekimasu 00:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

More on uchi: my Japanese-Japanese dictionary lists the "I" usage as "mainly Kansai-ben, used by women and children." Dekimasu 00:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Definately, if a man uses "uchi" people will think he's very feminine. "oru" is not hyoujungo but I have personally heard it being used in Gifu as well as in Shikoku.Mackan 00:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

My friends confirm that you can hear -te harahen elsewhere in Kansai. Dekimasu 10:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! --Gar2chan 09:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The french wikipedia article on kansai-ben has rather a lot more useful/interesting linguistic information than the english one. My french isn't that good or I'd translate it. -66.251.24.39 02:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Book Sources

The "Colloquial Kansai Japanese" book is NOT from 2006. It is from 1995! (and Consequently, it somewhat out of date)--220.12.252.13 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Since no one has commented on this, i've made the change. I have the book in front of me and was first published in 1995 by the Charles E Tuttle Publishing Co., Inc. but has been republished a couple times later. ~nobuyuki --220.12.252.13 14:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Kansai-ben in Anime

Reviewing this article, I feel that it should be expanded in two areas:

1.) As noted below, the corresponding article in the French version appears to be far more comprehensive than the page in English. Somebody familiar with all three languages should work on bringing all of this information to the article in English.

I don't think the French article has a lot of substance to it. It has a lot of examples of Kansai-ben (some stereotypical yet not necessarily present in the modern day). In my opinion, the examples from the French article don't need to be in the English article because these types of detailed examples not only differ from region to region in Kansai, but also are likely to change fairly quickly. nobuyuki--220.12.252.13 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

2.) A section should be added citing the use of Kansai Dialect by characters in Anime. I am only a casual viewer of Anime, not by any means an enthusiast, yet I can still think of three such characters immediately: Ayumu Kasuga from Azumanga Daioh; The replacement organ company cyborg from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (season 1, episode 8); and Mitsune Konno from Love Hina. I'm sure that anybody who watches more anime than me can find more examples. What I find amusing is that in all three of the above series, the Kansai Dialect ALWAYS becomes a Texas accent in the English dub. This isn't always a negative aspect of the charcter - in fact I really enjoy Ayumu Kasuga's speaking voice and feel that it really adds an endearing quality to the character lovingly referred to as "Miss Osaka" by the rest of the Azumanga Daioh girls. I just think it's interesting that the American distributors of anime on DVD have decided to create a sterotype like this. It would be great if this article could explain exactly why characters from the Kinki region become Texans in the English version - the episode guide from ADV Films only gives a very vague explanation: "[Texas] shares the business-oriented attitude with Osaka as well as the country image that color both the Southern and Osaka accents". If anybody can expand on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Put that in the anime article if you want, but it doesn't belong here in this article. How American anime distributors describe the situation bears no actuality to the content of this article on a Japanese dialect. Mackan 09:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. How kansai-ben is viewed outside of Kansai is just as significant as how it is viewed within Kansai, it's worthy of a section. Just H^{editor review} 18:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I will have to agree with Mackan here. It may be significant to talk about perceptions of the dialect in other parts of Japan, and we can likely find sources that discuss that, but it is probably not useful to talk about English dubs of anime. That might possibly be an issue for articles on dubbing, or translation, but any discussions pertaining to English are not really about Kansai-ben. Dekimasuよ! 05:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you not agreeing. First of all, WP:A, secondly, do you speak Japanese and how fluent are you? Mackan 18:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to disagree with me not agreeing with you. That's not going to make me agree. And please refrain from personal attacks. I'll put this on the administrator's board and put a disputed tag on the article until then.Just H^{editor review} 20:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, now you are WAY over-reacting. I ask how much Japanese you speak, which is a perfectly legitimate question, don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to label that a personal attack when we're discussing a Japanese dialect?? While I realise it was unnecessary of me to refer to the stuff you put in as "bullshit" (which I honestly think it was, though), I wasn't expecting that you would take it personally as you seemed to be an experienced wiki-editor. My mistake, but that still doesn't make this an edit war. Mackan 20:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

(un-indenting) I don't really think you're doing anybody a favour labelling this an "edit war"... Let's be honest, this is all down to the fact that I called what you wrote "bullshit", please try and rise over that comment instead of taking it personally. What you write is unsourced, and as I've already stated, you're wrong. Why do you then expect me to let it stay until you find a reliable source?? Mackan 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I must beg you to remove the "express has been concerned..."-tag. You're overusing tags to get your will through, and it's rather childish. It does the article no good to be cluttered up with tags as soon as somebody wants something included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mackan (talk • contribs) 22:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

I'll check back in a few days when things have calmed down and we all can continue to improve the article, I hope by then Macken can use his expertise to achieve that end rather than argue with me. Just H^{editor review} 22:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think Wikipedia's attitude towards unsourced edits will have changed in a few days you are wrong. I'm arguing with you because your edits are making the article worse. Mackan 23:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to interject, but I would like to point out that the perception of a dialect of Japanese as "equivalent" to one dialect or another of a separate language is subjective at best, since the phonological, grammatical, and lexical developments and histories (not to mention socioeconomic factors) that characterize any one dialect are unlikely to be replicated with a high degree of commonality between languages. While there are certain points of consensus among certain media (such as the portrayal of Kansai-ben as either Brooklyn or Texan in English dubs of anime), this hardly constitutes a scientific viewpoint. It is merely a way of getting across the notion that a separate dialect is being spoken, and approximating (though not exactly matching) cultural associations such as Manzai / comedy in Kansai-ben. Nonstandard dialects are a problem for any translator, and each one approaches the situation differently; just keep in mind that whatever they do end up using to represent it is only there to give you an idea of Kansai-ben, not to represent it on a one-to-one basis. For what it's worth, a translator could represent Standard Japanese as BBC English, and Kansai-ben as Scouse, or Scots, or even Californian, but that doesn't make such a portrayal a "law" of any sort. --Julian Grybowski 00:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Dekimasuよ! 05:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you touched on the key point -- the portrayal of Kansai-ben as Texan or Brooklyn-ese in animes. I can live with the rest as long as the article discusses how Kansai-ben and its sub-dialects are seen by Japanese speakers (Osaka-ben is apparently brash, Kyoto-ben is apparently lilting, etc.), and that's pretty much already covered. Just H^{editor review} 01:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why did you add it again? Once again, the things you have added are about English translations of Japanese, and have nothing to do directly with Kansai-ben. Also, the external link is not from a reliable source. Dekimasuよ! 04:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section. The consensus is clearly against including it. Please do not add it again.Mackan 07:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, the consensus at worst is unclear, and at best, is clearly for it in my opinion. The translation of Kansai-ben and how it is seen in other cultural contexts is important and notable. Just H 02:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)'

Now you might argue it's unclear, but when I made the comment, the consensus was 3-1 for not including it.Mackan 18:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this section should definitely be in the article. Translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge, as the accent is often a crucial part of the humor and difficult to get that apart to English speaking audiences. As a reference, in the translator's notes for Magical☆Shopping Arcade Abenobashi the translator discusses why they chose to use a Texas accent for the characters. MightyAtom 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't you see how a section like that would be hopelessly US-biased? Should we put long lists in every language's dialectal article listing what they are translated into in different languages? Those who find this interesting are those who are interested in anime, can't you agree that this information would fit much better in an article called "anime dub" or something similar? (with a section on Kansai-ben). Mackan 07:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, not to be needlessly combative, but the fact that "translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge" is not really a reason for including it in the article. Mackan 08:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Dekimasu sums it up well: "It may be significant to talk about perceptions of the dialect in other parts of Japan, and we can likely find sources that discuss that, but it is probably not useful to talk about English dubs of anime. That might possibly be an issue for articles on dubbing, or translation, but any discussions pertaining to English are not really about Kansai-ben."Mackan 08:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Mackan and Dekimasu. The information about "English Dubs" distracts from the focus of the article (which is Kansai-ben in the context and in relation to the standard Japanese language). The trivial information about the convention of using regional US accents like Texas / Brooklyn / etc. belongs in an article more focused on Anime English Translation / Dubbing. --Gar2chan 09:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I can understand that, although I disagree. The challenges of translating/dubbing kansai ben into English is relevant to this article, and a place where many non-Japanese speakers will encounter kansai ben. There is a reference, so that can't be disputed. The fact that it is an English bias isn't really important, as this is the English wikipedia site. Other issues of translating into French would be relevent to the French wikipedia, etc.... If a seperate article on dubbing kansai ben for anime were created, you can bet it would be hit with a merge tag pretty soon. To be honest, the only real reason I can see not to include a section on this would be out of some sort of anti-anime bias. MightyAtom 02:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I do think an English bias is a problem. See WP:NPOV. Although they do not explicitly list linguistical bias (then again it's by no means an exclusive list), I do think dealing only with English translations would be uncompliant with Wiki guidelines. Also, I was suggesting a separate article for anime translations (or just Japanese translations would be fine too), not for "dubbing kansai ben for anime". Mackan 17:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

In that case, the section should be about translation in general, not just about anime. There are lots of things that are translated from Kansai-ben into English (novels, original films, quotes in documentary films, quotes in nonfiction, quotes in newspaper articles, etc.), and it doesn't make sense to focus on anime any more than it makes sense to exclude anime due to bias. If the reference you are referring to is the translator's notes from your post above, I don't have access to that source. The one that was previously included in the article was an off-site Wiki, which isn't checked for accuracy or peer reviewed. Dekimasuよ! 02:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it would definitely be about English in general. There is no reason for it to be anime-specific. MightyAtom 04:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hiya. I created the 'cultural importance' section, and put Template:totally-disputed-section in; hopefully, this'll be a clear indication as to what's under dispute (i.e. not the morphological aspects of the dialects.) In addition: 'analogous' might be a better word than "equivalent". --moof 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Cultural importance"? I really do not think that's an ideal name for that section. Mackan 18:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The issue seems to be the translation of one nation's dialects into another language, in this case English (being English Wiki). This is not an issue exclusive to Kansai-ben, but to any and every dialect in every non-English language that translation is applied to. For example, how are the use of Chinese dialects translated from Chinese films? Also, if a British company translates an Anime, what accent do they use? Welsh? Should that also be mentioned? Making a big deal out of some US companies translating Osaka-ben as Texan or Brooklyn accents seems out of place here. Perhaps a short sentence to mention it, but no more. You would think that any detailed explanation would be included in an article on translation in general, and on dealing with dialects in translation. The translation article mentions dialects in its "problems" section, but it has not been expanded on. Ka-ru 05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This really isn't what you were speaking of exactly, but there is a Category:Fictional Kansai characters Evan1975 03:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Tag

The tag User:Just H has put up reads "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed". What fact on the page are you disputing? Mackan 22:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not any one fact, but the entire article itself, since there has been an edit war recently. If the Kansai-ben in anime section can be placed back without incessant edit warring, I have no fear that the edit warring won't return, and that the tag can go since this is what consensus has found.Just H 02:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is the correct tag. No one seems to be disputing the factual accuracy of the information already in the article. Dekimasuよ! 04:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the neutrality tag might be better. Just H 23:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the spirit behind the tags, but I think a "lacks references" tag is more appropriate. The entire article is bereft of footnotes and in-text citation. Footnotes on the more controversial statements would dramatically improve the article. -- Exitmoose 06:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the current tags. Mackan 17:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

...Yet "Just H" decides to revert them without deeming it necessary to provide any rationale. Mackan 19:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Just H" is a banned user. I suggest we move on and not focus so much on his edits, which seemed to be obsessively linked to anime translation and out-of-scope of the Kansai-ben article. --Gar2chan 05:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Why don't you write about 河内弁/kawachi-ben in Osaka-ben topic?

Additional from a Japanese. You did not write the formal form. As for ‘へん’,　compare‘行きません’ and ‘行きまへん’. I consider ‘行きまへん’ is a S-dropped form of the standerd ‘行きません’. Sorry that I'm not a kansai-ben user. But if I could help, I will. --Oda Mari 10:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 　

There is a paragraph that mentions the polite form: "A frequent occurrence in Kansai-ben is the use of h in place of s in suffices and inflections. Some palatalization of s is apparent in most Kansai speakers, but it seems to have progressed further in morphological suffices than in core vocabulary. This process has produced the Kansai -han for Standard -san, -mahen for -masen, and -mahyo for -mashō, among other examples. In casual speech, the negative verb ending,which is -nai in Standard Japanese, is often expressed with -hen, as in ikahen "not going", which is ikanai in Standard Japanese." But the -mahen form is actually uncommon (except as a joke), don't you think?

I believe the reason that there isn't information on 河内弁 is that we aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject, and perhaps it lacks English-language sources. All that comes to my mind about it is that it's known as one of the strongest dialects. This is the only information about it on the Japanese Wikipedia: "大阪府東部の河内地域の方言。南北でかなり差異があり、北河内地域では北摂地域と同じく、京都弁との類似も見られる。河内弁全体としては以下の特徴がある。 疑問文、あとを受ける肯定文とも最後に使う助詞「か」が、「け」になる。（例文：そうけ？　そうけ。） 「われ」を二人称の意味で用いる。" Dekimasuよ! 04:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, はじめまして。Sorry that I did not notice the mentions. The -mahen form is actually uncommon? What do I think? I have no idea about it. As a standard Japanese speaker, what most irritates me is the kansai-ben 's accent. Especially when someone speaking almost perfect standard, and then he/she puts in a kansai accent noun or two on TV. Like April/sigatu. It's OK if it's a private,personal talk. But on TV not OK. Terrible English, I know. But you know what I mean. It seems to me the accent is the largest difference. --Oda Mari 16:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you're taking a bit too prescriptivist of a tack, but you do hit on a good point: the Japanese represented on television, especially the news, is by and large Standard Japanese. I suppose you could even call it "NHK Japanese" in the way that there's "BBC English." In that respect, hearing an identifying factor that makes one aware of the newscaster's geographic background is probably jarring, because it differs from one's expectations as to what an anchor should sound like.

As for -mahen... not being a native speaker of Japanese, it might not be my place to judge, but in my experience studying in Kyoto, what I usually heard was -masen with the s not always "connecting" with the roof of the mouth. However, I'm not sure if this is a genuine dialectal trait or something that comes about from speaking polite Standard and slipping partway into Kansai-ben on that suffix. My host mother always spoke politely in Standard and informally in Kansai-ben (and was a natural at both), so I can't really be sure. --Julian Grybowski 20:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's interesting. I do something like that with -masen when I speak Japanese (mouth open, se sort of whistled between my tongue and my palate), but I always thought it was a sort of non-native speech impediment. We always have lots of information here, but we're held up by a lack of definitive sources. Dekimasuよ! 02:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It was very interesting to read all those comments above. What I wanted to tell is that when you speak in public, speak 100% kansai-ben or 100% standard. どっちかにしろ！ Media's influence is too powerful. Especially to children whose brain still learning and imprinting Japanese.

The spoken sounds and the written words are not always the same. Sometimes we drop a consonant as in すいません when you have to say すみません/I'm sorry. I hate this sound dropping and I never use the dropping form. Because すいません means different; 吸いません/I don't smoke. It is sad that now a lot of Japanese believe すいません is not only the speaking form but also it's the correct word itself. And we sometimes add a vowel when speaking as in じょうおう/jouou/queen. It should be じょおう/joou/女王. I have to admit I've been always using the vowel-added form and didn't know the difference. I learned it just recently on TV. But the Japanese linguist says this one is OK. I think the dropping and adding can occurs in any language. A lot of American drop c in picture, don't they? When I first heard it I misheard it as pitcher. As for kansai-ben I don't think I can be a good help. Why don't you ask kansai-ben native Wikipedian in Japanese Wikipedia? I found there are many and they proudly declare they are kansai-ben speakers. --Oda Mari 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

"Talk pages are not for general conversation. Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal". I'm sorry, but I fail to see how some of this discussion is relevant to the article. This is not a general discussion board. Mackan 10:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's also try not to bite anyone who's only been here for a few days. The intent was clearly to assist us with the article. Dekimasuよ! 11:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think my comment was much of a "biting". I politely pointed out a Wikipedia policy, and that the discussion was moving a bit off topic. No harm intended and hopefully none taken. Mackan 12:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi MacKan. I'm sorry that I wrote something off topic. Please accept my apology. I know the fact that I'm a newcomer could not be an excuse. I should have known the policy. I'll never do something like this again. Promise. No harm taken. --Oda Mari 14:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

2 corrections, please

1. 1 About the meaning of the standard slang cho. Super or sur- is better than very. Because when girls started to use the word they used it like this. ‘Cho beri ba’(cho very bad) or ‘Cho beri goo’(cho very good). Cho is 超 in kanji. 超音速/supersonic. 超現実主義/surrealism.

1. 2 おおきに is the shortened form of おおきにありがとう/Thank you very much. Not equivalent to ありがとう/arigatou. It is written in a dictionary.

I recommend you to visit a homepage named めざせNATIVE関西人. --Oda Mari 08:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

McDonald's

The following line in the Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases section has some significant grammatical issues:

• makudo (マクド) - Mickey D's ; abbreviation of "Makudonarudo"(McDonald's' Japanese pronunciation), almost non-Kansai Japanese call "makku"(Mac).

I'm not sure if that's supposed to read, "almost all non-Kansai Japanese call McDonald's "makku"(Mac)," or what it's supposed to say. -- Masamunecyrus^(talk)_(contribs) 13:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm the person who wrote "makudo". I'm sorry that you were confused with my poor English...

I wanted to tell you that 'while almost Japanese people call McDonald's "makku", Kansai people call McDonald' "makudo"'.--Kyoww 09:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I changed it to this:

• makudo (マクド) - Mickey D's; abbreviation of "Makudonarudo" (McDonald's' Japanese pronunciation), almost all non-Kansai Japanese refer to McDonald's as, "makku" (Mac).

It still doesn't sound quite encyclopedic, but it works well enough until someone can think of a better way to state it. ^^ -- Masamunecyrus^(talk)_(contribs) 15:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

keigo

This term isn't defined within the article space, making the hole section not clear. It would be nice to also get some citation on perceptions of politeness.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

xx-ben doesn't sound scholarstic

Hi, I feel a bit strange that xx-ben is using to refer to sub-dialect. It goes through commonly, but very colloquial, hence I am not sure if it is appropriate for scientific article which is expected to be on an encyclopedia. Also some part is very unscholatic. For example, Osaka-ben is too vague notion: the dialects in Osaka prefecture are divides five (Downtown, often refered "Semba" dialect, Kawachi dialect, Izumi dialect, Yodo river left bank dialect [or North Settsu dialect] and Yodo river right bank dialect [or Settsu dialect]), and Kobe-ben and one of dialect found in Osaka (Yodo river left bank dialect, commonly called Settsu-ben or Hokusetsu-ben) are considered almost similar by linguists. Also I suspect if there is a confusion of Yodo river left bank dialect, Kobe-ben in its original meaning and Banshu (Harima province) dialect, which were originally spoke in the western part of Kobe city (it belonged to Harima province). Anyway I think this part, Specific dialects, should be rewritten based in academic sources. --Aphaia 20:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Then, I think one the best contribution you could make is to point out those academic sources so editors can evaluate them. Otherwise, your comments are on the sterile side. Or you can introduce some changes yourself making reference to the sources you mention. --Firen Drakendorf 02:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

yaru

I think that "yaru" in "Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases" is wrong. The account says 'in Standard Japanese only used when referring to giving to somebody well "under" the speaker, such as giving food to a dog'. However, in Kansai-ben used when similar situation, too. --Kyoww 12:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Not only though, and that's exactly what it says. I don't think there's any problem with the current explanation.　-- Mackan ^{talk | c} 23:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Personal pronouns

I don't know a lot about Kansai-ben, but I often hear the first-person singular personal pronoun Wai (わい) used by Kansai speakers in TV. Also sometimes Wate (わて) Do you think these should be up here? Evan1975 04:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I wrote these.--Kyoww 06:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't really heard "wai" around Osaka, but I have heard "oi" (plural: "oira"). I suppose if you consider "wai" a dialectal version of "ware," the same may be true of "oi" with respect to "ore," but I have no direct evidence to back this up. --Julian Grybowski 07:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I looked up "oi" and "oira" in "Kamigata Gogen Jiten (Kamigata etymology dictionary)", but I couldn't find these words. --Kyoww 07:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that there should be a separate section for pronouns, anyone agree? I'm pretty new to Wikipedia so I really don't know how to do it correctly... ILuvEire (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Kansai-ben absorbed into colloquial Standard Japanese

I noticed several expressions described as Kansai-ben that I would claim have been largely absorbed into colloquial Standard Japanese. Specifically:

• Omoroi for "interesting"
• Metcha for "very"
• The falling-pitch sentence-final wa used by men (as opposed to the rising-pitch sentence-final wa used by women which is already well-recognized as being universal)

in increasing order of pervasiveness in Standard Japanese, as far as I can gather. This is just my [educated but not scholarly per se] opinion; anyone agree or disagree? Istaro 13:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree your opinon. Primarily, Standard Japanese was birth from fusion of different dialects. For example, "da" "desu" is from Tokyo, "arigato" "ohayo" is from Kansai, "kora!" is from Kagoshima. "omoroi" "metcha" show that Standard Japanese goes on taking over other dialects.--Kyoww 15:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Advertisement

The user language templates of Kansai-ben (Template:User ja-ksb) were finished. If you speak Kansai-ben, let's use the templates in your user page, please.--Kyoww (talk) 11:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

International School

Is there some international school in Japan that officially teach Japanese with Osaka-ben ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.29.99.45 (talk) 12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe nothing, but there must be teachers teaching with their Osaka-ben in unconsciously. Incidentally, not an international school but an university school, there is a teacher who teach the "Kansai-language" formal lecture in Hokkaido University. --Kyoww (talk) 14:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Kana

I think this page should have kana, instead of romaji. Or maybe both? What sort of policy does Wikipedia have on romanization? ILuvEire (talk) 03:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"Zo" in Kansai-ben

The article says this:

The emphatic particles zo and ze heard so often in the mouths of Tokyo men are nowhere to be heard in the Kansai region.

I'm not very experienced with Japanese and certainly not with Kansai-ben, but this Jinnai Tomonori sketch clearly has Jinnai using Kansai-ben and "zo" in the same sentence, at 3:41, when Jinnai says ほんまやらへんぞ. So unless Jinnai's speech is unusual in some way, I wouldn't say that use of "zo" is "nowhere to be found". - furrykef (Talk at me) 22:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I amended that part.--Kyoww (talk) 03:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Potential form of verbs

Nothing seems to be written about the potential form of verbs yet. In Osaka, at least, I see a strong tendency towards treating all potential forms of verbs the same, whether ichidan or godan: verb stem + "-(r)eru" for the affirmative, and the passive form (verb stem + "-(r)arehen") for the negative. For example:

• taberu > tabereru, tabehen > taberarehen (standard "taberareru", "taberarenai")
• deru > dereru, dēhen > derarehen (standard "derareru", "derarenai")
• hairu > haireru, hairahen > hairarehen (standard "haireru", "hairenai")
• iku > ikeru, ikehen > ikarehen (standard "ikeru", "ikenai")

etc.

Ichidan verbs ending in "-seru" ("miseru" plus all causative verbs) also appear to have gained almost a special verb paradigm, combining ichidan and godan characteristics (and at times imperfectly resembling archaic lower nidan verbs), but I can't explain very well. (causative verbs are "-(s)asu" in terminal form but "miseru" is as Standard; "-te" form changes from "-sete" to "-shite", e.g. "mishite" for "misete", "sashite" for "sasete")

I would appreciate thoughts on incorporating such into the article.

--Julian Grybowski (talk) 13:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your notice. I wrote about these forms of verbs. --Kyoww (talk) 03:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Use of "nen" particle

I've attempted to better explain the use of "nen" in Kansai-ben through the use of a chart. Complicating matters are disagreements among my students and my older colleagues as to what is "correct" (generational divide) and my frame of reference, which is Osaka dialect and mainly female speakers. Input and corrections / clarifications below would be welcome before I try and put it on the main article page. --Julian Grybowski (talk) 04:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Contextual use of "nen" particle

	declarative	echo / simple interrogative	emphatic interrogative
verb (present)	Benkyō sun nen.	Benkyō suru n (ya)?	Nani sun nen?!
verb (progressive)	Benkyō shiten nen.	Benkyō shiteru n (ya)?	Nani shiten nen?!
verb (past)	Benkyō shiten.	Benkyō shita n (ya)?	Nani shiten?!
noun + "ya"	Se ya nen.	Sō nan (ya)?	Donai ya nen?!

The simple interrogative n? is also a change of no (ka)? and has a somewhat feminine variation non?. N and non are not only used as interrogative particle but also used as declarative particle (juntaijoshi); for example, Sō nan? Sō nan. ("Is it?" "Yes, it is."). Non is also used as a phrasal particle as well as no; for example, Kono pen dare non? Watashi non. ("Whose pen is this?" "It's mine.").--Kyoww (talk) 03:32, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Common Kansai-ben - "do"?

I saw the "do" prefix mentioned in the common word list - but isn't it standard dialect/standard slang? ドスケベ for example? 126.59.94.251 (talk) 15:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, do in ドスケベ is same as "do" prefix mentioned in the list. The "do" prefix was developed in Edo period Kansai-ben and introduced into Tokyo in the 20th century. See also this Japanese internet dictionary page.--Kyoww (talk) 07:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's interesting! But that means there's really just one usage of "do" that is exclusive to the Kansai dialect (while "do-mannaka" is (has become?) standard dialect), so I don't think it really should be included in that list. Not because it isn't Kansai dialect (which it obviously is), but because the divergence between the standard Japanese "do" and the dialectal "do" is too small to make it interesting enough to add to the list. 126.59.94.251 (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

yoroshuu gozansu ka?

If you've seen the movie "rabukon" maybe you remember the hilarious karaoke scene featuring the song of one (imaginary?) rapper called "umibouzu".

That song (that no one likes except for the two main characters, "risa" and "ootani") is called "yoroshuu gozansu ka?".

But what does the title mean? Is this some dialect for "yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?"?

Thanks.

Contact Basemetal here 05:14, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, yoroshuu gozansu ka? is same to yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?. gozansu is a variety of gozaimasu used in Edo period and early Meiji period. See this page (Japanese) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/78469/m0u/ --Kyoww (talk) 13:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

ありがとう ござんした！ :-) Contact Basemetal here 13:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Jay Rubin ain't all that

For example, many English language adaptations of manga and anime use Southern American English as a counterpart of Kansai dialect, although Kansai dialect does not usually fit the "bumpkin" image as well as the Southern American English does

Jay Rubin, I'm looking at you.

You have made a dog's dinner out of translating Murakami's アイロンのある風景 using this trope. You even contradict yourself in the exact same section as Ibaraki folk are tarred with the same brush (ie, being "bumpkins"). I understand that you have to translate more than just individual words and sentences, but your attempt at translating 関西弁 here must be recorded as an abject failure, on all levels. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.11.65.153 (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Counterintuitive transliterations

Virtually all instances of "ya" are given as "ja"; whatever the transliteration style used here (one with which I am unfamiliar), this is not a representation of the pronunciation that the layman, looking at this article, will be likely to apprehend. Perhaps alongside the no-doubt correct- but less-accessible to those who are not linguists- current transliteration system a general representation of how the word is pronounced ought to be provided? For example the section ""好きやねん" /sukija neN/ "I love you" becomes '好っきゃねん' /suQkja neN/" might incorporate in the first instance "suki ya nen" (spaced as preferred/ per consensus) and in the second "sukkya nen" (the latter doubling of the consonant is generally that used in English as far as I've seen to represent the glottal stop of っ in this context).

One reason for the above consideration being worthwhile is other sections- for example "The emphasis or tag question particle jan ka in the casual speech of Kanto changes to yan ka in Kansai. Yan ka has some variations, such as a masculine variation yan ke (in some areas, but yan ke is also used by women) and a shortened variation yan, just like jan in Kanto. Jan ka and jan are used only in informal speech, but yan ka and yan can be used with formal forms like sugoi desu yan! ("It is great!"). Youngsters often use yan naa, the combination of yan and naa for tag question."- drawing a clear distinction between the "j" and "y" sounds, which might generate confusion for the uninitiated reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.195.208 (talk) 04:12, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

The IPA isn't transliteration, it's transcription. IPA notice added in the infobox, if that's any consolation. Nardog (talk) 04:19, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I'll defer to you on the point, but have to observe I haven't seen the IPA written in this form before; at any rate for my money it doesn't necessarily help the average article reader, but it's not a point I feel it necessary to persist in arguing, merely an impartial observation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.195.208 (talk) 18:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)