Talk:Jahaz Haveli

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jahaz Haveli. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100210094003/http://fatehgarhsahib.nic.in/html/shrines.htm to http://fatehgarhsahib.nic.in/html/shrines.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:57, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Todar Mal: Khatri or Jain?

There are significant references that mention that Diwan Todar Mal was a Jain:

• https://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040102/punjab1.htm The forgotten Diwan of Sirhind, Surinder Bhardwaj, The Tribune, January 2, 2004
• https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/an-ancient-brotherhood/cid/578657 AN ANCIENT BROTHERHOOD, Khushwant Singh, 7.11.09

Please note that Khushwant Sing writes: "On the site of the cremation at Fatehgarh Sahib now stands the Gurdwara Jyoti Sarup. A large hall of this gurdwara honours the builder by being named after him — Diwan Todar Mal Jain Yadagiri Hall."

The article cited in the current article ( "End caste-based reservations". The Tribune. 28 September 2008. Retrieved 20 March 2018.) does not mention that he was a Khatri. This and the other citation (End caste-based reservations’) mention Aggarwal Mahasabha's support for the haveli, which supports Todar Mal being a Jain, since many of the Jains in Punjab are Aggarwal.

Note that Todar Mal was a rather common name. The Raja Todarmal who was a courtier under Akbar was indeed a Khatri (not a Kayasth or an Agrawal), but he was a different Todar Mal. Malaiya (talk) 00:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

The article states "Todar Mal descendants moved from Sirhind to Ludhaina. The present descendants known as Mandals are from sub caste of Sood and are Kshatriyas. Both Todar Mal's in history are from the same family. The mandal family records are available in Haridwar since 16th century." It should be noted that Raja Todar Mal, Akbar's courtier, was a Khatri and not a Sood. The two communities are somewhat similar but completely distinct. Malaiya (talk) 23:14, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Which "Todar Mal"?

There seems to be some dispute as to which "Todar Mal" this structure is associated with.

• Todar Mal - (1 January 1500 – 8 November 1589) - finance minister associated with the Mughal empire
• Pandit Todarmal - (1719–1766) - a Jain scholar

Some sources:

• • Hindustantimes: "Diwan Todar Mal, who defied the Mughals...The Jahaz Haveli, believed to be a 17th century structure"
  • Indian Express: "17th century structure...is believed to have been the residence of Diwan Todar Mal. A Hindu trader, Todar Mal had defied Mughals to cremate Zorawar Singh (8) and Fateh Singh (6), the two youngest sons of tenth Sikh master, Guru Gobind Singh."
  • Hindustan Times: "The court was told that Todar Mal was a 17th century local businessman of Sirhind. He was a Diwan in the court of Nawab Wazir Khan, the governor of Sirhind, under Mughal Empire. Diwan Todar Mal had bought a small piece of land for cremating bodies of Mata Gujri, the mother, and Sahibzada Zorawar Singh and Baba Fateh Singh, the two younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh in 1704, by paying an exorbitant price to the owner of the land."
  • Tribune India: "Diwan Todar Mal Jain of Sirhind, a local businessman, was an ardent follower of the Sikh Gurus. His richness could be gauged from his lavish haveli “Jahaz Mahal”. Constructed just outside the Mughal Governor Nawab Wazir Khan’s palace, Diwan Todar Mal’s haveli"'
• Though the last source includes "Jain" in his name, the sources otherwise seem to suggest that the structure is associated with Todar Mal, not Pandit Todarmal. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
• The sources correctly suggests Todarmal Jain The forgotten Diwan of Sirhind, Todarmal Jain, Sikhwiki, Todarmal Jain Sikhizm, Todarmal Jain, Navjagaran India — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsbhansali (talk • contribs) 18:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Considering the details and time period in those sources, it doesn't appear that Wikipedia has an article for that specific Todar Mal. Neither of the two articles appear to be the 17th century Hindu trader who was a Diwan in the court of Nawab Wazir Khan. Schazjmd (talk) 19:08, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the best explanation so far. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 22:15, 28 August 2022 (UTC)