Talk:Islamic extremism in the United States

Expert Requests

US Islamic Extremism distinct from Islamic Fundamentalism and/or Jihadism?

The introductory paragraph's logic is confusing. Here, Islamic extremism is defined as Islamic fundamentalism, which has its own page, with an added potential for Jihadism, which also has its own page. Further, a "non-violent" section is also included in this article, which undercuts the definitional idea that some violent tendency is what distinguishes this topic from just "fundamentalism."

An expert could help to help determine whether this article describes a distinct topic or instead needs to be about Islamic fundamentalism in the U.S. or Jihadism in the U.S., with appropriate deletions and mergers. AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Wahhabism and other foreign extremist influence in U.S. Islam

(See also the "POV of Non-violent extremism section" talk below)

An expert on Islam could help to add an accurate and more balanced description of the historical and present relationship between foreign radical and fundamentalist movement in Islam and the general character of Islamic teachings in the United States. This will also preferably be moved to a renamed section, as "non-violent extremism" does not seem to be the proper heading for this material.

If Islamic extremism is distinct from Islamic Fundamentalism, Islamism, Jihadism, and violent extremism, then an expert on Islam could help to provide a description of non-violent extremism.AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Distinguishing violent extremism from terrorism

While there is obviously a lot of trouble with defining terrorism on WP or elsewhere, there is a consensus that not all organized violence is terrorism (e.g., conventional warfare). The "violent extremism" header intro section slips seamlessly between the general idea that Islamic extremism incorporates justifications of violence and the idea that Islamic extremists are terrorists, which implies support for a specific kind of violence.

An expert on Islam or counterterrorism could help to describe, if possible, categories of violent Islamic struggle that do not -- for either moral or strategic reasons -- condone or carry out attacks against civilians or other types of operations generally agreed to be "terroristic." Failing that, the section should at a minimum be relabeled something like "terrorist ideology in U.S. Islamic extremism" to avoid the implication that all Islamic extremist violence is terrorism.AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

"Mosques" subsection and NAIT

Firstly, the content of the current "mosques" subsection under the "violent" heading is odd. It does not actually address violence promoted through mosques directly but rather expands on the same type of test that is in the "non-violent" header: that the MB funds and influences a number of mosques in the U.S. It also closes with a strange and unsourced statement about the relationship between religious liberty in the U.S. and mosques' ability to spread extremism.

An expert on U.S. Islam could help to clarify information in this article that concerns the NAIT, hopefully supplementing with inforomation from its WP article. This expertise should also help to decide whether this subtopic belongs under the "violent" header or not.

An expert on counterterror could help to review the article's claim that there is "no way to monitor activity" in mosques, since there have certainly been a large number of mosque-infiltration operations conducted by U.S. law enforcement since 9/11.

An expert on religious freedom law could help to provide information about the legality of a mosque spreading "extremism". The current construction -- that a mosque "can" -- is unclear in its meaning and seems dependent on the meaning of the vague term "extremism".AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

U.S. Government response

This section describes what are on face U.S. government efforts to counter violent "ideological" extremism in general as being specifically tailored to Islamic extremism, which is not currently supported by the body text.

An expert on U.S. counterterror or recent history could help by providing good secondary sources explaining the way in which these programs were designed or implemented specifically as a response to Islamic extremism and not either ideological radicalization in general or terrorism in general. AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

American Muslim community response

This section has problems with large omissions/due weight and with its contribution to a generally non-neutral POV in the article. It currently reads, particularly in the context of what is in the "non-violent extremism" header and the "mosques" subheader, as a mentioning of two small voices crying out in a sea of extremist U.S. Islamic institutions.

An expert on U.S. Islam could help by identifying and bringing to the forefront those institutions and sources that are genuinely the most influential and reflective of mainstream U.S. Muslim thought. This expertise could also help to show in the community response section a more accurate picture of the balance between those who reject and those who support extremism.AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

American Muslims participating in Jihad

updated the section with reference about two American Youth who joined ISIS Rim sim (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

POV of Non-violent extremism section

I am concerned that the non-violent extremism section seems dedicated to advancing the idea that extremist ideology is pervasive in the practice of Islam in the United States. This is problematic because (1) it seems not to stem from a neutral point of view, and the general consensus on U.S. Islam tends to be that it is moderate; and (2) the section neglects to actually describe the character of non-violent Islamic extremism. AdamColligan (talk) 01:48, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I would also like to suggest that this material be moved to a renamed section that is something like "influence of global fundamentalist movements." It may also need to be under a new, expanded "mosques" section.AdamColligan (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of terror plots/attacks list: suggest replacement with a link

This article purports to be a distinct treatment of extremism, separate from either the idea of terrorism or the history of terrorism. I am suggesting that this section be replaced with a link to the list of terrorist attacks with Islamic motivations/goals in the article Terrorism_in_the_United_States.

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Requested move 2 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. After being relisted, there is still no obvious consensus supporting this move. (closed by a page mover) (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:52, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

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Jihadist extremism in the United States → Islamism in the United States – This article suffers from many problems, some of which AdamColligan pointed out. Another thing that's wrong about it is the title. "Jihadist extremism" is a rather ridiculous intensification of Jihadism which is already a Western neologism referring to Jihad with the sword. As long as we don't have a solid ground about Islamism (political Islam) and/or Islamic fundamentalism (religious fundamentalism) in the United States, this article will always be disconnected from the realities, suggesting the exceptional would be normality within Islamic communities in the U.S. I therefore propose renaming and expanding scope to Islamism in the United States, thereby turning it into the main article of the existing Category:Islamism in the United States. IMHO this change of scope is the only way to getting a grip on the article. Otherwise the article really needs to be renominated for deletion. -- PanchoS (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Oppose this particular name, because an Islamist is someone who practices Islam, not necessarily someone with extremist views, and this name gives an incorrect interpretation of the word. Gluons12 ^talk 22:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC).

@Gluons12: That is not correct. An Islamist is defined by the Oxford dictionary as "An advocate or supporter of Islamic militancy or fundamentalism". Someone who simply practices Islam is a Muslim. AusLondonder (talk) 11:55, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

There are conflicting definitions of Islamism. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines Islamism first as "the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam" or second in a way more like the one you described. In contrast, the word Jihadism has only one meaning. Gluons12 ^talk 00:15, 13 June 2016 (UTC).

• Support Per our definition of Islamism, it is "an Islamic revival movement often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt "to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life." Islamism favors the reordering of government and society in accordance with the Shari'a.The different Islamist movements have been described as "oscillating between two poles": at one end is a strategy of Islamization of society through state power seized by revolution or invasion; at the other "reformist" pole Islamists work to Islamize society gradually "from the bottom up"" It is a major political ideology. Jihadism is used to describe "Islamist militant movements", so it is not an independent ideology. Extremism is redundant here, as there is no moderate Jihadism. Dimadick (talk) 17:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support Title is confusing. Seems to be related to the obsession of the American far-right with the word "jihad". AusLondonder (talk) 11:55, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Islamism is a much broader topic. This article is self-contained and well sourced. Jason from nyc (talk) 20:56, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move to "Islamism, since that implies Jihadism is a universal tenet of Islam. Support a move to something like "Islamic Extremism in the United States". DaltonCastle (talk) 22:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Islamism does not imply Jihadism is a universal tenet of Islam. Islamism defined by the Oxford dictionary as "Islamic militancy or fundamentalism.". AusLondonder (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

Tone of the article

A lot of phrases put into the passive tone are opinions stated as fact. For example, "Islamic extremism within the United States is more of a concern." Ascribe the opinion to those who have it (be they national security advisers, politicians, law enforcement spokespeople, etc.) I changed some wording in the lede, but there is a long way to go to getting this article up to encyclopedic standards. jps (talk) 16:33, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move

Jihadist extremism in the United States → Islamic extremism in the United States –

I have read this talkpage and understand that something similar was discussed some years ago, but the article titles should be in conformity with other wikipedia pages. Islamism in the United Kingdom Islamism in the Gaza Strip Islamism and Islamic terrorism in the Balkans should either be changed or this article title should be changed. Jihadism is a also a neologism. While Islamism may also be one, jihadism is a much less common one. This article has also a section on Non-violent Islamic extremism, which needs to be removed in an article with the title Jihadist extremism (unless jihadist includes the greater Jihad concept of the Sufis, which is spiritual struggle. But this is not made clear in the article.). Other sections talk more about extremist versions of Islam than of Jihadism. --Vimaljoseph34260 (talk) 07:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Hazmal04 edits

False information

I’m adding this discussion to inform others that I have had to create an account and edit this page as it contained a concerning amount false information. This is not acceptable as it is spreading misinformation. However, it appears that my corrections have been ‘undone’. It is unacceptable that someone/people are trying to distort people’s views and spread false information.

The previous page perpetuated the false notion of Islam being peaceful, and Islamic terrorism being separate from, and banned in, Islam. This is not true. Jihad (world conquest, invading land and imposing Islam on it’s inhabitants, is a fundamental part of Islam. It is instructed in Islamic texts. References can be provided if necessary.

It seems like this page’s original author did not know about Islam or was lying. I ask an expert on Islam, can assure that my editing of the page has corrected it to make it truthful. I have not looked at the references however, so I do not know if they are truthful. Hazmal04 (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Using the word ‘Jihadism’ rather than saying ‘Islamic terrorism’

It seems odd that Islamic terrorism is being referred to as ‘Jihadism’ rather than ‘Islamic terrorism’. To make it more understandable for those who do not know what Jihad is, why not just call it ‘Islamic terrorism’. It seems that there may be a motivation to try to imply that Islamic terrorism or Jihadism is entirely different to Islam, which is wrong. Hazmal04 (talk) 19:10, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Response

Hazmal04, your edits to the article have been reverted by me and another editor. They were very biased and do not accord with Wikipedia editing principles. Wikipedia is based on a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), the use of reliable (WP:RSS) and consensus between editors. Please refrain from editing until you can follow these principles. Bondegezou (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2021 (UTC)